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Is "stacking tacks" or "stacking dimes" with mig welding bad?
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- čas přidán 7. 08. 2024
- In this episode we tackle the issue with "stacking dimes" with mig. This episode features actual aftermarket parts being destructively tested, and simulated welds to show what happens when you favor visual appearance over function.
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0:00:00 Intro
0:03:31 Past welds
0:08:36 Real world example welds
0:19:43 Test weld break testing
0:26:15 break test inspection
0:31:59 Conclusion
I think people get so caught up on "tying" the metal together they forget that the whole point of welding is that it is MELTED together and becomes homogenous.
Glad to see a light shined on this whole stacking dimes thing.
Sometimes pretty welds aren't strong, and sometimes strong welds aren't pretty.
Beware the excessively pretty MIG weld!
When I started welding, a guy I worked with said make it hold, a 1/4" of paint will make it pretty.
The voice of reason speaks!
@@Blazeforklines like that make me glad they back end of my pickup is (factory) fiberglass.
I grew up on a TX farm. Grandpa went for strength. Dad is who i got OCD perfection disease from.
This is the only video I've seen that shows good evidence and explanation to the contrary of stacking dimes. Many thanks!
No problem 😀. If you were to cut open more factory parts in motorsports you would find a ton similar. For the most part it’s never known because things never get stressed to the max, and thus minimal failures. I knew how important it was to use a real world example to demonstrate the risks involved. It worked out to be almost too good of an example. A part that required in field repair, a weld that looked like it was welded with visual appearance over strength as the main goal, and a end result when cut apart that shows exactly why it’s a bad idea lol. I think I will cut apart more parts in the future to see how the welding stacks up.
Stacks up! 😆
The hardest part is getting the people that stack dimes to do a cut and etch to show what’s going on. Millions of weld pictures of stacked dimes with mig, yet virtually no evidence of what the actual inside of the weld looks like. There is a reason for that lol.
I've been learning flux core by myself. Thanks for saving me from the trap of dimes. I recently started stacking dimes because I assumed they were a superior weld, and more advanced than stringers.
So flux core does have more inherent penetration than short arc mig, and doing dimes with it isn’t a huge issue on thinner material. I commonly do that when welding exhaust to avoid blowing a hole. However on 3/16th and above you want to avoid it or you will see inconsistent fusion and thus weaker welds. It’s also easier to see a ripple pattern with flux core than mig because flux core falls under a “fast freeze” category. Basically when running reasonable settings the weld pool freezes fast enough that any movement is captured. With gas shielded mig the proper settings for thicker plate produces a hot liquid weld pool, that more or less self levels a significant amount, and is much harder to produce a distinct ripple like flux core can. Which is why universally people run lower settings with mig to achieve a look of a stack of dimes which will sacrifice weld penetration.
In your situation don’t be afraid to try things, and do a simple cut&etch or break test to see what’s actually going on. Wire welding has so many variables that affect performance, that beyond a certain point testing your own welds becomes a necessity to really know what’s going on.
@makingmistakeswithgreg Thanks for the reply Weld God Greg. I'm extremely new to welding, so I had no idea about freeze time or that mig produced a less viscous weld pool. I'm still at a point where my main concern is variable control and technique, not strength or penetration, as without proficiency in the above, any testing is meaningless because of poor variable control. I greatly appreciate your input and advice, and will do my best to apply it as I advance. I'm working with a Lincoln Weld-Pak 100 and Lincoln Pro-Core 125, and I have noticed what you mentioned. I burn through less when I weave the pool. So far, most of my welding has been under 3/16," and I haven't done any destructive tests or etching. I do bevel my material, and have gotten full penetration a few times on coupons using the cursive e method. I'd like to get to a point where I don't blow through when I weld stringers, but I still need to work on rod angle, work angle, and CTWD. My last few welds were weave, using a slight drag angle, with 0.035" wire, and a 1/4" CTWD. They came out consistent in appearance, but I'm unable to get similar consistency with stringers. Time for more practice!
Practice is definitely the ticket. One of the reason’s you probably melt through when welding a stringer and not when weaving, is weaving gives time for an area to cool down and solidify. That solid mass (despite still being hot) is a heat sink for the molten puddle, and makes it harder for the weld pool to melt through the base material. If you are welding butt welds this holds especially true. It’s very common for guys to weld fairly wide oversized welds on thin butt welds (like on exhaust) with wire welding because it gives them more control. To achieve a stringer weld on butted plates requires a bit lower settings than what you would run on a fillet weld or a lap weld. Odds are you’re simply running a bit too hot or moving a bit too slow. A reduction in settings should give you the ability to not blow a hole. The hard part is the thinner the material the more difficult it is to get things right. The window of what works and what doesn’t becomes very small with thinner materials.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg I agree. The thin stuff I've been welding has been welded at the lowest setting my setup can achieve. I run it at power "A," and the variable feed rate is slightly below setting "2," so I don't have the option to run cooler. I've tried speeding myself up, but I have to go so fast that I'm unable to be consistent, and the electrode moves far away enough from the weld pool that my welds turn out looking booger-ey and inconsistent. I think I should get some thicker coupons, rather than jumping into the deep end, and trying to learn on sheet metal. I had some good results welding exhaust tubing onto 1/4" plate recently. I preheated the plate since I'd burn through the tubing if I used the correct settings for the plate, and I'd get zero fusion on the plate when using the correct settings for the tubing. I heated the plate until its surface showed blue coloration, then welded with 0.035" wire, and 1/4" CTWD, with a slight drag angle. I think one of the biggest things that helped me was getting comfortable (physically), and bracing against something before beginning a weld.
I was taught to stack welds and preheat thick metal I very welded on ships machinery and built semi trailer frames and my welds look good
What a great video for folks to learn from because so many videos show the tacking technique even with stick and it's just crap. I get really annoyed when I see folk tacking, it's not welding in my opinion because there is as you say "no penetration" and as such, no fusion value to create a strong joint.
So many people follow what they see online without understanding what they are doing. I hear “well 6010 does it so why can’t I” very often when it comes to stacking dimes with mig. The truth is it’s very difficult to achieve any performance with super cold welds, and you can’t stack dimes with hot settings, so on face value stacking dimes and fusion are not compatible lol. Just wait until part two is out for this video series, I did a ton of testing and the results are eye opening lol.
Hi Greg, excellent subject selection, this is an aspect of wielding that too few understand, well done. I believe social media is responsible.
It definitely is. So many people focus on the look and not the performance. If someone wants to make the strongest welds they need to focus on consistency and proper fusion. Which with short arc might primarily means fairly flat/uniform welds that are “boring”.
Oh yes thanks for covering this topic.
It gets much worse for Ali MIG. I came back from a weekend to find 13 of 14 welds had failed radiograph, yet they only vowed to double-down on "the magic weave!".
Your one about "present your wonderful welds and I will test" - I have been at that moment myself...
Man I bet aluminum could have some serious issues. In my own testing I have seen welds bridge the root so bad there is dust on it lol. I have also made a lot of money repairing failed aluminum trailer welds that were a direct result of no root fusion and left over crater eyes. That’s probably why there are so few people good at aluminum welding, people simply don’t understand how important it is to run proper settings and verify that what they are doing is actually working. Running cold and adding more variables into a complex situation rarely makes a positive change. The fewer the variables the better, especially if the work needs to get NDT. Rework is the worst kind of work 😵
To aid in clarification. This video is aimed at the typical home level welding machine run in short arc (sub 220amp) and is done looking at motorsports welding. Significant amounts of Motorsport parts are welded with short arc, and this is the performance that could be expected. IN NO WAY am I suggesting that any welds in the video are the correct way to weld, or representative of what you ideally want. The correct way to weld things that require strength is hot consistent stringer welds. If someone has access to a 250+ amp mig machine with pulse so that spray pulse is a possibility, it will be more likely to produce acceptable welds with a stack of dimes look. Unfortunately this is unrealistic to the average persons situation, and is not a common process within motorsports.
I extend a offer to anyone that feels they can create a stack of dimes weld on a fillet weld, that doesn’t lose performance with the short arc process, to submit a test weld(s) for testing. If you succeed you will win a free welding cap ordered to your size.
I've mentioned this several times but no one ever seems to believe me, this was pretty good evidence showing the negative effects.
Just wait until you see part two lol. I literally exactly duplicated the “perfect stack” of mig dimes, and did multiple cut/etches, break tests, and on 1/4inch steel too. Needless to say the results were even worse than the first video lol.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg Nice! Looking forward to it, this info needs more recognition.
