Garate Anitua y Cia "El Tigre" - Winchester 1892 Copy
Vložit
- čas přidán 4. 06. 2016
- Spain was historically a major center of patent infringement in firearms manufacture because its patent law left open a big loophole: patents were only enforceable if the patent holder actually manufactured their guns in Spain. The major European and American firearms manufacturers were not interested in setting up plants in Spain, and so their patents were not enforced there, leaving Spanish shops and factories legally free to copy them.
One of the more successful copies was the "El Tigre", a clone of the Winchester 1892 lever action rifle made by Garate Anitua y Cia. Ironically, Garate actually registered their own patent on the design since Winchester hadn't bothered to, and that patent was enforced, since Garate did make the guns in Spain. Their copy was chambered for the .44-40 Winchester cartridge, known in Spain as the .44 Largo. This made it compatible with many of the revolvers in the country of American, Spanish, and Belgian origin, and thus quite popular with a wide variety of groups. Rural citizen militias and the Guardia Civil both used significant numbers of El Tigre carbines. They were also fairly popular in the United States, as the cost was substantially lower than a true Winchester. Many Hollywood films and shows used them as less expensive prop guns, especially for scenes where guns would be handled roughly.
Despite their competitive cost, the El Tigres were actually quite good guns, and served their owners well.
Being spanish and a former "el tigre" carbine owner I can tell you a few things. Gárate Anítua & C. was a quite large company. They ended up making bicycles up until the late 1980's or early 90's. The steel quality was quite good. The action was strong. Caliber 44 largo in Spain was not used commonly in revolvers. I owned a very decent copy that ended up as prop for a recent spanish western movie ("800 balas"). The only little quirk about them is that the chambers were not that tight or uniform in quality. The excuse was that, apparently, some .44 Largo with smokeless were a little stouter. However, the few lots of original spanish civil war era ammunition I have inspected, are just like any other 44-40 Winchester. Mine and many others I inspected were not as tight as a Winchester . Mine would shoot very accurately with smokeless but, there was no way I could shoot decently with black powder without substantial barrel fouling. The kind of modern smokeless 44-40 ammunition we get in Spain is very weak for revolvers and not fit for hunting (you pack a greater punch reloading with black powder because smokeless is not that easy to find nowadays). If you were lucky enough to have decent chamber, some people reamed it to .44 magnum successfully and shot the 300 gr Remington corelokt ammunition for hunting. It did spoil the cases but if you don't reload you're OK. These carbines were also very common with fish and game wardens, both public and private.
cool post, what is it like to buy a gun legally in spain and what are prohibited items?
Guns may be owned in Spain but only or legitimate purposes such as hunting, for sports (target shooting, clay or live pigeon shooting and IPSC) automatic weapons are only for the military and police users. All calibers are accepted up to a rifle .50 caliber that must have rimmed cases, all except NATO calibers in semiautomatic weapons (this includes 308W because of similarity to 7.62 x 51 NATO). There is no such thing as open carry etc for civilians, only concealed carry and it is very difficult to obtain one of those licenses. Silencers in cartridge guns are forbidden for civilian use, they are considered war weapons and carry hefty fines and possibly jail. To legally own a gun one must have a clean criminal record, fill an official form and ask for it. Gun safes are mandatory and, since recently, a separate safe for the ammunition in metallic cases and then only a reduced number of them in each safe. The police force that look over these gun maters are the "Guardia Civil", a very professional and dedicated military police. However, they lack gun culture and decent training. There is a limit of 6 rifled long guns, a similar number of shotguns (law changed recently), both used for hunting purposes; hand guns may be up to 5 or 6, depending on what grade license, for target or IPSC shooting. .22 caliber is forbidden for hunting (.17 HMR is not). Shotguns need to have a minimum length of 50 or 55cm and no collapsible buttstocks as well as revolvers for sporting purposes. Black powder guns may bo owned with no restrictions as to its number. All guns need to have a valid gunproofing stamp embossed in the barrel and have a serial number. Semiatuomatic guns used for hunting need to have their capacity limited to 2 cartridges (+1 in the chamber). Reloading of cartridges is allowed but one must apply for it and be qualified and trained but, components are increasingly difficult to come by. As for machine guns for civilians, only non functional guns, airsoft or paintball guns for recreation are allowed and can not be used in public (300+ penalty applies. Since recently also airsoft and paintball guns need to be registered in the Guardi Civil records. Bows and crossbows qualify as shotguns and must be registered too. Historic guns made before 1870 (aproximately) can be registered in a collectors book, fully functional, but can not be used for shooting however, and this is in my oppinion a contradiction, those guns that fall in this category (those which one should not really shoot but preserve) may be registered in this book and shot. In Spain the fundamental parts of a weapon are the barrel and the bolt. Hope this answers most of your questions.
