Optimizing the Pathfinder 2E Three Action System. How to get the MOST out of your character's turn!
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- čas přidán 31. 07. 2021
- Welcome to the Knight Life! Each week our gaming group will discuss an important topic related to tabletop roleplaying games.
In this week's episode of Knight Life we cover the Pathfinder 2nd Edition's famous "three action" economy. We discuss some of the common pitfalls for players new to the system (especially coming from 5th Edition D&D), as well as tips and tactics to get the most out of this unique innovation in the TTRPG space.
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A good rule of thumb is to not think of doing a "third-action"
Whatever that third action will be, do it first, before you move.
Demoralize first, Recall Knowledge first, do that stuff first.
The term "Bonus Action" has cursed our thinking for millennia. Be the man to break it.
This is an excellent point; even with my monsters I'll routinely move, attack... then Demoralize... d'oh!!!
There are things you CAN do as third action but I like this tip as it points out that you can also do something else BEFORE attacking
Something I learned recently that was glossed over here: you don't need cover to become hidden to your enemy! You can literally say "Behind you!" and Create a Diversion. It likely only works once per battle, but this is a low-cost way to make someone flatfooted to you, even if you attack from range!
absurd, but I love it
@@ohdigeydoc says the gnome who can literally look cute to make a hostile opponent do nothing for a turn :D
Yup. I've been using Create a Diversion a lot as an Alchemist Bomber as it's one of the only opportunities you'll get to make a ranged attack against a flat-footed opponent. You are no longer hidden once you make the attack, but hey, hopefully you land a good strike and the monster is slain!
Now part of the solution to the 3rd action problem lies with the GM. Giving players ways to interact with the environment during combat is a great way to help players fully utilize their whole turn.
I'll agree with that!
That is not entirely true.
While it is GM's job to pain the battle field it is also up to players to ask additional features.
The balance is to give enough information so players can draw ideas from that and ask creative questions.
Few examples:
"I take one of the bottles of whisky and throw it at my enemy and yell at our Wizard to se them on fire!" - Throw 20/60 if yo hit you do Str. mod. dmg and blast them with burnable alcohol.
"Can I take sand from the ground to try and blind the Troll?" - The ground is is gravel, you can try to hit.
"We are in Arena? Are there weapons or Traps?" - You find spikes on wall with four pillars full of spears as well one bit on the side. There are also used weapons all around.
"Are there trees or rocks to hide behind?" - Often asking this as Range dps or Spell caster allows you to hide behind cover for extra defense.
"Is there Chandelier at the ceiling? Can I use it as part of my movement to get on the highground?" - DM might say you must use one of your attack actions to cut the robe with Acrobatics check to land on balcony.
"Are there any heavy items I could throw down the stairs to slow them down?" - DM might say sure as long you use your action OR you might pick it up and throw it hoping to do some damage while at it.
"Is there cellar door at floor? I use action to open it!" - Now someone can use force movement to push someone down there to deal fall damage.
We had a player who within 10 sessions build a hat from rat's skull and implemented candle with continues flame on it to make headlamp and installed magnifying class and made it so when the rat's nose was down it was hidden and by lifting the nose as Free interaction he could lift or close it once a turn. It gave 20ft bright light and 20ft dim light. And was basically modern day headlamp 😂 All these were things he asked along the journey. Like who takes candles with them? He asked to interact and the book said the candles have continues flame on them 👍 and this took 10 sessions to great slowly and we named it "Legendary Ra-hat." (Money in Finnish is Rahat)
As a player we have duty to ask. You want to do something and thing the setting might have the needed items? Ask.
If you were to complain that the DM is bad because there are no interaction with environment I think it is part fault on you as well as Player.
Currently I invited three players who are great with improvising stuff and each one of us is also able to DM 👍 thus when DM says we are fighting at Store you often heard the questions if there is something and if not they do their normal action and think something new.
Robbing actions from monsters by moving away as mentioned in the video becomes increasingly important as you level up. Many monsters/adversaries have two action attack routines allowing multiple attacks that do not increase MAP until after the routine is done. Stun, slow, making them move greatly reduces their effectiveness.
Yes, and that's especially important when fighting monsters higher level than you for sure. It's one of those things that's inherent in the system; but not explicitly spelled out.... not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing :-/
Not to mention the critters that have rend or similar effects relying on them already hitting 2x with claws, or already having the target grabbed if they don't have improved grab.
I think it's implied but let's remember to use Intimidation at the beggining of your turn if you're going to attack of target your enemy with a spell or similar effect.
I think there are quite a few things that give you bonuses if you attack them THEN intimidate them though! I don't remember though, I have WAY TOO MANY rules in my head nowadays to keep it all straight! lol
I'm guilty of this with my monsters!!! I'll attack a PC twice and then with my third action... intimidate them!! d'oh!!!
@@JacksonOwex Not really. Most things in the game would want you to Intimidate (Demoralize) first to lower your enemy's AC and THEN attack, so it's easier to hit/crit.
Some feats allow you to immediately frighten an enemy if you hit it (Intimidating Strike) or do more damage if they're already frightened (Fearsome Brute). Some even ask you to only hit frightened creatures, like Shatter Defenses.