Wowwww Greg started to watch part 2 an had to go back to this part first CANNOT stress enough that there’s no good Safe welds without PENETRATION 💪🏽💪🏽💪🏽💪🏽
Oh man the new clamp video was a real winner, loved every minute of it.
Brand new welder. Just set my Miller up.
Found subscribed today. So I appreciate your detailed explanation of the subject.
No problem 😀. In part two of this video I did a ton more testing and really tried to cover all the basis with what’s going on. The most important thing is to run settings that are appropriate for what you’re welding. If you reduce settings to lower values to make things look better, you will lose strength. There is a time place for everything, and anyone who is learning (or when something needs the most strength) the focus should be on proper settings and straight in welds.
I do agree with you! People NEED to watch this!!!
As usual very with useful information and well presented
Very accurate and informative video Greg. Social media for sure is a major culprit for all of the stack of dimes weak welds. I don’t do a whole lot of short arc anymore, but when I do, I find myself doin very small “weave” like motions. It’s more out of habit and my way of being more consistent. It’s easier to stay steady when I’m focused on moving slightly. Your content is always great. I’ve been searching youtube for a video about “slag welding” with 7018. I’ve had numerous old timers tell me that you can weld right over hot slag without trapping anything and stil pass a UT. I can’t bring myself to believe it nor would I want to take the risk. If I get some spare time I may run some multipass fillets over slag and test it with a cut and etch. I was pretty shocked that I couldn’t find any videos on this subject. Maybe keep that subject in the back of your mind incase you are looking for content ideas.
Interesting thought on the welding over slag. I know that 6010 can turn a lot of slag entrapment into metal. 7018 I would think would have a lot of defects. I will have to try this and see what happens.
Single pass, good penetration and don’t focus on appearance with mig. I really liked the explanation on tig stacking dimes as appearance was always my goal especially after using my diy Electropolisher!
The explanation you gave on the tig part told me that my tig stuff is good:) Mostly a header, tig cart and other goodies. Your other vids on stick and others are really helping me out in seeing the big picture
as I’m not, as you are, a highly schooled welder. Good engineering and diligence along with some common sense seem to be what you are putting out there and I’m with you for sure. Btw the ginger beer was great thanks👍🙏👋 ‘freezer
Glad to hear the beer got to you and was good 😀. I will be doing a part two of this video to really iron out some more details with cut and etches along with some other tests. It will be interesting lol.
Thanks for the video. Great subject and good discussion. Bringing it all together with the testing. Cheers!
No problem. It’s a hard subject to cover because a lot of people get upset over it. The truth is, reduced settings and poor technique produces weak welds. They might be pretty, but they are weaker. If strength matters knowingly making weak welds is a huge mistake lol.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg Totally agree, it has to be as strong as you can make it. Pretty is just pretty, it's rare to get both. Important to understand what welding is for, its not just looks.
Yes thank you for this insight. What i know is mig is a cold start welding process. Over the years i have seen hardened professionals spot welds in sheet steel just come apart, and when you look at the rear of the panel with the 5/16 hole in it. It just resembles a heap of worms. And on heavier stock i was always taught to weld forward never drag. The reasoning for that was you are chasing the heated metal, wrong or right. This video just proves you tack to hold until you weld. I value your videos like you wouldnt believe. Thanks !
Glad the videos provide useful content to you 😀. My goal is to give people an education so they can choose what’s right for them and their situation. There are so many variables in welding that the most important knowledge is not what the “right settings are” or the “book answer”, but to be able to determine the best solution given the tools you have and the task at hand.
The stacked tack is the Asian CZcamsr special
Great subject and analogy. I pretty much use MIG for all my maintenance on earth moving machinery. Both gas and duel sheild. I always say if they want it pretty I'll get the spray can out. Most of my work now is inside the shed. cheers.
Mig is definitely strong, I will be the first to admit I didn’t give it the credit it deserves. There are a lot of variables that can affect the penetration and strength, far more than stick. I think that’s why it gets such a bad rap, people running cold settings and not fusing anything. Running decent settings results in very solid performance. Then like you said you have the possibility of dual shield or spray arc which makes things even better.
Ok one topic you keep touching on but not covering is one of the most common problems I have run into time and time again in my 30+ years of fabricating is the elusive common sense that is not as common as one would think. 🤔🤔🤷😎😎😎Keep the sparks flying and thanks for the video.
Haha it definitely isn’t. Another one should be “believe but verify”. If I never tested anything I did and just believed what everyone said I wouldn’t know half the stuff I do. The more complex something is the higher the probability someone made a mistake in their understanding of it. That mistake can prevent real progress and the ability to come up with accurate solutions to problems. It pays to verify lol.
This just popped up in my feed. It’s from Jody’s welding tips and tricks. I’ve been watching him for years. This clip is 11 years old. A different take on this. This one isn’t a fillet but an outside corner. But I looked and he does have dime welds with MiG for fillets. If you notice his welds, they are extremely neat and the height is pretty even. It’s worth watching.
As Red seal welder and a welding engineering tech this is exactly what I would expect to see. Good job on your description of what is happening. I hope this keeps somebody alive somewhere down the road. Even on some of these tv shows I see things that aren't really great structurally and on some things it doesn't matter. But when you weld this stuff up remember it may be your wife and child going down the road behind some of these creations. The same goes for these guys building trailers with little 110 welders and welding spring hangers with something that was designed to weld 1/8 max. Scary.
I hope the video helps people out too. Since people often weld and never test anything (cut and etch, break test, etc), it’s easy to fall into the trap of “it’s good enough” because it looks a certain way. Combine that with poor welding techniques, inexperience, and a a lack of understanding of how forces are applied, and failures will be common. A little bit of knowledge goes a long way to avoid serious failures. Especially for self taught welders, they often form bad habits and do things other non structural background welders do (dimes, wide weaves, stacking tacks, etc). It’s not that everything needs to pass xray and be welded to nasa code, but knowing how to make strong welds along with when to use them is only a benefit.
Damn, you've got some knowledge! Thank you for sharing!
Thank you for this tutorial. Really needed this not only knowledge wise but help my confidence in the work I do. Thank you Sir.
P.S. Totally get a kick with your bluntness.
No problem 😀. Part two will be out soon. There will be tons of cut&etches along with more break tests. It should really help clarify a lot of the points I made and bring things together. The most important thing with mig is to get proper fusion. That’s why it’s important to do cut&etches on your welds and break tests to see what’s going on. That knowledge will help you understand the difference between proper heat input and not enough. It will build confidence because you will know your settings are making strong welds.
Great vid. I feel like you channel AvE more and more as the video progresses 🤣
I worked at a Grade #1 structural (huge columns, 2"-6" base plates, all x-ray. Of course, mig, we had to start, and finish without stopping. The point is the astetics and penetration were both very important.
Thanks for passing this information with us.
No problem, glad you learned something. Part two will be out soon 😀
Best welding channel.
Thanks for thinking that 😀. I think it’s more like the best viewers because people are so invested in themselves, and bettering their knowledge/skillset. I don’t provide all the answers and I am not always right, but I try to get people to know what they are doing so they can become better at what they do 😀
I think another big part of the weakness of the "stack of dimes" sort of MIG welds is the fact that it requires letting the back of the puddle freeze, then re-melting it. To me, that means additional stresses in the weld, that wouldn't be there with a stringer.
You are correct. By not carrying heat you will have inconsistent penetration. The grain structure of the actual weld will be different as well. The more distinct the stack of dimes is the more variation in the weld thickness there is, and it would be easy to have too thin of a weld in places. That’s why in things requiring strength it’s very common not to allow anything but smooth stringers with mig. A slight ripple pattern that’s flat is definitely serviceable, but what’s on tons of stuff made today is really sub par.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg my typical technique is a sort of move and pause, about 1/8" at a time, never pushing backwards into the weld. If I need a little wider bead, I'll make more of a cursive-i movement (without the dot, obviously), never moving backwards.
My buddy is going through some welding classes right now to better his knowledge and skills. I just told him to check out your channel. I think it will help him better his technique and teach him about heat and penetration. Good info today, it answered questions that I had. Thanks.
Thanks for sending someone over to help improve their skills 😀.
Very interesting. I was taught (in my grand total of 4-5 hours of training) to make small zigzags or curlicues to get better fusion and prevent undercuts on the edge of the weld. Not stacked dimes, but just trying to enlarge the weld pool a bit.
