Charles T. Tart - Does ESP Reveal the Nonphysical?
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- čas přidán 21. 07. 2024
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Some claim their scientific study of ESP overturns the worldview of science. Should we take these startling pronouncements seriously? If so, what would it mean for events in the physical world to defy all known physical laws? Either there is something misleading about those events or something beyond those physical laws.
Watch more interviews on ESP: bit.ly/3aBeoIn
Watch more interviews with Charles T. Tart: bit.ly/2TNkYpf
I like the way that Tart cites actual, replicated evidence here. Standard physicalists should feel very uncomfortable with this. It takes the wind out of the sails of their endless chants of 'ad-hoc rationalisations', charges of it all resting upon arguing from 'ignorance and coincidence', and the like. The claim that we have 'zero confirmed cases of telepathy' is debunked firmly here - and I am no dualist. What we need here is more openness not more prejudice. In any case, insults are hardly counter-arguments. They are simply the outpourings of lazy thinking - and would be so even if the rejectors of ESP turn out to be right.
You can read these studies for yourself and you will find a lot of cherry picking. It's very easy to conclude even if you're not a statistician that his claims of statistical significance are wrong.
@myutubechannel That’s not quite true - it’s a little more complicated! No PSI experiments have been replicated by SCEPTICAL researchers. Prof. Tart mentions this in the interview as the “experimenter effect”. As he says, in PSI, the experimenter is part of the experiment! See marilynschlitz.com/experimenter-effects-and-replication-in-psi-research/
More importantly it is worth remembering the “Replicability Crisis” in MAINSTREAM Science eg. in a 2016 poll of 1500 scientists, 70% could not replicate the experimental results claimed by other scientists, and 50% couldn’t even replicate their own! In mainstream Psychology, the replication rate has been found to vary between 23% and 50%! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replication_crisis?wprov=sfti1
If ESP results were found in any other field of scientific research, they would have been accepted as conclusive.
Nr1Sgt Thank you for your reply. You are quite right to ask for caution here. Perhaps I should have been delighted that Tart at least _seems_ to know what convincing evidence should look like. My own past study of statistics (in the educational field) would be hard pressed to make a careful assessment, I am afraid. Like many, I rely on the opinions of experts. I would still detect much prejudice here, though, by which I mean too great a readiness to dismiss such phenomena on the grounds of (a) alternative statistical analyses that are rarely ever spelled out - the accusations are just supposed to be accepted - and (b) a more philosophical refusal to deny reality to any phenomena putatively not known to (or even knowable by) physics.
@@myutubechannel_nr1 From the link above.
Admittedly, this is a single case of a claim of paranormal events being widely accepted as true, turning out to be false as admitted by the claimants, but it is the only historically consistent element to claims of the paranormal.
Several eminent scientists, including biologist Alfred Russell Wallace (1823-1913) and chemist Sir William Crookes (1832-1919), became interested in spirit communication. Both claimed that they had scientific demonstrations for the existence of psychic phenomena such as spirits tilting tables. In 1871, Crookes attended a Fox-girls séance in London and reported: “I have tested [the raps] in every way that I could devise, until there has been no escape from the conviction that they were true objective occurrences not produced by trickery or mechanical means” (Crookes 1874). In 1888, the sisters confessed that they had produced the raps by cracking their toe-joints and that they made bumping noises by fastening an apple to a string under their petticoats and surreptitiously bouncing it off the floor. They tried to recant but it was too late. The cat was out of the bag. This would not be the last time an eminent scientist was tricked by a subject of psychical research.
@@theophilus749 A very thoughtful reply. If I may add my thoughts to it...
The burden of proof is always on the claimant. This is the foundation of science, and of how we progress in our understanding of the universe, at all levels.
From that humble beginning we can establish protocols, and procedures that enable us to increase that understanding with all the appropriate constraints against confirmation bias, prejudice, and even just plain old mistakes. The temptation to toss them aside based upon personal experience, and the desire for a narrative that we want to emerge as truth from that experience, can be overwhelming.
