Indo-Aryan Migration: In or Out of India?
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- čas přidán 16. 06. 2024
- This is the second video in a 2-part series on the Indo-Aryan Migration Theory, sometimes mistakenly called the Aryan Invasion Theory, and the rise of civilization in India. To watch the first video, click here:
• Did Civilization Begin...
Mainstream academia says that Mesopotamia was the cradle of civilization. But did you know that there are some who argue that this is a false history, and that it was in South Asia that the world’s first urban society appeared? In this video, Dr. Miano takes a deep look into the ideas presented by Hindu teacher David Frawley, who argues that the world’s greatest ancient societies are cultural descendants of India. Are his claims in keeping with the facts?
Navigation
0:00 Review of Frawley's thesis
3:32 Argument #1
10:02 Argument #2
12:32 Argument #3
24:45 Argument #4
37:45 Argument #5
39:28 Argument #6
40:58 Argument #7
45:07 Argument #8
52:30 Concluding Remarks
After viewing, come back to the notes here for further information.
►DOWNLOAD Professor Miano's free e-booklet: "Why Ancient History Matters":
mailchi.mp/a402112ea4db/why-a...
►SUBSCRIBE to the World of Antiquity CZcams Channel for new videos that debunk unsubstantiated claims about ancient history.
We hope you enjoyed watching this #mythsofancienthistory episode about #ancientindia.
References and recommended reading:
David Frawley’s original talk:
• The Myth of Aryan Inva...
A summary of Frawley’s views by Frawley:
www.indoaryans.org/david-frawl...
www.scribd.com/document/84898...
More about Frawley:
rationalwiki.org/wiki/David_F...
timesofindia.indiatimes.com/h...
On Hindu conservatism and history:
frontline.thehindu.com/arts-a...
sci-hub.se/10.1163/156852712X...
Indian academics speak out about the History textbooks controversy:
www.friendsofsouthasia.org/tex...
Full scholarly critique of the Out-of-India hypothesis:
www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~wi...
Review of Asko Parpola's The Roots of Hinduism:
www.researchgate.net/publicat...
How the Vedas were compiled:
www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~wi...
How the Vedas can be used to reconstruct early Indian history:
www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~wi...
Public domain translation of the Rig Veda:
ancientvoice.wikidot.com/sourc...
Results of research on the light-skin gene in South Asians:
journals.plos.org/plosgenetic...
Professor Miano's handy guide for learning, "How to Know Stuff," is available here:
www.amazon.com/How-Know-Stuff...
Follow Professor Miano on social media:
►FACEBOOK: / drdavidmiano
►TWITTER: / drdavidmiano
►INSTAGRAM: / drmiano
I'm Indian as well and this Aryan migration denialism is tied very strongly to Hindutva Nationalist movement. This is also why you never hear this being controversial among Pakistanis, Afghans and Bangladeshi.
As a Bangladeshi I find it hilarious that people can say human migration didn’t happen in the Bronze Age, but Alexander, Timur, Afghans, Mughals all migrated in classical era. You can wake a sleeping person, but you can’t wake a person pretending to sleep.
@@mr.o8539 no one is saying migration, or any movements from any place to any other place, didn't happen. And Dr. Miano isn't saying that India is lesser, or putting India down, either. He is simply showing what is, and especially what is NOT, factual in Frawley's claims. This doesn't insult India, at all.
@@MaryAnnNytowl What do you mean no one is saying migration didn't happen? Frawley and Hindu fundamentalists definitely say that. Migration during Bronze Age most definitely occurred. I think you misunderstood my stance.
have you ever asked yourself how the aryan migration theory or invasion theory started. the basis for such an elaborate idea? how you ever pondered?
@@mr.o8539 Hindus are not saying migration never happened, migration for sure happened, and Frawley too knows that migration happened, but some people like to argue that migration happened on the largest of scales to such an extent that it was able to quite drastically change the indigenous cultures and civlizations of Ancient India. That would be incorrect, those who have peacefully moved down to Bharat have been absorbed by the culture present there and quickly become a part of what Indigenous India was already.
As you've pointed out, Frawley loves to criticise the biases and culturally bigoted roots of early Eurocentric theories regarding Indian history. And in some ways he's right to point to these problems. But instead of rejecting such methods, Frawley adopts them in service to his own Hindu nationalist biases. Are biased historical theories wrong in the service of nationalism or not?
@DEVVRAT MISHRA Ehm? We have a two hour rebuttal point by point in these videos.
Frawley is a charlatan, just like Hancook. In it to sell books, ie make money.
@DEVVRAT MISHRA Ah, we should just forget about the hundreds of times Frawley was clearly wrong, and focus on some other small point?
Can't you see how brainwashed that makes you look?
Stop grasping at straws. Try to be objective.
@@benghazi4216 Greeks that you label as white Race literally had Brown skin tone
That means brown race invaded Greek.
Oh what ?
You are saying that you can have brown skin tone even if you don't have brown race ancestory or even if you have white race ancestory
By that logic,
Indians have white skin tone with brown race ancestory/ without white race ancestory as well
And that bunks the whole aryan Theory
Greeks that you label as white Race literally had Brown skin tone
That means brown race invaded Greek.
Oh what ?
You are saying that you can have brown skin tone even if you don't have brown race ancestory or even if you have white race ancestory
By that logic,
Indians have white skin tone with brown race ancestory/ without white race ancestory as well
And that bunks the whole aryan Theory
@@SILENCEINTHESOULS Do you really think "white people" means the color white? Really?
By your logic the Inuits would be "white people". A statement they would clearly object to. Ever heard of Caucasians?
And what the f*ck is "brown race ancestry"?
Anything that isn't "white" in your mind?
Please stop thinking in actual colors and making up terms that no one uses.
It's just ridiculous.
Your academic rigor, good faith engagement, and quality content is genuinely a breath of fresh air and I appreciate your channel a lot.
Any academic rigor must also address the VAST WEALTH OF EVIDENCE & INFORMATION for the Out Of India Theory, that exists in Europe, pre- Christianity - The video fails to do this.
If you are going to try to debunk an entire theory, then surely address all the COMPELLING evidence that supports that theory - else all you are trying to do is, dismantle Frawley, As stated, Fawley himself does not discuss the vast evidence of the Out Of India theory, which exists IN EUROPE, PRE-CHRISTIANITY, within CELTIC & DRUID societies
@@sanjayshah4372 What compelling evidence exists in your understanding of the status of the field?
'Academic rigour'? The guy does not even know his geography. Indus Valley is in Pakistan. The use of 'India' here as disegenous as saying 'did civilization begin in Africa' by characterising Egypt as African. Memo. Mehr Garh, Indus River, Harappa are in Pakistan.
But to his 2nd argument he denied to have 150 kings as it looks abnormal data to him while India have 565 kingdoms and kings at the time of independence in 1947 itself. So if India can have 565 kings in modern time then why having 150 kings in Vedic time seems unrealistic to him
It's funny how Frawley is so obsessed with countering imperialism but also supports imperialism and opposes forms of globalist socialism. It's a sign of dishonesty.
I'd also like to point out that historical text was neglected in India in preference to religious: the Sumerians have a smaller religious library, but also recorded their kings more. It's simply possible that the Brahmins had more political power than their Sumerian equivalents. You can make the same comparison of Israel vs China: while the former contains history it's in a religious context, and while the latter has religious texts there's a stronger emphasis on recording political and economic phenomena
Geography vs literacy? Look up the Achemenid Empire. And then you look up the Athenian. Bit of a geographical difference. And yes, a lot of it is luck since Persian text was destroyed in civil wars and the Greek invasion, but it's significant we know a lot more of the Persians from their enemies than from their own text.
He talks about the size of armies: he should look at the Bible or the Greek accounts. They ALSO make superlative claims about numbers. And sure, the Greeks recorded absolutely massive numbers for the Indian army of the Nanda dynasty, but that was centuries later under a dominant hegemony and the same accounts claimed similar numbers for the Persians. I'm less skeptical of these numbers than those in older literature. What armies need is infrastructure: army size is based on the population size and on the political power of the people raising that army. People are still debating the numbers of the Persian army of Xerxes that destroyed Athens: it could have been as "low" as 70,000 And keep in mind, this is a king of Kings ruling over an area that dwarfed the Indus region and contained multiple civilizations.
