Adam Ondra #77: Sandstone / Extremely Scary Bolting
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- čas přidán 2. 08. 2020
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Bolting topic continues as we move on from limestone in the southeast of Czechia into the northwest of Czechia - onto the infamous sandstone! Here, the bolting ethics are tough as you need to bolt ground up, rappelling from the top is forbidden. Check out the archive footage from 2011 while we open ground up together with Ondra Beneš the hardest route on Czech sandstone - To tu ještě nebylo (This hasn't been here, yet) 9a. Get ready for both scary and funny falls! Good entertainment.
Watch the full movie Od palice k vrtu (From Hammer to Drill) here: www.directalpine.cz/od-palice...
Watch the full movie Z A do B (From A to B) here: vimeo.com/49708424
Get yourself amazed by beautiful pictures in my photobook - AO Book:
• Adam Ondra Book
Have you seen this video of mine ?!
• Adam Ondra #47: The Be...
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Credits:
STORY BY
ADAM ONDRA
ARCHIVE FOOTAGE
VOJTĚCH FRÖHLICH
JAN ŠIMÁNEK
DIRECT ALPINE
EDITED BY
PAVEL KLEMENT
PRODUCTION
JAKUB PÍNA
SUBTITLES BY
JARKA MARČEKOVÁ
EXECUTIVE PRODUCER
PAVEL BLAŽEK
SONGLIST
Cruen - Headswitch
Tenacious Orchestra - Rain Again
ArtMaks - Stomping Party Blues
RJ Wilx - Underneath the Waves
© 2020 AO PRODUCTION S.R.O.
#climbing #bolting #sandstone #rockclimbing #czech #labskepiskovce #drill #scaryfall - Sport
‘Don’t look at it.’ When your placement is so insecure it can’t handle being stared at.
:D
😂😂😂
Relatable
It's so you don't get smacked in the face when it rips....
😂👌
This is one thing I will never agree with in climbing. Harder/Sketchier does not equal good form. Stop damaging the rock with unnecessary chipping. Drop a rope in and create a quality line that damages the rock way less. Also, to anyone who doesn't know, it is highly recommended that you wear safety equipment. Adam did in the last video and I was glad to see it. I have had hooks and cams pop before bolting sandstone. One nearly cost me my eye.... Think if that drill bit had hit him in the top of the head under full falling force.
Agreed. That drill bit would go straight through his skull. If it hit him in the eye it would go through his brain. With that amount of force, that drill bit would go through any part of the human body like a hot knife cuts through butter.
Thankfully there are some climbers left with common sense. All that "traditional ethical rules" are sheer stupidity. And stupidity is always dangerous too.
Not to talk about how wedge bolts are dangerous in sandstone. If they truly wanted to respect the rock, the answer here is to bolt from the top without unnecessarily chipping the rock and drilling more holes than needed, and using stainless steel glue ins that will last for decades.
The "ethics" here are nothing more than toxic macho culture.
Agreed. I don't see the point in chipping a bunch of holes in the rock before you can place a bolt. Also I've been climbing for decades now and I've never seen the appeal of a climb with potential ground fall. I guess I'm not committed enough to die for my hobby.
My question is: Who cares how you bolt a route? Isn't the route identical anyway afterwards?
To clear up some confusion in the comments:
*1) Why is bolting ground up okay but rappelling down is frowned upon?*
a) In the beginnings, there was usually no way to get up without going from the ground, it was about conquering the rock and about the adventure. Not about creating some route.
b) It prevents the routes from being of extreme difficulty, as sandstone climbing is not focused on sports climbing, but more on adventure and feeling.
Edit: I think this could help to understand the motivations beter: *Imagine* the first expedition on Mount Everest
goes there by helicopter, checks where to put camps, places protection, tries the hard sections and THEN goes from the ground up. Everybody would think it is a nonsense. And for climbers it is simillar. They are conquering new routes nobody took ever before. That is why they always want to go from the ground up.
*2) Is chalk allowed?*
a) In general - no. It is a difficult topic though, it varies from the exact area. There are ekological, esthetical and tradition-based reasons. But in general, you should NOT use chalk, whatever the difficulty. Sand is not so much for sports climbing as for just pure adventure. And if your limit with chalk is 8b witch chalk and 7c without chalk. Then why not climb 7c? You will get the same great experience of climbing on your limit.
*3) Damaging the stone.*
a) You just damage it, there is no way around. It is soft, you step on it with climbing shoes, you hold it (sweating or chalking), you place protection. There are rules however, you are not allowed to use any metal (friends, etc...), you use mostly slings or some textils. About bolting, it is a compromise between beeing able to climb relatively safely and damaging stone. There is of course debate with ecologist from that area and you need to follow the specific rules in the given area.
*4) Opinion from British climbers*
Wide Boyz visited these sand stone areas in Czech: czcams.com/video/gLQtytqJ_KM/video.html - some good points are raised there.
*5) Summary*
The rules come from history and traditions, from local climber communities and from ekologists (state). It is a compromise of all three, that is why sometimes it seems there is no sense in it. But it's climbing and we should always find a compromise, so that everyone can enjoy this beautiful sport.