This dialog does disservice to the progress we have made through science by treating claims of paranormal events with the kind of tolerance, and politeness that should be reserved for opinions on television shows, books, or movies. To be blunt, what we think, and feel doesn't matter. Only the data, and the conclusions that it points towards is what matters. When that is no longer true, you end with a culture that shuns the experts, and seeks only those who tell them what they want to hear. Sound familiar?
The eastern sages were rudely interrupted by western science...
"Western science" accepted other things now nonsense and accept things previously considered nonsense.
You are absolutely great Charles T. Tart. I admire your resilience to the nay sayers.
Easy if Stuart Hameroff Orch Or is correct and given a Non-locality proven by Nobel Prize Laurets Alain Aspect and Anton Zeilinger (with Distant Quasars)! Telepathy, clairvoyance and Precognition are bound to be confirmed.
But as to psychokinesis I'm pretty confident it's rubbish as to reincarnation even if it exist I don't believe memories could be preserved. And it harms parapsychology to throw into one bag ESP and Schizophrenic childrens that claim to have last lives
"The effect is small... why is it so small?"
Imagine a thousand, a million years of human evolution - consider how it could grow.
The constraints of the rule-set.
If these abilities truly are demonstrable and repeatable then I don't understand why anyone would discount the results.
For what reason is this research being "ignored"?
The guy is just flat out lying. there are no quality experiments showing any evidence of any ESP.
Because it contradicts the whole cientific paradigm. It's not as simple as accepting the results and move on, a deep epistemologic and philosophical problem within science would emerge.
Also the fact that cience forces all of reality to be quantified, symbolic and explicit makes it very narrow in it's approach. Can something be true that is not possible to quantify, that is not able to be captured in symbolic language and cannot be made explicit? Well yes lots of things!
Arrogance and close-mindedness.
Before debunking any ideas about ESP, I would ask how long took humanity to get to modern chemistry from alchemy! If ESP is something real, we need to investigate all shreds of evidence in a scientific approach. We’re still in the alchemy stage of the psychic science.
Ryan Fakouri Alchemy had some shred of scientific experimentation, transmutation is real and happens in nature and in the lab. But psychic ESP poppycock has zero scientific base and has never been observed in nature.
Kuhn is a materialist true believer. It's a similar kind of mindset and attachment to his belief system as a young earth fundamentalist Christian true believer. There really is no point in presenting any solid evidence refuting their position because it will always be rejected out of hand - because they "know" they're right.
So the Christian true believer continues to contend that the earth is 6,000 years old, insisting that the mountain of evidence against this position is all wrong. And the materialist true believer continues to insist that the mountain of evidence demonstrating the reality of psi phenomena is all flawed. It's pointless. But I gotta give people like Tart and Radin their due props - for trying and trying!
Well I had some premunitions via dreams, but more of them are trivial and when the act happens I remember I dreamed it like a deja vu of some sort, also one day I started to write all of my dreams and had a big one in which I remember my friend getting 400 avg viewers on twitch, like 8 months later I saw it IRL, that one really scare the shit out of me
All those Art Bell radio shows aren't all crazy.
Prof. Tart is a pioneer of Consciousness research, before it became a hot topic as it is today. I remember reading his book on States of Consciousness back in the 1970s!
I think PSI is so challenging to our current materialist scientific paradigm, that it may never be accepted by mainstream Science. One major hurdle is the “Experimenter Effect”, (which Prof. Tart mentions). It means that results are not going to be replicable by sceptical researchers, so PSI claims become both unverifiable and unfalsifiable. It’s also worth mentioning the “Replicability Crisis” in MAINSTREAM Science, which has uncovered that according to a 2016 survey, up to 70% of scientists could not replicate results by other scientists, and 50% couldn’t replicate their own! en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replication_crisis?wprov=sfti1
PSI has come under a huge amount of scrutiny, and IMO, the results obtained in PSI research, if published in any other field of Science, would have been accepted as conclusive long ago. However, the controversy will no doubt rage on! Whether a sceptic, or believer in PSI, it is good that scientists such as Prof. Tart, and Dr. Sheldrake speak out and challenge the accepted orthodox view. That’s how progress happens!