For players, it's always best to Intimidate first and then attack, unless you are left with a 3rd action after defeating an enemy and you don't want to move.
@@KnightsofLastCall I think that's not that bad, it really depends of the monster.
Some animals or unintelligent creatures charge first and then roar at you, and sometimes they scare you first and then attack. For intelligent enemies, I also think they're not always combat-perfect machines and can make mistakes, unless they're highly trained foes.
A way I explained Take Cover to my new players (we're all learning beginner's box style) is that even if you're next to a wall that you might think wouldn't provide any cover as a newbie, simply leaning up against the wall in a defensive position would eliminate one direction that a melee weapon could be swung at you entirely and let you defend from essentially one direction, so it's fairly reasonable that even a flat surface like a wall or pillar, even if not in cover normally, could provide a +2 bonus to being hit.
That and you're actively focusing on your defense with an Action. It may not be enough to justify +2 in the middle of an open space, but against a wall, sure.
Turns out walls are also good at reducing flanking opportunity.
I think you hit the nail on the head with "Players needs to make character that has a third thing to do" which is something that i pointed out in a long post i made about playing smart, but i also think that alot of the feats and classes has something inbuilt.
But i think for martials for melee its not that big of a problem with very few low level builds
-1hand and shield has raise shield
-1 hand and open ideally has dueling parry
-dualwield ideally has a parry trait weapon and twin parry by level 4
-Reach 2 hand weapons taking the step action to force an enemy to move, especially with fighter that has AoO is incredibly effective.
So its largely only an issue for those using 2 hand weapons without reach, and wanting for them to stay in combat.
To me twin takedown and monk flurry of blows should 100% be a character who runs in, attacks twice, runs out, but i have never seen that, for whatever reason.
Other than that you have base
-recall knowledge
-Hide
-Feint
-divert attention
-Treat poison
-Help stop persistent damage
-Demoralize
-Tumble Through
and tons of skill feats like battle medicine, bon mot and more.
So its definitely one of the issues thats ran into by the game design of "players needs to play smart" which i think is often talked about due to how brutal the combats are, along with flanking and positioning, giving them frightened is another -1 or -2, if you play a frilled lizardfolk you have a 2 action move and demoralize turned crit on a success. And hey, live and learn :D
Also a neat trick for third action against enemies that you know are weaker than you is Assurance with Athletics. Mathematically you can whip out an Athletics attack with Assurance which ignores MAP and it will succeed on that lower level enemy. This trick makes ways to do these at a distance (like bolas) really strong.
Here's a bit of advice for you PF2e players newbies or experienced:
Often times you will pick things that aren't that great when you're doing fine in battle, but every once in a while you will have one of those rounds where there are too many things to accomplish but you won't have enough actions. That's when you'll realize, and wish, you picked those action-enhancer feats that you thought "why would a pick that, I have enough actions normally and I also already have one option for that, so this is redundant!".
I'm already on the "like before watching" team with these videos
😍
Great video! Players NEED to watch this! I cannot confirm nor deny that I just sent the video to all of my players.
Much appreciated!
Just shared this whole series w my fellow new PF2 players!
Honestly I actually learned something from this video. I hadn't fully processed how open Aid actually was and was running it where you had to Aid with the same thing you were Aiding. Now that I re-read it I don't know how I came to that conclusion. Just left over relics of past systems in my brain I guess.
Yeah the Aid action is super indie in it's laxity and openness; as I said I think it's a huge way to gain some really cool "team-ups" and that precious +2 or +3/4 circumstance bonus to a roll
There are a few cantrips that are one action. My favorite is guidance. Every support character should be taking this cantrip.
In our Abom Vault game we have two casters that use Guidance a lot and it's good; but can I just say it's annoying to have to track that stupid 1 hour reset time for a dumb cantrip???
@@KnightsofLastCall no lie! We just do once per battle because it's easier. Though I have one player in roll20 that stick a debuff on themselves.
The “third action problem” probably could have done with a writeup in the crb, complete with one of those handy little scripted roleplay sections between a gm and players.
I'm thinking of creating a handout with a list of 3rd actions (or first actions) based on character type and need. Then if my players can't come up with something to do, I just point to the handy chart I made them and that should get the ball rolling.
Yes I agree! I think maybe they wanted to remain neutral or let player's "discover it for themselves" but that's not exactly newbie friendly.
@@adamu.2674 That's a great idea!
This is the “don’t make me tap the chart” bus driver meme
@@KnightsofLastCall Savage Worlds TTRPG used to do something similar, called a Combat Survival Guide. Fans have gone on to create one for the newest edition. drive.google.com/file/d/1VN7r4DRahSF4yOq7nK-OqpLVtdrmu14i/view. It's a chart, that gives ideas for combat options in specific situations. Such as not being able to hit the target because it's parry is too high, it suggests ganging up (basically flanking), or shoving them to the ground to make them easier to hit, etc. It's super helpful, even for players that aren't really new.