everett higginbotham In Spain also guns that have a bayonet are considered war weapons and carry hefty penalties too. Walking sticks that have a concealed gun or stiletto or sword are forbidden weapons. Edged weapons used in hunting may be carried during the hunting season with a valid shotgun or rifle and their license. Some people like to finish wild boar with broad bladed dagger some 16 inches long ( a very dangerous practice). Spears in Andalucia and possibly in Extremadura (southern spain) were also authorized recently for night hunting in full moon on horseback. Night vision or thermal rifle scopes are also forbidden for civilian use.
+Miguel Ángel Simón Fernández very informative, thank you for the in-depth knowledge.
It's not too bad. Their main goal is to keep some record of guns to fight crime. We have to stress and be conscious of our strength, wether in Spain or the US. There are reasons to every measure and not all of them are stupid. We are not that bad off.
Ignorance of guns is widespread in Spain and our worst enemy are politicians and the Acts they pass. There are many other ways to enslave besides gun laws like the information we give away and education. They don't want independent people.
It's still better than a modern Winchester.
Sadly, yes.
Why?
Garate and Anitua obtained a license for making licensed copies of the Winchester 92 for military use, in the standard barrel lengths. When the contract expired (1924, IIRC), they made some cosmetic changes, sling swivels, and barrel length to avoid winchester suing them.
Seeing those markings, that Tigre was made between 1924 and 1927. After 1927 the law required them to have the new proof markings and a serial number.
The trapdoor in the buttplate is not usual, so it was probably from a Guardia Civil contract (only their railway service used it by then, until the Civil War). Not all of those were marked with the Guardia Civil crest, so there is not a sure way to prove it.
During the Civil War, most were used by militias in the Republican side, but ammo was not readily available.
Also, the 44-40 was never a popular cartridge in handguns, only in rifles/carbines. In pistols, the common ones where the usual small calibres of the time (.32 and .380), plus the "9 Largo" (9mm Bergmann-Bayard).
Actually, handguns have much more restrictions here than any other firearm, beginning that trend in that era (the excuse back then was "the anarchists").
Thanks!
Thank you for commenting. Good Info.
Ian, you have one of the coolest jobs in the world!
I was at a museum yesterday where they had a '92 on display in .25-20 reclaimed from the vehicle of John Ashley, a famous rumrunner and robber in the Palm Beach, Fl. area. It was in really good condition considering its age, probably because it sat in evidence rooms and later this museum exhibit.
Thank you for showing us this oldie . I do have an El Tigre and its a joy for target shooting. It keeps the nine up
to 50 Meters. I reload the 44-40 with.428 lead bullets 👍👍
As a Spanish civil war reenactor I would love to have an original carbine like this one. Great info!
you make some Awesome Quality Videos Ian. you really are making historical resources and its very appreciated.
I just restored an 1890 date model 92 winchester last year looking very much like this one, but with almost no finish remaining, the wood rotted off. I essentially took an empty barreled receiver and filled it with it's appropriate parts. It's now a wall-hanger on someone's living room wall.
Thank you very much for the video Ian, it was really cool to learn about this!
Cheers from Spain!
Great review, congratulations from Spain!!
I bought an El Tigre for dirt cheap at a gun show a couple of years ago that was converted to 44 magnum 44spl.and its been an amazing little gun.The original barrel length on these guns was 22 in.so the gunsmith did the conversion at the receiver end of the barrel and shortened it and the mag tube by 1'' and got rid of the sloppy chamber plus it looks a little better at 21''.I shoot full house 44mags in this gun and it has never once whimpered or failed to fungtion and it shoots very accurate.I have 8 real Win. 1892 carbines in 25-20 thru 44-40 and as much as it pains me the say it the El Tigre is every bit the gun that the Winchester and maybe a little more so if you see on for a good price dont hesitate to buy it.
We love your channel. We've been watching your channel for a while just wanted to tell you you're awesome.
the '' y CIA '' stands for '' & Co '' (y compania = and company). and thanks for another great video.
