Stuart Hammerof - Quantum Physics of Consciousness
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- čas přidán 3. 04. 2021
- Are quantum events required for consciousness in a very special sense, far beyond in the general sense that quantum events are part of all physical systems? What would it take for quantum events, on such a micro-scale, to be relevant for brain function, which operates at the much higher level of neurons and brain circuits? What would it mean?
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Stuart Hameroff, MD, is a physician and researcher at the University Medical Center at the University of Arizona.
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Closer to Truth presents the world’s greatest thinkers exploring humanity’s deepest questions. Discover fundamental issues of existence. Engage new and diverse ways of thinking. Appreciate intense debates. Share your own opinions. Seek your own answers.
Please, more with Stuart Hammerof and Roger Penrose!
This!!!
I agree!
Everything Penrose does from now on NEEDS to be recorded for posterity
its absolutely fascinating
I’m glad Bill Goldberg has decided to change his passion from wrestling to neuroscience.
The Stone Cold Steve Austen jokes NEVER get old. Because of retrocausaulity.
This guy speaks faster than what I can think and follow.
I think maybe it's cuz he has a lot to say, he feel it's important and, he wants to take advantage of what he sees as a rare opportunity: all the more reason to try to work past the difficulty.
Plus the information he's spouting. I didn't follow alot of it.
Yeah... his are "Made in Japan"... "his brain IBM... "... "he is the 'Modren' man'... ;-)
you are quite right because he has not secured his body.
Play the video at 0.5x speed.
More Stuart but please find him a pressure valve so that he can slow down and give some examples lay folks can understand. He is awesome and is way beyond his time.
I find Hammerof really fascinating! I had to go back and listen to a couple sentences over again but I think he’s on to something with Penrose. Quantum biology and quantum systems in nature is where it’s at and how those systems including us integrate with the universe around us.
May I offer a suggestion. If you click on youtube options, the 3 dots in the upper right corner of the screen, you have the play back speed settings.
If you click . 75 Hammeroffs speech is at a normal rate.
he has to speak that fast before he gets interrupted or incorrectly corrected
@@1adamgriffin1 right tho 😆
Whilst meditating I was reminded that there is a core part of each of us that is truly immortal. We inherit dna that we pass on. We accommodate it's being, imprint upon it and pass it on (co-mingled) to the next generation. There is, therefore, a direct, unbroken link back to source. .
Fractals bro. It’s all fractal
@@Pat_11131 Only where it needs to be to fill in the cardinal parameters of the expanding uber matrix!. 😉
I think ssimilarly. Explains a lot. Quantum entanglement, non-locality etc means connections go way back and in our DNA I expect. I think ORCH OR is in functioning of DNA also. Much more wonderful views of this amazing Universe to come.
On a larger scale that is also something called our Collective Consciousness.
" I read The emperor's new mind when i was sitting in a jail cell when I was 18 years old i'm currently 46.. i doubt i could of finished it had i not been... So predisposed to alot of free (pardon the pun) time on my hands.. Being a Gen x'er I was one of the first generations with real access to computers, and found the book to be fascinating. I knew about Allen Touring decades before he become Vogue.. .. later in life i started really taking some intertest in physics , Cosmology, and hard sciences.. So doesn't take long to learn of Roger Penrose .. it wasn't till Roger Penrose went on joe Rogan that i realized at 18 years old sitting in a jail cell i had some how gotten ahold of the a rather ground breaking book by one of the greatest mines ever.. .. microtubules are very strange apparatuses indeed.. and if you look in to anesthesiology and Micro Tubulars it's easy to conjecture and or hypothesis about them being responsible for consciousness.. ... But there's a difference between having a connection to consciences .. being able to effect consciences .. and being responible for the rise of consciousness.. .. I think i'm Squarely with Kuhn on this one. There are two very deep minds that i have been paying attention to as of late Penrose and Iain McGilchrist. They both firmly state that there is something irrational about the way our minds work . Which is probable why Agi is impossible or a lot further off then we think .. at least in it's pure none organic consciences form.. I believe our universe .. is nested inside a transcendent universe .. A transcendent universe that some how is not limited to Determistic characteristic's as our universe seam's to be accept and rather unexplainable at quantum levels. Logic has yet to come up with a purely random number ... Logic algorithm's and the laws that dominate this universe make such non biological mechanism impossible .. as of yet .. .. but what if the demission's of space that we only know of theoretically .. are really the unavoidable conclusions of the trasnsdental universe.. and i these demission's or in the bigger universe free will is possible .. and are brains are not antanees receiving signals but simply physic's bubbles or gateways that allow the physics of that bigger universe to be accessed.. (none determinism..) and that is why we experience free will in it's beautiful entirety .. .. the best example i can give is .. when you set the clock and date on your new computer .. if it's not hooked to the internet .. you would have to do it manually .. .. ok .., if that was the only information you were getting from the bigger net work... none of the software or hardware .. running on the computer would know or care were the current date were coming from . now lets say this computer was a laptop .. and out and about on the town .. and ran into another laptop that wasn't connected to the internet and had some strange date and time based on the last time it was plugged in .. awkward!! .. ..which is the better time or the right time .. One that reset to 01/01/01 12:00 am or .. the laptop doesn't know or care.. or the one that connected to the internet (transcendent universe) Both laptop operate on the same principles same planform (windows 10) but one has access to a universe that has laws that dictate a certain time continuum which seems un important .. intell other laptops become hooked into the same transcendent universe ..with having to be aware of it the laptop that have this connection ..operate better together then laptops that don't.. basically the brain amongst other things is simply a new version of a network machine that has access to knowledge or hardware set ups that our older versions ... chimpanzees can't quite access as well or as often or us much of the bandwidth that we can .. we exist here in this universe (were not Brains in jars) .. our id, our ego . thats saved and stored and computed mostly right on the flesh ram/hardrive ..we simple have access to other physics networks that allow us to choose .. a direction instead of being destined to turn right since the beginning of time. "DMT" .. is like a temporary optical fiber connection ..vs satellite connection.. Material .. might not be a thing there because the randomness of it all keeps it from forming .. but probability dictates that Boltzmann brains of some sorts probable exist even in the bigger universe who knows ..i'm just a boy who got introubled alot and was condemned, for reason he does not know, to this prison system simulation.. If Alex jones was sane i'd be him .. if Alex jones is sane .. i'm crazy as fuck ! .. dot to dot to dot hey look i can see the universe from here!