Generally speaking with short arc mig the wider you weld the less the root fuses on a root pass. For second/third passes over a root pass it’s not really a concern, because you don’t need much fusion. Doing small manipulations can help produce a slightly flatter profile weld, which can be good. However you want to limit the thickness of molten pool. When you slow your travel speed and deposit more metal, the wire must go through more molten metal to get to the root. Short circuit doesn’t like to penetrate through a thick weld pool, which is why if you don’t weld on the leading edge of a molten puddle (and you “ride” the puddle) you typically have a poor root fusion. The best way to really know where you’re at is to do some test welds and break them/cut and etch. If they look anything like the welds in the video you need to make adjustments. That’s the hardest part with mig, is that so many things can drastically change the performance that unless you’re running a single weld straight in and hot, your results can be all over the map.
short-arc is a funny process! so many variables,the situation requires different manipulation. I always keep the arc on the leading edge,any oscillation still requires that the puddle doesn't outpace you and cold-lap. mig still doesn't have the elongation or ductility of 'stick' or dualshield.Cool video!
Absolutely. Short arc works great and can be extremely strong, but adding variables is not desirable at all. That’s why I really push people to stick with “tried and true”. The least amount of variables has the most predictable outcome. A few small changes in how that part was welded could have resulted in something that would have had no issues and needed no trail repairs.
Good one here Greg! Now I feel better about my ugly but serviceable welds. My buddy taught me the stack n tack er tack and stack... But I was welding thin sheet 20-18ga probably or possibly with flux core, and later with his Tig. Bottom line was some of it looked ok some didn't and my gas tank leaked like a sive! On slightly thicker metal (sprinkler pipe) he welded up (or tacked up) a square hole my dumb ass cut into the tube B4 I knew about stress risers. That lasted about a block and I came back around and weaved a nice fat fluxy bead over the whole damn thing and I was good ever since. Well the frame was good... Structurally... But twisted from getting hit by a car... And then it came off the road for mechanical issues. (VW trike)
With thin sheet, tack welds can be the only way to weld it, depending on how thick it is. The problem with thin stuff is the tendency to warp, and very short tacks can really help get things fused without warping. It’s just that on thicker material it’s so detrimental to strength. Mig and flux core make it so easy to just do short welds (just pull the trigger) vs say stick, so it can be very common to do just that without realizing what’s actually going on.
Don’t feel bad if your welds aren’t the prettiest. If you have some decent fusion you will be just fine. Even inconsistencies in width and height can still be very strong with root fusion. In this video the first bend test weld run with reasonable settings and a somewhat inconsistent circle e movement hit 100 ftlbs vs 70ftlbs of the 3rd (cold) weld. Thats a 40%+ increase in strength for the first over the 3rd.
This was very informative! My welds might not be the prettiest, but I am about penatration. I am just a hobbiest and fix my own stuff.
Recently I had to weld my first thicker piece of metal and I did as hot as I could for the root, then more of a j-motion for a second pass. After seeing this I will pay more attention to my root and tip angle on mig and keep it hot. Luckily my part is under almost no stress so it will be fine, but this is pretty eye opening for how making a pretty weld doesn't equal strong.
Even a weak weld is pretty strong, the best habit to follow is trying to do your best job at making strong welds. It’s impossible to do everything right with welding, but a few small tweaks can make a world of difference. 😀
I agree 100%!!! You are exactly right, mig welding doesn't penetrate deeply in to the base metal. It's strength is in the fusion to the base metal. For the fusion to occure at the root, the arc must be focused at the root and not interrupted. Any time the arc is moved away from the root of the joint, fusion is compromised. While this often is not an issue on thinner materials, it most likely will severely weaken the weld on thicker plate. It is possible to get a sound weld doing this, bu unless you want to x-ray or ultrasound it you have no way of knowing. Also I would like to stress the importance of travel speed. Too fast is usually obvious. However, too slow can also reduce penetration at the root because instead of the arc melting the base metal it is focused on the puddle, which can at times insulate the root and prevent fusion at the root.
Great video and content!
Mig can definitely work great and is a solid process if you keep your variables to a minimum. I think the fact you can do so many things wrong with it (like big weaves, stacking tacks, putting down far too much metal per pass, etc) that many people think it’s somehow a bad process or weak. Combine that with the fact virtually nobody tests their welds with a cut/etch or break test and you have a recipe for a lot of failed/weak welds. It’s not that the process isn’t capable of good welds, it’s the lack of understanding of the person doing the welding that’s to blame. Being reasonable with mig (aka running good settings, keeping the beads straight and on the root,etc) will net really good results. The only thing I don’t like about mig is it can be difficult to get a read on root fusion without a x-ray/ultrasound like you said. From a visual perspective a solid looking weld can be very poor in fusion. Stick welding is much more obvious when the internal fusion is poor.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg i totally agree. It's a very good process when done correctly.
AWS has published quite a few documents on "stacking dimes" being weaker.
Greg, many moons ago I welded at a shipyard (Subs) I lucked out and got to work a year at the Q school qualifying new hires. The mig test was spray arc horizontal with 1/16" 100S wire. I had a handful of high school vo-tech grads that all used a whipping technique to get a stack of dimes look. Every one of them failed the bend test. Go figure!
Totally expected based on technique and unfortunately humbling to fail a test like that. Trying to get a stack of dimes to pass any serious testing will be tough for sure. Obviously not all welds need to be super strong, but it’s not worth the reduction in strength to make something look a certain way for most things lol.
I am not a pro welder, lesson learned, dont mig thick materials. Use stick weld and adhere to welding procedures. Thanks so much. I've learned a lot.
MiG is capable of welding thick plate and producing high strength welds. In many cases surpassing stick welds. The biggest issue with mig is that there are many variables that all affect the performance of the weld. Everything from the voltage, shielding gas, push vs pull, etc have a drastic effect on the weld. Stick pretty much only works within a narrow range on settings, and techniques. That’s good because you can get reliable performance with stick that’s consistently good.
another good video Greg. I appreciate your no nonsense approach. Personally I have only 2 types of welding I do on my farm. Structural stuff on tractors and equipment where strength is way more important than looks. And artsy stuff that I do for fun. Not much in between. But you sure don't want that bucket hook to break loose, or front loader bracket.
You handled the explanation very respectfully & appropriately. Question: Couldn't you make a hot MIG root pass & then go back and make a stack of dimes, or more attractive second pass just for aesthetic results? Or does the heat of the second pass effect the root pass negatively?
Great question. So the main limitation with making dimes is if you run cold settings and do circle e movements you will have very poor fusion. In part two (which will be out shortly) of this video I do a bunch of cut& etchs to show how penetration is lost as settings are reduced. If someone uses appropriate settings for the thickness of metal, they can’t make dimes because the weld pool is too liquid. Reducing settings makes dimes possible, but it increases the probability of poor fusion. It’s a real slippery slope. The hardest part is there is no clearly defined setpoint where “anything less” is bad, and anything more is good. How a person manipulates the puddle when they are running reduced settings can completely change the fusion. It’s kind of like this: Running hot gives the best fusion with inconsistency in travel speed, gun angle, etc. Running colder can mean any change in speed, or movement instantly causes a lack of fusion. That’s why it’s so important to carry enough heat that everything fuses as you move.
I attended an aluminum welding class put on by the manufacturer of aluminum welding filler materials. This was a one day class. Some 30 years ago. The instructor hit on the stacking dimes right off as being a pore weld structurally. Did not mater if it was wire fed or TIG. Reason being is every seam between each dime shaped is a potential crack. Yes done right it looks very nice. But according to industry standards that is inherently a weaker weld with many potential fail points. Even before that class I was always taught by the old timers that the smoother the weld the stronger be it steel or aluminum
With aluminum it’s incredibly difficult to produce a smooth weld with tig. The interesting thing is the more distinct the ripple pattern with tig aluminum the worse the penetration, just like “stacking dimes” with mig on steel. My aluminum tig welds tend to look more like a slight ripple of frosty dimes, much of aluminum tig welding is very polished looking high peak to valley dimes, and thus very poor penetration. When mig is used on an aluminum with the attempt to stack dimes, no doubt very poor fusion happens. Your class may have been 30 years ago but what was taught still holds true today. Goes to show how certain things stay the same over long time periods lol.
@@makingmistakeswithgregI think there is a distinct difference between a surface ripple caused by a necessary variation in the welding process, and actually interrupting the continuity of a weld to make it have that aesthetic.
I've run into this myself and used it in amateur motorsport applications. I think the problem comes from misinformation from people assuming it's done the same as a tig.
