The basic breadcrumbs to follow when mulling consciousness are as follows (1) that which is the object of awareness, and the subject, those are two separate entities (Corollary: you never have 100% perfect knowledge of the object of awareness- see Shannon’s work on information theory. You are, however, 100% certain of the sentience of the subject. If you doubt this, see, as an example, Galen Strawson’s response to Dannet) (2) Just as a paper with a drawing upon it is unaware of the art, similarly the brain, with signals in it is unaware of those signals. In every consciousness scenario, there is the gyey-gyan-gyatr triad, the known, the knowledge, and the knower. An analyte, a signal, and a spectrum can be corresponding models from the insentient world. The act of awareness is quite another from the gyey-gyan-gyatr triad. This leads to (3) (Clarification: reductionists need to note here the fundamental difference between knowledge and awareness. Vedanta defines information, knowledge, object, subject, and awareness, as also mind and brain really clearly. This entire show, “Mind body problem”, will do well to adopt SOME sensical basic definitions. Otherwise, every interlocutor creates their own confabulated taxonomy and nomenclature and makes all manner of assertions. Will you have a discussion on reproduction with “sperm” open for definition? Ridiculous.) (3) Consciousness of the object is mediated by mind, where mind is described quite clearly as a physical but subtle entity. It can reflect consciousness. It can take the shape of the object that is being thought of. You have to given them credit for apprehending and bridging the “explanatory gap”. In (4) they address the fact that the non material Ātmā has just been said to reflect in pre-material (and physical) mind (4) As Kant (Emmanuel) will say, when we apprehend (say) a pencil, we know there is an object that we are apprehending. However, what exactly the ding an sich is we never may know. Vedanta takes a step further. It states that not only is the apprehended pencil not independent of our apparatus of apprehension but, and this is key, perceived reality is the projection, Mirage like, of Ātmā upon Ātmā. … we are now into the thicket of Vedanata. Let us underline the key points made. One, that the observer and the observer are essentially different. Second, mind is a pre-material entity, that bridges the gross (empirical) universe and the fundament of awareness. Three, consciousness is beyond the mere recorded signal resulting from the detection of an analyte, it is a state that points to the non duality of the observed from the subject. Why this is important is this. We have effectively argued that of Consciousness there cannot be a theory. Why? A theory is of the form, “that, ergo this”. It is about causes. Vedanta is telling us that the nonseparation of cause and effect is what is consciousness.
It sounds like you are talking about the 4th dimension with our limited senses, we need to develop the live experience in our consciousness of the 4th... dimension ...just my tough.. Greatest discussion . Thank you for sharing your knowledge I appreciate enormously, make me feel I'm not alone...
‘Thought’, ‘mind’, ‘intelligence’, ‘cognition’, ‘understanding’ & ‘consciousness’ are all information-related phenomena and it is not difficult to show that one of the principal reasons we have not so far come to any good, proper & fully verifiable understanding of these otherwise greatly sought-after yet still highly mysterious phenomena is due in great part to the simple fact that we do not presently also have a good & proper, fully verifiable understanding of ‘information’ itself. Although I have personally had the (dubious) fortune of having been able to figure out ‘information’s’ correct (& fully verifiable) ontological identity - plus a full science of the phenomenon to boot - and although I’m not going to divulge its formalistic definition here in this introductory note (without which formalistic definition it is not possible to establish a full & accurate science of the phenomenon, but with it it is) nevertheless I can assure you that with it in hand - that is, with ‘information’s’ correct ontological identity within one’s investigative arsenal (along with a full science thereof also), the exercise of (verifiably) determining the ontological identities of all of the other directly information-related phenomena such as ‘thought’, ‘mind’, ‘cognition’, ‘intelligence’, ‘learning’, ‘understanding’, ‘sentience’, ‘consciousness’ & ‘self-consciousness’ (to far less than exhaust the list) (along with an accompanying science of each also), becomes one of no great difficulty. A full science of any one particular phenomenon will include understandings, specifications & quantifications of such things as its nature (its ontological identity), its standing (in the existential hierarchy), its role, function, varieties, distribution, incidences, properties/extensions/capacities/capabilities, usages, handling &/or operational amenabilities, & its typical life history (its creation through to its dissolution/erasure). Indeed, once both ‘information’s’ correct ontological