Megathenes also said that the Greek god Dionysus had conquered part of India in ancient times, and that Heracles was born in the Punjab, and that tigers twice the size of lions lived in India, and winged scorpions, winged serpents, and mentions all sorts of fictional people living in India, and snakes that eat bulls whole, and Kartazon which are extremely distorted rhinos. He probably got a lot right, but a lot he had to rely on secondhand sources, or rumors or third or fourthhand sources, like a courtier who knew a cousin who knew a farmer who thought he saw someone with ears that were so big to be used as sleeping bags.
That king list might have been exagerrated by either Megasthenes or the brahmins he spoke to or simply misunderstood.
If he puts so much faith in oral tradition, wait until he gets a lot of Irish epics.
One of the strangest moments in this video is when Frawley says something along the lines of, “The Germans…want to be the true Aryans.” In this one line he seems to be saying that 1. Germans in general still adhere to the core pseudohistorical claims of Nazism, ie Germans or hunk of themselves as the true aryans (an absurd claim, thank god), AND 2. that what is wrong about this is not the fascist nation-myth part, but that they are incorrect because Indians are the Aryans (in precisely the ahistorical sense that Nazis constructed them for their German National myth making). Combine that kind of thinking with explicit claims by Frawley that India is the “strongest” and oldest culture, and his paranoid distrust of academics in general and Marxists in particular, and you have a man who is not helping India’s growing fascism problem, to put things mildly.
Your first point sort of reminds me of Russian nationalists calling anyone west of them and opposed to them "anglo-saxons". What about the celts? The gauls? The frisians? The romans? The descendants of which all colonised america. What do they mean? Makes me wonder what they're taught in history class.
So true.
Pseudo science appears to be more popular on the internet then ever before (uncharted x, bright insight, Brien Forester, viper tv, ddtt wathever) and there are way to few people debunking them. Keep up the good work!
I love it when I find something I'm looking for but it's paywalled. Can't get enough.
@@twonumber22 university libraries are often open and have full access to much of what you would have to pay to access. Take a jump drive or three when you do go, so you can copy the PDFs and read at your leisure.
Pseudo science is my fun access path to REAL science though.
@@twonumber22 There are plenty of ways to get what u want for free. You're just complaining because there are exceptions to the rule.
You can't digest the truth that India was great. India was also known as Vedabhoomi ( Land of knowledge). Chinese traveller Hiuen Tsang called India as In-Tu means moon. Leonard Bloomfield regarded Sanskrit as the Linguistic achievement of Indians. These westerners distorted our history and brainwashed our people. They not only looted wealth but looted our knowledge also. That's why I hate westerners.
World is one and people have always migrated and demography has always kept on changing
There have been waves of migration and settlement in Indian Subcontinent:-
1. Australoid/Veddoid tribals now found as tribals in Central and Southern India and as negritos in Andaman and Nicobar islands.
2. Mesolithic farmers that formed Indus Valley civilization.
3. Vedic tribes (so called aryan tribes) they pushed the mesolithic farmers to South. Racial mixing of mesolithic farmers and australoid tribals gave rise to Dravidian population.
Racial Mixing of Vedic tribes and mesolithic farmers gave rise to Ancestral North Indian population.
4 . Tribes from east Iran like parsu, Kamboj, Druhyu.
5 Indo Greeks kingdoms in Today's Afghanistan, Pakistan and punjab region.
6. Scythian tribes : - They ended Greek kingdoms and conquered western and Northern India. Defeated Native kings and established western kshtrap and Northern kshtrap.
Introduced the Indian calender "Saka samvat".
5 Yuezi tribes from east Mongolia established kushan empire which extended from central Asia upto Ganga Valley.
6. Hun tribes : kidraite and hepthalite huns.
They all became Hindus and various castes, Brahmans placed rich as kshtriyas and when they lost power these foreign invaders became farmers.
Then islamic tribes settles
7. TURKS
8. Pashtuns
9. Mughals
They all become part of India.
Then came Britishers but they never settled and in huge Indian population their Genetic imprint is negligible.
These might be my favorite videos you’ve done. I crossed paths with some top Frawley disciples on social media and the conversation was quickly shut down once they saw I was bringing up some of the contrary evidence you’ve mentioned here. I hadn’t heard of Frawley but it smelled like nationalism right away, and a cursory search online and a scan through his claims confirmed that. Really appreciate this thorough debunking. It’s really sad to see anyone, especially Indians. come away with the impression that cultural migration and intermingling somehow robs a place of its culture. Comparative mythology actually testifies to this - yea, many things in the Vedas are similar to other PUE cultures, but it’s also wonderfully unique, and a testament to the unique culture that arose from the mixing of Andronovo horse peoples and native Indians / Harappans. It’s all quite lovely but Frawley and his ilk want to paint everyone who isn’t an Indian nationalist as a Nazi or Marxist. Thanks again
Indian nationalists are bigger group of Hindu nationalists of which Frawley is part of.
i agree the mixing of cowboys and indians was the best thing to happen to north america - even now north England has towns 100% diverse, its a lovely mix of 100% Indians and Pakistani's it is a testament to the unique but now lost culture of the english, that let them cum in the 1960s
After seeing part one you've sent me down the linguistic rabbit hole! - Since then I've started to try and trace and follow historical paths of my native lounge (Manx)... My goodness, It's so very fascinating and something I will persue 100%, Great series, Cheers!
Watch out, ethnic nationalism can also be a problem in... well, probably most languages, but it seems more than usually pervasive in subjects related to the history of Celtic people and languages because, as with Hindu nationalists and "Out of India", it touches on a particularly sensitive political nerve.
The words dhana, dhaana, dhanya found in verses such as IV.24.7, I.16.2 & V.53.13 mean either rice or cereals in general. According to the ancient surgeon Sushruta, only rice is dhanya, the others are kudhanya.
According to Sayana, tandula in 1.16.2 refers to rice porridge.
Another great video! Going through your back catalogue finally
Thank you also for pointing out the argument fallacies like poising the well. I think recognizing those are more beneficial to combating pseudo history than actually correcting the information.
Greeks that you label as white Race literally had Brown skin tone
That means brown race invaded Greek.
Oh what ?
You are saying that you can have brown skin tone even if you don't have brown race ancestory or even if you have white race ancestory
By that logic,
Indians have white skin tone with brown race ancestory/ without white race ancestory as well
And that bunks the whole aryan Theory
@@SILENCEINTHESOULS what? Are you ok?
@@kckc4955 Do you believe in Aryan invasion?
@@SILENCEINTHESOULS That's a lot of nonsense. Just for starters, no serious scientists talks about race any more, they haven't for probably 60 years. And pretty much everyone south of Austria has some brown in their skin tone, what is that supposed to signify? Also, yes, the Greeks migrated into Greece, even Homer knew that. And yes, most of the ancestors of today's Indians were there before the Vedic period - again, no one today speaks of a total population replacement. You're talking about badly outdated ideas.
I'm not sure what you're claiming "bunks the whole aryan Theory", or even what you're talking about when you say the aryan Theory. Literally no one today thinks that has anything to do with race - mostly because, again, literally no one in the scientific community today thinks that race is a thing.
I would very much appreciate the compilation of the two parts into a larger updated video as you did with the Egyptian series. However, I would also recommend much more detail on the consensus theories with respect to the Hirrapan culture, the development of the Vedas, as well as the Aryan migration. Thatis, providing the rebuttals to Fraudley, but with more detail on consensus interpretations. Yes, naming wordplay intended and many thanks for the work on both videos.
I love how a lot of people like this seem to blame the same groups of people such as "Marxists" or "leftists"
Because they don't understand the views of the "left," and don't bother to learn them, so they just choose to think "our side right, their side wrong - not just wrong, but evil, too!"
@@MaryAnnNytowl In this case, I suspect it's because he sees academic resistance against his beliefs as existing on the same spectrum as the anti-religious attitudes and actions of 20th century communism. I've seen the same thought process in others.