Robert, you don't seem to understand statistics. Interview Dean Radin, he'll explain to you why the statistics overwhelmingly support ESP.
Michael, would you be so kind as to point me to one, or two of those studies? Thanks.
His look of incredulity is both priceless and unfortunate.
I dreamt the same dream as my BFF before I even know her. It profited that we will meet in like 6 months and she told be about the dream about the same time as the dream profited.
But wouldn't you expect, just by chance, deviations from chance?
yes, but it becomes harder to refute the phenomenon the longer this deviation is sustained.
Every mind/consciousness can work in a different way - we are different but at the same time one (connected). It’s how you perceive this reality. I think we’re in smart/conscious hologram that is expanding. Just open your mind and heart for possibilities - fear and time doesn’t exist.
I apologize for the short, unconstructive comment - I love you :)~
I forgive you, love accepted any time
Sma Harris stole Charles T Tarts book idea and title!, he wrote a book in the 1980s by the same title that Harris "chose" it's called Waking Up, I'll admit at times it's quite hard to follow at some parts, In parricular the first 50-100 pages, however the concepts are the same.
It would make even more sense for this phenomenon to one day have its qualities identified in the quantum fields with this operating in some of the smallest realms of existences of reality that we just cannot physically measure at this time.
More sense? It doesn't make any sense
@@Nr1Sgt I recognize what they are talking about.
@@vids595 lol, no the phenomenon wouldn't?, the quantum fields wouldn't?, the measurements wouldn't?, it in a sense challenging the existence of any gods wouldn't?, you making some sense of it wouldn't? or Tart's last statement in the video wouldn't? ... or maybe wouldn't, wouldn't?
You crash a grain of salt and get smaller chunk of salt, but after a certain stage, there's nothing left, no salt dust or anything solid, only force fields indicating something is still present there somehow.
@@1p6t1gms On a slightly removed side note, the idea that there is a woo component to quantum mechanics has been FALSIFIED. Additionally, no paranormal claims have EVER been successfully demonstrated under PROPER testing conditions, despite the unsupported claims of the guest..
Who knows. Maybe.
"precognition"
over the years I have had it happen to me so many times I have to know it is a true thing, a true happening, sometimes it happens to me weekly to week. I will think of some one I have not seen in 8, 10 years, then 2, 3, 4 days later I see them in a store or they show up at my door. it also happens to me with TV shows a lot. one morning I woke up dreaming about some one I have not seen in over a year. just know that this person is part of my family that never-never calls me. as I woke up I thought "why am I dreaming about xxxx". 2 seconds later the phone rings and it was her.
yes, precognition is a true thing.
@AAH Replies it's called "precognition".
You are Great
One simple and very well know example of mind over matter is the placebo effect.
if they really found the plane with remote viewing, why isn t it more widely discussed. . . i never hea rd of that. . .
because people can't relate to/handle it. the data is in, don't follow the masses, find the truth
Wow, I hear a possible ingress to the big problem of consciousness here. It's unfortunate that the words clairvoyance and telekinesis, have accumulated the baggage of so many charlatans over time, and evidence is almost exclusively relegated to the anecdotal. I can think of mechanisms for two types of "telepathy" that we all use every day, but take for granted as trivial processes. For instance, what is vocal communication except telepathy/empathy, with vibrating air as an intermediary medium. Another, is prediction of the actions or thoughts of an acquaintance, based on internal models of their psyche. As an example, I tend to even have internal conversations with the mental representations of my wife, and close friends, and can make real world predictions of their thoughts and actions, to varying degrees of accuracy, of course. Many times, I'll be thinking of a song, and my wife will start singing it, and vice versa... obviously a modest case, but these behaviors shouldn't be dismissed as merely mundane.
All matters exist in a bowl of soup of reality field.so they all are connected.it is like a drop of water in the ocean which is connected to the whole of the ocean..
This is the last interview that Mr. Tart was asked to participate in. We are still looking for him. We asked our most talented espers to find him and 51% agree that he is either somewhere in the Bermuda Triangle or a soft spot in Africa and his tail is sticking up. A present we are in a holding pattern waiting for instructions from the mind.