Note: If I missed something or got something wrong, please reply bellow.
Thank you for such a comprehensive explanation. Most rules and conventions in climbing are all decided by the group mentality anyway, and even though those rules seem 'different' it's likely more through the perspective of what I and others are already used to. It seems very roots and passion driven reasons which is a lot of why we all climb anyway:)
What is your thought on areas that allow chalk for a certain grade and no chalk allowed for lower grades? Doesn't seem fair for climbers. Either ban it entirely or it allow for it all. Very odd rule.
bunch of macho bs imo
Fair enough... What I don't get though if someone bolted a route the wrong way so from top down? By cutting out the bolts so someone has to come and place new ones doesn't that just damage the rock more? Wouldn't it be better to just leave them up?
Drilling a small hole to hang from in order to drill a larger hole seems like 2x the destruction to accomplish the necessary protection for climbing... seems like a really antiquated rule that could easily be avoided if you just rappelled down and drilled ONLY the necessary holes for the proper protection for climbing the intended line.
Back in 1981 I placed the first ever bolts in Trøndelag, on a cliff in Fosen which is the neighboring community to Flatanger.I was very scared of critique so I decided I had to place the bolts on lead, in order to link up two crack systems. I drilled 1/4" bolts by hand, using exactly the same technique as shown around 2:30 here. The first one was OK since I found a small ledge to stand on but for the second I only had a square cm-sized crystal for one toe, so after about 15 minutes of drilling I had to downclimb to the first bolt, rest up and then climb up again and finish the job.
The route, "Andromeda" linking "Stairway to Heaven" and "The Milky Way" (translated from their Norwegian names) was very well received, and all subsequent climbs were drilled on a toprope. :-)
Well done--and funny how the rest of the community decided to rap bolt! LOL. Personally, since I don't do FA's, I only care about safe, logical bolting--however it goes down. Some routes I just don't do or back off from if I think the risks are too high--ground/ledge fall potential being the big ones. Props to Ondra for some epic bolting.
@@ScottandJodi The next route was "The Crab Nebula" which starts with a 40+ m slab pitch, traversing in from. the left side, then straight up. We bolted it to avoid ground falls, so bolts after 3, 5, 9, 14 and 25 m.
After leading the first ascent I realized that the top 5m was slightly wet, and likely to be so from a seeping crack, so I rapped down and added one more bolt near the top.
The next 3 pitches are all mixed crack/face climbing, with cams and bolts for protection.
"Navrtavak... tjuk tjuk tjuk, finish!" Makes it sound a lot easier than it looks 😂😂
Petr "Špek" Slanina its a beast
Beast, legend and the most most humble climber that I have ever met.
His last name means bacon.
I really want to age into something like him
You can't toprope but you can drill extra holes. Seems as smart as falling with a drill with no helmet or eye protection.
He is a moron. Don’t be surprised
"You can't toprope but a electrical drill from 2018 is completely fine"
If you can climb like him, you can gripe.
You can’t top rope but from 2022 you can use an helicopter to gunshot the wall
To create the holes
Agreed - I feel that the bolts should be for the benefit future climbers and ideally last longer than our lifetime. Placing bolts in this manner benefits the person because of bragging rights. I guess if this is important than OK, but I'm *so* much more impressed by the first type of bolter that places their needs behind that of others.
I assume the people that chopped those bolts didn’t do that on toprope. That would be bad ethics
Now I realize why the anchor was still there
drew13600 I needed this comment more then you know.
Stay cultured you fantastic man.
@WungusBill brilliant:)
The ground-up ethic applies to the establishment of new routes. It doesn't apply, and there's no reason why it should, to the subsequent 'removal' of a route established in a manner that contravened that ethic - a situation wherein it is generally well known and understood that removal will be the likely outcome. It's simply a job of work to be done; doing it in the most practical and efficient manner, ie on rappel, obviously makes the most sense and allows the neatest, lowest-impact result - which itself is of benefit to the wider climbing population.
@@ip2862 Then why is the bolting itself seen so differently. Why is the most efficient manner with all those benefits not the accepted practice.
I understand that there are traditions and it can be worth keeping them, but gatekeeping a sport or at least the safe practice of that sport for no other reason than tradition seems completely pointless and dangerous to me.
Seems this method of bolting focuses more on ego than safety. If all routes were bolted this way, I wonder how many climbers would have punctured lungs, organs, or missing eyes from falling while holding a drill with a long drill bit and slamming into the wall with it. That 4 to 6 inch inch drill bit has to go somewhere when you fall with it.
Well nobody forces you to do things you consider dangerous in the first place. Isnt the approach "I want to climb, so I make the rock safe for MYSELF" more egoistic? This trad style is not egoistic because you respectfully give the nature the opportunity to refuse you. If its too hard its too hard. No "lets bolt this comfy sports route and see if I can freeclimb that one move on my milionth try and then egoistically say yeah look how possible it is to climb this super hard piece of rock".
If you want a simplier logic - some people still believe the logic that climbing starts on the groung and finishes on the top. Thats just the natural way.
I think it separates the men from the boys.