Back about 1986, while I was stationed at Fort Hood, TX, I wandered into a neighborhood gun store which was famous or infamous for it's lack of logically organized inventory. I always found it interesting and even fun, to go through the boxes of rifles and shotguns that were stacked haphazardly against the walls and in corners of the store. It was on one of the "gun safaris" that I discovered a new, still in the box (no surprise there considering where I was) "El Tigre" chambered in .44-40 WCF. However, it WAS NOT of Spanish origin, exactly. I was a product of Rossi of Brazil and had "gold plated" commemorative "coin" embedded on both sides of the stock. The "coin" had the profile of Chuck Conners on one side working the lever of his M-92 and on the other John Wayne "spin coking" his M-92. From your video it would appear that the carbine I held in my hands that day, was identical to the one you handled and described so well....Only it was Rossi. The owner of the store set a firm price of $500.00 on the Rossi because "it was special" due to the aforementioned commemorative "coins". $500.00 dollars seemed a bit steep to me, for ANY Rossi, and as a newly minted Army Staff Sergeant as well as husband and father I passed on it....But never forgot that little carbine. By any chance would you know if Rossi purchased the rights to the Spanish "El Tigre" from the remnants of it's original Spanish producer or from Winchester itself? Just curious. Thanks for the excellent video.
Thanks for commenting- i too have an El Tigre - 1919 ( i thought possibly 195 however i can't remember where I saw 1915 manufacturing started.
I just saw a couple being used in “Fistful of Dollars” was cool to be like “hey is that an el Tigre???”
Your Spanish is on point, Ian.
Fairly handsome gun in spite of it's age. I definitely wouldn't mind having one.
The ones used in rifleman had the barrel cut to 20" ..and big loops fitted..mostly used for saddle boot & stunt stuff.. see loads of these in spaghetti westerns.they made a rifle style with cap front stock and the carbine you show..all had 22" barrels
That is a hilariously convenient patent law for arms manufacturing. I would hopefully assume the laws have changed over the years. Great video as always!
I love it! I want it! I need it! Thanks Ian.
Very cool piece, and would still make a piece for anyone's collection, and still viable as a home defense piece considering it's 12 rounds in the chamber.
Very interesting!!
Hey Ian! Love the videos, but I've always had one question; Where you in the military? Or are you just a hardcore gun lover? Thanks and have a good one!
No, I have never been in the military.
I had one that had been imported from a South American police department surplus storage. Columbian IIRC. It had been relined & rechambered by the previous owner to 44 spl. I only owned it briefly before someone offered to triple my investment ...... i have always wondered how good it might have been. It certainly seemed accurate but I never really got to fully explore what it was capable of.
El Tigre was a fun show
Great video. Id like to see more spanish firearms. I own a spanish Onena 9mm largo bolt action
I kinda miss the two Deer of Judgement.
They're judging you for that right now.
Sir, I will gladly help support you. If you ever make it out to northern Iowa, I will step up and feed you to your capacity.. We even have some ranges here!!
Very reasonable value estimates.
Nice weapon, I have fired the 44 - 40 out of a pistol before but never out of a rifle. What was the trap door in the butt stock used for?
I don't think any one else mentioned it, but there are two variants: front sight on the front barrel band and front sight dovetailled in. The 22 inch barrel was carried over from the 1873 Spanish Winchester. The 73 was Winchesters patent as the assembled a handful of guns in Spain for army trials to specifically get protection. Winchesters agents were very active in trying to get a Winchester adopted by Spain but the .43 Spanish cartridge and the Remington rolling block won out in the end.
Ian, do you think you will ever do any videos on ammunition? I am a cartridge collector myself and I'm very interested in prototype / experimental ammunition.
I think it would be awesome to see someone with great knowledge like your self do a few videos. There doesn't seem to be many people with good ammunition videos on CZcams. Maybe you have you're own cartridge collection? I'm sure some other viewers would like to see some ammunition videos! keep up the great work Ian! Forgotten Weapons is my favourite CZcams channel :)
Nice
nice
I have one of the knockoff's. A Rossi R92 in .357 made in 2015. After smoothing the action and de-burring some sharp edges (done in one evening) it really isn't all that bad. Would buy one again anyway. Great vid as usual.
Ian i have a question. I noticed that this rifle, like the Winchesters holds 12 rounds even though its a SRC. Why did the originals hold more than reproductions even though(aside from Henry's and 1866 models) they are using the same cartridges? On the modern repros the carbines only hold 10 rounds in the magazine and the rifles hold 12.
I have one, the serial is 183**. It was cut in half for mechanical working display so the seller could show the client how it worked. Now I use it for teaching. Can anyone estimate the year through the serial?