What a thought provoking comment - just as good as the video.
😎
Great comment I’d like to discuss more on this with u....
You piqued my interest with your network analogy there. I’ve had similar thoughts and wondered recently about “gifted” people who may possess abilities allowing them access to a network of collective consciousness.
@@benv5243 First thanks for the engagement... Now My perspective is not one of collectives, but that doesn't mean i couldn't be correct to a degree and then wrong on the individual level. We maybe as Alan Watt's puts forth all part of the same universal being experiencing itself ..Some times i play Mario in Mario brothers, some times I play paladin in world of war craft, or a spacecraft pilot destroying asteroids.. Depending on which aviator in which game.. I'm still the same entity .. But in this case the entity is playing all characters at the same time .. .. What I'm trying to put forth is a configuration that is from a separate reality or bigger universe.. . for lack of a better metaphor lets say it's DNA. were did it originate from how do organics develop. Is it Literal a random lightning strike in the right pool of goo, or was it a space traveling virus or bacterial that got seeded and formed into orgonic matter? If so were did the bacterial form or virus form and under what conditions. In order for us to have free will, in my theory, some thing had to pop the hatch on our Deterministic universe so to speak and sprinkle in some spices or even actual material so that organic's could thus propagate.. thus brains could develop.. So that i can rest assured that this life is not pointless and we do have a actual moment to moment effect on this reality that couldn't normally exist.. free will
This may the single most important youtube video ever posted, I really hope Stuart and Robert know that!
Anyone else notice Bigfoot at 3:05?
Bigfoot or another scientific alumnae going to buy an hamburger????
Nice!
OMG it wasn't just me!!!
I have a feeling awareness is fundamental, and it finds its way into our brain through quantum effects where it becomes individual consciousness and meets the augmented reality assembled in the brain through our senses. Reality is an endless amount of vibrations and the brain assigns specific values to certain frequencies and we get the augmented colour red for example, some frequencies don’t get assigned a value and we don’t experience that part of reality, there’s tons of frequencies, functions and dimensions we are completely unaware of. We’re basically avatars with awareness downloaded into the arena of reality for a limited amount of time.
According to NDE'ers, we continue still yet. That is somethimg Hammerof mention from time to time could be a possibility.
Here is the Most COHERENT proof that Consciousness is not generated by the brain ➡️czcams.com/video/w_LSA__VSVE/video.html
That makes no sense. Awareness is fundamental of what? Itself or otherness? There would need to be a discreteness to be aware of something else and of self.
Just Great. The vibration people are here.
@@notmyrealpseudonym6702 She means awareness precedes all phenomenal experience. The idea that consciousness is primordial is an ancient one, and is called by many names all over the world - Brahman, the Buddhamind, Godhead, the Great Nothing (Allah), I Am that I Am etc. These are religious terms, of course, but they are describing a universal human subjective experience.
Whether you believe in the reality of this is another matter. Hameroff says the idea is intriguing but it can't be tested so it is unscientific. The idea that consciousness is nonlocal, however, _can_ be tested and Hameroff and others have suggested experiments to do this.
Stuart is the best. What a hero.
I really, REALLY tried to follow. Really, I did.
I think in this one the problems were 1. The expert talking way over us laymans' heads, and 2. The confusing, over-lapping questions put to the expert. Definitely a subject I'd like to learn more about.
@@tonyd3433 yeah, that's EXACTLY it. Sounded EXTREMELY interesting, if I could only follow every technical term.
Thanks so much, I love this.
What's always patterned is how physical particles and fields with very short "event horizons" or "times" with things being very non-descript at that level build into distinguishable molecules, viruses, cells and eventually organisms. How biology becomes deterministic.
Consciousness is the "felt eventfulness" in our brains which actually builds from "being ness" in the lower reticular levels in organisms.
Interesting , thanks prof. Hameroff for sharing your ideas with us. Thanks you are a great educator .
