PT & Bike Fitter RESPONDS to Wide Drop Bar Trend...Are they bad for you?
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- čas přidán 31. 05. 2024
- Should you try wide drop bars? We talk with our friend Kevin from PedalPT in Portland, a physical therapist and bike fitter on the new wide drop bar trend. Help support non competitive cycling content! / pathlesspedaled
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Thanks so much Russ for this fun opportunity- 🙏🏻☺️ I had a blast!! For those of you who might be interested, I’ve got lots of other useful videos on Bike Fit and managing cycling pains on my CZcams channel too!
These interviews are gold Russ. Professional advice from the source.
Back in the '80s, lots of roadies went from 40 cm shoulder width to 42 cm. Slightly wider provides more room to breathe, but don't hurt the shoulders when on the hoods or in a full tuck. More leverage provided, the bike handles more cushiony.
Great video Russ thanks for taking the time to put it together, Kevin is full of amazing knowledge and just seems so stoked its great to watch. .
Thanks Russ! I was waiting for an article, video with exact this title for a long time!
Great interview and guest. The last few minutes of quick fit points was great.
What a wonderful guest. I'm not much of a talking head video fan, but this was worth it. Great job.
What an interesting guy. So easy to listen to. Great info thanks.
Excellent content. I learned a lot. Thanks Russ
Absolutely great Interview with great tips. Especially the tips starting at 24:00 are pure gold. I just did a bike fit after more than 10 years of intense riding and like he said, the small adjustments really can make a huge difference. In my case especially the cleat and saddle position.
Thanks Russ!
T hi ry
for real! I'm a fixed gear rider who doesn't use cycling clothes and uses straps instead of clipless, so probably couldn't justify getting a fit for myself, but following those tips might get my 90% there.
That was a great interview!
Added to watchlist. Haven't got time to watch it all now, but I'll add that I recently went narrower on my bars and it revolutionised my kneck and shoulder pain on my road bike. I can feel the difference instantly as my muscles relax. On my gravel bike, I'm pretty much in my road position (not overly aggressive) so did the same, but went with a flared bar. Again, it is much better. I'm now looking at going much more flared to try and give me the best of both worlds.
You are really smart. I have a few of your wind screens and pot supports🎉. Every thing I purchase from you works as it should and trouble free. Thanks
I like my Batman position. It's definitely slower though. I think the narrow bar paradigm has its roots in racing, and I think a lot of people are just used to certain things. Muscle memory is real. I grew up on mountain bikes with medium-wide bars so I didn't learn to hold myself up with my elbows and neck, I learned to ride on my chest and hands. If I had cut my teeth on a road bike, I may have learned differently. Even as a teenager I had neck and forearm pain from narrow bars, both flats and drops.
Don't get flared drops if you spend most of your time in the hoods. I thought that was obvious but I guess it's not since he had to mention it.
I've used Red shifts Kitchen sink bars for 2 years and love them. As a swimmer for decades my shoulders never fit road bars . I put the Ritchey wide bars on my road bikes after loving wide bars on gravel. Most of my miles is in unpaved 12k+ yearly.comfort is good? Double wrapped bars . Wide tires. If it fits , you like riding it
He is very knowledgeable! Waiting for my bike to get delivered. Scary listening to him. He pretty much discussed every joint pain!
I feel you should be changing your position often. Everything from handlebar angle, seatpost height variations, seat movement to prevent repetitive injury.
Good video! And I see that you too finally have spring, no touque and outdoors
Great interview!
This is amazing. More of this!
Love Kevin. This was gold!
Russ, great topic for an interview for us luddites.
Shout out to the Mavic Cosmos wheel in the background.
I need the cliff notes
Great stuff this Russ. 👍
Definitely wish more PTs did bike fit work, for all the reasons your guest discussed.
What a fantastic interview. Whenever someone asks me about fit problems, I always recommend going to a PT who does bike fit, which, come to think of it, is something my PT does. What a coincidence. And I sure agree about flare: my favorite drop bar is the Salsa Cow Bell. 12 deg of flare presents the hoods perfectly to my hands and wrists. I really don’t understand how anyone rides a Woodchipper or a Cowchipper.
Archer Sully Visit whatbars.com and compare the geometry of various handlebars!
