Directional Bass? Setting Center & Surround Crossovers To 80hz or Lower w/
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- čas přidán 22. 08. 2024
- John Hunter from REL joins the podcast to discuss their subwoofers and setting up speaker crossovers.
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I think there is a lot of high frequency components in that sudden impact transient he mentioned in the early part of the video and that's why you can immediately detect the direction it comes from.
As for the center speaker, I did make mine slightly smaller than the mains but it is still 7' tall so I don't anticipate any problems. In fact if I had it to do over the mains would probably also be 7' instead of 9'-8". That way the mains wouldn't be extending above and below the AT screen.
Yeah but you didn't just not get those sounds when using bass management. The point of a crossover is that both sides are equal in level and no sounds go missing. The only thing that changes is you are doubling up your bass sources and adding some distortion to your speakers. I am a fan of lower crossovers (60 Hz) but I wouldn't run double bass without a measurement-based approach.
I get what he's saying about the tactile impact maybe being directional, but I feel that only really makes sense in free-air settings.
In confined spaces, ie listening rooms and theaters, the pressure-waves are contained and bounce all over the place, and there's no guarantee the transfer of energy would hit you from the point of origin the first time.
not if you port the walls with intention then you can have SPL that acts like a free air system with a closed space
Yup! I have a Rel Q108E and have my speakers set to full range.
Good conversation. My recommendation is to try them both. Newer AVRs have an option to send full range to center and surround even in “small” mode. In these newer AVRs “small” means full to center + surrounds and then activate the subwoofer at the crossover point.
Setting to large treats the center + surround crossovers as HARD STOPS, where the center + surround will not play below the crossover and the sub picks up at the crossover.
So you are telling me a pair of $3000 fronts can replicate 60hz better than a $750 subwoofer (let alone a pair of them?) no way.
Try it and listen for yourself. I’ve tried both and unless you are running $150k of Von Schweikerts as your center + surround, you should be in small mode.
Thats why I'll be sticking to 2.1ch for the foreseeable future.
John Hunter definitely knows what he's talking about (except for the "pitch altered" part, though I believe he means "frequency limited" so no big deal). I was amazed to find that so many supposed audiophiles set their speakers to small. First of all you get the issues John mentioned in this video. Secondly, that poor subwoofer, asked to reproduce the low frequencies of all your wimpy small speakers. That makes the sound way too boomy and not in a good way. I'm also not a big fan of horizontally large center speakers, as that makes the sound image from the center channel too wide (for lack of better description). I mean, you gotta work with the constraints of the home so I get why they exist, but that doesn't mean I gotta like it. Of course the only way to get perfect center audio would be to have an acoustically transparent screen and put 3 vertically oriented speakers behind that (might as well construct a baffle wall as well). Sadly not everyone can do that. Hell I can't even do that.
A quality subwoofer only sounds boomy because of setup problems, not other speakers and bass management.
@@matsudakodo Not true. The subwoofer is being driven way more often that the sound mixer intended for it to be. Ideally the sub should be set at 95db for reference level whereas the other channels are 85db. At least in theaters, maybe wimpy home theater systems have wimpier rules? Anyway that makes the bass from your wimpy speakers that can't handle it on their own 10db too loud. If you can have an independent sub for each speaker, or at least your front speakers, then none of this is an issue.
@@GameSack my subs reach 120 dB without boominess. It is *all* about the quality of the subs and their setup. Also, independent subs is not the way to the best bass. Understanding phase relationships caused by room modes is the key.
@@GameSack "Vertically oriented" speakers have (in most cases) a wider horizontal dispersion than a typical "horizontally oriented" MTM centre speaker, regardless of how large it is, mainly due to acoustic lobing issues with toppled MTMs. Also, a well-designed large subwoofer will have no problem being driven beyond the levels you're suggesting. You're better off with two 18" subwoofers that are well integrated into a system than multiple 10-15" inches placed in every speaker in the name of "3-D sound." You'll probably hear a difference in the latter, mostly because of poor integration.
I’m glad my Focal Choras have matching 6 1/2” midrange drivers in the center channel to match the towers and it has 2, where my towers have one. It doesn’t have the base drivers but never do I feel like they center channel is lacking. Focal opts for a larger 6 1/2 driver for the mid range versus many manufacturers 5.25” driver designs… the voices have a more gravitas sound to them never small sounding. Panning between channels is excellent.
Have John comment further and clarify his comments with solutions to the THX 80Hz xover that is widely implemented.
That's exactly what I was thinking
How to get a 3d setup? What settings should you use?
I feel that this approach is too often done without a measurement-based approach and therefore a user wouldn't know where the phase problems in the response are resulting from multiple non-integrated bass sources.
Yeah, not to mention this way your speakers will (more than normal) struggle with uneven sound travelling around the room. Each of your 5/7/9 subs will now not have the support of the others in combatting room modes and negating standing waves. And you'll probably be placing bass-drivers in places they don't work well in general. This seems to introduce more problems than it solves, and would only be a good approach for highly specialised rooms.
@@TokeBoisen exactly right! I'm sure Rel can set up a decent 2 channel room, but I certainly wouldn't listen to their advice WRT a high quality home theater setup
Thanks for the lesson
Cool info, especially hearing it come from Rel
So what crossover would you recommend for all channels shane? Running a 5.2.2 atmos setup. 2 subwoofers and 2 height speakers directly above listening position.