Yeah, it makes me tick when they blame my political views for suppressing culture when all I want is freedom to have culture. The complete opposite.
How about when prominent figures of cultural movements admit they’re Marxist, but then bleach that detail from their websites, and then disappear to mostly-white gated communities?
Looking at you blm
in this case, yourent aware of the situation in India. we arent talking about europeans here. We are talking about indian leftist and marxists. who indeed are the reason for many controversies in the past after the british left.
I really enjoyed your even handed treatment of this spicy topic. Keep up the good Work.
Hindus extremist in india are currently appealing to some guy called P.N. Oak. they say things like P.N. Oak said Christianity came from the word Krishna; Abraham was an aberration for Brahma; Vatican was originally a Sanskrit word and etc. Hindus in india are taking this guy seriously. Could you make a video on P.N. Oak and his false claims.
Frawley really reminds of Graham Hancock, leaping from thin or no evidence to wild conclusions.
@@pranavtendolkar8578 nah, it still is a collection of biases, thinly veiled attempts at poisoning the well, building strawman arguments, and making illogical jumps from one weak point to the next, even weaker point. That is all Frawley does.
@@pranavtendolkar8578 The video was awful.
As a South Asian “Hindu” I have to really praise this channel in debunking stupidity. The narrative of attempting to link a great tradition to an older tradition to territory is due to the insecurity of a limited subset of the traditional ruling classes. The rest of us are no less proud of our beliefs, its influencers, its inspiration and its continual development. Like all zealots from the world over, this small subset strive to pin their belief to a divine created truth, quite literally to give it a universal undeniable aura. Its very authoritarian and over time leads to decline in an educated people. However as a spiritual country of the truth was embraced it will only prolong the belief system in existence today.
Wow, you're certainly a zealot
I stopped reading as soon as I saw South Asian cringe. Red flag
The VAST WEALTH OF EVIDENCE & INFORMATION for the Out Of India Theory that exists in Europe, pre- Christianity , has been ignored or not addressed
@@sanjayshah4372 and as a deliberate strategy
Interesting perspective. I am from Sindh Pakistan originally and we were taught about Moen-jo-Daro and Harappa with a lot of pride as advanced civilizations from 5000+ years ago that were indigenous to Indus Valley. Unfortunately back in early 80's they were still teaching about now debunked Aryan Invasion Theory as opposed to Aryan Migration. There was no evidence found of large armies or even city walls for protection in these ancient cities so it was assumed that these Aryans had an easy time of coming in and fighting with locals who although advanced were not war like and these Aryans had brought in Vedic culture and Caste system which was not in use before they arrived. Obviously we know now that there was very little if any fighting. The Aryans just settled and mixed with the locals and cities like Moen-jo-Daro and Harappa were left voluntarily simply likely due to environmental and climate factors.
Your videos on Atlantis must have been some of your first work, because these two videos knocked it out the park. Excellent work here.
I like how you show how his theories don't hold up by explaining what evidence is needed for the theory to work.
From my perspective, you seem to make a hypothetical argument for his case and work your way through it to show how it doesn't hold water.
Again, excellent work here, and I hope you continue to put out more content.
I forgot muy popcorn! Well, on a serious level I really admire your disposition to discuss so many things. Excelent work!
Thank you kindly!
Thanks for a very interesting and informative analysis of the Indo-European controversy, such as it is. Frawley doesn't prove the old saying that converts are more fanatical than original believers, but he does give some evidence for it.
I don't think Frawley believes what he is saying. I think he hopes to get into a powerful position within the Indian nationalist movement. It is all for his personal advancement.
@@tomjackson4374 🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@tomjackson4374 I think he believes in it. He said something along the lines of “Every great civilisation needs a state to fund it” not exactly those words. But I think he believes this, and thus is spreading it. Like a political religious belief which fuels his pseudoacademic output. I would consider his texts to be more like religious texts though.
@@MrMikkyn his text are arent relegious text
In that sense almost all Abrahmic religion people are converts from pagans !
This is a sensitive topic for many Indians since they have their identity attached to greatness of noble Vedic culture and Aryan ancestry.
A few questions that pop in mind:
* If India's political boundary today also included all the ancient Vedic cultures (Europe, Iran etc) and was called "Bharata", would one still be trying to prove "Out of India" theory?
* Why not have a "Out of Kishkinda" theory where forest dwellers of Kishikinda jungles moved northward and mixed with Indians living in the gangetic plain (sure they do have some common genes)? or an "Out of Mexico or Brazil" theory where European migration into Americas never happened but it was the reverse?
* How does one account for the fact that Europeans and most other Indo-European speakers in West Asia DO NOT HAVE any (that is, zero or virtually zero) South Asian IVC-related admixture in their DNA? (IVC = Indus Valley)? Does it not clearly show the direction of migration?
I think an Aryan "Migration" happened and not invasion - IVC was already on a decline when Aryans came to India. Sure there were some initial violent interactions between Aryans and early settlers people in IVC, but that was a norm between different tribes/races around the world at that time and shouldn't be judged by today's moral standards (Classic books such as Sapiens or Third Chimpanzee is a great read in this area). My admiration for "Maryada purushottam" Lord Rama or Vedas still stands tall despite Aryan migration.
An example of invasion is what Putin is doing in Ukraine today which is totally immoral.
I do understand there could be a political ramification of this where a certain section calls "descendants of these Aryan settlers" (read "upper castes") as "foreigners". Many fear this has the potential to divide India and I acknowledge that sentiment, however in today's connected globalized multicultural world, people of all cultures/castes/races are "melting", does it matter anymore?
If one reads books such as Sapiens and The Third Chimpanzee, we would understand how homo sapiens around the world are all connected, and have continuously migrated & come together to bring about big changes in how we live since we were hunter gatherers. No ethnic group around the world can claim an “original” homeland anymore, including the aborigines in Andaman or in Papua New Guinea. People need to be educated about this and the one-ness of entire humanity and not fall into trap of "one group is more exclusive/superior than other". Ironically, isn't this what "Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam" is about which we Indians are so familiar with?
We shouldn't judge history by today's moral standards. History should be accepted as it is without any shame - be it good or bad. Glory of our ancient past doesn't become any less, and I am still proud of our Aryan forefathers.
In conclusion, I would like to say that choice of words do matter as it has the power to send subconscious messages when we hear them. The words "invasion / raiders / annihilators / barbarians" isn't the right one to use for reasons mentioned above - context and history should be taken into account as well. Historians have a moral responsibility to be sensitive to perceptions created by the words they use.
Why don't you start studying budhist history which was destroyed ,buried by Brahminisn ,
The zero ,and all other fantastic claims they make is infact spired from many budhist universities like texila ,Nalanda where thousand of student used to study ,Korean ,Japanese ,Chinese ,Iranian used to visit and study .
Remember budhism in early stage did not taught religion ,God he was a rationalist....all the budhist caves statues and painting were jatikas tales ( fables created to make student ,citizen understand about good and bad. )
@@syedqamaranwar14 because Pakistan is a bhikari country
@@syedqamaranwar14 those ancient universities were destroyed by the abrahamic conquerors, who came to India to spread islam, Takshasila university was founded by king bharata , and chanakya was one of its professors. Takshasila was destroyed by white huns and nalanda was destroyed by khilji
@@syedqamaranwar14which Korean,Japanese and Iranian studied at taxila or Nalanda in antiquity?
@@HappyBoardGames-ki4pt
Why don't you check it yourself ...only one name I am giving fa'hien
Im in love, man. First these videos, on a topic i have NEVER had adequately explained, and you also have a video on Hermeticism??? you are a real hero for providing this knowledge for free
Glad you like them!
@@WorldofAntiquity Mittani had Indra, Varuna God's. Which are still part of Hindu demi-god. But you totally ignored that.
I just noticed that the US is biger then the UK, so it must be older. I never noticed how eroneus my views on the war of independence have been.😂
Idiot, people still felt aww to see the Khmer temple --not only because of its uniqueness but also it was a very vast city with a big temple of Vishnu in it. Don't combine past and present!
It was rather nice of us to let Britons become independent after American migration there gave them American culture.