This pretty much mirrors my experiences. Bar width has a lot to do with the rider and the bike. I ride a 42cm bar on my gravel bike entirely due to comfort with zero regard to aero dynamics. On my trail bike a 780mm bar feels great while on my hardtail anything wider than a 740 is quite uncomfortable.
Great video, picked up some great tips. Since you are on handlebars, what about bend bars vs straight bars. I have a touring bike on order that I am converting from drop to straight or bend or Jones bar and I see angles from straight to 22, 34, 45 degrees.
Wish I’d seen this before I built my gravel/touring bike. I’d have gone 10-20mm shorter stem than my road bike. Having said that, I’m not experiencing any discomfort and I’m using it for 4+ hours rides
It’s under emphasised with narrower bars that steering tends to become quite nervous. Unless one is racing for aero gains this does impact on riding enjoyment and safety.
Wider bars with in turning hoods are an excellent compromise for gravel.
As always it’s a trade off.
I know this video is 2 year old. But, I was riding an arm and leg crank recumbent, (that I built myself) for many years in Eugene, and rode it twice in the Willamette Flyway Century. It was my opinion that although my average speed was a little slower it was far more comfortable than my Trek touring road bike. Now I wonder if Kevin has done any studies on the dynamics of riding a recumbent bike where your arms are actively assisting with forward motion. I felt really great after finishing on those two centuries The bike was heavy but was able to maintain a 16 mph average while moving on the flat. Has sling webbing seat and upper crank handles splayed out at about 30 degrees from vertical, 170 mm lengths on all cranks. I'm not sure if there's an optimum riding position for arm crank lengths, as I figure that my arms provide less power they are much more flexible than legs. but I'm not the expert here.
Great info 👍🏼
What about stet up for a Touring or cruising handle bares? I wont to change my mountain bike to a cruising bike. how dose the width effect the body.
I use to have the Salsa Moto Ace Bell Lap bars 42cm on my Surly LHT gone to Raceface XC ride flat bars now buying Cyclo-Cross type Handlebar for my Surly LHT 2008
Nice! I have on my Intec F10 Randonneur some Deda Graven 100 drop bars with 12 degree of flair. We got some similar fitting ;)
Thanks, Russ, very helpful. It is so difficult to find healthcare practitioners who understand cycling, cyclists and bike fit. Damn near impossible where I am, to be honest, with the exception of the odd chiropractor. Good bike fitters can make a difference nonetheless. The right one is well worth the money. The challenge is finding one.
Chiropractors are not healthcare
I had a pair of short reach, 12 degree flare bars and couldn't get more than an hour in before Major Pain showed up in my wrists. Switched to a 2cm narrower, 2 degree flare and never looked back.
Good that a discussion is happening regarding the popularity of wider drop bars. The marketing behind the product would have you believe that "wider is better." But how wide? And is wider for everyone? I have to laugh at some of these bars that have expanded in width beyond the 50cm range. I mean is that really a natural way to reach out for your hoods?
I agree 100% got nailed by viewers when I made a comment along that line in Russ' first video about ultra wide handlebars. Now the a PT explains the reasons (no need to be a PT by the way; common sense is enough), folks will likely refrain from commenting.
@@tve1964 What's interesting is this PT seems very open-minded to the many valid reasons some may still elect to use wider bars -- he's just noting that you should consider the possible impacts that you will have to account for (I left a top-level comment with a couple of my key takeaways, including "shortening your stem is the best first adjustment, *but won't solve everything*") and perhaps not follow the trend blindly. Of course, he also seems to nerd out on the biomechanics of it all, and the trend could bring him more business -- I don't think he goes so far as to say he wouldn't recommend going wider from an ergonomic perspective, but even if if this was his stance, he's going to be happy to help any one who chooses to anyway find a balance between ergonomics and other considerations.
Been after wide drop bars to put on my fat bike as ur already on wide bars, but I prefer bar ends or drop bars
Scratching your arm is a great analogy.
Much more control having these wide bars in crosswind gusts, especially on tarmac. I stuck wide bars on my road racer because I live in a 80 percent windy area, huge difference it makes, I can go out now in days that used to avoid because of the wind strength.
Great video 👍
This is a great interview, and I love the concept of bike fitting being more appropriate for someone in the "body business" rather than the "bike business." A lot of great insights here.