So making something like that for Pathfinder 2e, but with ideas to spend your actions on things could be interesting. I'll have to get some ideas together, create a spreadsheet, this video would be super helpful of course, and see what we see.
Recall knowledge is a fantastic 3rd action that a lot of people don't do.
These talks are really good quality guys, really enjoying them.
At risk of bringing up that old chestnut, I think this is where issues like the 'Illusion of Choice' video and people who echo its sentiments come from. One thing I noticed about that video on particular is Taking20 kept suggesting the only thing they could do was stand still and attack. That raised a lot of red flags for me, particularly because he claimed his players were playing 'optimally' but still died anyway. Same with other people who claim to get bored of the game, but suspiciously struggle with boss encounters being difficult or 'unfun' because they feel they lack options.
I think the reality is, a lot of old school players struggle to adapt to this because they see a lot of those third-action options as pointless. Like let's face it, how often did Aiding another player help in a system like 3.5/1e? How much of a difference to survivability if you ducked for cover? And as was mentioned, stealth was practically useless (unless you used cheese builds that let you do really broken shit like hiding in plain sight, which I dealt with once in a 3.5 game). But since The Maths Is Tight (tm) in PF2e, those little bonuses matter heaps more, and the deadliness of enemies means that can be the difference between life and death.
Someone mentioned the CRB should have driven how to use third actions as a main point, and I agree. Most problems people have with combat in 2e can be resolved if you think about ways to use your third actions and avoid the MAP attack problem.
You're still here after seeing that T20 video so evidently you don't buy into his thoughts, plus what are you gonna in D&D move and then attack and then be done, what happens in 3.5/PF1 you will probably move and then attack and then be done. The "illusion" spoken about in that video is not something you find in ONLY Pathfinder 2, it's in basically EVERY TTRPG.
Also, THIS video talks about a LOT of different things that you CAN do and I would guess there are a bunch more they didn't touch on! I do understand where you are coming from with the old school thought though, I have been playing TTRPGs for 25 years(BEFORE it was COOL, damn kids (; ).
Parallel to your thought about old school, I remember being a young kid playing the Pokemon games and NEVER keeping things like Tail Whip and Growl, things that applied status effect basically, because my brain was like "They don't do damage they SUCK!" Eventually I realized how wrong I was and started keeping those abilities. It wasn't a flaw in the GAME though, it was something "I" had to learn and understand over time, and players of TTRPGs might not like to hear it but the problem is NOT the game the problem is US, we need to get out of our old school mindsets and try to TRULY see and understand all the things that we CAN ACTUALLY do with the 3-Action System in PF2!
@@JacksonOwex oh don't get me wrong, I don't buy the T20 videos for a second, I was (and still am) a vocal critic of them. If anything, assuming that the 'optimal' option for an archer-built ranger is to stand still and spam attacks betrayed a great incompetence and lack of system understanding.
My point is trying to figure out why people have this issue, and I assume a big part of it is conditioning from previous systems that anything but moving and attacking is a waste of time.
May be an old chestnut, but T20's video lives on so it's still important to debunk it
@@ronaldsanfran agreed, people say to just forget it an ignore it exists, but a lot of people on boarding or who haven't even played the system have seen it. It's one of the most watched PF2E videos on CZcams and comes up very quickly with a search. Sadly unless the video gets taken down, it's going to be a stain on the discourse indefinitely.
@@JacksonOwex Regarding pokemon games i always say try playing a couple of match with people that play city or other low level tournaments, then you truly realize the importance of moveset and team composition ;)
Great talk, really like these talks! GREAT point brought up around 13:30, and one that I try to drill into my players: the best thing you can do is deprive your opponents of actions! Knock them prone, give them status effects, anything that deprives actions effectively makes the PCs that much more powerful. Also, though many monsters to not have AoO, a lot of them DO have abilities that give them free actions.
Yeah aid is so great in PF2. Which is yet another way it promotes teamwork which I absolutely love.
Yes; exactly the teamwork element of it is super fun!
Good discussion. I have never had an issue with finding something to do with a third action.
Sure you need to think about it but that's part of the game.
Not knowing what to do with an action is a player issue not a system issue. Part of the fun of the system is learning how to use your build effectively.
I completely agree! I feel like gaining system mastery and learning how to play the PF2E system is a big part of it's charm. Sadly, a lot of people never get that far... and the system can be a bit unforgiving... numerous deaths or unsatisfying play experiences (or both) can turn off newer players and I wish there was a bit more in the book about strategy and tactics since so many people are going to come to PF2 from PF1/5E where you essentially had your Standard and your Move action.
Agreed. I don't understand why this was the focus of the topic. The third attack isn't meant to be done every possible turn. Drink a potion, raise a shield, reload, move, intimidate, use a feat, literally anything you want too. In 5e you simply can't attack three times at first level, in pf2 it's an option, and if you want to be a constant multiattacker then take the feats to lower the penalty. It's not a design failure, it's a failure of imagination. I'm really perplexed by a lot of this episode, because it seems the conversation is framing pf2 as a mini based tactics game... It ain't, it's a rpg. Ya know?