@@brucetucker4847 very generous in deed
Waterfields are rice fields or marsh depending on the location of and/ or the storyline as I recall. 50 years ago, I studied the Mahabharata and Ramayan with an Indian professor on sabbatical in the States.
15:41: "The Vedas are by far the largest ancient literature we have from the ancient world. . . . What you have in the Mesopotamian culture, what they found, is only a few isolated texts."
My head is exploding. Maybe his identification of a "few isolated texts" hinges on his definition of "literature," and he's excluding virtually all Mesopotamian documents on the basis of his classification of those texts as nonliterary. (The vast majority of them are indeed "nonliterary," by anyone's definition.) But he uses the word "texts," so it sounds like he's simply uneducated about the fact that it's estimated that hundreds of thousands of documents survive from Mesopotamia. I know this is a throwaway line in his arguments, but he comes across as seriously uninformed.
Don't underestimate intentional misinformation as someone being uninformed.
He also accepts as gospel (pun intended) the absurd claims for the date of composition of the Vedas being the late 4th millennium BCE. Sure, if you compare that date to any other civilization it is an infinitely greater body of literature, because the body of written literature for the entire planet as of 3,100 BCE is precisely zero. But every serious academic who is not mired in Hindu nationalist chauvinism puts the date of composition of the Vedas a good 2,000 years later than that, and the date of their being written down another thousand years or more after that. It's pretty easy to show that your civilization is bigger, better, and earlier than anyone else's if you just outright lie about the date it achieved various things.
These hindutva trolls are trying to make mythology into history
Aryan invasion theory already debunked ♥️🕉
@@muziekhiphop3648 yes by modi only i think 😂
@@muziekhiphop3648 Yes, decades ago by mainstream scientists. Aryan _migration_ theory is a completely different matter, but Hindu nationalists just love whacking away at that same old straw man.
It's a lot like creationists attacking Darwin for things mainstream science has understood he got wrong for a good century.
@World of Antiquity
Could you please present your thoughts on the "Terracotta figurines of Yoga" found in Harappan sites and the "Shivalinga" in Kalibangan sites. Don't they provide some sort of proof supporting the continuity of cultural aspects from the time of Indus Valley civilization even if there was a migration inward or outward?
Maybe, but cultural continuity exists almost everywhere. Nothing unusual about that.
@@WorldofAntiquity Yes, but I was hoping you could throw some more light on it in your own way sometime. It’s not a trivial matter. When kids of my age were growing up in India the history taught has been mostly debunked including the AIT theory. We would like to know what is the age of Yoga for example.
THIS VIDEO IS NOW OUTDATED: DNA samples collected from two human skeletons unearthed at a necropolis of a Harappan-era city site in Haryana were sent for scientific examination and confirm they found no traces of R1a1!
Shiva is not a hindu God
@@WorldofAntiquityi have talk and listened many just like you they sound same and their work just copy past 😅😅
I've seen this guy before; depressing how he's only one of many around the world simply re working old biased and bigoted agenda based nonsense, thanks for this scholarly de bunking Dr Miano,
David Frawley could've just been satisfied with saying that the most popular steel exported around the world was wootz steel (urukkul) from South India. But then of course he would've brought politics into it as he would've remembered that the British forcefully shut down wootz steel making which forced these people to move into farming to survive (they did this to various people doing various jobs) and how the technology of how to make the steel has been lost thx to it and we still can't figure out how to make it. It was a quite unique type of steel. I hope some research goes into it. It's also interesting how the earliest iron artefacts found in India were found in Hyderabad (in South India) in 2015 which date back to 2400 to 1800 BCE
indians should do this research, and urgently and intensively. but it wont happen as long as the cowbeltindians dominate the southindians.
Wootz is crucible steel. It was super advanced for its time but by the time the British got to India it was old tech even within India.
They also stopped indigenous iron/ steel production in West Africa.
@@beanabong2896 Indigenous iron production was fatally undercut by easy access to scrap iron, which can be heated and repurposed by a blacksmith.
This is such a great video! Totally loved it! Rationality will always triumph.
This was great! Very interesting and very thorough. I really appreciate the level of detail!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Just got around to watching these videos, and like every other “Myths of Ancient History”, they are simply fantastic. You and other youtubers make me want to study prehistory and archeology!
Wow, thank you!
@@WorldofAntiquity hey do you think the dasa aren’t the dark skinned people but the dahae under the andronovo culture? Some of connected the snake headed foreigner king whom conquered the Persians in Zoroastrian lore, Azi DAHAka (note Avestan language changed the s sound to h sound) to the dahae (a term given to the Romans by the Persians). These dasa seem to have forts and attack the Aryans which doesn’t seem like the meluhhans at all. What do you think?
@@saratmodugu2721 Interesting idea. I am not sure if Dasa and Dahae are cognate. I would have to look into it more.
@@WorldofAntiquity you also said something interesting about the noses being flat, perhaps an asiatic admixture? Also does the theory that the Aryans/andronovo were foederati of the meluhhans and after the fall of their civilization, sort of took over like the Germanic lords over former Roman territory? Hence explaining the genetics, lack of dead bodies, and cultural assimilation?
@@saratmodugu2721 We have no archaeological evidence of a mass invasion of Indo-Aryan people. More likely they slowly filtered into north India over a few centuries.
I think Dr. Frawley was hoping that no one with your depth of knowledge would hear his talk.
Unfortunately, I don't think it matters much to Frawley for a few reason... The first basic reason is his video has half a million views, meaning he's still likely succeeded in misleading far more people than Professor Miano is educating here.
But, I think more importantly, Frawley is a radical rightwinger. The foundation of his worldview (& his content) is reactionary politics from an Indian nationalist perspective. And, just like reactionary movements all over the world, the BJP & related groups in India have a powerful echo chamber. It's not just Hindu supremacy, anti-socialism, & violent xenophobia that holds their movement together -- it's also myths like these... It's not unlike the Trump movement wherein re-writing the US's past is equally important.
My guess is Frawley has a large audience for as long as he wants it -- regardless of any facts that might get in the way.
@@dr.zoidberg8666 Ok, that was the missing piece of the puzzle. Frawley probably hopes to latch on to the Indian nationalist movement for his own personal advancement but what is important for us is he doesn't believe the pseudo-history he is peddling any more than we do.
I can't understand what we want to prove. The Vedas are said to be written in India both in AIT and OIT. But the only dispute is the date. So the debate should be on dates.
No !
When historians start blaming opposing views on "Leftist Marxists" I tune out.
You call him a historian? I sure wouldn't.
We have an “Adhika masa” every two years once were an additional month of 30 days is added to counter the 360 days of lunar year problem... The lunar calendar is still used today
Could you please make a video exclusively on early Hinduism in Indian subcontinent? How amalgamation of different pre-aryan dravid and autochthonous traditions gave way to Hinduism? How caste system evolved and how its root is in Europe(if there's)? Whether pre-aryan india had caste system or not.
Whew. That's a big topic. But if you can narrow it down a bit, leave it as a question on my voicemail: speakpipe.com/DavidMiano
There's a dravidian dna in Ukrainians
But slavic r1a still most dominant
But it would be fascinating to find out something pre Aryan....
There are judgements passed in this question about "aryan", " dravidian" case. There was a fanatic named Hitler with a hooked cross and adopted aryan term, because he had inferiority complex with ancient vedic culture from Bharat.
@@WorldofAntiquity I hope you are aware that the word Aryan is a Sanskrit word and has NOTHING to do with RACE , but simply implies nobility.
Buddha or Lord Krishna are considered Aryans.
It simply connotes character and not Race.
@@razraza3183 Yes, I am aware where the word comes from. I also know it is used today as a shortened form of Indo-Aryan, which is a language family.
Great video once again! Thank you sir.
Wow that was some big topics covered. You have amazing knowledge. Have you done or would you consider doing a video on Jesus in India? The idea that Jesus survived or avoided crucifixion and travelled to India and died an old age in Kashmir. It would be interesting to hear your deconstruction.
I understand why he feels this way, but that's the problem. He "feels" this way. He either not being rational or he's being intellectually dishonest. He really likes to stroke the hard on he has for India doesn't he? Can you give yourself your own official paradox?