A couple takeaways that I am drawing from this: *The traditional "about shoulder width or slightly wider" rule of thumb should not be dismissed as only an "aero roadie" consideration* -- there is actual ergonomic reasoning behind this, including the wrist positioning things that Kevin mentioned, among others. That's not to say there aren't valid reasons to go wider (increased leverage/control for off-road terrain, handlebar bag accommodation, etc.), but there are ergonomic trade-offs that are made that will have to be accounted for.
The other note is that *while a shorter stem is perhaps the best place to start when going wider, even if you achieve the same overall reach the change won't be ergonomically neutral.* I like his "push up position" analogy. Imagine your normal, comfortable riding position puts your back at a 30-degree forward lean -- you switch to wider bars with the same stem, and are now leaning forward 35-degrees. Then you shorten the stem to achieve your original 30-degree lean -- your reach is now back where it started, but now your forward lean is resting on a wider "push-up stance" and you'll rely more on your chest muscles. This impact is going to be less if your target riding position is more upright anyway, but it's still a consideration.
Lots of awesome insights here -- and important to keep in mind his notes about individual differences of the riders, and the ability to train your body/riding "form" to adapt. Russ: I would love to see more expert interviews -- the "panyer" one with the linguist a while back was great and quite different!
Wider, flared drop bars are a lot more popular lately, but they're not all that new. Salsa came out with the woodchipper ten years ago, and before that randonneuring bars were typically a little wider than racing drops and flared more.
What’s new is the width and the shallower drop. Don’t know of many bars that were 52cm or 66cm wide.
@@PathLessPedaledTV That's true. I don't recall seeing any drop bars wider than about 46cm at the hoods until quite recently. I've got long arms and wide shoulders for my height (6'1"), and even for me these wider drops feel awkward and slow handling.
Jeremy McGuire you have to shorten the stem like a mtb. That’s why you see use mtb bars with short stems.
@@PathLessPedaledTV Definitely a shorter stem helps, and a small increase in stack with a shim can help as well. I run a 46cm cowchipper with a 70mm stem on my gravel bike and it's comfortable in all hand positions. It originally came with a 100mm stem and road bars. Having multiple comfortable hand positions is great for reducing arm fatigue.
Is a bike fit a one off, or do you get a fit, then pop back after a week or two of riding for a tweak?
I've had three bike fits trying to get comfortable for longer rides. First was an ex pro, then a "certified" retul fitter and the last was a physical therapist. He knew the body dynamics and spent half the time on setting my cleats/pedal interface to align the ankles, knees and hips. Along the 4 hour fitting session he elaborated on the circumstances of causes and remedies of why the changes are made. He also explained the muscle and ligament changes that will happen, but won't be immediate and that I must not go past 60% effort in the first few weeks. I was also to go back after 2 months when muscles had adjusted for final tweaks to the fit. All part of the price.
My advice for bike fitting is as in this video to find a therapist who understands cycling dynamics on the body.
That was really useful. I did a very long ride (13 1/2 hours) yesterday and found some "interesting" problems however they aren't bike fit by the sound of it... good to know... My back and shoulders were fine after the ride and the other major issue should be solved with some better bids and appropriate application of butt butter! I do have some fun with my shoes but I think that is a foot swelling issue. I have another pair of wider shoes to trial and some looser socks.
If you’re having foot swelling issues, that can be a sign of heart problems. Unless you’re really certain, I would go and see your doctor and or a cardiologist
@@granthutton0 Thanks Grant - definitely not my heart, that is checked regularly and eating low carb-healthy fats, my heart is in better condition than ever... :) . Shoes WAY too narrow... Still working on it... need a VERY wide shoe... the extra wide Shimano's aren't quite there, the Giro's I was referring to in this post isn't even close.
Imagine drop bars with a built in ADJUSTABLE flat Bar. I've machined this bar and it's amazing. (There is 2 designs.)
Going public soon.
Keep us posted please!
@@josephfarrugia2350 I will
Dude, i've been dreaming about this design forever! Get on it!
I'm putting bolt on drop extensions inside the grips of mtb flats
I am skeptical that I would find a bike fitter of this caliber and mentality near me. At least what I see on their sites they are very concerned about racing aspects and power production instead of pains and discomfort :-/ Oh well, maybe I can give someone a try. Bike fitting costs around 200 EUR also around here, so it definitely is not a cheap service.