@@matejkoudelka7429 Enforcing drilling from bot up is gatekeeping and egoistic. Bolting gets reserved for those that don't care having a drill in their head. It's a way to have only a few with the ability to drill so they can have all the routes to their name.
@@EKdlwoasred You do see the irony of your comment, right? You basically admitted that this is just about the ego. I presume women are not allowed to climb in the area either.
shoqed I wouldn’t recommend it
That guys forearms are insane
His arms are so strong because he climbs trad.That in itself is a superb demonstration of why trad is great.
So SKETCHY! But really cool! So glad you made this tradition clear.
včera jsem se o tobě bavil s otcem a ten mně potvrdil, že jseš fakt borec, prej se často stává, že někoho za jeho styl uznávají jen mladší a starší zas ne, nebo obráceně, ale tebe prej obdivují všichni co se tak bavil s lidma z Krasu z jeho speleologické skupiny, kterou dřív dokonce vedl.
Absolutely loving the old school guy and the footage was epic of him working on all the tools and banging that ring in the wall 🤟
if the idea is following the rules, keeping with the tradition, why is an electric drill allowed?
it's allowed for the Ondra
@@va7oloko home court advantage. Its interesting the traditional rules is against bolting from top from an anchor, so, when you can't hammer from ground up the old fashion way, you are allowed to basically drill an anchor, so you could drill for a bolt and in order to open the route, where otherwise not possible.
I'm confused about the whole thing. That's just for safety. You still have to climb. But ok, I guess setting bolts is another challenge in itself.
I'm speechless!!!! You are incredible. all of you!! .........and i love Hilti....
That sandstone looks like the Red River Gorge. If the quantity of rock is similar, the dumb/dangerous ground up ethics are holding that place back and are also adding a bunch of damage to the lines that isn’t necessary...
RRG sandstone is very hard and old. Quality of sandstone varies greatly though; compare RRG to Moab for example.
@@PatrickBeeson I don't know about RRG since I'm from Czechia, but I definitely wouldn't consider this sandstone "very hard"
Love this! Thanks so much for doing it in English - I feel spoiled.
You know what? Tradition doesn't always make sense. And it's not always a good thing.
Sometimes it's just about being too god damn stubborn to get along with the times. For no reason.
The reason is that there is a standard of courage ,and respect for those pioneers who brought you those standards.People who abseil to place the gear often chip handholds too.Climbing is dangerous,or do you want all climbing to be safe ? If so,climb indoors.
@@paulmitchell5349 Climbing is only dangerous because people make it dangerous. Look at the falls Adam takes here. Imagine the drill hitting him in the head. It's as dangerous as you make it. It doesn't need to be. Same goes for UK climbing. Literally no reason for it to be so unsafe except some stupid clinging to some sort of "tradition". But honestly it's just a refusal to get along with modern times.
Also, if chipping holds is a problem for you, what about creating holes that don't need to be there?
@@paulmitchell5349 Those pioneers did what they did to make it safe. They did it in the way that made sense to them at the time, but the whole point of bolting is to make the route safe. Why don't we all just free solo everything all the time? Because it's idiotic and introduces unnecessary risk, even if it is a "purer" form.
@@tribunal009 As Messner says, bolts are the murder of the impossible. So, the less we bolt, the better. Nobody is compelled to climb any section of rock, so they can leave the less well bolted sections unharmed.
@@topanteon lol, that drill hits him in the head even bit first it’s not gonna do much more than cut him a little. Not taking a stance on the traditions but sheesh y’all make it seem like this shit is death defying rather than just scary and more difficult.
Tradition over saftey. Why? Groundfall on a bolted route? I have a friend who almost died becase stupid ass "spaced" old school bolting. And removing (sorry just replacing) pefectly good bolts just becaus you don't agree with the way they were placed… Do we want fewer or more climbers to die?
You are welcome to climb anywhere else you like. Tradition and ethics should be respected. Not every piece of rock should be brought down to every climber's level, be it mental or physical or both.
@@robbiemize Exactly. I guess nobody forced @kostnadseffektiv friend to climb a "stupid ass spaced" route.
Robbie Mize I agree to some point. But there is a difference between respecting tradition and tradition just being completely unnecessarily dangerous.
This is the hardest route in the area. Only four people in the world have done it. Don’t you think it’s a little silly to criticize something that you’ll never be able to touch even on top rope? Or, have you sent all the other “safe” 9a’s in the world and have run out of things to do? The area has a tradition that pre-dates you and yet is still fully embraced by the best climber the world has ever seen, so argue all you want but you just sound like a fool.
@@robbiemize Well I don't agree. Tradition is just tradition. There are good and bad traditions, keeping something just because it is tradition without any valid arguments or good reasons are just stupid.
I think you can think of a few traditions we are really glad to be rid of????
Seems strange. Dangerous for those looking to open climbs and in the end more damaging to the rock.
That being said, its definitely impressive.
Well, not at all...
Placing the protection this way makes the number of bolts significantly lower, which means less damage to the rock and also smaller amount of climbers climbing the route.