identity is known, along with a full science thereof, much clarifying light is thrown upon essentially all of the other elements of reality - space, time, matter, energy…. ‘life, the universe & everything’ …. ‘The universe’ ? Turns out we live in a (verifiably) panpsychic universe, that is to say, in one in which each & every single, individual, discrete & separate, autopoietic or non-autopoietic, but all bounded, all Markovian-blanketed, increments of hard, solid matter possesses some quite certain, fully measurable, albeit highly varying, never zero & in some (many) increments of matter, extremely small in comparison to our own - & just as easily measured - sentience or consciousness, the latter (consciousness) exists as we ourselves know it, exclusively under certain, well defined conditions & circumstances. ‘As we know it’ ? As does any cognitively self-conscious aware entity know whatever it knows… Not so incidentally there exists no dearth of homunculi in a pansychic universe as each & every single, individual increment of solid matter has some real (& fully measurable) sentience-come-consciousness inside it. That which any increment of (bounded) solid material ‘sees’, ‘hears’, ‘touches’, ‘tastes’, ‘smells’ simple depends on how many senses it has. Although they are ‘perfectly sentient’ in their own very limited way the rocks & stones beneath our feet, the chairs & sofas on which we sit have many orders of magnitude fewer senses than have we …… Once one recognises ‘information’s’ correct ontological identity it becomes immediately & fully verifiably clear that (i) computer digits are not ‘information’, & (ii) no mental phenomena such as ‘thought’, ‘mind’, ‘intelligence’, ‘cognition’, ‘understanding’ & ‘consciousness’ is computationally tractable. The very different kinds of ‘machines’ - systems, gadgets, entities - which are capable of ‘thinking’ also becomes clear, which particular understanding eventually leads to the additional understanding of exactly that which consciousness itself is …. Once one recognises ‘information’s’ correct ontological identity, no especial difficulty attends the task of identifying, classifying, tracking & tracing any kind & amount of the phenomenon where- & whenever any of it exists here in our Universe, including any of it being operated on in our own brains. Which particular exercise is that which enables the identification of, firstly, where in our brains consciousness resides, & secondly, the identity & function of the particular component of our thinking apparatus which resides there…..& from there ‘consciousness’ itself can be identified & understood…. & much more too ! Isn’t it amazing that no rigorous - & fully verifiable - definition of ‘information’ exists ?? Indeed, no one seems to have even noticed ….. Cheers ….
The place to begin with physicalism/realism/naturalism versus any supernatural belief is that every individual human in truth only knows what they are imagining in response to what their subconscious mind/body presents to them as sensed information about the existence that individual human resides in. For all we really know, in that sense, you might be a brain in a vat living your life in a virtual reality and everything you think is real is a made up virtual reality being presented to you. So scientifically what we consider physicalism/realism/naturalism is the shared imagining that we can prove to each other is the same, where it does not matter what difference of beliefs there are, that common proven thing that is the same for everyone, that is physical, that is real, that is natural. Thus, that solid wood door which is closed is really there for everyone. Someone who claims they can walk through the door without opening it is not able to prove that, but instead we can prove that no one can walk through that closed door. So far science has not found any scientifically provable evidence of anything outside physicalism/realism/naturalism. So, a big question is whether or not you can explain within reason everything we see, including consciousness, with what is within physicalism/realism/naturalism. The answer is "Of Course". Now, some people don't quite understand what matter really is. Matter is energy, they are not separate things. Matter/energy vibrates, moves, and changes. A region of vibrating matter/energy which is vibrating has ripples that extend out away from it, theoretically to infinity, with no true clear cutoff, but the magnitude of that vibration decreases with distance and thus at boundaries we can clearly define the effective vibration ends. Thus, we can have molecules, atoms, protons, quarks, and such. Everything, literally without exception, everything is made up of this matter/energy, which most likely within the probabilities we find within science is made up of elementary particles following the Laws of Nature which we try to predict and understand through our made up imagined Laws of Physics. Information is a property of matter/energy moving around in some pattern. Information is not separate from matter/energy. It is a property of matter/energy. It is not possible to have information without matter/energy. It is