He talks about what happens when the physical reality splits into several different realities (superpositions). The physical system (us) chooses, one of these realities, through an independent agent, - the wavelength collapses and we get the causal closure of the approximate description. This free-produced motion in physics produces all the information that, for example, biology consists of, and precisely this motion is what Hammerof describes as subjectivity; the system can choose the reality that the system finds best for the system, whereas the brain would have chosen the reality that had the greatest value, in relation to the brain's calculations. Free choice is thus an evolutionary device that increases especially the spread, but also the amount of information that evolution produces; an evolution that is not about biology, but the evolution of information, as described by physics.
This is beautifully described by Carlo Rovelli. (Understanding consciousness within the known laws of physics : Carlo Rovelli).
Hello and good Day to all of you. I will watch the show now and sure it's seem great. Philippe
Subtitles are needed here for this fascinating subject.
Stuart is like one-half brilliant scientist, one-half infomercial salesperson
Scientific work competes for attention and dollars. If you don't pay attention to the sales side, you are done.
@@Mark-no2du Such a sad state of affairs. "If people with money don't get it, you won't get money".
Penrose is the other half
This is fascinating. It is the first video I've seen that attempts to discuss the mechanics of how consciousness occurs and that it relates to the wave function collapse. I have often wondered if they were joined somehow.
Interesting and worthwhile video. The speculative mechanism would be far more complicated than indicated in this brief talk.
it must be
As best I recall from an article I read several decades ago: in scale and number, microtubules are to cells what cells are to our bodies. Each neuron contains hundreds of millions (or perhaps billions) of microtubules. They form the structures of the cells and they perform the extra-nucleic processes like cell division.
Each of these many microtubules has a cage like structure within it, which traps an electron in an un-collapsed state. This is how the "wet and noisy" brain is able to have quantum activity within its structure.
@@con.troller4183 Those are interesting papers and are available online. Years ago I downloaded them from Stuart Hammeroff's website. Thank you for your comment.
Fantastic, I, as a retired med. Dr. & having a Magister in Philosophy was always interested in the question of consciousness came to the same result that consciousness was related to the collapse of the wave function. Thanks for confirming my assumption. Med. Rat Mag. Dr. Issam Elias from Austria ❤️🇦🇹
Well for 34 years I had no consciousness because I saw life in this manner as a 14 year old. 1. Why do I need information if I can do mathematics and solve problems from scratch? 2. Adults are like children who play with other things. 3 I will be fine as I can do mathematics and play football. I can outdo the children who play better football than me because I can do better mathematics than them, and I can outdo the children who do better mathematics than me because I can play football better than them. As a consequence I did not become conscious at the age of 14 as all human beings do. I am the only exception in the whole history of humanity. No collapse of wave functions.
@@jesusbermudez6775 wtf
@@arandomguyontheinternet756 The observation "adults are like children led to the emotion of compassion feeding on me and so I was not conscious. Instead the emotion had control of my senses and of my whole body. The emotion meant that for 34 years I was helping people without knowing I was helping people. So for 34 years I was not conscious. Btw I was a university lecturer; I graduated from University College London with a First Class Honours degree in Statistics and Computer Science; I wrote a program in C that sold over 1,000 copies, and I did all that and was not conscious. It has taken me 15 years to become fully conscious.
@@jesusbermudez6775 so how did u become conscious? It seems like I may not yet b 😕
@@defenestratedalien1448 Well, if you have read my post and replied to it you are conscious.
Fascinating!
I have to say that I understood this explanation much more than when Penrose was describes the theory.
Stuart Hammerof is quite the hero to me. One day his work will be fully acknowledged, when matter only science lets go of its clockwork/billiard ball view of the Universe. Quantum science is the next spring board to great discoveries, already happening. Orch OR has not been proven wrong yet. The "wet-warm" objection has been dealt with. Stuart (and Prof. Penrose) knows his stuff. Wish the interviewer would let him speak more instead of interrupting so much.
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you... then you win.
Gosh, first time seeing Robert like this, open your mind, you don't have to sound THAT skeptical about an idea, especially an amazing idea like this one that explains consciousness.
I don't think he was too sceptical. Ideas radical as this one must approached with caution. His questions were very precise and it seemed that Hammerof was all over the place, but he managed to get the concise answer from him in the end. It is very important to get an answer to the question of the magnitude of neurons involved and the way the consciousness emerge. For example, if it was 20,000 neurons it would be as if jellyfish could have it, and thats pretty radical. Also, if the very phenomena of collapsing is the consc. or produces c. as a product of microtubular orchestration.
The theory is a great leap forward in thinking about this hard problem and I look forward for some more quantuum biology. :))
@hajor if u watch enough of his material (ism) its clear he is biased, sometimes he pretends to let his Laurence side believe in a higher force but his Kuhn side reverts to type.
@@bannerman3553 we're all biased so..
Think it hard to explain in layman’s terms because this is not a layman’s subject. I’d have to delve into the theory more of why he feels microtubules have a relationship with consciousness. I’m afraid at the end of the day we are not going to be able to define consciousness in a tangible way. Props to Hammerof. You can tell he’s very passionate about the subject.