You forgot to take your pills.
To explore new possibilities in unknown science with a mind and opinion already decided and truncated, is the same as sending a blindman on a spaceship to discover the cosmos. This is by far the worst approach to any step closer to any relative truth that I ever encounter.
A more suitable name for this channel could perhaps be "Closed to truth". Any truth is relative to its own domain of known operability, and i will give a BIG emphasis on "relative", because we already learned the hard way what are the results of dogmatic systems of experiencing reality, during all of the known human history, in which science, in most of its materialistic domains tends to cling upon. No one would ever had invented the radio if one never wondered about the extra-ordinary possibilities in long distance communication, or we wouldn't had stumbled upon some of the most battling principles underlying the field of quantum-mechanics if we assumed the extra-ordinary was just a minor fluke. The Materialistic Brain is both marvelous and deceptive, because reasoning and logic in a purely materialistic fashion are flawed upon the lack of tools to reproduce or verify what is beyond its own domain of knowledge and understanding. One can postulate that also flawed upon the lack of tools to reproduce or verify these "minor" ESP effects observed and accounted for. If we could ask an empiric scientist the 13th century to explore, test and replicate quantum entanglement phenomenon with the scientific tools available at the time, it would most certainly also be considered as just as "worthless and garbage and nonsense". I hereby leave my most humble and sincere appreciation for the courage of Charles T. Tart. and his choice to dedicate his life to this field of research. If it wasn't for a handful of extra-ordinary people in human history, maybe we could still be living in a world where people would think the earth was flat and the center of the universe.
I like these discussions, though I am yet to be convinced there is anything outside of the physical.
Read or watch some studies by Dr. Dean Raddin. He has done some interesting experiments on consciousness.
A very simplistic way to explain his experiments is that he sets a double-slit experiment and he asks subjects to visualize the setting in minds. And results show that when the wave is concentrated on, it collapses. That is quantum physics 101, observer effect it is called, nothing new. But dr. Radin pushed the experiment even further. He this time set the subjects in a far more remote venue, maybe across the continent I forgot. But the idea is that the subjects were asked to visualize the double slit experiment even though they were not in the same room of the experiment. And the result is that the wave still responded to the attention of the subjects.
It doesnt give a solid seal that okay consciousness exists. But it does bring forth a new discussion inviting people to further speculate on what consciousness is and if theres any relation between the physical world and consciousness. And if consciousness exists, things beyond the physical do exist.
There're free lectures by him on CZcams. Take a look if you're interested in these topics. Nice day.
Metaphysics
Precognition is easy, cards can fall in any order, setting up rules make those rules special kind of order. Any rule is better than none, limits of precognition are set in advance.
Same goes with mind to mind communication, natural state of order is just a noise, but since all humans are kinda the same, similarities are rules and those make events happen more often than total chaos could produce by itself.
Randomness oscillate, this is why tests are inconclusive, but are always present as part of natural equation. That's why tests can't be reproduced, but it doesn't explain magical coincidences that should never supposed to happen.
In example, medium can shuffle deck of normal play cards and guess 20 in a row, without any errors. To guess one card would be a near magic, 20 is impossible, in all reasonable statistical scenarios. And things like that are real, no tricks involved, it's all done by process of meditative visualization. Those abilities come and go most of the times, depends on individual, it is very hard to maintain trans like state forever.
Only way i could understand those phenomena is influence over future state of mater that just doesn't exist yet. Future does exist as material substance, but it's a chaos of probabilities. So mind can enforce order in this noise, but to do that, it must overcome or determine paths of many atoms somehow. It's not just about desire or faith impossible things can happen, it's more about how real can visualization feel like for a good medium and this sensation is very hard to describe. Nature is not random, it follows discrete physical logic, maybe medium can somehow synchronize with natural drift and enforce small corrections, by pure power of imagination. I'm not talking about breaking the physical laws, just wonder what would it take to make something real, how many things must move or transform so final consequences can became real.
This is also the reason why great art exist, it's woven from magic strings existing in a place where dreams can and does became reality.
Telekinesis or no free will.. is there any other possibility?