not possible for matter/energy to exist without also having information. They are not divisible where you can have information without matter/energy or have matter/energy without information. Now, the next point I want to make is that science is now overwhelmingly showing that all life as we know it from viroids to viruses to bacteria to fungus to plants to animals and to humans the most important human species is all intelligent, conscious, and aware. Further, the type of intelligence is a swarm intelligence for all life as we know it. Further, the leading edges of more complex and advanced "Swarm Intelligence" comes from an existing swarm intelligence which actively intelligently evolves itself in combination with random events which occur and having to survive within the envelope of natural selection in order to keep evolving. Now, understand what the real definition of consciousness is. Consciousness is an intelligent system being actively aware of something over which that intelligent system is applying some of its intelligence. Any active intelligent system will be aware of something for which it is conscious of. This is really very simple and straight forward. Really what we get into discussions and debates about with relation to consciousness is not really about what consciousness is, but about what intelligence is and why intelligence is the way that it is, why does intelligence exist, why is our self-aware conscious mind which is a swarm intelligence like it is, and why is our "QUALIA" of self-aware consciousness like it is. Now, the building blocks of viroid and virus swarm intelligence is FUNDAMENTAL to our higher brain processes. That swarm intelligence is a base pyramid of swarm intelligence upon which our minds are built upon and work. RNA, DNA, and protein swarm intelligence is very active inside every single cell within our body, such that every single cell is an individual swarm intelligence. Bacterial swarm intelligence is used within our cells too, as a building block. Point being, understanding that viruses are intelligent and conscious is a first step to better understanding how our intelligence and consciousness work. Similarly, how bacteria swarm intelligence works, how it is intelligent and conscious, is another step to better understanding how our intelligence and consciousness work. Then understanding how the intelligence of plants work, even though we are animal not plant, helps to understand, because plants are intelligent and conscious. Learning how the swarm intelligence of all animals from the simplest animal with no neurological system, to animals with neurological systems but no brains, to animals with brains as they become increasingly complex and advanced until we get to human swarm minds will all help us better understand our own minds. Realize that we are inside our local to us in space-time Technological Singularity, where by the time we pass through this surge in the rate of scientific and technological development we will have mastered nanotech cybernetics allowing us to alter all our existing cells into cybernetic cells giving us 100% access to our full minds/bodies. Within 50 to 200 years humans will begin to cease to be human because we are going through a natural 100% predictable evolutionary leap to our next stage of development. When we master this technology we will create Artificial General Super Intelligent Brain (AGSIB) technology which we will be able to move full human minds into and out of. We will be able to create nanotech cybernetic grown custom designed bodies we can wear like clothing. But, our minds will still 100% be made up of a swarm intelligent system of matter/energy, which is physical, which is real, which is natural. Now, science is not yet overwhelming supporting the following, so the following is a scientific hypothesis, but I believe it will eventually be found to be scientific fact. > Thus, all we are is a bounded swarm of elementary particles which have learned over the past 13.7+ billion years how become the intelligence we are today and we are going to continue learning to become an intelligence so vastly more complex and advanced than we are today that it is not really possible for us to comprehend what we are evolving into. But... all this is 100% natural, 100% physical matter/energy, and 100% real. Now, that does not mean that we have no illusions. That does not mean there is no imaginary things. But, even those imaginary things have a real existence of being information made up of matter/energy forming the patterns of what is imagined. In the following video I get into this point as well as discussing why we have free will. Free Will and the Human Swarm Mind Post 1 : Musings From The John 00 : 2023-09-18 czcams.com/video/nUsjnOu9qXQ/video.htmlsi=u2X9bEiyJcxr-hF-
Mitochondria is in control of everything 😂 We are simply portals for them for time travel.. Consciousness manifests fron two or more entities to communicate?
THANKS FOR WATCHING!
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The key question that any theory of consciousness must answer is: How do minds interact such that the conversation itself can occur?