The tradesman that I learnt from would never use it in as a single pass weld on anything except on specific prep outside corner welds. That's where the inside corners of each plate meet a notch that you have fill as you go. I think this was with close to stringer settings and then use the size and speed of your moments to cool the puddle down, because your basically set to hot for this pass.
Any other type of welding, fillet, pipe, butts ect were all performed by first weld preping the joint during fit up and spray welding stringer root weld. The dime stacking was a secondary cap
Wow! Thx for the info!
No problem, definitely some interesting things were discovered lol 😀
I always thought the same. Now you proved it
The only way I think a stack of dimes could work is if it’s done as a 2+ pass weld with the root being done hot and with proper fusion. Fill/cap passes don’t need much penetration to function, so the loss of penetration wouldn’t be a huge issue. A proper mig weld is hot enough that the puddle stays liquid for a while, and that makes it very difficult to stack metal (hot settings makes a smoother weld).
The fact the suspension component had previous repairs and the visual appearance made a prediction of poor fusion on face value, it really goes to show why it’s not smart to focus on stacking dimes with mig. I plan on cutting up some other stuff that is factory welded to really look at this in the future.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg Thanks for all of valuable information and hard work.
Greg, thank you for your efforts. My only problem with all these tests is that they are not statistically proven. I guess this is still good enough to make a basic showcase, yet it would be good to know not only a single-shot measurement value but a mean value and a variance for tensile strength of a weld.
I will have part two out shortly with a lot more tests. From a statistical point of view the settings used, calculated heat input, and metal thickness can actually be used to make a very accurate prediction on penetration/performance. Fusing metal together requires a lot of heat, and running cold settings to make a weld look a certain was is a sure fire way to lose fusion. It’s not that “stacking dimes” doesn’t put a lot of heat into a part, it can. Slow travel speed combined with low heat input may put the same (or more) heat as a hot fast pass. However if the heat input at any given time is not high enough to produce solid fusion, the results will be poor. Much like putting a lighter to a piece of 1/4inch steel for 12 hours straight will put more heat into it than a weld will, yet nothing will melt. In the part two video there are cut and etch’s that really look at comparing results and there is a definite trend that shows lack of fusion at settings that make it capable to make “dimes”. A proper mig weld pool is so hot and liquid and can’t be manipulated to leave dimes. Reducing heat will only reduce penetration/fusion.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg Great, thanks. I'd like to correct/explain my comment a bit further - a difference in strength between different quality welds is almost obvious, but the interesing part is where do these single-shot values landed within an uncertanity range around mean values, i.e. how close were they to respective mean values for each quality of weld.
Extreeee good 😎👍👍
The only time I use the overlapping tack method is when any sheet metal is to be welded that is under 1mm in thickness. Such as car body repairs for example. There are videos from the East of planet Earth where they basically tack truck chassis, axles, gearbox's, manifolds and such like. Some don't even clean the parent metal, very cringeworthy and extremely dangerous but out there, nobody is liable it seems.
I can crank up my 3phase mig welder upto 400amps and I would contest those welds against any stick weld done on the same thickness steel in a workshop environment. Even my 260 single phase can melt metal good. It must be clean as you say. I prefer to use a 40grit flap disc over a rock or solid grinding disc, the metal is cleaner and there is less loss of thickness.
On wide weave vs stringer, absolutely I agree.
Yep, on sheet metal you can use the tack method to great success. Definitely not advisable on anything beyond sheet metal. Mig can definitely produce incredibly strong welds. It’s just so easy to do really dumb things with the process and it can be very difficult to realize what a person did. A normal short arc mig weld can look ok, but have poor fusion. A decent looking stick weld is much less likely to have serious flaws. Once you get into spray arc, flux core, and dual shield wires then you know you have solid performance. I have done a lot of testing and short arc mig has proven to be very solid on 1/4in+ provided the weld is run hot without a lot of manipulation. All bets are off when people run cold lol.
Lol, "if you don't have heat and time, then you don't have Sh*t!". Tell us how you really feel about it, stop holding back! 😀😀😀
Well said sir, well said.
That pretty much sums it up lol.
I totally understand what you was saying and agree but I have to ask what if you would have helped every weld by grinding bevel on that edge i believe that should be done especially for structure welds im just wondering what you think about that
Ps thank you for showing this I'm not a pro I'm a mechanic farmer sometimes hot glue some shit together kinda guy shade tree fabricator lol but I definitely really see a big ass different in opinion on everything about welding everywhere I get it but I don't cause on vehicles and structures it's a very important serious need for safety and strength and just reliability hence just like your jeep bracket that could have been a life threatening failure professional or not I would never weld frames or lots of things if it was for anyone but me the liability would scare the shit out of me
I will be releasing a video dealing with beveling soon. Beveling is a slippery slope. A simple bevel will not guarantee fusion in the root, settings that will not fuse a root on say a 1/4inch straight fillet weld will not fuse the root on a fillet weld where the top plate is beveled slightly. Open root, knife edge (or small landing) bevels allow for complete penetration and the strongest joint possible assuming you’re welding from only one side. In simpler terms simply knocking the edge off where you’re welding and putting a single pass on say 3/8th plate will not significantly improve strength. Running hot and running a slight gap between the plates will likely give better performance than a partial bevel, assuming a single pass. There are so many variables it’s difficult to make testing fair, but the video that will be out soon should do a good job of it.
This guy is so averse to dimes, that when he gets change at a store, if there's a dime, he noticeably cringes and says "keep the change."
(I get the hate, I'm trying to research learning welding so I can safely/effectively use my new MIG welder, and it's kinda funny how much this guy dogs on stacking dimes. He seems like he knows what he's talking about though, so I'm subscribing)
Thanks for subscribing. Dont worry, I am not against dimes, I do them all the time with stick and tig, just not mig 😀
If you want a strong filet weld on 1/4 can you first pass with 3/32 6011 and then a second pass use a 1/8 7018 rod?
So 6011 has somewhat limited penetration in comparison to 6010. It may have more penetration than 7018 depending on numerous factors. The biggest issue with going back over a 6011 root pass is making sure it’s clean on the toes so you don’t get slag entrapment when you go over it with 7018. From a strength perspective you wouldn’t want to do a 6011 root pass on anything that could be higher strength steel, it imparts hydrogen into the weld, which can cause weak welds/hydrogen embrittlement.
I am a professional gas metal arc welder I do some flux core also mostly dual Shield you do not need ripples or dimes in the welds for it to be strong you don't need that Ripple pattern that looks like a stack of Dimes that's TIG territory while there are pulse and double pulse machines that will give you that aesthetic for it to be a strong weld you don't need that
There seems to be a huge push where everyone welds dimes with mig in motorsports. Not to mention on the groups I am a member of virtually every “new” mig welder that posts their work asking for tips seems to weld big dimes. I felt doing the video would hopefully help some people realize why it can be a real bad idea. Wire welding in general takes a ton of skill to master and knowing how to get the best results with it is a skill in itself. Across the board might/flux core/dual shield/spray/etc are awesome processes when run correctly. The fewer variables added the better.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg you did a good job new welders in gas metal arc welding AKA Mig needs to practice stringers first just a straight steady even toe stay on the Leading Edge with the proper angle over the work and the correct drag angle which is usually 90° over in about 15 to 20 degrees drag it if it's thick push it if it's thin however if you're running flux core shielded or self shielded you dragged it always new welders need to focus on strength first and then if they want to get fancy then they can practice their cap pass with the ripples but it's not needed you did a good job here Greg
Been welding for 44 years sringers are strong
If I make a stringer, and i want one pass I turn the heat up. When you want a little more penetration wire travel speed are all facters
If you want a thicker bead don't push your puddle drag it and keep that pud hot and penetrating deep WITH A slight oscillation
In part two of the video (which will be out this weekend) I tested a ton more plates and different techniques. No doubt pulling makes a big difference. Even on 1/4 inch pull vs push made a big difference for the better pulling.
Are used to build aluminum and steel dump truck bodies we stack dimes on our welds and I did that for 15 years and never had one come back because it broke but yeah I can see were stacking dimes in some places just won’t work
On dump truck bodies and a lot of things the weld will never be stressed enough to likely fail. The reality is the perfect weld is pretty difficult to achieve and it’s rarely needed. That’s why it’s important a person tests what they welded to figure out where things are at. The more a person knows the better they can make decisions on what they should change (if anything).
I only weave on 2nd or 3rd passes once I have a base stringer pass rooted in.
I am sure that works great, I definitely see nothing wrong with that for general use 👍. You have the best of both worlds, a solid root and a faster fill.