Why would you try to prevent your fellow climbers from safety attempting an already bolted and scarred route you set??? If you're going to permanently deface rock outdoors that you do not own, at least have the human decency to bolt and it safely for those who follow. Who needs enemies with a fellow climber like you out there.
@@jw9221 cause it's stupid ego s*it
This is the stuff of climbing history 👏
Looks like you are causing unnecessary damage to the rock because of this silly rule.
The bolts would go in at twice the density if he were rap bolting, so I beg to disagree.
@@robbiemize why ?
So true
Securing the route this way means less bolts -> smaller damage to the rock.
And less climbers on the route -> less damage to the rock too.
Robbie Mize The only reason the bolt density’s is lower is because its such a pain to put them in ground up. You could easily have the same bolt density from top roping but we choose not too since taking whippers every fall isn’t fun or safe.
Wow thats gnarly. What a cool new route.
Why not rappel though? What's the purpose? All I see is more damage done to the rock (making temporary holes for example) in order to be able to say you bolted it the hard way.
Amazing episode! 👏
Now I have another hero on my list: the legendary SPEK! 🤘
Wouldn’t bolting it from the ground up just deface the rock even more, since you sometimes drill that small hole to get into a more comfortable position? This trad dad logic isn’t adding up
Most likely there would be fewer bolts only when necessary so maybe it adds up to being the same, some also fill in and disguise holes.
I see a lot of people in the comments staing the same points about the inconsiderate nature of this tradition with regards to erosion and excessive bolt placing, so I'll try to avoid being redundant. But if anyone wants to learn about the antithesis of this destructive climbing tradition, look into the canyoneering community of southern Utah (who, coincidentally, also deal with sandstone). The canyoneers of that region are militant about "ghosting" their routes wherever possible - climbing, hiking, and rappeling without leaving a trace. No bolts, not even leaving behind slings and hardware on rappels, all in the name of maintaining a pristine backcountry for future generations.
SPEK Is a Badass, to do 2000+ first ascents this way of climbing.
I'm sorry, I... can someone explain to me exactly how chipping in aid placements could be considered "less damaging" than rap bolting?
It's a question of "style" ;)
Issues that bottom bolting try to fix are: 1. too many bolts or bolts on the crux, bolts from bottom are where you can stand after a crux. 2. irrelevant climbers bolting whatever in a whatever way 3. irrelevant climbers repeating the routes 4. relevant or irrelevant climber bolting too many routes.
ps. the monster traditional guy did not use a battery drill. what a monster.
@@constantinosschinas4503 What the hell is an "irrelevant climber"? That doesn't mean anything. Just makes you sound elitist.
Such great content!
Thanks for sharing these stories! But still a lot of mysteries linked to very old and unexpected crazy lines and routes over the world; thinking to the technology of the past etc. But ok, lot have be done in these last 50 yaears, but still!!!
Would love to see more sandstone climbing, cause fro. What I know, it's pretty unique, and I feel you could give us some good tips
Yeah, the longer this video goes, the dumber thos rule looks
Honestly that seems like a pretty dumb rule. You are absolutely limiting how hard the routes are that you can create AND you are likely to deface the rock even more. Great job though Adam, that looks scary as heck
Historically, this was developed as a trad climbing area. So it's part of the challenge to climb ground up into the unknown. And I see no reason why a climbing area should be valued based upon the amount or sheer existence of hard routes. Sometimes it's worth leaving a line for future (stronger) generations of climbers.
It's time for these damaging and dangerous tradition to go.
Route setting should only be about placing the safety gears in the safest and least damaging way possible.
The adventure or what not came after, on your climb, with all the safety equipments already set.
It'd be great if you can be the change, Adam
Yeah lets make all climbing in the world safe. Not an adventure activity any more right? Who needs adventure right? I mean - imagine whitewater kayaker padding boulder in the rapids they run with rubber to avoid hurting themselves by hitting these boulders. Imagine base jumpers setting a giant trampoline over the whole canyon they jump into because you know, base jumpers could hit somethink omg! Its not "this is ME and the nature is MY playgroung I make it suitable and safe for MY activities that I MYSELF enjoy. Respect the natures right to say no.
You dont like this? I get it. I dont like to come to a nice rock and feel there like I am in a gym.
You've got thousands of crags all over the world better suited for your needs. Simply go there. Places like these are extremely rare and should be preserved.
@@matejkoudelka7429 Wholly agree. This playground/gym kind of pushing for safety first... If safety is your prime concern, why get out of bed? You might sprain your ankle.
@@matejkoudelka7429 If you want to respect the nature, why are you piercing it with a drill? If bolting is forbidden, fine, climb trad, but this kind of "ethics" is just ass-backwards, it's neither about preserving nature nor about safety
I will start arrogantly like you - Who are you to tell us how to bolt our rock? Who are you to question traditions which are here with us over 100 years? You may find it dangerous, you may find it out-dated but you are obliged to respect it.
I am not a climber so if anyone could explain I would appreciate. Who makes the "rules" and who has the right to remove bolts from the rock just because they don't like the way they were bolted? Unless the bolts were unsafe I really can't understand.