Because our 'individual' minds are all part of and connected to the same 'human' consciousness
The basic breadcrumbs to follow when mulling consciousness are as follows
(1) that which is the object of awareness, and the subject, those are two separate entities
(Corollary: you never have 100% perfect knowledge of the object of awareness- see Shannon’s work on information theory. You are, however, 100% certain of the sentience of the subject. If you doubt this, see, as an example, Galen Strawson’s response to Dannet)
(2) Just as a paper with a drawing upon it is unaware of the art, similarly the brain, with signals in it is unaware of those signals. In every consciousness scenario, there is the gyey-gyan-gyatr triad, the known, the knowledge, and the knower. An analyte, a signal, and a spectrum can be corresponding models from the insentient world. The act of awareness is quite another from the gyey-gyan-gyatr triad. This leads to (3)
(Clarification: reductionists need to note here the fundamental difference between knowledge and awareness. Vedanta defines information, knowledge, object, subject, and awareness, as also mind and brain really clearly. This entire show, “Mind body problem”, will do well to adopt SOME sensical basic definitions. Otherwise, every interlocutor creates their own confabulated taxonomy and nomenclature and makes all manner of assertions. Will you have a discussion on reproduction with “sperm” open for definition? Ridiculous.)
(3) Consciousness of the object is mediated by mind, where mind is described quite clearly as a physical but subtle entity. It can reflect consciousness. It can take the shape of the object that is being thought of. You have to given them credit for apprehending and bridging the “explanatory gap”. In (4) they address the fact that the non material Ātmā has just been said to reflect in pre-material (and physical) mind
(4) As Kant (Emmanuel) will say, when we apprehend (say) a pencil, we know there is an object that we are apprehending. However, what exactly the ding an sich is we never may know. Vedanta takes a step further. It states that not only is the apprehended pencil not independent of our apparatus of apprehension but, and this is key, perceived reality is the projection, Mirage like, of Ātmā upon Ātmā.
… we are now into the thicket of Vedanata. Let us underline the key points made.
One, that the observer and the observer are essentially different.
Second, mind is a pre-material entity, that bridges the gross (empirical) universe and the fundament of awareness.
Three, consciousness is beyond the mere recorded signal resulting from the detection of an analyte, it is a state that points to the non duality of the observed from the subject.
Why this is important is this. We have effectively argued that of Consciousness there cannot be a theory. Why? A theory is of the form, “that, ergo this”. It is about causes. Vedanta is telling us that the nonseparation of cause and effect is what is consciousness.
It sounds like you are talking about the 4th dimension with our limited senses, we need to develop the live experience in our consciousness of the 4th... dimension ...just my tough..
Greatest discussion . Thank you for sharing your knowledge I appreciate enormously, make me feel I'm not alone...
Thank you! You're not alone.💙🙏🏽
‘Thought’, ‘mind’, ‘intelligence’, ‘cognition’, ‘understanding’ & ‘consciousness’ are all information-related phenomena and it is not difficult to show that one of the principal reasons we have not so far come to any good, proper & fully verifiable understanding of these otherwise greatly sought-after yet still highly mysterious phenomena is due in great part to the simple fact that we do not presently also have a good & proper, fully verifiable understanding of ‘information’ itself.
Although I have personally had the (dubious) fortune of having been able to figure out ‘information’s’ correct (& fully verifiable) ontological identity - plus a full science of the phenomenon to boot - and although I’m not going to divulge its formalistic definition here in this introductory note (without which formalistic definition it is not possible to establish a full & accurate science of the phenomenon, but with it it is) nevertheless I can assure you that with it in hand - that is, with ‘information’s’ correct ontological identity within one’s investigative arsenal (along with a full science thereof also), the exercise of (verifiably) determining the ontological identities of all of the other directly information-related phenomena such as ‘thought’, ‘mind’, ‘cognition’, ‘intelligence’, ‘learning’, ‘understanding’, ‘sentience’, ‘consciousness’ & ‘self-consciousness’ (to far less than exhaust the list) (along with an accompanying science of each also), becomes one of no great difficulty.
A full science of any one particular phenomenon will include understandings, specifications & quantifications of such things as its nature (its ontological identity), its standing (in the existential hierarchy), its role, function, varieties, distribution, incidences, properties/extensions/capacities/capabilities, usages, handling &/or operational amenabilities, & its typical life history (its creation through to its dissolution/erasure).