Good conversation
Just one question for Stuart (I've watched several of his and Penrose's videos and would have read The Emperor's New Mind too but I doubt I'll get it plus it was written before Stuart's contributions to the field so is probably incomplete):
- Whose consciousness is it? Every body-part has those structures (microtubules or whatever) that he described but I don't think I can care less about what my liver feels, for instance. And if so, does it mean every body-part is autonomous (has its own consciousness) and that MY consciousness resides in the brain?
Does MY consciousness (my sense of being) comprise of all the microtubules in my body, or is it limited to a select few neurons in the brain?
- If MY "subjective sense of being" resides in the brain, are you (Stuart) optimistic about Sergio Canavero's brain (or head) transplants? Would they preserve the patient's consciousness in the process or would they alter it somehow (in which case there would be no way for us to verify so)?
I'd love to get biologically immortal (and also preserve/continue the same conscious experience that I have); you (Stuart Hammerof) are my only hope!
Love...
-- Your fan.
Cool questions...never hear of brain transplants before...ewwwwwwwww🤣
@@mongoharry I watched Sergio Canavero's latest interview a month ago; he said they've moved way past head transplants all the way to literal brain transplants! Not just that, he said something like they can now revive cadaver up to a day after death. He also said that in the future, people will be able to willingly have NDEs (Near Death Experiences) and see for themselves whatever lies beyond... According to him and a few other neuroscientists, the brain only "filters" consciousness but does not generate it; I believe him. Perhaps even Swedenborg was an honest man.
@@theaman1786 Revive a cadaver a day after death? Aren't there chemical processes/ breakdown that would prohibit that? You've probably heard that chemicals released by the brain seconds after death may have hallucinogenic properties which may be responsible for the groovy experiences people report ✨✨✨✨But once this breakdown occurs and the chemicals are released, I doubt there's any turning back...The damage would be severe.
@@theaman1786 Some of these 'Closer to Truth' episodes look into the fundamental nature of consciousness. To be honest, they're a little too technical for me, having never learned physics. I have a little work to do, Bro🖤😎✌️
@@mongoharry I think I heard somewhere that some 2 percentish of all NDE experiences are out-of-body Near-Death Experiences, meaning the person sees things they shouldn't have been able to, like a poker card placed in the operation room but out of view of the patient getting the heart surgery ('cause those have very high NDE reports, if I remember correctly). This can't be explained by a chemical breakdown in the brain due to blood loss or whatever. These ones are one of the biggest conclusive proof in favor of a sort of eternal quantum consciousness; remote viewing (RV) being another one of those effects that can't be explained otherwise.
On reviving the cadaver up to a day after death, he said something like he's published a scientific book for the medical community detailing all their recent advancements and achievements. Probably would be too technical for me, so never bothered to check it. Technically they should then be able to reverse a stroke too... Anyway, I'll drop the link to that video,
czcams.com/video/DCZOliWcC1k/video.html
[Sorry, he said up to six to twelve hours after death, not 24.]
czcams.com/video/YrwAiU2g5RU/video.html
[On remote viewing.]
Thank you for pressing Hammerof on where exactly consciousness takes place. I think he may be on to something but right now it all seems a little vague (admittedly I am not a professional physicist or neuroscientist, so…).
Process of elimination in science. He know how to create unconsciousness.
A very bold claim, hope to see more of this
Frankly, it is less bold than most others...
Not that bold really
I wish Stuart could create better explantitory metaphors for his theories. He loads his exposition up with too much detail for his audience. What he's saying is potentially utterly incredible, if he's right, and it deserves an audience wider than those who can grasp the various intersections of biology and quantum mechanics.
They missed a critical bit explaining how microtubules contain electrons trapped in an un-collapsed state. If I hadn't read an article on this a long time ago, I would not have understood anything he said.
Well said. Feel same
I've been reading some Carl Jung lately and couldn't help drawing parallels between Hammerof/Penrose's discussion of consciousness being more than computation and algorithms, but necessarily involving the collapse of the wave function, or quantum events. Quantum events are necessary for a moment of subjectivity which is also mentioned by Jung in his discussion on introverted thinking (as opposed to extraverted thinking). Whereas extraverted thinking analyzes and organizes oberservable, objective data from the external world (computations and algorithms), introverted thinking is concerned with analysis based on internal experience, including thoughts, feelings, perceptions, interpretations, personal meaning, and while logically rooted, yet still inherently subjective.
With a flow-based gravity that is encouraged by low-energy bindings within low-energy loose conglomerates of molecules, a simple one that may naturally focus at ultra-cold temperatures on baryonic nearest neighbors, you have a quasi-cyclic passage out of any universal heat-death situation, and a fine explanation of dark matter filaments, not to mention a fine visualization for noisy entanglement links needing no locally-oppressive wormhole. The popular option is to depress everyone else with general relativity.
With a natural focus in gravitational information flow on the baryonic level one has a natural basis for spine-like structures of retroreflective energy conservation and consequently a natural basis for quantized Hebbian-type energy partitioning processes.