No one makes the rules but in specific areas there are traditions that are persisted by local climbers. If a local tradition gets violated then sometimes the locals will try to reverse it like in this case, by removing bolts. Different groups of locals can disagree and the agreed rules can change over time. If you're in a new area it's always a good idea to check in a local guidebook to see what the specific rules are for the area (for example whether you are allowed to use chalk).
There are more globally agreed upon rules in climbing that are equally contrived but somehow get a wider agreement such as what constitutes a valid ascent of a sport route vs a trad route, how routes are graded etc but even then there are arguments and disagreements
@@aspuzling Actually, in this area the rules are specifically written down and part of the national park. The local climbing club controls these rules, and so far, they have always voted to preserve them. On the german side, in the "Sächsische Schweiz", they are legally binding, because they made there way into the state legislature. Most of the local climbers see the inherent value of all the rules and traditions. It keeps the "adventure" spirit alive. I can only incourage everyone to try it, if you will ever come here.
@@victorgeissler1143 Interesting. Thanks for the insight.
@@aspuzling this reminds me of the part in the valley uprising documentary where the guy, i forgot his name, went up the wall removing bolts because he was against it hahahaha
Well nothing much to understand it’s just stupid. A lot of traditions in the world are stupid, not only that one
Without knowing this man i can tell he is living a fullfilled life, even still in his age, just by bolting those routes
Ha ha yes, I too have opinions on the ethics of rap bolting and the tradition of ground-up bolting.
Are helmets angainst tradition?
a bit..:-)
Michal Lašan hahaha very good point. All or nothing. Not some comfy bits like no edge sportiva shoes just youre huge mountain boots from 1910. Lets see ANYONE 9a or even 8a on those. If not - lets just bolt & climb the new safe fun and insanely hard rote producing way over there too, shall we?
@Michal Lašan I ment it more like, that most of tardition sand stone czech climbers do not wear helmet.. Helmets are not against tradition.
does a hat counts?
Thing is, sandstone is very soft and easy to damage. Placing less bolts has many reasons, it prevents loads of gymclimbers trying everything, it's fking hard and old climbers put rings just where they needed. If the route had places for trad protection - slings, kinderkopfs, the used them, so many routes have just one or two rings.
Also the rules state that you have to put bolts max 30cm from your drill, you have to keep 3m distance between bolts.
Adam, it’s time for perfecto mundo
Wow, that drop while still holding that drill. Mad respect!
nobody said traditions should be logical!
But saying something is "tradition" or the way it has always been done is no justification.. Humans need to constantly evolve and learn
@@timmurray9543 The justification for traditional rules is that they are the results of evolutionary processes - the growth of traditions - unlike abstract/logical rules... so your comment is kind of ironic.
Yes I still say burn the witch it's tradition.
@@skunkworksu7638 not sure if your comment is serious, but it's deeply and darkly ironic if you consider the history of witch burning
Superbe!
Outstanding work respecting and showing the culture of climbing as it has evolved in your area. It was terrifying seeing you take that whipper whilst drill in hand. You truly have to pay the price of admission to establish truly hard routes ground up. This type of bolting will always garner the greatest respect among true pioneers of the sport.
Just use a horse and drop the car/van as a way of transportation. Ethics say that traditional ways of transportations are the correct ones. Cars are evils work.
I think that a harness and climbing shoes shouldn't be allowed either, ruins the ethics. Free soloing is the purest form of climbing.
I understand it, but I hate those rules. Keeping them is form of elitism - few people keep common rock for themself’s, leaving average joe away. It is ego thing, not tradition.
Not really. the rules are arbitrary, but they apply irrespective of climbing ability (like almost all ethical guidelines do). You could be a F6a climbing ground-up drilling a F5, or a F9b climber ground-up drilling. On easier lines there will be more features and options to hang on / hook on etc while bolting, so that's fairly open for the average joe....
It's because making it more difficult to bolt, ensures that people will not bolt routes that are too difficult. Since the person bolting it has to climb it with added gear and it's so sketchy, he can only bolt routes that are below his max grade. I wonder if it's allowed to free solo it, then place an anchor at the top and rappel down to place the rest of the bolts, to avoid the climbing with a drill part.
Adam always killin it man. Love this shit bro
British climbers: you guys are placing bolts??
who's placing bolts? Lets lynch them!
@@TobyClimbs not "bolts", usually 1 bolt for whole route from 40 up to 150 feet long
@@TobyClimbs oh dadi dadi sawwwwww me in the danuiel
Just that they dont climb 9a
@@michaelniessner9489 Dave Macleod: Am I a joke to you?
Very impressive. I'll stick with rap bolting :). What are the rules about chalk in this area?
Well, it's complicated and if you want to start complete shit storm then ask a group of Czech sandstone climbers about chalking.
The current state is that it is divided in locations where chalk is permitted (more "sport" areas, like Labák in video) and more traditional areas where chalk is completely prohibited. If you want to get the feeling you can watch Spradventure - climbing film with Wideboyz, where the ethics are shown.
The oppinons on chalking on sandstone vary and we are not really moving anywhere, aspects as esthetic (white spots), tradition, ethics (comparison of grades) and others come in game.