I'm a newbie here... Maybe got 200 hours behind Tig spread between steel, stainless & aluminum.... How much of this applies to tig? I think with tig I can achieve good penetration and visual appeal if I am having a good day on a material/weld that I have some familiarity with.
So I am predominantly a tig welder and have a ton of experience with aluminum/stainless. What was in the video is applicable to some things with tig. Tig on steel and stainless produces extremely solid root fusion provided you dab the filler and pull it out of the puddle along with focusing on the root fusing. You will get a stack of dimes look with this. The colder you run or the more wire you push in the more distinct the dimes.
When it comes to aluminum it’s a whole different ballgame. On aluminum that’s thicker than sheetmetal, the more distinct the dimes the less the root fusion. It’s very common for aluminum to have zero root fusion for the whole
Length of a fillet weld or even a lap weld. Many guys that stack big distinct dimes on aluminum won’t show cut and etches because of the poor fusion. It’s really important to run enough amperage with aluminum and do a cut/etch to see where you are ocassionaly.
When it comes to visual appeal tig makes “pretty” welds that are still structurally sound. You can still make good looking tig welds with terrible fusion (lay wire with pulse over the top) but it’s much harder.
When I started welding/fabrication, a guy I worked with said make it hold, a 1/4" of paint will make it pretty.
Grinder and paint makes me the welder I ain’t. Lol
first like then watch! 😂
The only instance that I know of for "stitch," weld is one time I was welding air powered vibrators on the side of silos , per the manufacturer a hot "stack of dimes" will resist vibration .6010 1/8 little on the hot side
6010 definitely still has fusion even when you sort of tack weld or use a stitch movement. A hot 6010 pass will literally have 3-4 times the penetration of short arc mig. It would take spray arc wire to even come close. I think that’s one of the things people get confused about, 6010 on pipe welds and tig has a nice “stack of dimes”. They don’t understand that the welds look that way despite having full fusion. Trying to make a mig weld look like that is going to end with reduced performance.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg On thicker plate (1/4" or more), what do you think of the idea of running a 6010 root pass for penetration, then one or more cover passes with mig to make it smoother or to look better? Or would it be better to cover it with 7018?
Have you got any experience flux core welding thinner 3/16" and under (1/8") 4130 chromoly tubing?
I have not flux core welded chromoly, but I have flux core welded .120wall and thinner DOM tube and I have tigged a lot of chromoly. Without going into a ton of detail, I will say without a doubt self shielding flux core is not what I would use on chromoly. First and foremost if it’s for anything that’s inspected (aka race car) flux core and stick are universally not allowed. NHRA says tig only on chromoly, but mig is often used as well outside of NHRA. Second, flux core wire in general tends to produce fairly brittle welds (dual shield is less of an issue). Chromoly welds often fail in the heat affected zone and not the weld, which is why it tends to be ok (and desirable) to weld with er70 over er80. I would be highly suspect that a flux core weld would pose a brittleness issue when absorbing chromoly into the finished weld, and likely be the failure point of a joint instead of the heat affected zone. Assuming no heat treatment of course.
I know flux core is capable of welding chromoly from a standpoint of penetration, weld size, and how clean the welds can be. I just worry about how brittle that finished weld would be. T-11 Gasless wire can actually test at 80k plus actual tensile strength. Lincoln’s nr211 (common flux core wire) says typical tests results are 80-92k psi, which is way over er70. So I guess it really comes down to what you’re welding. If it’s a roll cage or something to keep you safe, I wouldn’t do it. If it’s for an experimental aircraft, definitely not. If it’s for a bike frame or some kind of non critical piece, I would say it would probably work. Keep in mind you must avoid rapid changes in heat input with chromoly. You want to weld it keeping it hot and not do short cold welds. Preheat generally isn’t required on thicknesses below 3/16th, but even on 1/8th a 100-140 degree preheat wouldn’t be a bad thing.
Edit: this may sound crazy but chromoly has been successfully welded with oxy acetylene forever. Gas welding it with er70 mig or proper gas welding rod would actually produce a better functioning weld that’s known to be strong. If that is an option I would pick that over flux core for sure.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg thanks for the detailed reply. I have lots of crmo tubing leftover from bmxs, often they are 1018 & 1020 hitensile welded directly to 4130 (factory tigged). Because none of it is Flat stock I can't butt weld 2 coupons together and perform a bend test in the press brake to actually observe the brittleness.
In regular cold rolled steel that has been flux core migged is it possible to post heat treat to remove the brittleness?
You give a lot of really good advice and I really like the channel but you’re saying you gotta run colder settings to get the dimes but I crank my Lincoln 260 at my shop to 22.5 and 250 and get amazing dimes and penetration isn’t a question
Send me a picture with a cut and etch of those settings. Voltage doesn’t increase penetration, and at 250inmin of wire you’re running settings suitable for 14ga material (.035 wire?). There is no way on a 1/4inch steel fillet weld to have near the root fusion as the 360wfs+ 21v settings that are appropriate. On an outside corner joint that’s open maybe. On anything else no way. 250wfs and 22.5v is around 2500 watts of heat input. 360wfs and 22v is 4,000 watts. That’s over 50% more heat input. Going slower making dimes increases heat input, but it doesn’t increase root fusion. Much like taking a small propane torch and heating the plate for a hour won’t weld anything together. You also have to contend with welding through a thicker molten puddle which limits penetration. If you’re running .045 wire that’s a different game, it may be possible to achieve more fusion that .035 due to how much amperage the wire can handle. If you’re on .035 wire run two tests with dimes and two straight in with 360-380wfs. Cut and etch one of each, and break one of each towards the face. One will have far superior fusion, and it won’t be the dimes lol.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg yes it is .035 wire and whatever I’m welding most of the time has some kind of gap, not fillet but most of the time either welding 1/4 to 1/4 or 1/4 to 3/8 plate. I get having the wire in the root is gonna give you better penetration than weaving, but if there’s a gap you got penetration anyway. Never break tested it but I weld on trailer landing gear and they’ve never broke so idk man
It's more complex. Newer mig machines have auto-slope built in - they increase current automatically from low up to your selected setting. When you "Stack dimes" you don't get out of auto-slope-up mode as you're not on-trigger long enough. That's the reality of it. A lot of welders are unaware of that - auto-up is not a thing they know their machine does automatically.
Old skool transformer machines banged out full beans from first trigger - inverter machines don't. So your stacked dimes will always have gone on too cold if you are running a modern inverter machine. Which exacerbates the already low penetration of Mig machines. Flux core wire penetrates a lot more than gas shielded so it "stacks dimes" a lot stronger - however below `1mm wire, metal deposition rates are too low to be worth a damn. 1mm & up, that stuff stacks dimes that are strong, as it runs differently & far hotter than gas shielded.
I can run 2 butts on thin sheet "stacking dimes" using gas shielded & flux core - the backside will look very different - with the flux core, you will have much the same weld on the backside - full penetration. You generally won't with gas-shielded or with flux core wire thinner than 1mm.
Just bought a multi process machine last week, no more trying to stack dimes here.
Stacking dimes is a TIG or oxy/GAS welding technique only, where you can see and control the root as you go and to slow down if you have to to guarantee the penetration needed. You can't do that with mig or sma. Besides, a nice stringer bead is nice looking on it's own.
👍👍😎👍👍 thank you 🙏
No problem 😀
You are right if you use the same settings. When using pulse trigger or movement to stack dimes, the heat has to be much higher to get the same penetration. So your test, if you did not raise the heat for the stacking method is not an even test. 1/4" is not a fair test either. As other said, that thickness deserves a 7018 stick - you can get very pretty stacked look and be way more structural as compared to your MIG tests. A proper heat setting is if you "don't stack" and you get burn through, then you know you have the heat to stack. it is all about the penetration. the pause or the movement to get the appearance of the stack allows the area to slight cool or otherwise control the heat. If you do not pulse or use motion, a steady stream will have a cold starting point for a bead that is perfect in the middle. In TIG, heat is controlled by the operator. Pulsing, triggering, stacking dimes is a viable method to control heat in the weld - from start to finish. NOT a fair test or assessment.
I shot a part two on a multitude of thicknesses, and did cut and etches. It will be out soon. Regarding some of your points:
Stacking tacks can’t be done with proper root fusion on 1/4 or 3/8. Even at 250a you won’t achieve good root fusion with tack welds. You must carry some heat. I used settings that were the same to demonstrate how bad performance is simply by not carrying heat and attempting to stack tacks.