I would really like to get a set of those drums you have. I would like to play them on my front porch when my neighbors play their music too loud. 😜 Great video
This video is largely a great refutation, but there were a few iffy bits when it came to Rigveda quotes in the Argument #4 section. First off, let me note that the term "low-nosed" used by Frawley is itself a highly dubious translation; the term used in Sanskrit is "anasa," which can (and has historically) been parsed as "a-(without) -nasa (nose)" - some scholars have interpreted this as referring to flat noses, but translating it as "low-nosed" makes that interpretation seem more definitive than it is. Additionally, the word can be parsed differently as "an-(without) -asa (voice)," in which case it may have been a symbolic reference to foreign language (if I recall correctly the symbolic description of foreigners as lacking speech also appears elsewhere in Vedic texts, though in different words). So, Frawley's presentation of this description is both dubious and incomplete.
Right before that though, there's also some questionable presentation of quotes on Dr. Miano's part displayed at around 34:41. Dr. Miano suggests that these quotes specifically refer to the skin color of the Dasas, but this isn't actually explicit in any of the full passages; a subject is not specified in any of these cases, and different interpretations have been presented. In the first quote, it has been proposed that the implicit subject is a specific opponent of Indra, Krishna (not to be confused with the more famous Krishna from the Mahabharata), whose name means "dark complexioned," from RV 8.96.13-17. Now, this Krishna may have simply been a "Dasa" man, in which case his skin may be representative of the Dasas in general, but he has also been interpreted as an Asura (a sort of demonic entity), in which case the dark skin may indeed be intended as a mythical feature akin to fangs and extra limbs or faces. Alternatively he could have been dark-skinned by Dasa standards as well as Aryan ones, similarly to how the more famous Krishna was given that name (again, meaning "dark-complexioned") within his own Vedic society. This is of course only of significance if we take the passage as referencing Indra's battle with Krishna, which it may not; but the significant thing is that with no specified subject, we cannot take it as a given that the passage refers to the Dasa as a population. Similarly in the other two cases, the "black skin" could refer to the Dasa as a people, to demonic entities, or in a symbolic sense as Dr. Miano mentions (in the sense that the same word could refer to multiple kinds of coatings such as the crust of the Earth or the rind of a fruit, making it possible that the usage of the term refers to some kind of metaphorical coating of evil, akin to how a phrase like "a dark air" might be used to describe a sense of evil in English); it simply isn't clear-cut that "the color of the skin of the Dasas is specifically referred to here" as Dr. Miano suggests, and I don't think it's reasonable to appeal to the audience's intuitive interpretation of these quotes, especially given that priming.
That's very fair, I agree.
Great video as always, but I have to comment as a Norwegian here: fjords are found mainly in Norway, Chile, New Zealand, Canada, Greenland, and the US state of Alaska.
I'm betting that with all but the first of those the indigenous inhabitants did not use anything related to the word "fjord" to refer to them until Europeans showed up.
Thanks for all your content Antiquity Dude, but especially these two.
THIS VIDEO IS NOW OUTDATED: DNA samples collected from two human skeletons unearthed at a necropolis of a Harappan-era city site in Haryana were sent for scientific examination and confirm they found no traces of R1a1!
The Rig Veda Mandala 7 Hymn 89 you referred to in the video actually translates to a cognitive sense that any system of, say ideology, deduction or engineering (or any established system for that matter actually), should actually consider adaptability or flexibility in its design in the event of any deviations made by mere physical imperfections.
Varuna being the deity of planning and system design in the Vedas is considered in the Rig Veda as upholding the system of divine law by which a culture can operate, but in a general sense can apply to any system for that matter as by the law of divinity (this is as by the Vedic ideology that divinity lies in everything). To think of it in the sense of a software system, as an example, if say a user of the software by any chance mishandles it by mere human error, the software should not completely crash, and that there should be exception handlers put in place to accommodate all that. The same may follow for any mechanical device (or home appliance) or even a constitutional law.
So the hymn does not actually refer to an ocean being present in a geographical vicinity.
The above interpretation I have made for you has come purely from years personal studies of the Vedas and its contents and is not document yet anywhere. So I'm not holding you up against it, but just sharing with you some of it so that you may consider it. From my personal studies, I discovered that the Rig Veda actually holds the basics of cognitive development. The Vedas actually were used as educational material for students back then during the Vedic times. Something which the historians have and had blatantly disregarded in their archeological discoveries till now.
Thank you for sharing. The reason why such interpretations might not have gotten attention from archaeologists or historians are probably because of the principles I discuss in this short video: czcams.com/users/shortsY93x6wO-Eaw?feature=share
This is all very interesting. How does one contact you? Also what about Indian genes moving out of India to the east and into the Pacific? I'm very interested in these topics....I took a class with Prof Dales at UC Berkeley who declared there was no Aryan invasion in Harappa.
"no Aryan invasion in Harappa" is correct. No one has been claiming that there was invasion for decades now.
26:50 the "soma" thing you were explaining, I just got an idea beans how all these languages somehow over time seems similar and most likely there is a interaction involved with other civilizations over long spans of time, I just got an idea. Possibly using the DNA mapping and went time frames when these languages merge there might be some kind of correlation to at least mapping the time frames if you know the time frames when the languages spelling diverge. If you understand why I'm getting to that is.
DNA won't reveal anything because intermigration and business were present much before
@@mattroules6691 in part one he explained different regions or culture's having same DNA as if intermingling between cultures, but to find the timeline to when they intermingled, as in determining when they intermingled would possibly be if you know when some of the languages got mixed into the culture, is what I was going on.
@@arranwalker2647 it's not possible to find the exact time and linguist can be found only in the earliest book
@@mattroules6691 I'm sure they can derive an estimate, not looking for exact.
@@mattroules6691 the best guess will satisfy.
Thank you for the video!
Want to add for the ending of Argument #1: And various sources stated that Greece was invaded by 4.2 billion Persian army and that Alexander fights armies hundreds of thousands strong. This was not only because they want to enlarge the achievements, but also Persian empire was large and so, to the logic of chronists, mast have armis of that size. This is, in my oppinion, good example why you do not want to do any assumptions based on the size of the country or real or civilization or culture.
4.2 billion?
@@Persian-Immortal My bad. Typo. It is "million".
I studied music in collage and I remember having a percussion teacher that was a zealous defender of Indian exceptionalism and was quite resentful of his european ancestry. This man reminds me of him.
The stars have everything to do with our calendar but you are right about the stars could have been observed from anywhere
Hi David! Excellent video. @7:52 "Frawley's paradox, as he calls it" too smooth.. haha
Frawley's reactionary arguments tend to anticipate fatal objections to his fantasy world. Linguistics, genetics, internal Vedic evidence and even the caste system all point to a pretty consistent narrative. He is clearly one of those cultural hyper-romantics who refuse to come to terms with the obvious. It's sad that the very literature and culture he claims to revere is warped to fit an obviously false narrative.
Yeah that is what sucks about it. These hyper-nationalistic reframings of history strip so much out of the very culture they worship. Real history is so much more rich, complex and interesting than the sanitized and pruned version they use to support their modern ideology.
I am much more interested in the real people who did real things. It feels sad to ignore our real ancestors and their accomplishments in favor of our fictionalized versions. It feels disrespectful in an ironic way.
There was no such thing as caste system in vedas, u r misinformed
@@Vikk009 My comment never said there was a caste system in the Vedas. You have trouble with reading comprehension!
@@Zebred2001 the caste system is we know it developed so long after the period in question that I think it's not very useful in understanding the origins of the Vedic language and culture. It _may_ contain elements that have come down from that era but it's difficult if not impossible to understand their original context.
43:12 Frawley has seemed to indicate that he believes all the Indo-European languages descended from Sanskrit, and Hittite *was* an Indo-European language, so that's likely all he cared to know.
@@pranavtendolkar8578 Umm... That's not how proto languages work. Proto languages are reconstructions, comparing related languages and using the knowledge we have of how languages are likely to change to reverse the process and figure out what their common ancestor was like, and no linguist on earth thinks the reconstructions are perfect or anything more than a reconstruction. Proto-Indo-European didn't exist, the Indo-Europeans however, certainly did. We don't know exactly who they were, they left no records, only adopting writing in the course of their migration/conquests, but we know they existed, and we know where they came from.