Luckily I was warned ahead of time that you really want to find something that you can do as a third action outside of an attack (or grapple, trip, ect) so when I started playing PF2e in the spring, I built my barbarian knowing that I wanted to be able to use the demoralize action as my third action on turns where I don't move a step. To do this I took Raging Intimidation as my 1st level barbarian feat, which also gives you intimidating glare so you never have to worry about the -4 penalty to creatures that can't understand you. Then as my lvl 2 skill feat I took Intimidating Prowess, which gives you a +1 to demoralize At STR 16, and a +2 at STR 20, meaning you really don't have to invest in CHR at all. You won't be the best at intimidating, but it at least now gives you a decent option. Also, if you are using the archetype rules, a good option to further help give you a third action that ties in with your intimidation skill is Marshall. You get a base 10dt aura to give you and everyone in it a +1 to saves against fear effects, automatic bump up to expert in your intimidation, and at lvl 4 you get a stance that has you roll intimidation against your class DC to add a +1 x your damage dice to the damage of all martial weapon attacks made by people in your aura. Higher levels also have good reactions, different attack types, and at 8th level you can take attack of opportunity from the marshal tree, allowing you to take a different 6th lvl or lower barbarian feat once you reach that level.
Excellent tips. Sent it to my players
Awesome thank you!
It's mentioned, but moving away is critical. All martials should be moving away. On the next turn they may need to spend an action moving back up, and then another moving out again, but this is critical with higher level monsters. With the lack of a static attack of opportunity, you need to take advantage of that. So much of the big solo monster action economy is based off of taking beefy actions. If you can cost them one of those three by making them move to get in range, you are winning. And if you have someone Tripping (or slowing/stunning), they could easily lose access to a two-action activity that might be devastating - because they need to stand up and move.
But I love that your brought Aid back to the spotlight. That's an easy one to miss as you level because you don't even consider it an option at the low levels so you don't think about it once you hit mid-levels. Thanks!
This entire coversation on AoO made my head explode. Just recently switched to 2e and have run 3 sessions. Had NO idea AoO was not a thing the way it was in DND and PF1.
I absolutely love these discussions. I would love this in podcast form for commutes/work.
So the problem is not about the system but the players.
Intimidate is awesome.
Second. Moving. Staying next to the enemy unless you are a fighter is not a grate idea.
Hit a move.
He could intimidate if he was raging there is a feat for that at level 1 and it's grate.
The fact that most monsters don't do AoO means that move take cover is a good way to use the 3 actions.
Assurance athletics is grate for tripping, pushing, grappling.
Hidden is grate. I agree.
Aid is just so good once you get used to it.
"So the problem is not about the system but the players." WHAT?! /s
Reminds me think of a video from a few months ago!!!
With an animal companion, an action for the capabions is great
Feinting is a great one too!
n/m you said that!
Especially When your companion can do 4d8 worth of damage at level 3
Great talk. This is my new favorite TTRPG channel.
Witches casting that third action focus cantrip spell!
A lot of people dunk on hex cantrips for being useless, but so many of them just slot very neatly into action economy. They're cantrips, so they're not meant to break the game, but they're nice little bells and whistles. Imagine you manage to get a cheeky Evil Eye off before your main spell, that's a 5% reduced success chance on the creature's save, and that lasts as long as you can sustain the spell.
@@DanTalksGames the ice cantrip scales with half level, so that like an optimal 50% increase in damage output on opening round. Especially useful after someone else has debuffed the enemy or you need to finish a foe off.
I like these guys
We like you!
The Ranger/Barbarian in my group always has Gravity Weapon, Haste and Rage.
And with Twin Takedown, it seems he always rolls 19-20 on the third and 4th attacks.
Of course!
Ranger in general tends to be a general exception if you go Flurry. When your MAP is -2/-4, then your last attacks are all better off than the 2nd penalty the fighter has.
Which, also, makes the ranger slightly boring to play :(
@@BillDing88 He seems to like it. L
He's actually a precision Ranger because he started using his bow more.
But he's currently retraining into Flurry.
@@Unikatze oh absolutely! To each their own. Since I only got to play one character to a decently high level so far, I sometimes think I'm "missing out". But I do adore the character. Just wish I could play more!
Great podcast Knights. Love the quality you provide with your videos. Keep it up :)
Glad you enjoy it!
Lol. So many things I've fought in Extinction Curse had Attacks of Opportunities. Also, every enemy would have such better attack and defense scores. Secondly, PF2E has major environment control issues, where there is no cover or space to move. The number of battles in small rooms or hallways are a pain and freaking everywhere.
The stealth is a great add for all spellcasters.
Oh, aid is SO USEFUL. We use it all the time, at every level.
The environment issues you noted may just be in APs you’ve played. Since my groups switched in/out of APs & custom campaigns, there’s always opportunities at some game or another to use our skills & feats and such.
Great work guys! Lovin' the content
On my first session in PF2e I was doing just "shield cantrip" as It was only thing I knew I could use on 3rd action (sometimes move when enemy run from my reach).
I've learned about other options but this video blew my mind with other possibilities and how to put my mindset making a character.
Thanks alot for that!
