@@Ziad3195 Well we are now having this useless conversation... I listened to this video in its entirety to make sure I was giving Gossec a fair chance. And some of it is nice. I appreciated the "Grivois" movement as it had nice melody and counterpoint. But there are so many mistakes and missed opportunities that my ear picked up in the other movements... to a Baroque ear, classical (or proto-classical/galant) music has many harmonic and melodic aberrations that inhibit its enjoyment. I'll give some examples. Gossec opens the overture with a striking melodic statement in a minor key and never develops it. Of course, a beautiful fugue on this subject is too much to ask from Gossec (although he allegedly studied with Rameau, so he should have learned how to construct one), but some counterpoint rather than fortissimo tremolo and percussion/brass strikes on the downbeat would be enjoyable. Another aberration I was severely annoyed by was in the “Air for the Swiss.” Gossec opens with what I hear as a D chord (my ears have been trained on A=440), which quickly moves through the use of a G# to an A chord with an “A” being held by the clarinet. This occurs for the first time at about 16:34. Then the clarinet makes a “turning” motion to another A. This turn goes B, A, G natural, A. This I hear as extremely jarring and unpleasant, the music having just modulated to A through using G#. To use G natural in the context of A major as a surprise, and to repeat it, my ear finds distasteful. Gossec was not stupid, though, as he uses the G natural as the seventh of the A chord to come back to D, but that ruined this movement for me. My pretty little Baroque ears could not handle it. Which brings me to your reference to Rameau's operas allegedly foreshadowing Gossec's style. This I would like to dispute. I was interested to see if Gossec's earlier works were less Classical and more Baroque, so I listened to his Requiem, composed in 1760, while Rameau was still alive. The Baroque style is not quite dead in 1760, although its adherents are waning. Gossec's Requiem has already embraced the classical soul, I'm sure you will agree. The preference for stating ideas and immediately pivoting to another idea, drifting about at the whimsy of the composer, is something I find frustrating and very emblematic of the classical style. This I concede is a matter of taste, as another listener might find this quite engaging. But let me be more specific, Rameau's use of clarinets and brass, along with declarative string movements in the overture to Zoroastre do not constitute foreshadowing of Gossec's overture here. Likewise, the use of strong percussion on the downbeat as Gossec seems to enjoy too much is hardly evidence of influence, certainly not evidence of any substantive stylistic relation. How Gossec could incorporate so little of Rameau's style is astonishing to me, which was the message I intended to convey in my original comment. Also meant to be conveyed was my disappointment that Rameau did not have 50-80 years worth of imitators after his death, after which he was largely and quickly forgotten. I also fail to see where in Rameau’s Cinquième Concert you find stylistic resemblance to Gossec. Certainly not in “La Forqueray,” a fugal movement. You must be referring to “La Cupis,” as “La Marais” and “L'Indiscrète” are solidly Baroque. As for “La Cupis,” it has the wonderful harmonic and contrapuntal richness that few besides Rameau could combine in a slow movement, which does not seem very classical to me. My apologies for the length of this comment, as French Baroque music for me is at times a consuming passion.
Et c'est Robespierre qui s'y colla!un spécialiste de" l'"égalité"ah pour trancher il tranchait!si le mouvement des sans culottes commençait à nouveau à se faire sentir ,et qu 'un petit nouveau prenait la suite du guillotin ,je n'en serais pas!amen!
Elegantly. Gossec always Excellently written - Excellently performed.
How did we go from Rameau to this!!! 🥲
I basically did 😹
@@Ziad3195 Well we are now having this useless conversation... I listened to this video in its entirety to make sure I was giving Gossec a fair chance. And some of it is nice. I appreciated the "Grivois" movement as it had nice melody and counterpoint. But there are so many mistakes and missed opportunities that my ear picked up in the other movements... to a Baroque ear, classical (or proto-classical/galant) music has many harmonic and melodic aberrations that inhibit its enjoyment.
I'll give some examples. Gossec opens the overture with a striking melodic statement in a minor key and never develops it. Of course, a beautiful fugue on this subject is too much to ask from Gossec (although he allegedly studied with Rameau, so he should have learned how to construct one), but some counterpoint rather than fortissimo tremolo and percussion/brass strikes on the downbeat would be enjoyable.
Another aberration I was severely annoyed by was in the “Air for the Swiss.” Gossec opens with what I hear as a D chord (my ears have been trained on A=440), which quickly moves through the use of a G# to an A chord with an “A” being held by the clarinet. This occurs for the first time at about 16:34. Then the clarinet makes a “turning” motion to another A. This turn goes B, A, G natural, A. This I hear as extremely jarring and unpleasant, the music having just modulated to A through using G#. To use G natural in the context of A major as a surprise, and to repeat it, my ear finds distasteful. Gossec was not stupid, though, as he uses the G natural as the seventh of the A chord to come back to D, but that ruined this movement for me. My pretty little Baroque ears could not handle it.
Which brings me to your reference to Rameau's operas allegedly foreshadowing Gossec's style. This I would like to dispute. I was interested to see if Gossec's earlier works were less Classical and more Baroque, so I listened to his Requiem, composed in 1760, while Rameau was still alive. The Baroque style is not quite dead in 1760, although its adherents are waning. Gossec's Requiem has already embraced the classical soul, I'm sure you will agree. The preference for stating ideas and immediately pivoting to another idea, drifting about at the whimsy of the composer, is something I find frustrating and very emblematic of the classical style. This I concede is a matter of taste, as another listener might find this quite engaging.
But let me be more specific, Rameau's use of clarinets and brass, along with declarative string movements in the overture to Zoroastre do not constitute foreshadowing of Gossec's overture here. Likewise, the use of strong percussion on the downbeat as Gossec seems to enjoy too much is hardly evidence of influence, certainly not evidence of any substantive stylistic relation. How Gossec could incorporate so little of Rameau's style is astonishing to me, which was the message I intended to convey in my original comment. Also meant to be conveyed was my disappointment that Rameau did not have 50-80 years worth of imitators after his death, after which he was largely and quickly forgotten.
I also fail to see where in Rameau’s Cinquième Concert you find stylistic resemblance to Gossec. Certainly not in “La Forqueray,” a fugal movement. You must be referring to “La Cupis,” as “La Marais” and “L'Indiscrète” are solidly Baroque. As for “La Cupis,” it has the wonderful harmonic and contrapuntal richness that few besides Rameau could combine in a slow movement, which does not seem very classical to me. My apologies for the length of this comment, as French Baroque music for me is at times a consuming passion.
@@Ziad3195 -- Wow...looks like "Masada" tore you a whole new one.....Condolences....from Acapulco!
@@MasadaBaroqueHoly shi dude when you argue, you *argue*
15:19 24:36
Wonderfully heroic!
Et c'est Robespierre qui s'y colla!un spécialiste de" l'"égalité"ah pour trancher il tranchait!si le mouvement des sans culottes commençait à nouveau à se faire sentir ,et qu 'un petit nouveau prenait la suite du guillotin ,je n'en serais pas!amen!
K. Popper - "the attempt to achieve equality endangers freedom and that, if freedom is lost, there will be no equality among the unfree."
Was this ballet ever performed?
Beaucoup d' athées se réclament de la République et oublient cette devise toute franc-maçonnique