Yes, I did not understand what he meant. Do I set the front speakers to large full band as they were calibrated from Odyssey, or do I set them to small ?
If you have a subwoofer, most consumers should never have their speakers set to full range. How many people truely have amplifiers, and speakers that can play flat down to 20hz at adequate volumes? Most decent subwoofers can with ease. So why not let them? Now which exact frequency you chose to crossover at, I agree, every room is different and 80hz may not work for all. It is a good starting place if you aren't sure though. 🤔
@@1FastGXP how much content have you watched with John Hunter discussing this topic?
He’s an expert but yet you have contradicted everything he has said in this and previous videos and articles.
@@caballerosuave he's one guy, spewing their marketing lingo acting like they figured out something contrarian and EVERY single audio expert and subwoofer maker has it all wrong. What he's saying, he's spinning it but you get the exact same immersion and impact in a properly bass managed system.
What he described is not mutually exclusive, in any way shape or form, to the way REL sets up their subs or with the crossover used lower than 80hz. He simply described a well set up system which you can get exact same or better with typical and proper bass management and 80hz crossover. LOL. Typical marketing.
@@caballerosuave I've watched quite a bit tbh, and as knowledgeable as he is he's a business man too. Trying to sell the high level connection REL way. If running full range is the correct way why don't more subwoofer brands, AVR manufacturers, and system installers recommend it?
While I agree in principal that the center channel should be full range ish, there are significant issues with lower frequencies in rooms, and these issues are best resolved with judicious placement and calibration of multiple subs. Positioning rt, lt and center images in their appropriate positions and running them full range is asking for all sorts of peaks and nulls and any number of undesirable room interactions.
As for the 80 hz crossover, if the subs are correctly placed (and volume and phase calibrated, with peaks digitally corrected) then crossing above 70 hz isn’t necessary or desirable. The subs will handle those frequencies and handle them better with more impact and accuracy than running speakers full range.
So it is recommended to set front, center and rears to large speakers? Please advise thanks ahead for your help
Would like to know that also. My Centre is definitely set to small currently.
@@lollythe1st howdy
Have not gotten a response.
If you get a response please send me information
I will do the same for you 🙂
I would say try it if the speakers have 8" woofers or bigger. Otherwise don't waste your amp power forcing the speaker to produce something it really cant (distortion+clipping at higher SPL)
Be careful doing this. I burnt out the capacitors in my Arcam receiver by going full range all around.
Yeah, is there a way for the left and right to replace the center channel and generate better sound than a LCR or for the left and right to support the center channel?
That's what I was hoping Atmos would have achieved as opposed to floating speakers from the sky.
Essentially, can we offload some of the burden off the center channel and use the speaker 40%-20%-40% as opposed to 10%-80%-10%?
No
@@therealshanelee It's a shame cause engaging the left and right would have been probably the largest gain a system can make especially if the front LR are towers.
Sure, just tell it you have no center.
@@matsudakodo Yeah, I've thought about doing that. Someone was talking about a 4.1 system delivering great sound.
I wish someone would actually test that and provide their opinion.
It would be hilarious if my system and 99% of systems out there sounded better without a center all this time😄
@@techsamurai11 if the center speaker is small and the L&R are fairly powerful, I think skipping the center would give a better experience, as long as you sit in the middle.
Very interesting. I have a svs sub dealing with all my bass for all the speakers. But I have an old REL STRATA III not being used. Would you agree that it could be used with my center connected high level? It would become a full range speaker/channel.
That would work.
So what's he saying here to set your speakers to Large with double bass/ LFE+ MAIN?? Why was this not followed up?
OK , I didn't understand what he mean , did he mean to set the tower front speakers to large full band 40hz ( lfe + main ) or what ?
Was wondering the same. He didn't advise an alternative to 80hz.
Set them to what sounds best?
It's more complicated than that, but if you just set to Large you will disable bass management and probably end up with a mess.
@@matsudakodo honestly, I have zero skin in this game and no opinion. I haven't done a home theater system for a good 15 years nor have a receiver. Currently I have a pair of rel subs in a 2.2 system for music only. I use REL high level and my small towers take the full range from the amp as well.
I am considering a minidsp as my next purchase, to take measurements with the umik, and to try Dirac, and DSP in general. Will also experiment with crossover between the subs and mains. Music may not pose the difficulties like movies would in full range for your mains as there just isn't a ton of very low frequency effects that will distort your speakers.
@@erics.4113 Kudos for wanting to improve your system. Hope you find a setup that works well.
So to 80hz or not to 80hz is the question
The answer depends on your speakers. If your speakers’ lowest freq response is 80hz, the answer is clear. If they are lower, you’d have to experiment with lower crossovers. There is also the consideration of whether the receiver supports channel crossover vs global crossover in which case you have to balance the crossover the speakers and choose your compromise.
Hi sir
👍
Wow, this guy is full of crap. If you have good response in your room with multiple subs, you absolutely don't need full range speakers in your LCR. In fact, but only can you crossover at 80 Hz, you can crossover at 90 or 100 Hz for all speakers in an atmosphere configuration, and get a great room response without directional bass.
You didnt listen to a thing he said...And guess what, Mr. "Audiophile". What do you think Dolby uses in the cinema? 80 Hz? EVERY SINGLE loudspeaker is set to FULL RANGE. Precisely for the reason the REL guy mentioned.