On 3/8th plate short arc mig will outperform 7018 1/8th when it comes to strength to break towards the face, provided you run atleast 200a. 7018 tends to produce less consistent fusion start to finish than mig, which is the primary reason for this. Spray arc wire will significantly out perform the penetration of 7018.
You can’t burn through steel that’s 1/4, 3/8th, or the like with typical welding processes. What you describe is possible on sheet metal, not on thicker plate.
The purpose of the testing and the video series is to replicate what is seen in motorsports and peoples welds, and that is 3/16th or thicker steel being welded with very low settings, to make a stack of dimes. Doing such things produces extremely poor fusion, and weak welds.
I think you’re a bit confused on what’s actually going on with the short arc mig process. The wire stabs the puddle, and shorts out. The short blows the wire apart, and then the wire repeats. When you weld with short arc mig and you progress forward, stop, forward, stop, (while letting the puddle rise) to stack dimes you will lose penetration in the root. The root penetration comes from the wire hitting as close to the leading edge as possible, because there is very little molten material present there. When you weld on top of molten metal the wire can’t hit the root through the molten metal. Doing such things may boost sidewall fusion but not root fusion. This is also why when you “ride the puddle” with mig you typically lose all root fusion.
I think you’re also confused as to how the welding processes function. Tig can achieve root fusion with a stack of dimes because of how the process works, you can literally see the root fuse. If you pulse with the foot pedal and do lay wire with tig you can have the same lack of fusion that happens with mig. The only thing that assures root fusion is high enough temps in the root. Anything a person does that can reduce heat input at the root will result in less fusion. Riding the puddle, pulsing at too low of values, circle e’s at low settings to make dimes, lay wire with pulse with tig, etc.
Virtually all of motorsports is welded with cold settings Inorder to create dimes with disregard to performance. Part two and the inevitable part 3 should clear up any confusion.
That off-road part was very clearly TIG welded. Almost all of these after market companies use TIG instead of MIG because it makes a prettier weld. And then there’s little to no spatter to clean up afterwards.
The only thing tig welded on any of the off road parts shown was the fill port and small drain on the diff cover. Everything else was done with mig, tig doesn’t produce that wide of welds. Very few off road companies tig anything because it takes 2-3 times as long and costs/competition is so cut throat that tig welding is uncommon. They use “mig like tig” because it looks like a stack of dimes however it’s far inferior to tig due to poor fusion.
How do I get good penetration with a flux Mig?
So flux core wire typically has more penetration than short arc mig. The main keys with flux core is to use a drag angle, proper settings, and use good wire (Lincoln nr211 or Hobart fabshield 21b). With some practice flux core can make really solid welds.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg I think I understand drag angle and I use settings found on the welder I am trying to learn on harbor freight wire. I’m not anything more than a farm and home shop welder but I want to be as good as possible.
"Politics" is a good word for it. Politics is anything that involves more than 5 people or more than 5 dollars. Believing you're not engaged in politics just means you're bad at politics.
I’ve never cared for the TIG look with MiG. With TIG, that’s the way the welder generally looks. Dip, dip, dip. It looks like that. If we use lay wire, it may not. It might look smooth - the way MIG usually does. I really prefer a smooth weld on MiG. You’re laying down more metal to begin with, and that’s never worse. I generally either go straight ahead, or sometimes stitch. And yeah, you do get that hesitation in the look. But that’s not why I do it. I believe you get a bit more penetration. Maybe I’m wrong. I haven’t made side to side tests and cut or broke them.
Same here, imho these techniques are just trying to emulate TIG with a cheaper process to upsell stuff. I'd much rather receive a MIG'd part with a lovely smooth bead
35 years of welding in both shop and field has taught me that every trick has its pros and cons, stitch welding , pulse , pulse on pulse are all useful in the right hands, running cold welds with undersized wire is a rookie mistake and produces the welds you demonstrate which didn’t even wash correctly and the part you used as an example looked like it failed due to maintenance issues like a loose fastener and excessive vibration.
The technique that gives the most pronounced stack of dimes with mig is called stitch welding and is first and foremost a means of controlling heat distortion , pulse is the modern way we do it most of the time now but all the industrial mig machines used to have a stitch setting .
You can stitch with a regular mig setup but you run .035 and add 10-20 % MORE HEAT! The method is to hit it, stop while advancing and then hit again within a second , you are letting a deeply penetrating puddle freeze and them lapping another 2/3 of the way over the previous, done correctly this will produce an even weld nugget with a medium root with very clean appearance and minimal spatter . It is slower and as was mentioned by another commenter , builds more stress from thermal cycling, but as long as you’re not welding pressure vessels and consider structural redundancy in your weldements you should be fine.
All correctly done stacks of dimes are accomplished by pulsing , the ripples are caused by flash and at least partial freeze in all processes , with 6010 you whip the rod to slightly vary arc length and with tig it can be accomplished with filler manipulation, arc length , pedal pumping or machine setting , but they are all allowing the puddle to cool slightly , more cooling , more pronounced ripples.
A tack weld is done with minimal penetration and a string of tack welds is garbage , stitch welding is done at voltages that would burn through if you were running stringers .
As a final word of advice, if you are not an engineer or highly trained and experienced fabricator, you have no business messing with failure critical welds , always build redundancy into your designs and if someone could get hurt or worse if your weld fails , you’re doing it wrong . For all you tinkering in the garage , making furniture or art or modifying your non hitch related bumper , just have fun , it’s really hard to demo even the crappiest welds in a decent fabrication .
I like the video and commend your effort but you are just showing how crap welds are made , I think a more appropriate title would be “ how not to stack dimes with mig “ or “ bad welding is bad welding no matter how pretty “ but your title got me to watch and babble in your comments , so what do I know 😂
I agree with a lot of what you said. The problem as I see it is that very few home gamers have pulse capability, or a machine capable of hot enough settings (well over 200amps) to achieve anything close to a acceptable weld on 1/4in plus steel without going straight in. The video is aimed at people with average mig welders, which is most people. If you’re running hot settings with short arc the puddle is too liquid to achieve a significant peak and valley stack of dimes. If you maxed out a 200amp class machine on thicker parts you’re losing root fusion if you try to make it visually appealing. No home gamer machine is close to being able to run settings that would blow through 3/16th+ steel if they don’t stitch. This is both unrealistic to the real world and not what most motorsports fabrication does.
Pulse and manipulation will never give more fusion on a root than the machine is capable of running straight in. A 200 amp might welder will have minimal root fusion on thicker plate, pulse and manipulation will only keep the fusion the same or lower it. Using say a 300amp machine with pulse could definitely improve root fusion over a 200amp machine, but the heat input capability is higher, so it should be more. You’re correct that this is a far better way of tackling a visually good looking weld with proper fusion, but again this is not something most people can due to lack of welder power and not what most motorsport companies do.
If you look at most of the off road parts, and motorsports in general they are full of welds exactly as pictured in the video. They are not flat pulsed ripples, or manipulated spray arc, they are either big circles or big stitch motions with cold settings. I could literally make a whole hour long video on just pictures of motorsports parts welded this way. Most of the time it’s done without pulse, at reduced settings, and many of them use .024 wire which makes it easier to achieve the look. Rookie mistake or not, unfortunately that’s what most do. Look in a jegs, summit, or off road part manufactures catalog, and you will virtually never see any spray arc, dual shield welds on anything 1/4in plus. Tig is also extremely uncommon on anything over 3/16th.
If a person has a 250 amp+ class mig machine they could possibly tackle making dimes with mig on thicker steel. Anything less than that and it’s a losing battle. The off road part in the video is one of 10 parts for the suspension setup for jeeps, and every part is welded exactly like that. No penetration, single pass, 1/4inch to 3/8th steel, short arc mig, stack of dimes. All of the welds will fail exactly like that part if hit, because they are all poor in actual thickness. I wish this was just a one off or one company issue, but this is universally an issue. Not to mention the part in question was on a Jeep that was used for slow speed use, vibration didn’t kill it. A bunch of hits by rocks is what split it, and I can attest to it since I am running the updated version of it and it hangs so low it hits on everything off road. The companies out there refuse to use dual shield, spray arc, or using better welding practices, which is why I no longer buy pre welded off road parts.
So at the end of the day I believe it is possible to make a visually appealing but proper fusion mig weld, but if it’s on 3/16th+ material it’s best to avoid doing anything to make it look a certain way unless your using a 250+ amp machine and you have tested the performance. Since very few people have that setup, it’s best to avoid any emphasis on how something looks and instead focus on the actual performance.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg, I fabricate custom rigging for heavy lift in the maritime construction industry, I guess it’s made me a little arrogant , the beer probably didn’t help this problem much 😂
I read your response and rewatched the video with way less beer and I apologize, it’s an excellent video and you cover everything, including when cold lapping is appropriate, like art and furniture, both things I like to do at home .