Hope this will help you, anyone don't hesitate to ask further, I will answer, if I know.
Officially, it also differs in the Labak area (Elbe river valley) that is shown here: On the right side it's forbidden, but on the left side (where Adam's route is located) it's allowed. In practice, it's used on both sides, more on the left side I would say. I can't say I like the current practice - chalk is used extensively, no one really brushes holds when cleaning the route, resulting in greasy, smeary holds that practically force you to use chalk too. Since I also climb a lot on the german side in Elbsandstone (where chalk is completely banned) I have to say that there's a massive difference in friction to the white polished holds in Labak. I understand the desire to use it for hard routes, but please give the holds a brush when rappelling down after you've finished your route. People tend to forget (or ignore) that this is not granite or limestone where chalk doesn't really have an effect on the rock quality. The sandstone here is coarse-pored - chalk clogs the pores and makes it more slippery. And since it's hygroscopic, especially pockets are often not only slippery but also a bit wet. As I said, if every climber would clean the route afterwards, the mentioned effects could be minimized. The reality shows a different image though ...
I wonder what the ethic police think of the Dawn Wall at Yosemite cuz they set that route via top rope. And Tommy Caldwell spent years drilling bolts
That high up would be nuts . I would imagine bolting from the bottom would borderline be impossible
I suspect that TC spent years figuring out where the route would actually go. Drilling bolts - to avoid interference will other routes - would have been a later consideration.
i think TC is the police, prosecutor, judge and the entire ethics government of that route lol. He spent soo much time on it, he deserves it
they dont care - different area, different rules ... with that said, there sure was a lot of ethics conflicts in yosemite historically
Sweet vid!
I find it absurd to keep such a dangerous first ascent tradition above long term route safety. A route should be analyzed, and determine where the best spots to clip from are, how close bolts need to be, etc. While this type of first ascent might be "epic" or "traditional", it just damages the rock unnecessarily and results in what looks to be poorly bolted routes.
Edit: Also why remove someone else's bolts? If the route is already bolted, just climb it? It seems childish to remove someone else's work just because the process wasn't what you wanted it to be. The end result was literally the same, if not safer and more efficient. Not only childish but selfish, since your (any climber, not necessarily Adam) ascent is so important that it undermines this permanent route that many people might want to climb later on.
Let me guess; you were introduced to climbing in the gym, have ZERO understanding on the historical significance of Bohemia/Saxony Free Climbing?
@drew13600 ...... your lack of knowledge & familiarity with the area explains the vapidity of your statement.
Chuck Pratt was correct in his prognostications regarding Climbing if it ever became popular
czcams.com/video/0jd3Gx9FzOA/video.html
@@robertnewell4054 Just cause it's historically significant, doesn't mean it's not stupid.
I know I couldn't do that climb much less all the drilling and whatnot. Very Impressive Adam. I love the quality content on this channel.
That ending... so scary!!
DOUBLE ENTONDRA
so cool
You guys complaining about it being silly are missing the point. Nobody is forcing you to climb a potentially dangerous route on a czech sandstone. It's always your choice. You can always climb a safer sport route instead of those dangerous trad routes.
And opening routes ground-up makes perfect sense to me. It's about showing respect to the old tradition that slowly dissapeas. To keep it alive. It's a bit of nostalgy thing. Climbers were always driven by that adventurous curiosity "hey, what's up there? What can you see from that tower? How does it look on the top of that crag? How does it feel to get up there? etc." so they just started climbing it, because that's the part of the adventure - to step into unknown. Is it bold? Yes. Is it silly? Yes. Like every adventure is. They started from the ground because often they didn't have another option or it was part of a fairplay when you just gave the rock the chance to win and you fought to deserve the top. By starting from the ground the sandstone trad climbers give the respect to that nostalghy and to those first ascents and old climbers. And as I said, you dont have to climb it, nobody is forcing you, you can pick easier routes where the first bolt is not 20m above the ground. Some rules are stupid, some are not. And setting route from the ground is absolutely fundamental tradition for the sandstone climbing comunity. Btw adventures were never meant to be safe...that is why safe climbing gyms popped out. You can climb there safely...but for many oldschoolers it just doesn't feel right.
You can build an elevator to K2. Would it be safer? Yes, it would. Would it be fair to that mountain? Not at all. Would it be adventure to get up there? Not anymore. It's the same thing. You choose the game you play. And it is played this way in the sandstone area. Deal with it:)
Exactly!
So many queastions here about the rules bottom to top placing bolts (mostly rings in sandstone areas). This rule has its justification.
Many areas has towers, so to get up on it you have to climb it first. Thats how placing from bottom to top started. Its been more than 100years ago, and those people didnot have harness, nylon rope, modern carabines, climbing shoes...they had just hempropes
Another thing is sanstone rocks are mostly in national parks or protected landscape areas, so climbing is not alowed there at the basics and climbing association has to ask for climbing permissions (every few years I think) and I think making routes bottom to top is in this permission declarations so we have to and want to obey those rules.