Quantum effects manifest as wave dynamics; in this case, electrotonic wave dynamics. Consider myelination and electrotonic impedance of branchlets by population with stationary (by fixation or inertia) polar molecules as computational control mechanisms and, neuronal firing as the driving of a projection of stored relevant items, like a lightbulb in a projector.
Robert did a great job in bringing the discussion spotlight to the most needed parts. Thanks a lot Robert especially for driving it to the level of "the collapse is consciousness part.".
The growing evidence on consciousness within quantum mechanics, while nascent, is suggesting that it may be a fundamental property of the universe and exists independent of the body - which acts as a vehicle for consciousness through classical physical mechanisms at the neuronal level. Although in the embryonic stage, the conclusion that consciousness persists postmortem is becoming less outlandish and more plausible.
Before the collapse / decoherence of quantum probability wave, information could be integrated with time for consciousness? The emotion and thought from consciousness then measure probability wave (collapse / decoherence) information back into neuron signal(s) in brain?
I respect (and agree with) Hamerof's theory about the Near Death Experience and consciousness..he says at the point of death consciousness expands and is released into the universe with quantum entanglement keeping our awareness intact. This seems to explain the NDE or OBE whereby there appears to be a separation of consciousness at the point of death. There is certainly no evidence brain produces consciousness. I think he is correct about the microtubules acting as quantum computers allowing consciousness into the brain.
I agree and speculate that the biological limitations while embodied also give rise to the unique sense of separation, fundamental to the formation of "conscious self". This awareness is honed during a lifetime and remains intact as a dynamic energy-matrix (identity) post-mortem, it can expand and merge back into the sea of consciousness from which it originated but it's entangled configuration is never lost.
@@taja1976 cleverly put :)
Accepting that information update by its own experience because this intellect is vulnerable by the state of conterminous environment which makes the information ,it will insist you to believe that thought process is governed but it could be an activity of acceptance that you really start to feel that way if it's really dependent on activity , intellect can be valuable by the environment
Seems natural coherence compiles energy/reactions (in the quantum mechanic world) and sums (quorums) to a threshold as brought about through evolution (over time) of lattice polymers which emits or provides for states of reactions (the 10kHz calculation & wave function etc) we describe as consciousness which is embedded-expressed in our genomic/epigenomics i.e., which we crudely call integrated reality through consciousness. There appears to be naturally many types of consciousness, for example the Gaia Hypothesis: That the earth is a conscience organism? Interesting.
Very deep topic
Thank you Robert and Stuart, love it!
The brain must have a deeper - and extensively larger - level than the quite simple neural network. So I think they are on the right track here.
Here is the Most COHERENT proof that Consciousness is not generated by the brain ➡️czcams.com/video/w_LSA__VSVE/video.html
Quite simple neural network!?!?!?!
God damn ! I havent been able to wrap my head around the millions of complex neural networks in our brains...
SIMPLE ...😭
What Hammerof is positing in terms of the expression of consciousness in integration and coherence across multiple neurons is parallel, conceptually, to the idea that what we see macroscopically as a solid surface is IN FACT merely a superposition of fields. What we perceive as a single homogeneous consciousness is in fact the 'field effect' of vast numbers of semi coherent quantum states (coherent within their sets, which likely vary themselves over time)?
Exactly the right Questions. Thank you. Because pushing the problem into the realm of Quantum answers nothing. The hard Problem remains entirely.
A sour Philosopher trying to keep his paycheck?
It's not what you think, but HOW you think (said Orwell). Why do you HAVE TO have answers? You know full well that Quantum mechanics has an indeterminacy principle (Shrodinger's equation). If the so called "problem" is indeed manifest on the Quantum level, one cannot object to the truth of that just because it does not satisfy one's curiosity. I think as human beings we are far too insecure about 'not knowing" things. Why do we have to know everything? And on what level do we really know anything anyway? As I said - I think we should be comfortable with not knowing things - but take refuge in the comfort of knowing HOW to think, not WHAT to think.
@@Pensivata Well the same thing was said about some mysteries of the universe long time ago ! ..
"Why do we need to know things!?!?"
Here we are slowly solving each one of those mysteries...
That's what science does ... and that's why we are here trying to understand our existance.
MD and neuroscience grad student from prior to Med school here. I’ve been following the work of Dr Hameroff as well as of Dr Penrose for sometime now. I’ll honestly want to pursue this idea as a professional aspiration down the line but for now, my goodness. This theory makes too much sense when examining how van der waal induced nonpolar binding of microtubules occurs at the level of tubulin.
Very interesting that explanation, to the detail. He and Penrose are at the vanguard of understanding Consciousness.
Hammerof seems to have skipped a key part of his hypothesis (or it was edited out.
As best I recall from an article I read several decades ago: in scale and number, microtubules are to cells what cells are to our bodies. Each neuron contains hundreds of millions (or perhaps billions) of microtubules. They form the structures of the cells and they perform the extra-nucleic processes like cell division.
Each of these many microtubules has a cage like structure within it, which traps an electron in an un-collapsed state. This is how the "wet and noisy" brain is able to have quantum activity within its structure.
That was how I understood it.
When quantum wave function collapse or separate from energy particle, there is an observation which may have to do with consciousness / awareness.