Why is the effect small? Maybe because society discourages PSI and will label you crazy. Those who can won't, and those that could don't.
Also, do you believe human development is over after just a few hundred thousand years? Come back in another thousand years and we may be surprised how common (and socially accepted) these abilities are.😊
Not necessary so, machines can't do magic. Electric ships dream electric universe.
@@vids595 Hi. Most people have never read the research. There's plenty published in major journals. People just pretend it doesn't exist. That's were we are today in science. Denial.
Watch "New Experiments Show Consciousness Affects Matter ~ Dean Radin, PhD" on CZcams
czcams.com/video/nRSBaq3vAeY/video.html
@@johnbrowne8744 I could never understand the hostility mainstream science has toward parapsychology. They always say it's experimental error or fraud.
@@keithgreenan1850 Hi. Unfortunately its human nature. A kind of deep tribalism we all have. The team! You see it everywhere. Sports, science, religion, history, politics, families. I guess it's the way we progress as a species. Slowly....very slowly. We'll get there sooner or later. 😊
👻
Surprising the quality of shallow questions asked by Robert. IMO, he lacks even the most basic understanding of psi research over the last 100 years.
He probably has trusted the views and opinions of known skeptics without looking for himself into the research. Unfortunate. Skeptics today
are remarkably biased against psi phenomena, and it is worse when they insist on remaining ignorant of the scientific work done in the field. Many of
the scientific researchers have been leaders in their fields.
its not bias, its obvious to anyone with eyes ;)
a list for scientism believers en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_unsolved_problems there are many ESP experiments wich are verified as facts but not understood by scientism
🤪
Perhaps Robert Kuhn should change his channel name to “Closer to Skepticism” and partner with dogmatic-science fans such as Michael Shermer. Watch the brilliant Jeffrey Mishlove “Thinking Allowed” interview with professor Charles Tart to see how a good interview is done right: czcams.com/video/fQb1iEvIMsI/video.html
I'd prefer to see the referenced experimental data before assuming what Tart describes is actually "closer to truth". Words only go so far with extraordinary claims like this.
The chance that a normally fascinating and highly illuminative channel such as CTT will occasionally include a video on a bunk topic like ESP is non-zero, apparently. I just hope that said chance, if it must be non-zero, remains as close to zero as possible.
Nonsense..But in all fairness at least this chap is prepared to state, with a straight face, what he means by esp and is prepared to quote and stand by the research he has been involved with, unlike the other nonsense spoken on other interviews.
I don’t appreciate how the host refuses to listen because of his dogmatic views of materialistic science. Hey, journalist, did you hear the professor!? 1000s of studies. Thousands! Be more humble and listen to the man. If we told you there were thousands of studies done that have proven the existence of a new particle called a blarp, I doubt you would be so hesitant to believe it.
in what written religion you *don't* believe? pick any bigger one and it easily had more than 1000 works of literature about it, but that does not make it truth, or useful simplification of it. stay humble ;)
Martin Name There is a huge difference between a peer review publication/journal/study and something like the Bible, which is in large part a work of fiction passed down generations.
Despite the claims of this fine gentleman, NO paranormal effects have EVER been demonstrated under proper Testing conditions.
@William Braddell I never personalize debates in a negative way.. It's not about people but the ideas... Ancient beliefs derived from mysticism, like those presented here, predate recorded history..Until the last century or so, anecdotal stories and testimonials were sufficient to keep them thriving..TODAY, lacking ANY repeatable evidence in an age of scientific reason, it's the flawed assumptions derived from statistical curiosities that is offered for proof... Like the one you referred ..I'm a retired professional and life-long supporter of the scientific nethod. 59 studies?? That almost seems like a joke..THOUSANDS of coin flips ( As ONE example ) can STILL result in statistical deviations from the 50/50 expectation. This " Study" was justifiably assailed by Skeptics.. if it can't be repeated and verified friend, it's NOT science!