Now I need to update my character before 1st session :D
Really impressed with the super professional audio & video quality. Great content too. Subbed
Thanks! We definitely tried to push our production quality as high as our knowledge (and budget) would allow :D
This was a great episode. Thanks! If you are looking for more topics for future episodes, maybe do separate mini episodes on "Three Action Economy" but focus on one specific class and get real in depth with options at each level.
Good idea :)
Or as a rogue feint first,
Just started playing PF2e. I love the complexity of this game. I know I'm late to the game here in commenting but I love how your videos help give me more ideas for diversifying what I can do with my characters. Thank you for the helpful hints.
I send all your videos to my party of nine players, cause, sure 😅, we are Expert on roleplay (very aged nerds here... Coming from d&d1st ed and so forth...) but pathfinder 2 ed really change the rules, and is too way fun to play❤, Also for an old navigated gm like me, pf2 is a Total new green Valley where i need to relearn a lot.
Really really appreciate your videos, thank soo much dudes
On more thing, for an exemple for the barbarian's 3rd action (since they can't concentrate): get trained in athletics, get assurance and try to trip/grapple with assurance as a last action. You won't get to use your strength bonus, but will also negate the -10 penalty. It'll land on the monster's weak saves and/or if they're low-ish level compared to you.
Note that it doesn't work to do it at the start of the turn, since it still increases your MAP.
This was very useful for me, thanks. I've been reading the rules and I seriously LOVE the 3 action idea and even the MAP. Looking for ideas to flesh out my turns is what I think I enjoy about character creation which I've not really experienced in other RPG chargen.
im currently playing Pathfinder WOTR and you'd be suprised how helpful these guides are. i havent played PF myself but have played 5e. and im super interested in PFs system
Another great episode! I truly love the laid-back way that you all explore various topics. Although I have yet to play PF2e I play DND 5e and as such most if not all of this fit well into 5e when decomposed into various different actions one could take as a "third action". I would recommend this for 5e players as well with the understanding that they would have to edit some of it to fit their specific context.
That's great! We try to keep our episodes fairly system agnostic; but our sub-base is pretty heavily PF2 leaned so we will do the occasional PF2 focused video; glad to hear that you still got some use out of it!
@@KnightsofLastCall Please keep the PF2 focus! I hope to someday get a chance to try it but for now I will find a lot of value from them regardless of the system.
I think it's class specific if a caster a so for most part takes 2 actions, and can move.
Ranger with flurry and with agile weapons is great.
As a fighter, or champion ore druid etc, raise a shield
I'm a bard and I would like to have 4 and 5 actions! This class is insane, it needs a lot of actions!
you can always haste yourself. Get that quickened condition.
Ty for the great advice.
Another thing you can do is take assurance (athletics). It ignores map penalty on shove, grapple ect.
Regarding boss fights and the action economy. What do you think? Should the monster have like two turns per round at different initiative, but only 2 action in each? Should always be hasted a Solo boss fight? Is it worth it to put a single monster 3 lvl higher than the party, or you should always put something lower and a bunch of smaller threats?
One Big Boss Monster encounters, as I call them - that is, a big creature usually PL+2 or higher - usually act as good standalone monsters because the maths favours them. They have much higher AC and saves, and much higher chance to hit and - more importantly - subsequently crit.
This is balanced by the fact the average party will have way, way more actions per turn, so while a powerful creatures' individual attacks will have more value, you get more chances to act against them. This is also important because you can use your actions to debuff the creature and buff yourselves, increasing your chance to hit while decreasing theirs to do the same. This is important particularly at higher levels, since creature hit rates become nasty and will easily be unable to be completely mitigated, so buffing AC and debuffing enemy attack rolls becomes a game of avoiding getting crit, rather than getting hit.
You can also easily throw a large group of monsters at the party and have it be a sufficient challenge. A PL+0 or 1 creature with some PL-1 or 2 mooks can still be threatening, but changes the tactics from focusing on the one monster to requiring hard CC and AOEs to help offset the extra assistance.
Against party sizes larger than 4 as well, you can easy throw an extra lower levelled mook or two in during a CL+2 boss encounter to balance the added encounter budget, while not having it be ridiculously unfair to the players.
Basically, the encounter budget system works and is well designed. While it might be tempting, fuckimg with things like initiative order can do more to break it than just playing it as RAW
Btw I love watching and listening to you guys
🤗
Amazing Video
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it!
Interesting discussion - thanks for sharing!! I'll also share it on my Discord channel!
P.S. I noticed that you use paper printouts... consider TOS 2nd PRO edition to manage (via printouts or dynamically) your Characters!
I like paper though! Old school mentality! Also prefer the physical books when playing though have come to see how useful the PDFs/sites can be for planning things!
As a GM I find I can't get I to the right headspace to work on my campaign unless I have the physical books. I still love using paper sheets and notebooks at the table. Digital tools are great but not always for everyone.
I'm new to this channel and already love it. These videos give me more things to consciously think about when it comes to Pathfinder and TTRPGs in general.