Fundamental assumption underlying your conversation and analyses, gentlemen -- you are presupposing that: "consciousness" is resident in, is attached to, and is created from the bio-energetic systems in the brain.
Would seem like a logical assumption...under the assumption of "locality" (see Einstein's problem with "spooky action at a distance").
I suggest...
First: drop "consciousness" as the identified phenomenon (with all it's attachments to thoughts, feelings, concepts, and identity), and use "awareness - pure, pre-thought, pre-conceptual.
Second: until the assumption I mentioned above is proven, drop it.
As Hameroff is an anesthesiologist, his dayjob is to make consciousness go away and make it come back.
Very interesting but difficult to believe!
Consciousness is of course, in a more primitive form, also present in animals. Microtubules are present everywhere and densely arranged in neural cells. They play such important roles for example in cellular trafficking that I have serious problems to believe that such polymers can also be involved in such a delicat something like quantum phenomena while at the same moment able to give rise to consciousness. Moreover, microtubules are very actively interacting with an enormous amount of other proteins making them very unlikely as an ideal cellular platform to perform accurate quantum processing.
The best part got left out...
As best I recall from an article I read several decades ago: in scale and number, microtubules are to cells what cells are to our bodies. Each neuron contains hundreds of millions (or perhaps billions) of microtubules. They form the structures of the cells and they perform the extra-nucleic processes like cell division.
Each of these many microtubules has a cage like structure within it, which traps an electron in an un-collapsed state. This is how the "wet and noisy" brain is able to have quantum activity within its structure.
Your indictment seems to beg the question and misunderstand objective reduction, consciousness is not only present in lesser animals but any instance of a wave function collapse is the inciting moment of experience.
@@virno69420 I agree!
@@gilbertengler9064 The microtubules I believe you are referring to that are involved in cellular structure and vesicle transport are considered "A" lattice microtubules, whereas the ones Stuart Hammerof and Sir Roger Penrose believe are involved consciousness are the "B" lattice microtubules. Hammerof seems, like quite a few intelligent people, to be really bad at explaining his ideas at a level the laity are able to understand. Sir Penrose is much more eloquent and I suggest watching some of his talks if you want a better idea of their hypothesis.
@@LarpingGecko3851 It's possible that he is tooo intelligent to explain what he means. I am not a specialist in the domain, but not really a laity I think! I will take a closer look to Penroses comments. You can give me some references. Many Thanks!
This is probably the most esoteric conversation I’ve ever heard on this channel
Reading up on his theory is the way. It's a tough read, still.
So... does he think there is a certain number of neurons and certain speed of movement... objective reduction, the “identity theory” ...makes god? Or is it the same thing? That god is just a function of consciousness bu this process. It’d be neat if someone stuck him in a shallow foxhole under an artillery barrage and then recorded his answer.... 🤔
As a lay person, there seems to be something to be said about the seemingly non computational nature of consciousness and the utter randomness of the quantum state. It's always easy to pick holes in other peoples' theories, but if the key to consciousness was "self evident", we would have found it by now. The fact that for a 100 years physicists can't agree on an explanation for the superposition and neurologists can't agree on an explanation for consciousness, make we wonder if these two mysteries aren't somehow related...
moreover, the 2 facts that
- qm effectrs are proven to be absolutely beneficial in information processing.
- qm effects to be found in basic life processes such as photosynthesis.
make it hard to immediately dismiss the idea that evolution has used qm in it's most complex info processor, the human brain.
Consciousness is a field that encompasses all reality. It's effect's change based on the forms of matter and energy. It's the driving force with only one prime directive, to achieve All possible states.
Does this say anything about how or if we make choices?
choices are based on a risk/reward calculation, per genetic coding, i.e., how our brain is wired for instant gratification. now we have to learn delayed gratification in order to succeed in a first world environment.
Could consciousness happen before collapse / measurement of quantum field / wave function in microtubule? Maybe consciousness when quantum field still coherent? Measurement of quantum field by microtubule sends mathematical information to neuron for energy spike / electrical signal?
As information integrates, there is greater order and lower entropy, which could cause the brain to become warmer. The brain is using energy from the nearby environment.
Actually the brain outputs high entropy radiation in the form infrared light. Living organisms use the high entropy of the sunlight to lower their entropy and give off high entropy radiation with which they increase the entropy of the environment more. The amount of energy that comes in and the amount that leaves is the same approx. The difference is in the entropy of the radiation. In a way life is a method to fulfill the 2nd law of thermodynamics FASTER!
@@zagyex True, but only assuming we don't find a way to capture and recycle the IR "emissions" does this remain true. You can think of the brain or body as a primitive heat engine, converting diffuse energy into kinetic activity (mechanical work) plus some margin of excreted waste energy which exerts a greater entropy than the initial reduction, as you stated. It's a tad simplistic, but conceptually helpful, if not entirely descriptively accurate.
But what about the integration that manifests externally as a result of our conscious cognitive processes, our ideations and designs and such? Might we not offset our biological entropy-cost by designing systems which integrate energy, information and activity in ways that produce less entropy output than the initial reduction?? Food for thought :)
Wow! How fast is this mans Microtubules and Synapses working?