@@Great_Olaf5 we know they existed, but there is no proof for them conquering India or any land actually. No archaeological proof or anything. You can't just come up with an imaginary "proto Indo-European language" and say they spoke this.
@@atacama1000 Which is why people point to a mass migration.
@@404Dannyboy i think immigration is a continuous process , and there is a mass migration from central Asia not from Europe or something 😂.
@@mr.curious6872 Depends on which period you are taking about. All of our evidence seems to point to a people around Ukraine and western Russia migrating into Iran and central Asia, parts of China, and westwards into Europe. Then the Iranian Aryan culture and people who were the results of that migration migrated into India bringing along Sanskrit or forming while in India as a branch of the greater Indo European family group.
Also, yes, migration is often a long and continuous process.
Great job of providing both sides of evidence
Sir what books should I read to know more about ancient India?
You can start with Upinder Singh's History of Ancient and Early Medieval India.
@@WorldofAntiquity Thank you.
Excellent! Not all roads lead to Rome! Great research, well presented and a Himalayan effort.
Glad you liked it!
Are you indian?
@@WorldofAntiquity Saraswati river ? dried up 6000 ago , mention in rig Veda
@@The-ud8zd Old news. It's been covered at length.
Veda mentioned a river name Saraswati which is mentioned as greatest of all the river, but had dried some 3500 hundreds year ago. Earlier it was supposed to me mythological river but a evidence of a huge river with width of 8 to 13 kms is found in the desert of Thar. And Indus valley civilization which was supposed to flourish near river Indus, is now supposed to flourish in the bank of river saraswati.
So people try to correlate the fact when some of the earlier text of Vedas were written, it was within the domain of the Harappan civilization.
Well, a fjord is a bay too narrow to be a bay but too wide to be just an extension of the river that gave rise to it, and not anywhere near long enough to be a gulf. As such it would actually be mostly fresh water. So your interpretation of the line seems to be right.
I have a simple question. If vedas are associated with IVC, why don't we find any inscription of vedas in IVC?
Not supporting Frawley's nonsense, but the answer to that is quite clear: because the Vedas were only transmitted orally until well into the classical era. The IVC did not have any _written_ body of literature, although we're not entirely sure what they used language for since not a word of their writing has been translated with any certainty. Maybe someday we'll find something like the Rosetta Stone written in both Akkadian cuneiform and the IVC script, but I don't think it's likely because we've never found anything remotely that lengthy in the IVC script despite finding thousands of items bearing the script.
Rig Veda always says that Soma plant was from outside their territory to the mountain region in and beyond Afghanistan
Not beyond Afghanistan. Beyond Saraswati (Gagar hakkra)
Does it mean that it is not possible to assume that Indra was ab initio a monsoon God? Not necessarily a changed identity after the people changed location
Can you please do a video on the Narmada cranium and how it fits into the human history.
That’s prehistoric. Not my subject area. Interesting though.
@47:10 Nakshatra is not a name for the star, its a 1/27th of identifiable sky denoted by the brightest start. There are 27 nakshatra (sections of sky) each identified with there principle brightest star.
Not in the Rig Veda.
@@WorldofAntiquity Nakshatra means Constellation (or Asterism), Nak- (Nakt) meaning Night which is the root of the word Noct, Nox, Night, etc. and Kshatra/Kshetra meaning Rule/Region, so it means 'region of the night sky' or 'Constellation'
Whether it's Rig Veda or otherwise the meanings of Sanskrit words don't change as the words here are 'made of meaning'
@@topg2820 Word do change meaning over time - in every language - even though the words are 'made of meaning.' Think about it: do "rule/region of the night sky" and "constellation" means the same thing? No, they do not.
@Antares All languages change over time. ALL LANGUAGES. No one can stop it from happening.
@Antares I have never claimed to be a Sanskrit scholar. I am simply teaching people what Sanskrit scholars have said. Go argue with them.
I'm in love with Indian civilization and I'm partial to it, but your analysis is balanced and based on evidence.
The greatness of that civilization doesn't have to be based on the idea that is the earliest civilization and while I admire Frawley knowledge his position are extreme and not substantiated by material facts.
It woukd be balanced if he also made a video about the problems with Aryan migration THEORY. that's balanced
@@s.b626 This is exactly like young earth creationists saying "teach the controversy". There is no controversy once you reject viewpoints that originate with a religious belief and refuse to contemplate anything that might contradict that belief.
I REALLY want to know what a Water-Fijod is... I cant think of any Fjords near India. But I could be wrong. And Googling it takes me to Fjords (Im assuming the Algorithm assumes you mistyped) and thick water... Could it be possible that a Fijod is like their Baths? Like the Great Bath in Mohenjo-Daro? Do we know the name they actually called that? Cause when you started talking about it more, that was the first thing that popped in my mind.
A typo. Probably it should have said "Flood". That was my first reaction too.
We don't know any language used in Mohenjo-Daro, because it cannot be deciphered (yet). In fact the name of the city was not Mohenjo-Daro for the people then because of that same reason. There are up to date too few scribbles to be able to decipher the language sadly. But even if we could, we won't know much due to the lack of written teksts.
@@telebubba5527 I had learned that in college in 2012/13. wasnt sure if there had been an update to that or not.
@@dkakito Sadly there's no "Rosetta Stone". A lot of people are dying to know what those few pieces of tekst are and if there is any relation to other languages.
@@telebubba5527 yeah, the Rosetta stone was kinda a miracle tbh... lol
Sir could you please bring dr. Rajendra prasad singh on your channel to talk about actual ancient indian history.. may be he could give some insight...
I can't recall where, but I remember reading a theory that the original ancient Indian Soma is a now extinct plant (granted they didn't provide much in the way of identifying features of the plant, it was a tentative theory), containing theobromine, which is unusual to my understanding, as most other theories in aware of assume something more like coca or an opiate. Just popped into my head while rewatching this, felt the need to put it out there.
A plant that contained a lot of theobromine? There's cacao, the source of chocolate, which came from the New World. Tea, which has rather less, was brought to India from China by the British.
The tea ceremony remains important in many societies today. It's amusing to imagine ancient priests performing sacred Vedic rites on a fire altar just to make a cup of tea. Did warriors really feel invincible in battle after that?
@@faithlesshound5621 I didn't say it was tea, though I am aware that tea is one of the few plants around that has theobromine. The theory I recall reading was that it was a now extinct plant native to India. Honestly, I think they were mostly trying to come up with an explanation that didn't involve an opiate or a narcotic substance. I think they were trying to push against the idea that plants involved in religious rituals had to have potent mind altering effects, and it was a very tentative theory, it was more of a "Well, it could have been something milder like theobromine rather than an unknown opiate or local cocaine containing plant." than concrete proposal.
One very minor point. At about 42:38 he says the Hittites are indo-EUROPEAN, while at about 43:08 you state that the Hittites didn't speak an indo-ARYAN language, a claim he didn't quite make (at least not there). I think you probably misheard him or he made a reference elsewhere. Otherwise, this was a beautiful takedown.
Ah, yes, well, he suggested the Hittites were descended from the Indo-Aryans. But I take your point.
@@WorldofAntiquity Nowhere he says that
Kindly watch it again
"And if we trace their movement, we see that these people are always moving to the west." So yes, he does.
@@WorldofAntiquity 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
Nowhere he says Hittites were "Indo-Aryan"
Can't you understand?
@@WorldofAntiquity I was not talking about the movement of people
He does says
But I was taking about Indo-Aryan part where you misquoted him and manipulated
Great work, thank you
It would be interestinG to see what you think of Dr. Niraj Rai's videos on youtube.
To argument 1:
L Ron Hubbard may be the single most prolific writer of all time, definitely of the 20th century.
He published over 500,000 pages of literature. Thats 250,000,000 words. plus another 3000 hours of audio lectures.
95% of it is obviously trash, but it kind of puts the idea that producing a lot of literature requires a great civilization to bed, don't you think?