Can you use 1892 Winchester 44 40 parts on an L tiger 44 40 18 92 rifle are they the same parts and changeable
Buy it ian :-)
When imported into the US wouldn't Winchester's patent be enforced and the items either sent back or destroyed?
Or was the issue thst they were imported a few at a time and not noticed?
The patents already expired when these were imported into the U.S. Once the patent expires it is open for anyone to copy.
A patent only protects for the first 17 years, unlike trademarks and copyrights.
I never knew you had a video on this gun! A very fascinating piece. I can't help but wonder if any of these saw use in WW2. Not much of a stretch of the imagination, considering the German use of Spanish contract ERMA EMP submachine guns taken from former Republicans in France.
Maybe, my grand grandfather was in the guardia civil corp and he had this carbine( now my father posses this carbine) his job was hunting the maquis and republicans who were scaping to france, this people used to use the same guns, I'm sure there was some skirmish during the occupation and they used this guns to attack the germans
I had one of these guns in my 20s many years ago. It was in 44 40 and very muzzle heavy. I took it apart to clean it and had to take it to a gunsmith to get it put back together. lol
Ouch, haha.
Forgotten Weapons drinking game: Whenever Ian says the word "provenance"
whenever Ian says "frankly"
"at any rate"
At least he hasn't caught 'go ahead and' disease. Every other gun channel can't stop saying it every other sentence. Drives me fucking mental.
Any time the patented Forgotten Weapons Precision Firearm Dissasembly Tool (a biro) is used or mentioned.
***** It's not 'brit' vs 'yank' the object is a ballpoint pen as you say, but it's inventor was a Hungarian called Biro, or fully: László József Bíró
Both names are appropriate.
y Cia is short for y C(opan)ia, as in "& company"
I have an antique gun with the tiger crest on your rifle.
Why does the saddle ring always seem to make a gun way more pricey at auctions.
They had a Model 14 Remington I was interested in, and it was at something like $1,100 before they updated it to say it had a saddle ring. Then BOOM, $3,000 easy
Magazine holds 12 rds? How long is that barrel, gotta be longer than 20ins. My .44wcf 92 holds 10.
I have one of these rifles
...is it better than a Smill&Wesson?
The Spanish 1884 revolver was a durn good copy of the S&W 1883 revolver and the only big external difference I see is the cut of the bolt notch on the cylinder.. No difference experienced loading and shooting either one.
Ken ibn Anak ...thanks...i find that kool..
Tenho uma garate anytua mas acho q é ano 1923 gostaria de saber o valor dela por favor
HI, I have a Tigre with serial number 13XX, more than one millón were produced. A rifle with no use, new with one hundred of years.
I can send u videos!!
Greetings from Spain
Ian if you keep looking at Eibar made guns you will ended up learning Basque.
hello. does el tigre have a gun?
Someone should really iron that table cover.
Huh. How many guns a year did a company need to make in order to keep the Spanish copyright? I could totally see a small machine shop setting up a copy-protection business by making, say, 1 gun a year.
Yeah, i was thinking that very same thing
My Rossi .45 LC with 24” half-octagon barrel is very nice.
In the opening credits to the tv show Mr Connors strides down the set firing from the hip about 12 shots in 10 seconds. Does this make the Tigre an 'assualt weapon'?
I am watching this here and not on full30 because on the resolution.
Full30 has just moved to HD capacity (that's why you can see the resolution options now). It will take a couple days, as the database is reprocessed and then these will be in 1080 on Full30.
" I could give you my word as a Spaniard. "
" No good. I've known too many Spaniards. "
Just a comment for the algorithm
Hello all, I'm Bruno from Brazil.
My boss have one copy Winchester 1892, almost identical to the El Tigre, the problem is, there is no markings at all, not even a single letter(there is some lines that remember a "F" but probably it is just some scratches) , what this could mean?
Thank you!
spaghetti weapons, cool
Red Dead Redemption anyone?
Was that the Winchester carbine? I assumed it was a '94
That weapon was used in our civil war by the republican side (sorry for my english)
chang?
first?
a1.000 meter shot with a 44-40, that's a shot i'd like to see!!!!
Spanish laws where funny. Either you bring us your manufacturing plants, or we are going to rip you off!
Interestingly enough, these rifles seem to have run past the changes in the law when Spain was finally pressured into not being global thieves. They seem to have gotten away with it with a bit of licensing and then some minor changes to the design. Tap dancing around those laws till the very end, ha.
I used to watch Rifleman as a kid. Now I know they used some Winchester rip-offs, it's all ruined for me now, RUINED I SAY!!