I hope Kevin and his colleagues are OK...
I just smashed the Mawson Trail on 42cm bars. Aero matters when the wind comes in strong!
When your lucky and have wide shoulders. I fit perfectly with gravel bars
So.... WIDE BARS FINALLY ALLOW UPPER BODY ACTIVATION FOR CYCLISTS...
Maths. Emphasis on the S!
Take your British nonsense somewhere else.
@@austinshoupe3003 "Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries!"
Sounds like he’s referring the Alexander technique .
totally true. a great video russ. the body is not able to adjust to fashion. i guess when they invented brakes, bars and shifters in the old times they invented ridable stuff. if you put that on a toooo wide bar which simply does not fit on any persons skeleton its not ergonomic. and beeing comfortable with such a bar putting it very high, its completely different to everything thats planned how the most bikes look on the market right now. most bikes let you sit a little bit sporty. flexibility OK, but should a body adapt to a bike or a bike to the body?
So basically, I did not hear him say anything about wider bars being better in anyways (and he rides a 42cm for gravel (he does not look like a short guy). Just a very long list of things that get worse as the bars get wider. But still, people seem to be convincing themselves it is better because they have first convinced themselves it is cool and are trying to justify backward from this opinion... I put wide (46cm) seriously flared handlebars on a bike for a customer project, and even though I really thought they were cool I hated them when trying that bike and got hand pain and numbness and wrists pain very quickly,. The only thing I noticed is that he did think that a small amount of flare is helpful. So basically, what I get is that the randonneur bars of the 1950's (like Nitto Randonneurs, which are the modern version of those) are just about perfect. As far as I am concerned, at 176cm tall and thin built, I moved from 40 up to 42 back to 40 and now down to 38 over 40+ years of riding and every time I had two different widths on different bikes I tended to prefer the narrower and trended towards that over the years.
julmeissonnier I think that whole ‘people convincing themselves’ thing sums up most of the bike community. Just use what works.
Amen to that! That's exactly what I believe and you expressed it much better than I did and can. Thanks!! I got nailed for expressing that (not as well) in a comment about the first video on ultra wide handlebars.
@@tve1964 I was commuting in bike shoes for a little while because switching pedals was less convinient than changing shoes. While putting on my shoes to go home, a someone started talking to me about biking and how great bike shoes are yadda yadda. I told her they really didn't make a difference for me for road cycling, but they look better with the kit, so I keep using them and she got all offended and left. A student of mine was sitting near by and asked and I got real snarky about the cycling community being all inclusive until you disagree with their equipment choices and then they get all bent up over it. To which the student asked "like you are now?" ... We're all nuts.
@julmeissonnier yeah, I thought the fact that he rides a 42 for gravel was definitely an interesting reveal toward the end (though he admits he hasn't really tried much wider). I think a lot of what you are saying in on-point. However, I do think it's true that wider bars can provide better control over very rough terrain (this is why MTB bars are so wide), even if this comes at an ergonomic cost. So it depends on the rider and the type of riding they'll be doing on a given bike. I think he doesn't make a super strong recommendation one way or another, because there could be non-ergonomic reasons to go wider, and so he's sharing how to mitigate the ergonomic trade-offs if you choose to do so. A great reason to not blindly follow the trend, though.
I do think a slight flare makes a ton of sense, as it seems to be a natural wrist position -- if hang your arms loosely at your side, don't they tend to pronate slightly in toward the thumbs? I've been wanting to get some of the Nitto Randonneurs myself (not sure whether model 132 or 135), but technically I think these have a different type of flare -- the drops get wider from the top to bottom, but not from fore to aft.
@@chrislukes9037 I think you missed the point. just use what works. No need to try to sell it to anyone.
this just a way for hipsters to out hipster the other hipsters. the whole flared bar thing really is kind of a joke
need timecodes
Bike fitter says get a bike fit. 🙄
Wow. What an astute observation. 🙄
It would have been more effective and easier to follow if you had some graphic to show on a split screen while the PT was talking about bicycle geometry and body angles etc. I’d like to have more than an interview with a talking head. Tell me and I’ll forget much more quickly than if you show me.
Sound is terrible. Stopped listening. Sorry Russ.
yep. that cross-eyed bike fit douche should have went out and bought better sound equipment, so his already great information would have made you happier. gtfo