Love it, glad to hear we’re having a positive influence
I was going to say that Matt did a good job building his character, but then they said it. 😂 you should account for third action when building the character. Like having a shield or animal companion or grapple, trip, intimidate, sustain a spell, cast guidance... There’s loads of options but you need to account for it when building the character.
My favorite melee character was a Catfolk fighter who would attack with his claws and also carried a shield with a boss on it. He would grapple the monster, then claw and raise a shield. Because the grapple makes the enemy flat footed they had a -2 to defense and the claw is agile so it reduces the MAP from -5 to -4 so the claw would usually strike. (Fighters also have a slightly higher weapon proficiency which helps) Also if I happened to be grappling the enemy at the beginning of my turn I could just smash them with the shield boss or bite them a couple times and raise shield.
excellent!
Ngl I struggled with 3 actions for my monk for a bit from lvls 1-3 but at 3 I took assurance in Intimidation and the DM let me change my background to I believe Farmhand or Warrior, as one of those gives me assurance in Athletics so in addition to using stride and flurry of blows I could either use Intimidation with the assurance feat (poor charisma not even worth the roll) or Athletics assurance and bypass the MAP by instead going after the fixed Fort DC. All in all made my play style a lot more cohesive and fun as I didn’t have to struggle on what to do on my turns anymore
Honestly think the only class that conquers this problem is a flurry ranger, such a great class
A good thing for any maneuver focused martial, Assurance Athletics. Assurance doesn't get bonuses Or Penalties. So at expert at level 5 it gives you a 19. First attack, 19. Third attack, still 19. Good for trying to trip, grapple, shove, or disarm lower level or minions.
Yes we didn't mention this tactic and we should have of. As I've said other places the issue is that a 19 check is only going to be good against lower level foes and that's if you are targetting their weaker saves.. AND unless you already know that first check is a crap-shoot since you don't know if you are off by 1 or 2 or something. That being said it can be a powerful technique!
Or open with a feint (not an attack, not concentration)
The multiple attack penalty is so damn huge T.T
-2 works. Maybe -3. But -5 is freaking ridiculous lol
A lot of spellcasters have metamagic that in PF2e nbeeds you to tajke an action before casting a spell. But like the "I attack at -10" When the target is in normal spell range, why spens an action for reach metamagic?
You have the cantrip telekinetic hand get a player to disarm the foe. On your turn use the cantrip on the disarmed weapon if light to throw at maybe another enemy... our GM hated us for that
For Aid it should be pointed out the skill check or attack roll made by the Aiding character is decided by the GM. It is not decided by the skill the aided character is using. So helping magic doesn't have to be with magic if you can sell your GM that an Arcana or Deceive roll would also help the other caster.
My concern with Aid and why I don't use it even at levels where DC 20 is easy is because hitting DC 30 is harder than Striding to provide a Flank and the +2 circumstance. I have never played in a game where I got to the level DC 30 would be easy, but if I did I don't know if the extra +1 from being a Master was as good as setting myself up for my own +2 Flank next turn and holding onto my Reaction for AoO. Maybe I would for the extra +2 from legendary, but I am not sold on Aid till it might give +4s and thats kind of bad.
The problem (for me) with the Aid action is that it's not well defined. For instance, I would never think to use my Arcana skill to empower someone else's spell because that's not actually a thing defined by the rules and therefore, in my mind at least, impossible.
I heard Aid also suffers from "The typical DC is 20, but the GM might adjust this DC for particularly hard or easy tasks." The They said that Aid DC is always 20 which is not true.
The problem of using intimated to aid your friend against Goblin at early levels is way harder than to aid using intimated against Dragon at much higher levels 😆
You could fix this problem by saying default Aid DC is 10 + propriate save bonus. Dragon's DC would be 36! while Goblin Warriors DC would be just 17. You might also get circumstance bonus like saying you will use charisma to tell a joke to aid the warrior to hit but actually tell a good joke that makes the GM laugh asking if that lowers the Aid DC?
Stride! Force your enemy to spend one of its action if it wants to get to you.
They did say that, not sure if you said this before they really got into the things that you can do but moving definitely one of them!
Ok, have I been doing this wrong the whole time? I thought to be able to Aid you had to Ready which is two Actions to get a Reaction. Now I'm re reading Aid and it says you must first prepare to help, usually by using an action during your turn. I guess Ready is mostly used to get AoOs if you don't normally get them?
its fun going for that third chance to hit. its like gambling!
For spellcasters: What do you guys think about "carrying over" spells that cost 2-3 actions into the next round? i.e. I'm a cleric with one action left, but I cast a three action heal into the next round, costing me 1 action now and 2 actions when it's my turn again. The downside is that the spell can be interrupted if I'm attacked or likewise "engaged" by the enemy before the spell pops. I have not tried this, but I'm curious to give it a go.
I haven’t seen that used yet, but I’ll watch for that opp in our games
New player looking in, created a character and two sessions under my belt, question is won't a round of combat with so many options in higher levels take forever?
You didn't mention that Assurance isnt affected by MAP. So Assurance Athletics is useful for combat maneuvers. In addition Melee chars should *never* end their turn adjacent to foes if at all possible.
Another useful 1 action use is Battle Medicine.