Also this rule is kind of protection against anyone can drill anywhere he likes. If you climb there, you would understand. Its not a concrete, its a cracky, crumbling rock. If you make climbing a lunaparks there, rocks would be damaged after few years od decades. By this way, sandstone climbing is not for everyone, basicaly not for beginers but there is pleny of easy routes, but they are not bolted as sport climbing routes, the have protection just where you need it, or you need to place your own protections (knots, slings...). So its mostly adventurous climbing. Harder routes are better protected, but 4-8m fall is normal there. Hope it is undestandable. You can find many videos on youtube (sandstone climbing in czech republic) also I have a few on my channel. May the force be with you...
The other side of that mountain on the west side is in germany. I climbed there couple of times. In that part only some metal rings are bolted in the rock, places where you cant place anything. Why? Because Germany doesnt want to break sandstone mountains so climbers can only place slingknots without any metal parts. It is scary af so you normally climb way below your grade. That place is awesome tho, its called Die Saechsiche Schweiz.
So, it looks and sounds extremely dangerous for no good reason.
But hey, if you want to do it this way - sure, whatever, go for it (maybe think about the rescue personal you endanger when they have to rescue you)
But don't take out gear someone else properly placed for their safety! THIS is arrogant amongst other things.
And to all the guys saying top down puts in more bolts than bottom up - you can simply make rules about that, in fact there really should be a min/ max distance placement rule
If climbing that route means having to fear a groundfall, that's gatekeeping (You don't want to clip it, then just don't; in fact why not go free solo) It also negates the use of bolts aka safety equipment in the first place
It's not like 9a routes are highly frequented in the first place ; Plus most climbers nowadays respect the environment/ LNT
Man is going to destroy every mountain and rock for fun and ego.
Genuine question from a newbie, but would it be allowed to ground climb a route and find a good location for a bolt, mark it somehow, come down, and then rapbolt it in that position? So you're technically adding the bolts in from the ground up, one at a time as you gradually figure out the route and mark them, and then you're in a much more secure position when actually drilling / hammering the bolt.
Some climbing ethics are baffling like thou shall walk off before placing rap anchors...never mind that the walk off routes frequently trash the environment a thousand times more than rap anchors. Or how about... It is ok to leave multiple slings of different colors questionable age with a rap ring on a tree but rap anchors would be soooo unethically unsightly. Or how about if there is a moderate section on a trad route it is better to be a man and climb a 50 feet or more unprotected or maybe lasso a chicken head or place a micro nut on some sandstone patina flake than placing some bolts. Ya gotta do what ya gotta do to get that climbing badge.
Kudos
That man is awesome not many can hang on toe holds and one hand hand drill how bad ass is that dude
You're lucky to still have your eyes, Adam. If you're gonna follow crazy rules that literally increase the danger for no good reason, at least wear SERIOUS equipment doing it. We don't wanna hear about something unfortunate happening to you.
It was history of his first bolt,, did u know how many route adam has already bolt until now?, He already doing it rightway
Ondra: This hold is surprisingly quite good.
The Hold: 6 mm slopey crimp.
i always wondered how routes were bolted where you couldn't rappel thanks for this
So, my question is, is there really any place you can't rappel? I mean, I guess you can't always afford to get a helicopter to drop you off, but is any kind of bolting and climbing really the only way to reach the top of some places?
So in essence: Opening up a route there is done in an unsecure way that leads to fewer and more spaced out clips that, on top of that, are of poorer quality. "We do it this way because we allways did." - Person who does not give a damn about the safety of others
Then stay in the fucking gym.
@@robertnewell4054 Being sex deprived, I implore you to direct me to a nearby fucking gym for practice.
@george mira ..... start in Amsterdam...easy pickings there
Wow that’s fing cool man
It's really scary !
I’m ignorant to why we should keep this as the process, but very interested. Could you elaborate a bit?
КРУТО!!!!
Respect.
Ground Up. Yes!
Wow, this last part looks very very refreshing, I’m sure it’s better than coffee :)
I prefer more bolts on the route 🤣
Why is drilling two holes to place the bolt kosher but just rap bolting not? I get the whole adventure ethic, but it seems overly macho and unsafe. If you didn't want to damage the rock more than necessary that's cool, but now there's three holes instead of one, not counting the holes for the bolts that got chopped. So now there are four times the holes on the route. Super cool route and I don't mean to be hating, I just don't really understand.
i was surprised to see that people do lead climbing on sandstone, i only recently got into climbing on sandstone and one of the first rules they told me was not to lead or trad and only top rope to avoid damaging the rock, however, the sandstone i see in your videos look way more solid, i wonder how different the feel must be between the types, have you ever tried climbing in southern sandstone in UK, real slippery rock, but beautiful climbs non the less.
They (atleast at the German Site of the place) say that by avoiding top rope only skilled enough climbers can try the route thus limiting the risked of breaking stuff. Also it’s only allowed to use bolts that are already there or some kind of sling and your rope, no extra metal gear
@@wasauchimmer723 aaaah thats a very good point, they should do the same in uk, cos the rock is super damaged in so many places
Probably my favorite video yet! I love the ethics, the history & the spicy whippers!
100% agree
That swinging drill and none of them wearing helmets is terrifying. Hope Adam doesn't go the way of Brad Gobright.