Clearly the oldest and most ancient piece of literature we still have today is One Piece, I mean have you seen the size of it?
David Frailly seems seems had Aryan link . However there should be Hindi version of series for wider debate & to reach majority of Indian population .
The link for the textbook controversy is a dead one. It doesn't even open a page that says the article wasn't found. It just opens a blank page, with nothing at all on it.
That was the only one I clicked, as it was the only one I wanted to read right now, so I've no idea about the other ones. But I thought you would want to know about the troublesome link.
Great video, and great debunking!
I just checked the link, and it still works for me. Maybe something was wonky with your browser.
...Just a note: we don't actually have much evidence regarding the language(s) of the Kassites. Mainstream linguistics marks them as of uncertain classification.
Ah okay. Good to know!
As I understand it all we have is a few dozen words and no grammar, because everything they wrote was in Akkadian or, for religious texts, Sumerian. That's the problem with a lot of ancient languages, people tended to write in a one of a few literary languages.
41:57 It doesn't sound like you know what you're talking about here, even if your statements could be twisted into valid points.
Firstly, the "Mitanni" language is called "Hurrian" and is not Indo-European at all. The hypothesized "Indo-Aryan superstrate" in Mitanni Hurrian is a completely different language, which it is supposed the names of Mitanni kings and gods came from, and which the horse-riding jargon the manual uses are LOANWORDS from. You are correct that Kikkuli's horse-riding manual is not in "almost pure Sanskrit" as he says; neither is it in Hurrian: it's actually in Hittite, because Kikkuli was a man from Mitanni who was hired by the Hittites to teach them the Mitanni knowledge of horse-riding. The book was intended to teach Hittites what was already well-known in Mitanni, so it was written in Hittite.
Perhaps when he says it was written in "almost pure Sanskrit", what he's thinking of is that the language of the Indo-Aryan loanwords in the Hurrian and Hittite texts are from a language which, poorly reconstructed as it is from the few loanwords, which were distorted by being written in an alien script (cuneiform), likely after being borrowed into a language with an alien phonology (Hurrian), can't be much distinguished from Vedic Sanskrit or Proto-Indo-Aryan and thus may well have been closely related enough to both for them all to be mutually intelligiable with each other (noting that the difference between "Vedic Sanskrit" and "Proto-Indo-Aryan" is an artifact of the simplifying "tree model" of language change, and a more realistic model for such short time periods and for dialect continua, incorporating the "wave model" of language change, might make "Proto-Indo-Aryan" a vaguer language (or subgroup of a larger Indo-Iranian or even Indo-European dialect continuum), of which Vedic Sanskrit, proto-Prakits, Mitanni-Aryan, and others might all be called "dialects").
I'm not sure what I said that made you think I didn't know what I was talking about. But thank you for adding more details.
@@WorldofAntiquity I guess it sounded like you were either saying that Hurrian was Indo-European (but not Indo-Aryan), or that the Mitanni Indo-Aryan superstrate language was not Indo-Aryan (but still Indo-European). (I couldn't tell which language you meant by "Mitanni") It also sounded like you were implying (like David Frawley was) that the Kikkuli text was indeed in the Mitanni superstrate language, and just that that language wasn't "pure Sanskrit" or even quite Indo-Aryan. Also, when people talk about "features" of languages, I guess I tend to think of that as more than just proper nouns and technical loanwords. (Maybe there is more. I just read Hurrian might have borrowed pronouns from Indo-Aryan.)
I did notice that, when you said some innovations in Indo-Aryan were not present in the languages he mentions, you were at least ALSO talking about the other Indo-European languages he mentions, such as the Anatolian languages like Hittite and the Iranian languages like Avestan, Persian, and the Scythian languages. Indeed, these and other non-Indo-Aryan IE languages do preserve archaisms reconstructed for PIE which are not present in Indo-Aryan languages, including Vedic Sanskrit, which is the main linguistic problem with the idea that Vedic Sanskrit, specifically, is the ancestor all IE languages. I'm also now starting to realize that you MIGHT actually have been saying that archaisms are found in the Mitanni loanwords which are not present in Sanskrit or the Prakrits. I wasn't aware of that, but that's just means I'm the one who doesn't know what I'm talking about. I'm no expert. On the specific topic of Mitannia Aryan, I basically just know what's on the Wikipedia page and what Jackson Crawford said about it on CZcams.
On a separate note, I hope you know that Hittite IS Indo-European (or Indo-Hittite or Indo-Anatolian, depending on terminology), but (as you later say) not Indo-Aryan. I thought it was weird that you later just expressed confusion at him mentioning Hittites as if they could have come from India, because they're not Indo-Aryan, instead of noting that he's saying all Indo-European languages can be traced back to India. I mentioned this in a different comment, along with a vague questioning of your accepting his premise that the Kassite language was probably Indo-European, although in that case I definitely don't know what I'm talking and it does look like there's at least some evidence to suggest that.
@@Mr.Nichan *I guess it sounded like you were either saying that Hurrian was Indo-European (but not Indo-Aryan), or that the Mitanni Indo-Aryan superstrate language was not Indo-Aryan (but still Indo-European). (I couldn't tell which language you meant by "Mitanni")*
No, I guess I was just unclear about that.
*It also sounded like you were implying (like David Frawley was) that the Kikkuli text was indeed in the Mitanni superstrate language, and just that that language wasn't "pure Sanskrit" or even quite Indo-Aryan.*
It is hard to remember what I was thinking at the time, but I am fairly certain I was talking about the Indo-Aryan words found in the text.
*I'm also now starting to realize that you MIGHT actually have been saying that archaisms are found in the Mitanni loanwords which are not present in Sanskrit or the Prakrits.*
Yes, that was the point I was making.
Great video....
I admire your willingness to refute pseudo-science. It really requires a lot of patience.
Very well researched response… I am amazed at the level of detail you have gone to bring out inconsistencies in his arguments…
The moment he said that India had a line of 153 kings going back 6000 years, He lost me. Unless those kings were tortoises, I don't see how a sane person can believe that
@Dilshad how many years is one generation for you buddy
@Dilshad so essentially on average the kings ruled 40 years each without overlapping. That's highly unlikely considering the conditions of the time
@Dilshad am talking about what he said in the documentary
So how does Iron prove or disprove AIT if it is a post rig Veda phenomenon?
It doesn't. It shows only that the writings that mention it must have been composed after it came into use.
Why cant this dude just be content with the fact that the numeral 0 was invented in India? That's already a huge contribution to the world!
Thank you for bringing knowledge to the world. It is appreciated!
Really appreciate the way you counters his claims with facts and scientifically supported evidence 👍 👍
No
@@paganwarriors5340 yes
No
@@paganwarriors5340 what a well thought out response, and such a clear explanation of your thoughts on the reasoning behind your response!
Hardly!
Just saying "no" is not a cogent response to any comment. One normally explains one's reasoning behind a disagreement with a comment. That is, if one wants to be taken seriously. 😄
@@MaryAnnNytowl This video has many flaws
I thought the scholar concensus about the Kassites (who ruled Babylonia between 1600-1100 BC) is that they were language isolate but their elite had some connection to indo-european neighbours
I think that is correct, but it's probably impossible to say since almost all the records we have from them were written in Akkadian or Sumerian - all we really have is some personal names and a few words that were borrowed into their Akkadian. It all adds up to few dozen words.
As best as I can find a fijods is like a flood. Found it in some paper written in 1956 talking about a flood that brought up natural salt from the ground. And what they did to try to prevent it from happening again. You asked around 17 min into the vid what this word was.
Ah, thank you.
Ah finally finished both the parts.........congrats on a well thought out video backed up with facts.........it hurts me to see such a person representing my culture.......how much would love a similar video on analysing vedic sciences.......anyway good work......time to watch the atlantis video
43:09 He mentioned Hittite because it's Indo-European (or Indo-Hittite), not because it's Indo-Aryan. His claim is that all Indo-European Languages are descended from an Indian language, probably Sanskrit, though you could sanitize the claim to just be that the PIE Urheimat was in India, and thus PIE could be called an early form of Sanskrit. Also, just because some Kassite words, including God-names look Indo-European, doesn't mean the Kassite language is.