Third Action, Athletics:Trip with Assurance. NO MAP (See Assurance)
Assurance isn't super great unless you're righting an equal or lower levelled creature with a weak save to whatever maneuver you're using.
Don't get me wrong, it's a strong option in fights with mooks and weaker enemies you need to CC, but it's not a must-have. The maths will generally favour creatures you absolutely need those debuff states on.
Yes it should get a mention. Even though it only works for maybe 20% of on level enemies. It is not much value at higher levels though.
When it works though, it's brutal. And it only takes one (third) action to figure out if it does for any particular enemy, with no risk of backfire through critical failure.
3rd Action for Barbarian do Shove, Trip, Grapple, or etc. Now I know they mention these as poor choices in the video but this is because they don't take into account the Feat Assurance ;). Assurance gives you 10+Prof and ignores all bonuses AND penalties(Including MAP). So a level 5 Barbarian expert in Athletics gets a guaranteed (10+5+4) = 19 vs whatever DC they are targeting. Which means if you succeed you will ALWAYS succeed on that attack vs the enemy unless they do something to increase their DC. How it's Played even did a video on this and confirmed with Paizo it works that way.
Check out our Combat & Tactics Volume 4 video! We cover this exact thing!
@@KnightsofLastCall Will do
Would attempting to use melee to aid not still be subject to the -10 penalty for the third attack action?
It would not! For starters the actual check to Aid is a reaction that occurs on not your turn, when it's not your turn Multiple Attack Penalty does not apply [the single exemption being if you use the Ready Action]... secondly the Aid reaction itself doesn't have the Attack trait which means MAP doesn't increase or apply to it.
I'm a DM and I re-learned things in this video. I always forget about cover related stuff. I'll be recommending this video to each of my players.
MOVE, dancing around the battlefield is a great use of the 3rd action, basically you get spring attack for free. since only fighters have AOO there's much more benefit from being battlefield-mobile.
Feint is also a great option, also having Assurance in a skill you can often use to Aid-another is pretty dope.
*Nice video .*
*But their are many more tricks to maximize the 3-action system .*
*I'm probably going to make a video on this topic in the future .*
Ohh yeah just scratching the surface of this super deep system for sure! I sub'd to your channel (do you have a specific RPG one?) so looking forward to it!
If you have a +20 skill and assurance, does that mean you can aid and crit every time?
Yup! Remember though that Assurance doesn't count non-proficiency bonuses... so you'd need to have +20 from level+proficiency... but that's acheiveable at level 14 (14 level + 6 Master)
Wait. So you can use aid to give a bonus to attack rolls?
You sure can: and in a lot of cases at mid to high level it's kind of a must-do in order to be able to hit higher level foes
@@KnightsofLastCall Kinda feels like it might get abused. You know how players can devolve to "I do the thing I did earlier to aid". I liked your example for the Arcane skill though. This means the group needs to be a bit more clever to how they're aiding for it to make sense (and more fun) in the context of the roleplay.
Rereading, it does say the what the trigger is which includes ATTACK action:
Trigger An ally is about to use an action that requires a skill check or attack roll.
It sure would be nice if you could reflavor rage more freely but its restrictions is limiting.
assurance athletics for third action?
The assurance route is fine; but 1. it only works on foes that are lower level than you (because of how low your assured check is) and 2. is still a crap shoot the first time you perform it because of not knowing what the foe's Fort/Reflex is.
That being said it's a fine option for sure; it's just a shame to trip LAST after spending the round attacking your foe; BUT it does set up your team nicely and presumably burns one of their actions and likely provokes some AoOs :D
You should be using an athletics on your first go. Setting them up to be tripped is helping all your players get flanking.
33:18 I DID IT MA!!! lol
Great talk, love the podcast, however it really seems like a bunch of people trying to minmax their turns over roleplay. I think breaking the cycle of move-attack reinforced by dnd 4e and 5e is the key. It's good not to frame it as a "waste" of a turn. Think about how often a bonus action and reaction aren't used in 5e, would you consider them a waste? No. It's all about mental framing. Anyway, keep up the great convos.
I'll say this the sheer any of attacks a pf1 monk got flurrying and all the math can be nuts, the pf2 monk by comparison is easier to...."swallow"?
unless you had to move more than 5ft
I$ you're first and you have another martial behind you. Go up whack a mook then move around to the rear. Next player just moves up gets Off Guard for the stabby stabby
MAP seems odd, I would think you should get some sort of an adrenaline/momentum bonus….
It's supposed to reflect stamina, in combat you are probably making several attacks, it wears you down.
Barbarian: Attack then power attack…. Easy…. 🤣🤣🤣
Love it :D
Aid says that the "typical DC is 20, but the GM might adjust this DC for particularly hard or easy tasks". I think as a GM I would probably make it scale with level to some degree. Just seems strange that low level characters should have such a hard time helping each other at all while after a certain point, they grant each other extremely powerful +3/+4 bonuses effortlessly even as the tasks they're aiding become objectively much harder. Or rather, it's not in line with how bonuses/penalties scale in PF2e generally speaking.