You really break it down well and I agree with you 100%, I’d be happy to delete my comment if you want, I don’t know how things work on you tube , I’ll leave it with this retraction if it benefits you.
Anyone else reading this, take it from a pro, Greg is giving you the straight dope on this issue , cold lapping critical parts subjected to vibration and impacts is total bs and the makers of these parts should be ashamed .
Only thing this cranky old welder would like to see is the pretty dropped dimes on the second piece done with more detailed weldement preparation, if you ground a bevel in the vertical, 2/3 , leaving a 1/8 heel and turned your volts up and wire down , shooting it right into the root until it just laps the edge of the bevel , stop , advance , repeat I bet you might get decent strength and the trendy aesthetic shows like monster garage got in everyone’s heads.
Great video, you’ve got my sub and sorry about the pro guy beer babble
Great video! No stacking )))))))))))))))))))))))) for me! Take care!
From what I see at lot stack of dimes looking welds are either tig or stick.
The ones that are strong and functional definitely are tig or stick lol.
A close analogy is buying a car based on how good it looks. It may be shiny, but that doesn't mean it will do what it is intended for, such as getting you from point A to point B without breaking down. I have said giving me 10 cents worth of work (Stacking Dimes) deserves 90% of the price to be dropped off. How many times have you bought something and found out it had built-in failure? It seems that in today's market sellers are always looking to sell you something that they want you to replace due to failure so the money continues to come in...it is more like making the buyer a cyclical dummy if they buy that same item again.
Could you possibly do me a favor? Could you side-by-side this test with spray transfer and dual shield? I run into people on the daily that do not believe that they are any stronger than a good weld. They are usually the farmers who I’m working on the crap that they welded and broke Lol
I will get to that for sure, it might be a bit. I will be doing some dual shield testing shortly with .035 and .045 wire. .045 dual shield with a solid welder will outperform short arc significantly due to penetration in the root. Spray arc as well. I definitely will test all of that 😀
@@makingmistakeswithgreg I run reals of dual shield. I was doing some repair work in Wisconsin and getting AirGas to order some in was a nightmare lol
@@larryvollmar8763. I have been fortunate not to have to deal with airgas, but I have heard they are terrible. I know one guy I welded a bunch of stuff for had a mig machine and he paid 350$ for a little 20cuft bottle of c25 from airgas, and this is 3 years ago lol. I deal with matheson, advanced welding, and welder supply in Wisconsin.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg for 150 bottle of acetylene 15 miles from my house is right around $159. If I drive 52 miles down the road to a mom and pop shop $47. Same thing for oxygen and mig gas. They used to be the go to place here for all your welding supplies but they’ve priced themselves so high the small guys can’t afford to use them. Only the big factories buy gas in supplies from them.
Central McGowan is a pain to deal with in St Cloud Mn ,I go to the one in Little Falls instead ,customer service is excellent at that location!
Might be nice to weld three test pieces that visually look the same (size, dimes, etc.) using MIG, TIG and stick, and then compare the results. This way the only difference would be the process.
I will likely do that shortly. The hardest part of such a test is that it is so easy to make a certain process win. The truth is tig is the most consistent welding process (if all welds are done with equal skill) and consistency is what gives strength. You are assured consistent root fusion start to finish on a fillet weld, something that all other welding processes can’t achieve. You don’t have issues with weld defects either. The main draw back is it’s seriously slow and virtually useless outside. Anyway I definitely will tackle that soon.
I have been a stick welder my entire life. About 45 years ago I tried a mig welder for my projects. The welds looked great but they were strictly superficial and they broke all of the time. I went back to stick welding and never turned back. Don't get me wrong, mig welding has it's place and I'm sure that the mig welding equipment has come a long way since I tried it, but stick welds have never failed me. I get excellent penetration with a stick AND the "stack of dimes" appearance that everyone strives for. The best of both worlds. Thanks for the video!
I was always under the impression that stacked dimes was a by product(side effect) of the “dab” adding filler rod while doing TIG & The slight pause with the torch to keep the weld pool flowing as it loses heat to the room temp filler rod.
Trying to recreate this aesthetic from a MIG is just putting the cart before the horse. If you want stacked dimes grab a TIG, stop trying to fake it with a MIG. If a customer is asking for that look, either educate them, send em down the road or go learn to use a TIG.
Maybe I’m wrong, been embarrassed by my ignorance before so i’ll let the community correct any misgivings on my part.
Most welds are not stress to their limit, so stacking dimes is OK. Structural fabrication to code is not tolerant of the technique. I've been an AWS D1.1 certified welder. No weave or manipulation is allowed. If a larger weld bead is required, a larger electrode (in my case, dual shield wire) is specified. I've had welders tell me that it's wrong if you don't stack dimes. In addition to learning on the job, I've had a lot of formal training.. "You don't learn to weld in school, you learn on the job" All the best welders I've worked with wen to school.
Weaves are like fingerprints. Dont forget that when something fails.
Only time pulsing a MIG trigger makes sense is for sheet metal, overhead. Other than that.. set your welder right girls and boys.
100%
My neighbor is a fabricator, he rarely does a continuous bead all he does is stacking tacks. He doesnt like it when i make fun of him nor does he understand the difference in penetration.
If he is stacking tacks he is definitely going to make some super weak welds lol. Tell him to weld two joints, one continuous and one with tacks, and bend them both. I think he will find out in a hurry the difference lol.
You just shouldn’t use short circuit mig on structural things over 5/16” thick
Generally speaking I agree, however believe it or not a 200amp mig machine with clean steel can equal and surpass the strength of a 1/8th 7018 in actual testing. The main limitation with short arc is you can have 10 welds that literally look the same but have completely different roots and fusion. That’s a serious problem because the way the weld looks with mig is not as good of an indication as say a 7018 weld. In the video I used 3/8th plate, but the results would be the same on 1/4. I will actually be testing that shortly in a part two.
i am not a fan of the stack of dimes look i like a smooth bead and i like to run a little hot
Yeah imagine if some one does a weld like that stack of tacks or circle e's on a seatbelt bracket......not good.
You would be shocked at how many people weld with too cold of settings just to make something look a certain way. It’s sort of an epidemic in the off road world, I bet 80% of all the aftermarket parts on my Jeep that I didn’t weld have no fusion. The only reason they don’t break is due to the fact most people never actually use them off road.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg a great deal of after market landrover parts are put together in exactly the same way....I learnt to weld after realising most chassis work in my area was pretty poor....mine wasn't much better originally to be honest but atleast it cost me less to do it.
First off most of what you are talking about is tig welded.
Second of all the right process and weld decided by the engineer is what you use.
Third turn the damn amps up and penetration is not an issue.
Stringer welds are always better for structual with an overlapping weave pass.
I think you missed the point of the video. Motorsports welding focuses on how a weld looks, not the performance of the weld. Most of motorsports welding is not done with tig due to cost and slow speed. It’s also done with zero engineered drawings or typically any welding code. People try to mimic this style of welding in their own work and that’s a mistake (I believe). You can’t achieve a stack of dimes with short arc Mig on 3/16th+ steel without a loss in penetration over a stringer weld run with proper settings. Short arc Mig also has limited penetration capability, after a certain point it simply won’t penetrate anymore regardless of settings (until you go to c10 and do spray, which is not done virtually at all in motorsports). The part two video which will be out soon will make things a bit more clearer and cover far more tests.
There a number of your tests you are breaking the weld itself, not the the fusion to the welded material itself. Also, you are breaking the weld by pulling in the weakest direction. Welds are never meant to hold in the direction that you are pulling them.
Welds often experience stress in every direction. I am not sure why you think welds are only meant to hold in one direction. Welds on a trailer or truck experience vibration and loads from every direction. Engineering is used to design something that puts loads on welds in a way they are strongest, and/or placement of welds to maximize strength. Sometimes this isn’t possible, compromises must be made.
Stacking tacks/cold dimes will only be strong when stressed away from the face. That is not something you want. Effectively by running cold settings you are increasing the effect leverage has to break the weld, and you’re effectively reducing the weld throat depth. Both of these aren’t desirable. Not to mention you are risking sidewall fusion issues. The fatigue resistance of joint, its ability to handle vibration, etc are all sub par with cold welds.