If collapse / decoherence / measurement happens in microtubule, then quantum field / wave may be coherent before microtubule, where subjective consciousness might be in the probabilities of coherent quantum field / wave function?
This conversation is a good demonstration of how limiting a materialist paradigm can be.
Hammerof proposes a materialist basis for consciousness. What is limiting about that?
If its so limiting than come up with your woo woo theory that will revolutionize the healing crystal scene...
Vary interesting.
Is this a new interview? Or further material from the old interview?
an old interview, for sure.i am guessing 5-10 years old.
@@Dion_Mustard it’s driving me so nuts, there is ongoing research and nowhere can I find Hammeroff interviews on it since it’s started
"Touch is a resonant interval". MacLuhan......(waking state consciousness) is a resonant interval? "Hearing occurs when incoming stimuli from the ear exert phase control on background (neural chaos/superposition of possibilities?) brain activity". Sayers et al, 1975. Maybe consciousness occurs when stimuli from external and internal environment exert phase control on background brain activity (superposition of possibilities/microtubule dynamics)???
Probabilities of quantum field / wave function into the future may have subjective consciousness?
Life itself may have quantum physics involved. No one has come remotely close to creating a "living" cell in a test tube.
Here consciousness despairs of its own understanding
Is consciousness a spontaneous event,
a “one way street”, emerging solely out of itself
or does it need in addition some kind of reflection of itself in a counterpart ??
Isn’t it necessary to have some kind of “feedback” to recognize oneself as a conscious subject,
to reflect on / refer to / mirror in another subject / counterpart ??
A feedback loop (amplify / decrease) to prove the existence of the consciousness ??
Nobody will ever know for sure ..
Is there a way to deceive different subjects in relation to the observability of quantum decoherence or wave function collapse - let's say for example the double slit experiment - and have a different outcome?
You "are" closer to truth at last
I gather this as an attempt to explain the what and how of the topic. next there is the why.
personally speaking, I don't care why. no offense intended.
Fantastic interview - Dr Kuhn asks the best questions!
There is matter, life and there is consciousness. Our Universe equation may looks like consciousness = matter + life
This is an assumption without evidence to back it
Matter is only illussion, everything is combination of energy and consciousness.
Consciousness = energy.
@@themoon5602 you don't have evidence for God?
that's pretty stupid
WOW. Gimme more
I hope the guy that was hot mic'd was enjoying his newspaper haha
It's not often I can listen to someone for 10 full minutes and not understand anything they say. I have a lot of reading ahead of me.
Right right......right....right...right....right right right....summation at the neurons....right
We conscious selves are the users of the brain machine.
What about the human brain being 'too wet & too warm' problem? (which makes quantum effects impossible to my knowledge). He's never asked or Roger Penrose in the other video on this channel?
I understand every word in these sentences, and I understand the terminology. God help me.
Please simplify the message **(
You are non-local.
truth is not simple.
For over 20 years Russell Targ and SRI studied people who knew things about distant places they had never been to. That is obtaining information completely without use of the physical senses. The brain has no more to do with consciousness than a radio with no antennae had to do with music.
It's interesting to me. This 9 minute talk has generated more comments than all the hour-plus long Hameroff and Penrose talks on CZcams. As far as I can tell, every single objection made to OrchOR here is dealt with in the longer talks. Please check those out.
A statistical impossibility is defined as “a probability that is so low as to not be worthy of mentioning. Sometimes it is quoted as 1/10^50 although the cutoff is inherently arbitrary. Although not truly impossible the probability is low enough so as to not bear mention in a Rational, Reasonable argument." (*The probability of finding one particular atom out of all of the atoms in the universe has been estimated to be 1/10^80.) The probability of a functional 150 amino acid protein chain forming by chance is 1/10^164. It has been calculated that the probability of DNA forming by chance is 1/10^119,000. The probability of random chance protein-protein linkages in a cell is 1/10^79,000,000,000. Based on just these three cellular components, it would be far more Rational and Reasonable to conclude that the cell was not formed by undirected random natural processes. Note: Abiogenesis Hypothesis posits that undirected random natural processes, i.e. random chance formation, of molecules led to living organisms. Natural selection has no effect on individual atoms and molecules on the micro scale in a prebiotic environment. A "Miracle" is considered to be an event with a probability of occurrence of 1/10^6. Abiogenesis, RNA World Hypothesis, Multiverse all far, far, far exceed any "Miracle". Yet, these extremely irrational and unreasonable hypotheses are what some of the world’s top scientists ‘must’ believe in because of a prior commitment to a purely subjective materialistic ideology. (*For reference, peptides/proteins can vary in size from 3 amino acid chains to 34,000 amino acid chains. Some scientists consider 300-400 amino acid protein chains to be the average size. There are 42,000,000 protein molecules in just one (1) simple cell, each protein requiring precise assembly. There are approx. 30,000,000,000,000 cells in the human body.)
Consider this - A ball rolling over a hill, sans potential energy, a zero probability in classic mechanics. In quantum mechanics it occurs all the time, it's called quantum tunneling and it's essential to life.