Indeed, once both ‘information’s’ correct ontological identity is known, along with a full science thereof, much clarifying light is thrown upon essentially all of the other elements of reality - space, time, matter, energy…. ‘life, the universe & everything’ ….
‘The universe’ ? Turns out we live in a (verifiably) panpsychic universe, that is to say, in one in which each & every single, individual, discrete & separate, autopoietic or non-autopoietic, but all bounded, all Markovian-blanketed, increments of hard, solid matter possesses some quite certain, fully measurable, albeit highly varying, never zero & in some (many) increments of matter, extremely small in comparison to our own - & just as easily measured - sentience or consciousness, the latter (consciousness) exists as we ourselves know it, exclusively under certain, well defined conditions & circumstances. ‘As we know it’ ? As does any cognitively self-conscious aware entity know whatever it knows…
Not so incidentally there exists no dearth of homunculi in a pansychic universe as each & every single, individual increment of solid matter has some real (& fully measurable) sentience-come-consciousness inside it.
That which any increment of (bounded) solid material ‘sees’, ‘hears’, ‘touches’, ‘tastes’, ‘smells’ simple depends on how many senses it has. Although they are ‘perfectly sentient’ in their own very limited way the rocks & stones beneath our feet, the chairs & sofas on which we sit have many orders of magnitude fewer senses than have we ……
Once one recognises ‘information’s’ correct ontological identity it becomes immediately & fully verifiably clear that (i) computer digits are not ‘information’, & (ii) no mental phenomena such as ‘thought’, ‘mind’, ‘intelligence’, ‘cognition’, ‘understanding’ & ‘consciousness’ is computationally tractable.
The very different kinds of ‘machines’ - systems, gadgets, entities - which are capable of ‘thinking’ also becomes clear, which particular understanding eventually leads to the additional understanding of exactly that which consciousness itself is ….
Once one recognises ‘information’s’ correct ontological identity, no especial difficulty attends the task of identifying, classifying, tracking & tracing any kind & amount of the phenomenon where- & whenever any of it exists here in our Universe, including any of it being operated on in our own brains. Which particular exercise is that which enables the identification of, firstly, where in our brains consciousness resides, & secondly, the identity & function of the particular component of our thinking apparatus which resides there…..& from there ‘consciousness’ itself can be identified & understood…. & much more too !
Isn’t it amazing that no rigorous - & fully verifiable - definition of ‘information’ exists ?? Indeed, no one seems to have even noticed …..
Cheers ….
I am anxious listening to this
What is consciousness? Reality? Im lost, aged 70 now, fading vision and thinking.😢
The universe is conscious being centric. In Chinese 众生心 where there are infinite beings and each being is a universe - parallel universes.
We might simplify consciousness to "sensitivity to one's own existence".
That which observes the sensations/senses, and that which observes the absence of sensations/senses.... _that_ is consciousness.
The place to begin with physicalism/realism/naturalism versus any supernatural belief is that every individual human in truth only knows what they are imagining in response to what their subconscious mind/body presents to them as sensed information about the existence that individual human resides in. For all we really know, in that sense, you might be a brain in a vat living your life in a virtual reality and everything you think is real is a made up virtual reality being presented to you.
So scientifically what we consider physicalism/realism/naturalism is the shared imagining that we can prove to each other is the same, where it does not matter what difference of beliefs there are, that common proven thing that is the same for everyone, that is physical, that is real, that is natural.
Thus, that solid wood door which is closed is really there for everyone. Someone who claims they can walk through the door without opening it is not able to prove that, but instead we can prove that no one can walk through that closed door.
So far science has not found any scientifically provable evidence of anything outside physicalism/realism/naturalism.
So, a big question is whether or not you can explain within reason everything we see, including consciousness, with what is within physicalism/realism/naturalism.
The answer is "Of Course".
Now, some people don't quite understand what matter really is.
Matter is energy, they are not separate things. Matter/energy vibrates, moves, and changes. A region of vibrating matter/energy which is vibrating has ripples that extend out away from it, theoretically to infinity, with no true clear cutoff, but the magnitude of that vibration decreases with distance and thus at boundaries we can clearly define the effective vibration ends. Thus, we can have molecules, atoms, protons, quarks, and such.