I was waiting for the followup of the new 9c project 🥺
Yep this is free solo l love it
Artisan bolting!
People will definably pay extra for that.
Hooking and bolting without eye protection is crazy ass! Only for Eastern Europeans!
Czech republic is in central Europe, not Eastern Europe.
Sick.
One of the best episodes 👍
What does lead vs top rope have to do with ethics. I don't understand
my hands are sweating from watching
wow !
Can someone explain to me why it’s okay to use the anchors that were placed “against the rules”? Is it because it would be silly to place new anchors when they are already there?
So scary 😱😱
It seems arbitrary and silly.
All climbing is arbitrary and silly, if you really think about it. The rules are made up, and they do not matter. However, adhering to traditions (in a given area) produces a very unique experience. I would encourage you to visit czech or german sandstone and climb some routes. It is a very different experience to "normal" sport or trad climbing. Is it better or worse? Noone can say, it is subjective personal preference. But it is a very unique experience, and there is only one are in the area in the world where people can enjoy it. It would be a shame if route developers no longer adhered to the tradition - czech/east german sandstone would become "just another" sport climbing destination.
@drew13600 You say "inarguably worse" - but i did argue that it is not worse, the reason being that it produces a unique experience. You did not go into that argument. If you don't like climbing in that style this is fine - 99.9% climbing areas do not adhere to the rules that you find ridiculous. Please note that i do not advocate to make the style i czech/east germany the standard climbing style, nor do i claim that it is superior. I am just arguing to preserve it in those areas.
@drew13600
So i assume you just go around retrobolting all trad climbs in your area then?
So a few things: first, the rules here are not uniqueness for the sake of uniqueness:
1) The way the routes are put up (ground-up) influences their quality, producing good lines rather than directissimas.
2) fewer bolts/bolts only where nessesary often add a mental challenge, which - to some - is part of climbing. Also less damage to the rock. ( I know people are criticizing the "helper" hole used in the video, but if you look at a typical route in the area, the bolts are waaayyy more spaced than in a typical sport climbing area - so rock impact is overall minimized)
3) Third, no chalk (rule in some places here) means sweaty hands, but also less impact on the rock and more of an "adventure-style" climb - it is a lot harder to find the correct beta in an onsight attempt when you don't see chalk marks.
4) no metal pro - again, reduces impact on the rock (which is very soft)
Secondly, please consider that "typical" sport climbing is also arbitrary. There are rules for what constitutes a red point - you cannot rest on a bolt even if that would reduce your chance of falling higher up on the route, thereby reducing danger of an accident - that are just made up, but are consensus now. Another example would be lead climbing is a whole (why not just toprope it all? much safer). Climbing as a whole is unnessesarily dangerous as evidenced by sport climbing accidents, of which there are plenty - it is certainly safer to just go on a hike.
Im not saying that sport climbing is bad either - just that multiple styles can coexist. It makes no sense to argue about the best style, or the one that makes the most sense. If you look at it really closely, they all don't make any sense, and area all unnessecarily dangerous. The same argument you use against traditional czech/eastgerman climbing is one that my grandmother might use against sport climbing.
This is a whole other level of contrived
Doing this instead of coming from above and using a power drill, it’s just making climbing more insecure, and all the extra holes for the hooks are not good for the rock either.
Having huge distances between bolts goes against having bolts in the first place. Bolts are there to avoid ground falls.
This is why we have to abolish all the absurd ethics and just be safe.
You sound like you started climbing yesterday my dude.
@@vashusan1984 For somebody who seems to value tradition and respect, this comment sure seems disrespectful. I don't really understand why it's necessary to insult somebody who has a different viewpoint.
@@Cayreth Just calling out an ignorant individual who's comment suggests they don't care about the generations that came before us, who literally paved the way so we could enjoy this sport as it exists today. If you can't handle a bit of tongue in cheek sarcasm I suggest you spend your time away from any internet comment board. I'm fine playing nice, but I have no trepidation with calling out ignorant bullshit when I see it.
@@vashusan1984 I have no doubt that the said individual, upon reading your comment, has seen all the flaws in their viewpoint and will immediately begin respecting the generations that came before us. Job well done, my dude! I'm not sure if this internet comment board has ever seen such an definitive and resolute reversal of opinion before. A standing ovation to you!
@@Cayreth 😭
You can get Hilti guns that shoot nails into concrete using a little gunpowder shot. I wonder if someone could design something like that only shooting an anchor instead of a nail.
I rate the climbing but i dont understand the bolting ethics. Its been bolted, but from the top, so we will cut all them bolts, except the top anchor for some reason. Then redrill them all from the bottom, drilling extra holes for all sorts of aid on the way up? It cant be about the damage....it cant be about the sportsmanship so what is it?
I am glad the Drill didn't hit him in the head. Not wearing a Helmet doing this totally crazy.... like the other comments I also find it quiet stupid to rip off existing bolts (and leaving the top cause they needed it). Better a safe Route then traditions and disabled climbers....
Always calls a Drill a drilling machine :D
Well I can’t agree on the bolting 🤔 but respect to the guys who open these climbs