Abiogenesis is a point on the quantum wave function of the primordial oceans. Given the number of quantum state changes fueled by gravity, geothermal and solar energy, plus billions of years, the occurrence of abiogenesis is not unreasonable.
Here’s something I dont understand. Do microtubules in the leg axons contribute to consciousness? If so, then paraplegics should be less conscious… But lets consider some more extreme cases - stroke, head injury, ALS, Downs syndrome, etc.. where a large percentage of neurons are lost or dysfunctional. Is consciousness “different” for such individuals? Functionally of course they are variously impaired, but no one has ever suggested they are “differently” conscious than a “normal” person. More signifcantly, brain activity is very different in different parts of the cortex and brain stem during different “conscious” activities. Shouldn’t consciousness be different? But it certainly doesn’t seem to be. So regardless of the number of neurons active (thousands or billions), or what the distribution is, or what the cognitie outcome is, it seems to make very little difference as to how one senses their own state of consciousness. And consider drug states, wherein one can definitely feel much different - whether on prozac or cannabis or LSD. How can that be explained? As Sherlock Holmes said, if you exclude all possible explanations except one, then that one must be the correct explanation - but Hameroff and Penrose are far from excluding all possible explanaitons,, they are just going deeper and deeper down the same rabbit hole.
Regarding drug effects I think Stuart had offered an explanation elsewhere based upon his experience as an anesthesiologist.
Gravity must follow photons, but gravitational information flows can cross a photon's path at right angles with no appreciable non-supportive effect except possibly being further impacted beyond any effect of any perpendicular light it inevitably would follow. As a first approximation I prefer here to analogize the passive aspect of consciousness to the cross-flow's minimal impact on collapse. I suppose the active aspect of consciousness can manipulate internal low-temperature elastic gravitational energy flows to simulate a more-complicated collapse occurring by other means, external to the mind.
I wasn't aware of this when I posted before, but there is a study suggesting memory streams are rotated to be orthogonal to the real-time sensory stream so to avoid the two essentially-passive streams interfering as memory is accessed. Seems possibly relevant.
By saying gravity must follow photons I mean I suppose there is presumed a mutual attraction between the two types of gravity field information carriers (gravity field vector quanta) as both may have net positive energy despite one type of field carrier having a core of negative energy. I suppose there are too many gravity quanta around to be limited to following along with photons, however, and for example with the conditions set up in some entanglement experiments and in "super-atom effect" vapor chambers, an ability to focus gravity information carriers tightly may create paths of accelerated information showing energy-rate fragmentation.
I’m not convinced that quantum mechanics is required to understand our macro world. Especially regarding Consciousness and biological processes.
well i am not convinced that brain matter produces consciousness.
Like photsynthesis?
Hameroff speaks so fast. It's kinds ironic that the last video uploaded was an interview with Lee Smolin who's maybe the slowest speaker on this channel.
Adjust the speed: top right corner > three dots > playback spped.
Cocaine is a hell of a drug.
Nice hard talk. It would be desirable to see R. L. Kuhn applying the same sharp questioning to physicalists as well.
Agreed, as his background in neuroscience will be able to pin them down, as here.
Yes!!! Quantum entanglement is happening simultaneously within the brain to create consciouness.
Why was what is this discussion on what is likely the most important thesis regarding the connection between consciousness and quantum physics reality only given 9 minutes?
Nobody ever seems to point out that this microtubule theory of consciousness would suggest that every cell in my body is, to some extent conscious. The idea seems absurd. I get the feeling that Hammerof, is looking for materialist explanation of ESP, and ghosts and magic. Rather than looking at a simpler level the consciousness happens at a higher order level, like the brain, etc.
Yeah. You need your brain and ting of you want consciousness.
@7:37 "Integrate - Fire, Integrate - Fire" - what force is causing the integration? Maybe that is consciousness...
Beat frequency.....hmmmm..allow me to refer you to the Monroe institute's hemi-sync technology as well as Tom Campbell's current experimentation..
So Hameroff must or at least could be wrong, right?
@@kuroryudairyu4567 merely suggesting a path of inquiry. The parallels are an Interesting coincidence at a minimum. Insufficient expertise on my behalf to suggest one way or the other. Although anyone can be wrong of course.
I feel like this guy is right
Maybe consciousness arises after a certain level of energy In one collective spot
Man that was heavy
So consciousness is occuring from quantum entanglement of the electrons which support neurons firing? In this case consciousness should be related to whole brain. because all neurons have this event inside. but there are some studies that says and shows that consciousness is related to brain stem. There are several experiments where people without any cortex show conscious behavior. There are so many open connections in the that is presented in this video. Maybe I misunderstood..
he said, about 10% of the neurons would be needed for a consicous moment
So, if consciousness is basically awareness, is he saying that our ability to be aware of our selves in our environment is an evolutionary accident? I think I understood it that way, if so, interesting
No. The OR is skewed toward what Penrose calls 'Platonic values" and what Hameroff says is "pleasure..."
Without an algorithm of quantum computing functions, we may never know the secrets of life, consciousness and divine design.
Actually Penrose states that consciousness is NOT a computation. This part of the OrchOR theory is the most convincing.
I can't believe how our brains could be quantum computers!