You also must understand virtually everything a person welds at home is not a brand new engineered part designed for strength. Often times the material prep (or material itself) is poor. The difference root fusion makes can be the difference between a lasting repair and a failed one.
1:40 Bias.
If people want the stacked dimes look they need to buy a tig and put the time in to become a real welder. I cant stand want to be's who know nothing try to teach others. Mig is a fun, fast & easy method of welding but you must learn to tie in beads and get the penitraten. Well that's true with any process but more so with mig. I would rather have a couple of less pleasing looking welds that hold than pretty looking ones that fail. Not that these welds are really pretty to anyone who knows anything about welding. Multiple passes tied in with a solid root and bevels... you can put together 2 in plate with .025 wire on a d11 dozer without issue. But you can not take shortcuts.
Unfortunately the motorsports industry really made a point to make pretty welds with mig and not properly fused ones. I think the stack of dimes can be cool on a smoker or something for simple visual appeal. For anything that needs to hold together it’s a fools errand. In the part two video that will be out soon I really go in depth with it with cut&etches along with more tests. Needless to say it doesn’t get better for dimes over a stringer in that video lol.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg I can agree for sure pretty does not always mean quality. I think nothing looks better on heavy plat than multiple tied stringers. I do not even like a weave for a cap on stringers. I like to see the strength in the weld and know I can rely on it. I have built industrial equipment, to earth moving equipment repair too high PSI hydraulic lines to front suspension to mufflers and sheet metal work. There is a place and technique forms of welding. But I pride my self on my stick welding skills. Anyone can put two pieces together with a mig. Or wire welder. I hate when people that say or refer to mig and weld with a gasless flux core. O they not even realize mig stands for (Metal inert gas) welding. I hate it as bad as people calling firearm magazine's clips.... Man do I really hate that. Keep on setting them straight!!!!!!!
Tak tak tak , you have shit, lol . I would say the operator used poor pulse settings on the factory piece.
Definitely could be. The fact all of the repairs and visual evidence lead towards there being poor fusion, and then cutting it open to see exactly what i suspected, shows how visually appealing doesn’t mean crap lol.
Stacking tacks is not stacking dimes by any means and it’s blasphemy to claim it is
Doing circular pattern like with arc welding you’ll look alot like stacked dimes if done right
And the original reason for it being done that way in the beginning is mig welding was just becoming a common thing when we started and we came from doing….. you guessed it arc welding being the best and most common form of welding
In part two I make multiple welds that look like perfect stacks of dimes, without doing tack welds (one continuous weld). The performance is still far below running settings that are appropriate. I also directly compare the penetration of 6010 with a stack of dimes to short arc mig, 6010 has excellent fusion, mig doesn’t with settings that make it possible to make “dimes”. The problem lies in the fact proper mig settings make it impossible to stack dimes with mig, the weld pool is simply too hot and self levels too much. Running colder settings looses penetration, which can be a serious problem.
@@makingmistakeswithgreg ya problem is people see the regular welding pattern and don’t realize that mig is a completely different demon than your grandpas old tomb stone
Stacking tacks has a place and that place is a muffler pipe repair
On thin wall pipe and poor material like exhaust, you definitely have to do what you need to.
Just plain silly to have a "pretty" weld on a suspension piece that gets covered in dirt and no one will see...unless your jeep is upside down maybe!
I agree. The sad thing is a vast majority of Jeep parts are built the same way. The simple fact that many of the off road Jeep parts are welded with short arc mig, and not spray arc or dual shield (despite being thick steel) tells you a lot of how much they are concerned with strength. That bracket in the video is one of a bunch for that high dollar suspension, and every one of them appears to have very little penetration/fusion. That particular bracket sits low enough that it hits on everything off road, which is why the deficiencies in how it was welded became an issue. To me perfect welds are practically impossible, but 1/8th or less of fusion on 3/16th steel that had a bevel is pretty lousy.
@23:47 your torque test is great, but the way you calculate (or don't calculate) results is in error.
If your meter reads 104 ft-lbs, that's the same as your beautiful 104 lb mistress standing on a 1 ft long wrench. But, if you put the same wench on a 1 ft long wrench hooked to another 1 ft long wrench, her 104 lbs makes 208 ft-lbs torque. That's as much work as your wife can do with only one wrench. That's why you married her.
If your torque meter is 1 ft away from the test weld, double the readings.
2 ft-lbs = 2 lbs x 1 ft = 1 lbs x 2 ft = 4 lbs x 6 in
I completely understand that and I have mentioned that in previous videos. The purpose of it is to reduce the torque put on the adapter to be able to stay in range of the torque adapter. It’s not designed to be scientific, but a comparison amongst test pieces on my end. It is extremely consistent and works as designed, but the hard numbers are not of much use to other people. The main goal is to put a number to how strong something is to break, because originally I just broke them with the breaker bar, and said which one was stronger. I realized that without an actual number people could see and the error in my own “feeling” of torque, the reliability of measuring would be nothing. The contraption is very consistent, and without a doubt shows the difference between two or more tests. It definitely works in conjunction with inspecting how a fillet weld broke to determine if a weld is decent or not.
I hope Boeing doesn’t employ the DIME STACK welder’s
Yeah I don’t think you will see cold stacks of metal coming to Boeing anytime soon lol.
Stack'in tacks, i.e. the Pakistani method
They will do that with a homemade rod on a chromoly axle shaft all day lol. I watch a ton of those videos and I always wonder how long it lasts before failure. I always get a kick out of the literal transformers janky wired straight to a power pole they burn rods with lol.
I found the video very mixed in usefulness. Not consistently isolating variables- leaving tests of 3/16" piece of formed plate to 3/8-1/2" little plate coupons seems likely to bury any evidence that might be forthcoming of a head to head test. I've welded for a few decades and the info here is not reflective of an actual 'apple-to-apples' comparison. Locations of full penetrations (shown in vid) are ignored for poor joint prep; conclusions aren't uniformly valid in my experience. Not well researched or presented welding video in my view.
There is a part two that is coming out shortly. It should put all your concerns to rest. The simple fact is that short arc mig settings that are appropriate for the material thickness create too liquid of a puddle to stack dimes. Inorder to stack dimes you must reduce settings, and the reduction of settings creates extremely poor fusion in the root, and weak welds.
As far as poor joint prep, what are you referring to? Beveling the plate is not typically done by motorsports nor by the home gamer. Beveling the plate will not increase root fusion with cold settings, it will only increase the depth the weld exists. The settings that make it possible to stack dimes will not fuse a beveled plate better at the root. That is unless it’s a knife edge bevel along with an open root, which is again not common in motorsports. Not to mention a knife edge bevel will only increase fusion in the top plate, not the base plate because it can’t be beveled.
In video part two I will cover cut and etch, 3/8th plate, 1/4 inch plate, doing continuous welds (stacking dimes) and a bunch of other things. I am sure there will be a part 3 where I run the settings and the techniques people say are the magic solution, so if you have a suggestion of voltage, wire feed speed, wire size, material thickness to achieve equal results as just running a straight weld with proper settings, please let me know.
Considering you showed a broken weld of thicker material without proper beveling. And considering your whipping welds show heat is way to low. I lost a ton of respect for anything you have to say.
Couple things here:
“Proper beveling” as you’re likely defining it doesn’t change how much short arc mig penetrates, it changes how much weld exists beyond the 90 degree intersection of where the plates would meet. The exception to this is if I had run a wide bevel, open root, which in that case penetration is of no concern since it’s open root. Not to mention your “proper bevel” will do absolutely nothing to increase fusion in the base plate that is still unbeveled.
The test is demonstrating what can happen if you weld on a typical fillet weld and change how you manipulate the weld pool. It’s a replica of what Motorsport welding does and why you don’t want to do that. I even included a real world example with clearly failed welds, that shows how a weld that on face value looks good, can be trash.
You say you lost respect for what I have to say, did you even watch the video? Multiple times I described a) that it’s undesirable to focus on making welds look a certain way over trying to make strong welds. B) explained what can happen when you run cold, and gave an actual demonstration c) showed a real world example of what happens when you don’t use proper settings. Do you disagree with all of these things? Not to mention the first weld I broke was done at approximately 200 amps, and would have been far stronger that most Motorsports welds (especially the one on that suspension component).
Either you completely missed the point of what I was trying to explain or you don’t understand what’s being presented. The video is geared for an average person with an average mig welder, and replicates what motorsports in general does. If a person has access to 250+ amp machine with pulse, the results could be significantly different, but are not inline with what will be found in motorsports manufacturing across the board.