@William Braddell There's an old lament that statistics are the bastion of liars and thieves. .Whether true or not, how can ANY example of statistical analysis ( Including yours ) which has NOT been reproduced by any reputable group of researchers, be relied upon to claim proof of supernatural human powers! Such extrasensory abilities would violate virtually every pillar of modern physics.. But what the hell William, never let REAL science stand in between you and a good belief, right ? ? Right on.. Your homework assignment is to imagine HOW physics would be violated by this pseudo-scientific nonsense.. Give it a try my honorary, if not misguided, statistician- like, friend.
You don't know what you are talking about.
@@billnorris1264 You are literally saying "This can't be true, therefore it's not true." This is not a scientific position. You repeatedly keep claiming that such phenomena "violate virtually every pillar of modern physics" without demostrating this to be the case. The assumption that phenomena such as ESP "violates viertually every pillar of modern physics" is made on an incorrect view of physics and on unsubstantiated physicalist assumptions.
his wife's name before marriage was Lemon Cooper.
Then she got married to Mr. Tart.
I have ESP and can predict the future. At some point in the future someone will bring me a medium rare steak. Now three months from now when I’m at a restaurant and the waiter brings me a medium rare steak does that prove that I can predict the future and have clairvoyance? Because that’s the level of ridiculousness this guy is bringing to the table with his arguments.
Unless you actually engage the studies he's citing, you're not doing any harm to his arguments. You're just misrepresenting them. I'm just as skeptical as you, but your comment is lazy at best.
Nick W Yes, this is called sarcasm.
There is nothing paranormal in the world, everything is normal. And there is nothing outside physical reality, physical reality is a perceptual artifact.
hehe, smart. "outside"
Next: does unicorn poop prove fairy tales are true?!
Its such a wonder that you saw the entire video and still didn't listen
Aishwariya Sweety there is no evidence for anyone ever having any kind of paranormal ability. As such it is the same as belief in unicorns... and it doesn’t “reveal” anything.
@@JAYDUBYAH29 id rather that you looked at tons of research that has gone on where theres statistically significant differences from what one expects from materialistic mainstream science especially when it concerns matters like brains and consciousness. The fact that it happens at all should be a reason for us to look for a better scientific model. And paranormal is just anomaly things to normal science which have to be taken into account. I suggest you do look at some research papers by these researchers.
Aishwariya Sweety your use of the term “materialistic science” already disqualified you from meaningful conversation on the topic. It no doubt will surprise you to know I am familiar with all the stuff you’re referring to, from ganzfeld to radin to GCP etc.... none of it adds up to anything. If you want to impress anyone outside of the gullible psi enthusiast community, it’s simple: show one un-doctored video of one person performing any paranormal phenomenon reliably under laboratory conditions, and then have it reviewed, critiqued and replicated. There has never been one and never will be. Your penny ante statistical deviation and meta analysis gambits are extremely weak as evidence for the types of claims being made. Should all the parapsychology research continue by those optimistic they will finally find evidence? Sure. Go ahead. But let’s be honest about the fact that no strong evidence of the sort required to rethink scientific knowledge exists, and most rational people are confident it never will.
@@JAYDUBYAH29 by the fact that you just judged me to be not worthy of making qualified arguments with, because i used the term "materialistic science" (which is not an unreasonable term at all!? In fact its the correct appropriate term accepted world over) and still continued to make arguments is just lol. For your information, I'm one of those people who do materialistic sciences (theoretical physics, quantum gravity) and know many things on other fields of science esp. neuroscience to fully know the problems associated with consiousness and scientific methodology. Science is a dogmatic, social activity and our theories almost never represent actual reality. Look, I'm not here to convince you, its not my place or my job. I believe one must convince themselves. I just commented earlier because even if i had seen this video before i had taken the field of parapsychology seriously, i would have found that he made valid arguments (though i would've struggled to accept his conclusions). Anyway to each their own. Good luck.
he is saying cool stuff but i don't believe any of it....
Interviewer looks like a skeptical Jew who hasn’t accepted Jesus The Christ.
These videos aren't taking anyone 'closer to truth'. Instead it is 'chasing away from truth'.
One more such video, you will lose a subscriber.
sounds like you just watch this channel to confirm your preconceived notions about reality, pretty dogmatic if you ask me