If Sanskrit were the original Indo-European language, then ALL Indo-European languages are Indo-Aryan languages, but that is clearly not the case. That's the point that was being made.
The Plough was also known as Thigh of the Bull's Leg, the 7 stars of the Big Dipper, found in Ursa Major the Great Bear, doesn't have 3 humps, but does have 3 Leaps, the paws of Ursa Major are 3 sets of twin stars, known as the 3 Leaps of the Gazelle, seen during the winter months leaping across the northern horizon.
Thanks David!
Well, here's another guy gonna block you on Twitter.
When are you going to do the Bosnian Pyramids?
No plans to do them yet.
@@WorldofAntiquity PUH-LEEEEEEEEZE, pretty pleeeeeeze!
You're the John Oliver of Archaeology (without the cussing) and that guy has it coming.
It's a natural formation, how long of a video you can sqeeze out of it?
@@yanikkunitsin1466 7-15 minutes should be enough to thoroughly debunk the bosnian pyramid hoax.
Samudra is usually translated as "ocean, sea" and the word itself means "gathering of waters". A minority of scholars translate the term as "river". However, the Samudra is never said to flow in the Rigveda, but to receive all rivers. The Rigveda also describes the Vedic Sarasvati River as a river that flows to the ocean and "is pure in her course from the mountains to the sea". Rigveda 1.71.7 describes the seven great rivers seeking the Samudra and in RV 7.33.8 it is written that all the rivers flow to the Samudra, but are unable to fill it.
RV 7.49 says that the Samudra is the eldest of the waters (samudra jyestha), and that the goal of the rivers is the Samudra.
In RV 1.116.4 the Asvins rescued Bhujyu by carrying him for three days and three nights to the sea's farther shore. Thus Samudra seems to refer to the ocean in this verse. There are many other verses in the Rig Veda which refer to this tale (e.g. RV 1.118.6; VI 62, 6; VII 69, 7; VIII 5, 22), and where consequently Samudra could be identified with the ocean as well.
Some scholars like B.R. Sharma hold that the Rigvedic people may have been shipbuilders engaging in maritime trade. In Rigveda 1.25.7; 7.88.3 and other instances, Samudra is mentioned together with ships. In RV 7.89.4 the rishi Vasishta is thirsting in the midst of water. Other verses mention oceanic waves (RV 4.58.1,11; 7.88.3). Some words that are used for ships are Nau, Peru, Dhi and Druma. A ship with a hundred oars is mentioned in RV 1.116. There were also ships with three masts or with ten oars. RV 9.33.6 says: 'From every side, O Soma, for our profit, pour thou forth four seas filled with a thousand-fold riches."
Hi Gourav,
Thank you for sharing this information. As I mentioned in the video, it is important to differentiate between different samudras. There is the samudra of the heavens, the samudra that the RV people have heard about, and the samudra that the RV people live near. Of these examples you give, which ones do you think fall into the last category, and why? I am surprised that you listed the Vasishta example, because I talked about that in the video. Did you miss that part?
@@WorldofAntiquity nope, i am not missed the part of the Vasishtha, that's why see the comment, i didn't mention any "Salty water", which previously many peoples misunderstood.
@@WorldofAntiquity Well, obviously it seems very unrealistic, to say that Vedic peoples only heard about ocean and makes so many mention in their religious texts.
I know "Samudra", can be interpreted as a large water body, river, lake etc.
That's why I gave u such references where it clearly means, Oceans, look what I Say, "the Samudra is never said to flow in the Rigveda, but to receive all rivers. The Rigveda also describes the Vedic Sarasvati River as a river that flows to the ocean and is pure in her course from the mountains to the sea."
So, here it clearly means a physical Ocean.
The Rigveda also speaks of a western and eastern Samudra (10.136.5-6).
The oldest vedic commentators like the Brihaddevata of Shaunaka, Nighantu and the Nirukta of Yaska interpret the term Samudra as "ocean".
Now, taking all this, if still some peoples assumed that this may came from hearing about oceans from other civilizations, then there's nothing to do about them.
I know that the Mississippi River flows to the Gulf of Mexico, but I have never been there. I've never seen it. Is it unrealistic to believe me? I don't think so. How do I know? Because that knowledge was relayed to me. In ancient times in Egypt, people who had never been to the Nile delta knew that it flowed into the Mediterranean. In ancient Mesopotamia, people who had never seen the mouth of the Euphrates knew that it flowed into the Persian Gulf. I could go on and on with examples.
I don't understand why a western and eastern samudra is significant. Could you explain?
As for the oldest Vedic commentaries you mention, they come from many centuries later, at a time when the people really did live by the ocean.
@@WorldofAntiquity read carefully, the problem with ur opinion is that,
The vedas clearly mention geographical datas also, for example, The Rigveda also describes the Vedic Sarasvati River as a river that flows to the ocean and "is pure in her course from the mountains to the sea". Rigveda 1.71.7 describes the seven great rivers seeking the Samudra and in RV 7.33.8 it is written that all the rivers flow to the Samudra, but are unable to fill it."
Here it clearly talks about Sapta sindhu region, (land of seven rivers),
And about Sarasvati river, the prominent vedic river, around where most of the vedic hymns composed, so, it clearly describes geographical area along with ocean.
I love your neutral stance
But tell me honestly have you read the vedas?
24:22 is the reference to iron that of iron working because if they're referencing iron I'm pretty sure they have a idea of what iron is even if they don't work with it can you give a better explanation.
Wow, I'm really enjoying your videos! I became familiar with you following the chat on Stefan Milo's channel, and I've spent the last couple of days exclusively watching you.
Thank you!
Awesome, thank you!
So did I and don't regret it a bit! This kind of work should get the millions of views, not the crap half baked conspiracy theories.
Hey I have a doubt, I hope you still reply, but would figuring out the language of the Sindhu civilization help in proving or disproving AIT. What if they spoke an older ancestor of Vedic sanskrit or some form of proto dravidian? Also several signs of Hinduism, such as swastika or vermillion on the head of women are found in Sindhu valley civilization. How do they effect this theory?
Yes, if it could be proven that the people of IVC spoke an early form of Sanskrit, that would mean that Sanskrit-speaking people were in the land before the time that AMT (not AIT) says they arrived. As for the other "signs of Hinduism" you mention, no, that would not disprove AMT, because AMT doesn't say that the Indo-Aryan migrants invented all of Hinduism.
@@WorldofAntiquity Sanskrit is foreign language from Russia and Europe
All what you said only strengthens the opposition to AIT/AMT
@@mscreationworks5787 no wtf it's not
@Antares Aryan's are foreigners from Europe
It’s easy to speculate about what went on in the prehistoric and ancient Indus River Valley because there is so little western archeology being reported from the area. We seem to only have a few amazing finds and Hindu mythology. I can’t get over how much info we have on the life of Alexander, until he entered the Indus River Valley. Did Alexander meat Chanakya?
He speaks of ‘the7rivers meet’ is it the 7 or 4 rivers that meet where the bible says Adam and Eve / the garden of eve was? Does this cast any placement of ‘the begining of life
Biggest problem with Indian written sources(mainly basic,puranic literature) is that,it is almost impossible to put them in a chronological order.The writing itself is such that the notion of arrow of time is totally absent in Indian (Vedic)thought.
Characters thousands of year old may be interacting with those who are contemporary or recent.Same with places.Rivers,mountains or forests with same name may be present in several places all over India.
India never write history,it always wrote "purana" where chronology of time and specificity of place is immaterial.
Correction: Basic-> Vedic
Correction:
India never wrote history.
@Shekharam Hanuman of Ramayan enters Mahabharata which is older than Valmiki Ramayana.
Parashuram appears in Ayyappa mythology.
Vishvamitra seen in Mahabharata as well as other mythology.
Stories and characters of many puranas overlap each other.
Many many such instances.
@@gangadharhiremath7306 you fail to suggest that although characters re-occur, there may have been a concrete past to them through which many Indian myths are derived from
@@rushi6130 that old nan won't understand it because he is driven by Anti-hindu agenda