Everything, literally without exception, everything is made up of this matter/energy, which most likely within the probabilities we find within science is made up of elementary particles following the Laws of Nature which we try to predict and understand through our made up imagined Laws of Physics.
Information is a property of matter/energy moving around in some pattern. Information is not separate from matter/energy. It is a property of matter/energy. It is not possible to have information without matter/energy. It is not possible for matter/energy to exist without also having information. They are not divisible where you can have information without matter/energy or have matter/energy without information.
Now, the next point I want to make is that science is now overwhelmingly showing that all life as we know it from viroids to viruses to bacteria to fungus to plants to animals and to humans the most important human species is all intelligent, conscious, and aware. Further, the type of intelligence is a swarm intelligence for all life as we know it. Further, the leading edges of more complex and advanced "Swarm Intelligence" comes from an existing swarm intelligence which actively intelligently evolves itself in combination with random events which occur and having to survive within the envelope of natural selection in order to keep evolving.
Now, understand what the real definition of consciousness is.
Consciousness is an intelligent system being actively aware of something over which that intelligent system is applying some of its intelligence. Any active intelligent system will be aware of something for which it is conscious of.
This is really very simple and straight forward.
Really what we get into discussions and debates about with relation to consciousness is not really about what consciousness is, but about what intelligence is and why intelligence is the way that it is, why does intelligence exist, why is our self-aware conscious mind which is a swarm intelligence like it is, and why is our "QUALIA" of self-aware consciousness like it is.
Now, the building blocks of viroid and virus swarm intelligence is FUNDAMENTAL to our higher brain processes. That swarm intelligence is a base pyramid of swarm intelligence upon which our minds are built upon and work. RNA, DNA, and protein swarm intelligence is very active inside every single cell within our body, such that every single cell is an individual swarm intelligence. Bacterial swarm intelligence is used within our cells too, as a building block.
Point being, understanding that viruses are intelligent and conscious is a first step to better understanding how our intelligence and consciousness work.
Similarly, how bacteria swarm intelligence works, how it is intelligent and conscious, is another step to better understanding how our intelligence and consciousness work.
Then understanding how the intelligence of plants work, even though we are animal not plant, helps to understand, because plants are intelligent and conscious.
Learning how the swarm intelligence of all animals from the simplest animal with no neurological system, to animals with neurological systems but no brains, to animals with brains as they become increasingly complex and advanced until we get to human swarm minds will all help us better understand our own minds.
Realize that we are inside our local to us in space-time Technological Singularity, where by the time we pass through this surge in the rate of scientific and technological development we will have mastered nanotech cybernetics allowing us to alter all our existing cells into cybernetic cells giving us 100% access to our full minds/bodies. Within 50 to 200 years humans will begin to cease to be human because we are going through a natural 100% predictable evolutionary leap to our next stage of development.
When we master this technology we will create Artificial General Super Intelligent Brain (AGSIB) technology which we will be able to move full human minds into and out of. We will be able to create nanotech cybernetic grown custom designed bodies we can wear like clothing.
But, our minds will still 100% be made up of a swarm intelligent system of matter/energy, which is physical, which is real, which is natural.
Now, science is not yet overwhelming supporting the following, so the following is a scientific hypothesis, but I believe it will eventually be found to be scientific fact.
>
Thus, all we are is a bounded swarm of elementary particles which have learned over the past 13.7+ billion years how become the intelligence we are today and we are going to continue learning to become an intelligence so vastly more complex and advanced than we are today that it is not really possible for us to comprehend what we are evolving into.
But... all this is 100% natural, 100% physical matter/energy, and 100% real.
Now, that does not mean that we have no illusions.
That does not mean there is no imaginary things.
But, even those imaginary things have a real existence of being information made up of matter/energy forming the patterns of what is imagined.
In the following video I get into this point as well as discussing why we have free will.
Free Will and the Human Swarm Mind Post 1 : Musings From The John 00 : 2023-09-18
czcams.com/video/nUsjnOu9qXQ/video.htmlsi=u2X9bEiyJcxr-hF-
Mitochondria is in control of everything 😂
We are simply portals for them for time travel..
Consciousness manifests fron two or more entities to communicate?