That's not necessarily true; something like Heroism (which is kind of the default baseline of generic-status-bonus-buff-to-d20-rolls) scales with level granting +1 early on to +3 later on.
The idea (I think) is that since the monsters HP does scale faster than the PC's damage... having additional sources of bonuses to hit will cause a net effect of the PCs hitting more often/crit more often at higher level which helps offset the monsters increased hp relative to their damage.
Take Cover, sadly, doesn't do anything special with lesser Cover. It explicitly calls out bumping standard cover to +4, and otherwise grants standard cover (+2).
so taking cover behind Lucky is the same as taking cover behind the boulders.
There is no 3rd action problem. Its ok if you don't use all 3 actions every turn. The fact that they're there is enough.
That’s a really good point. In PF1e (and 5e) people often don’t Move (because they’re already in melee range, or they’re in a good ranged position) - and we wouldn’t say that’s wasting an action.
Pathfinder is not my game. Starfinder is my kind of game. D&D used to be my kind of game but is not anymore due to the OGL.
I like this tactical and strategical kind of content.
Not a fan of the simplistic introduction to this video. So many options for he third action. A lot of feats allow you to tighten up action economy, spells that cost 1 action, moving after spellcasting, etc.
I really do not get the lack of strategy people show in these discussions.
Just disarm/trip/shove/grapple/intimidate/faint/aid/recall knowledge - just do anything instead of a -10MAP hit.
I think all these guys have the biggest problem. Which is WoW syndrome where they seem to lack an imagination to fill in the gaps for available attacks...
So... I enjoy your talking, but you have completely put me off of Pathfinder 2e. It sounds like combat is a cool board game, and that is just not what I want in an RPG... though Dying and encumbrance are lovely mechanics!!
It has a bit more in it. It is not cumbersome, complex or bulky. It works well. But if you want something super light weight, then yes, go elsewhere.
Combat is no different feeling in D&D!!! In my opinion it is worse, there really isn't a whole hell of a lot for you to do besides move and then cast a spell and POSSIBLY, MAYBE, but UNLIKELY do something as a bonus action. I don't understand how so many people seem to think that D&D is somehow different and/or better in any way.
Cool board game?? All of these things make sense in the universe of the world. It's tiring to just attack! Helping an ally, forcing a slow lumbering brute catch up to you, raising a shield instead of leaving yourself open... these provide cool RP moments imo. If it doesn't sound like fun to be have be this tactical then the GM can lower monsters by a level and boom you can play just as you do in other systems.
What do you want in an RPG? Do you have a favorite?
Ah. I probably was less than clear. I want my players to do all those cool things, I have just found at my table that if there are such explicit mechanics, then that means that my players will only do the things they are "allowed" to do, as opposed to doing cool things and letting me have the world react accordingly.
It's a preference, for sure, but for my table, people will often be less creative in combat if they have a list of options as opposed to doing what they think will work and working with me to have an appropriate outcome.
5e does have this issue. Yeah. I just feel more comfortable fudging 5e mechanics to fit my table than Pathfinder's. It might be just as easy.
2E is terrible pathfinder you can do 10000% more, makes more sense, and is open source.
you have heard of Pathfinder Infinite right? Or used Nethys?
Barbarian with a two handed weapon needs to take mauler as an art type at second level and then he’s got access to power attack
I think I said this before but why isn’t the barbarian taking raging intimidation? It should actually be the very first VTEC every barbarian text it’s so good it’s like one of those features that everybody takes because it’s good
Your bonus is way more than +9 at level eight for a barbarian… Much more I’m driving right now so I can’t figure it out myself but is much much more than +9
I really feel like the barbarians got screwed in second edition and to mix proper use of a barbarian you almost must take either fighter or Mauler Dedication in order to properly make use of the barbarian and because he got hosed really bad for a second edition
Why is the fighter taking a single action swing? He should be power attacking or any number of fighter feats That take to actions and are significantly better than just swinging twice
Depends... a PC who need an 11 to hit (16 with MAP), using a d8 weapon, dealing d8+4 damage will with two attack on average deal 7.225 damage... with power attack you'll only deal an average of 7.15
But there are certainly instances where feats can make actions more appealing, for example Double Slice is most likely one of the most powerful feats in the game.
@@KnightsofLastCall Sorry for all the typos. I use voice dictation and get a lot of mistakes. At the lower levels power attack is good. But in the higher levels it’s a trap. But there are many other fighter feats for a two handed weapon that are good.
Listening to the guy that plays the barbarian is driving me bonkers… Listen a second level you take mauler. You gain power attacks… You move in on one action you power attack that takes up to actions and you’re done and you’ve done more damage than swinging twice this assumes that you have already raged. I can’t remember what it’s called but you get the feet that allows you to take to move actions and one attack for two actions instead of three… You move it up to your master you attack and then you got a third action you take one movement and move away… As long as you have that one particular feat you can always figure out how to move twice attack and then move away with your third action and you keep doing this over and over again… Personally it’s a play style that I can’t stand because I like to just stay there in the face of the monster but it doesn’t work that way with pathfinder you get killed really fast…