ADHD & Lack of Play - Further Refutations of Jordan Peterson
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- čas přidán 29. 08. 2023
- This video continues my rebuttal of Jordan Peterson's assertion that ADHD is primarily the result of a lack of opportunity for rough and tumble play, primarily in boys. It discusses Peterson's use of the animal research of Jaak Panksepp that found that socially isolated juvenile rats showed increased aggressive play when entering a social situation, although it dissipated with time. I am quite familiar with this research as Panksepp was on my dissertation committee and corresponded with me occasionally thereafter about the applicability of his findings to ADHD, then known as hyperactivity. After demonstrating the lack of comparability of rat play research to human play, the difficulties directly extrapolating from the rat brain to the human brain that is any times larger and more cortically developed, I review the findings in ADHD that directly refute Peterson's assertions. I then argue that Peterson's opinion implies that parents are to blame for their child's ADHD as they are the one's immediately responsible for their children's social environments -- a position that was held 50+. years ago that was resoundingly refuted by many subsequent studies. I then argue that such a position has no scientific standing, is worse than wrong, and is morally offensive given the voluminous research on the neurodevelopment and genetic nature of ADHD.
The video is just under 40 minutes long. I did not cut it into smaller videos as, like the closing arguments of a prosecuting attorney, this speech builds to a crescendo that should not be interrupted by frequent breaks.
Thank you for refuting these out dated and dangerous theories of ADHD. As the youngest of 5 boys, I grew up in a home where intense physical play and wrestling was a common daily event. I've lived 48 years with moderate to severe ADHD and in spite of a life of intense physical play (I do Jiu Jitsu), I still have ADHD. ADHD is not due to the social environment or lack of physical play. JPs dangerous theory is similar to when we blamed refrigerator mom's for causing autism. Science and research matter! I'll share this with our ADHD parent support group!!! Thank you, Dr. Barkley!!!
So your saying that we don't have a lack of physical play in our schools? Does the fact that you were the youngest of 5 boys have anything to do with your case, not every case is the same....does Jiu Jitsu help? If so why? Have you ever coached youth sports or taught in the classroom. Only one theory works? Throw the rest out? That is not how you solve problems. Martial Arts is a great place to cure many anxieties, would you agree? Happy trails...
@@kentbrown1632Ok cool. That's not the issue here. The issue is Jordan Peterson is peddling pseudo science.
mom's with autism could be refrigators more often - and this is how this theory was created ;)
@@kentbrown1632 no he is not
I'm 53, easily diagnosed ADHD at 48. I played the whole time growing up in large social groups and was popular etc. rough and tumble play began from being born and was constant. Started martial arts age 8 with judo was already good at multiple sports, individual and team based. Also chess and other things etc etc. Always playing. Also progressed in martial arts to traditional Kung Fu, which I still study and teach to this day. My children have had official ADHD labels since childhood and their life trajectory is different to mine. They also had rough and tumble from birth. Peterson's mind is behaving very ADHD like with his over excited and ill considered extrapolations 😂. Ok for the pub. Not for his position in society.
I find it crazy that those are saying an expert such as yourself didn't provide evidence.
Doc, you've been instrumental in the modern understanding of ADHD with your studies, and have personally opened my eyes through what I went through my whole life. My brother who has ADHD alongside PTSD (due to his time in the military) urged me to do research on it when I asked, and I'm so grateful for his advice and your expertise.
You encourage hundreds, if not thousands of people to do better, and be better. Love your videos, though, I have to take them in chunks, lol. :)
Thank you!
We all see it, im just greatful we now have a more thoroughly researched perspective delivered in a kind realistic accessible manner. . Peterson's approach is media growth over, further education, empathy and understanding. Thank you from us ALL. We will help your growth... you will see ❤
Dr. Barkley, I'm sending you a virtual hug. My ADHD isn't an excuse to lose, but it is an exhausting daily battle, and soldiers like you who fight for us daily gives us strength and courage to keep going.
I second that hug. What a relief to have such a kind and intelligent advocate for all of us!
Hug received. Thanks!
Of course but Jordan's assertion that the system may stifle the built-up energy of a young boy or girl who simply would benefit more every day for a good run, or skip or jump rather then sit still in your seat, you see Jordan is simply saying that, the more play less sitting in your seat might quiet some anxieties caused by the present curriculum, it may not be your thing but Peterson isn't challenging your need or your solution, it simply should be an honest debate, I would be interested in Jordan's response as well.
Please rebut Gabor Mates views on ADHD🙏🙏🙏
Thanks for this! Terrible to see celebrity voices promoting the false ideas I’ve been fighting against for decades!
His videos about early childhood trauma discuss this stuff, about 2/3 months agonI think
He already did! Not sure where to find though.
I tried to do so in my lecture on trauma and ADHD. Thanks!
That dude completely speaks out of his depth. Just asinine takes.
Gabor has a point as childhood trauma can lead to many addictions that result in low dopamine. Trauma...cocaine...adhd!! Voila!!
JBP fanboys are so annoying and none of them have read his magnum opus "maps of meaning".
But the academic community has really been dropping the ball lately with respect to scrutiny imho, and that's very very dangerous.
Having lived with ADHD for almost 40 yrs, I'm grateful for your dispelling of misinformation and hype. It's just counterproductive to progress without these kinds of thorough critiques. If nothing else but for posterity, this is an extremely important record.
doesn't watching the tiktoks about it count?
The problem is that there's just so much to refute. Baseless, non-scientific "opinions" and "beliefs" and plain old lying are the norm these days.
People like Peterson don't need to understand the subject on which they speak. Just an opinion will do. It's easy for him. Those that understand how he's wrong are not the target audience and for those that believe in him, they believe whatever he says is truth. To them scientific facts mean nothing. Jordan has them hooked. People can say whatever they want and no facts will stop others from buying into it.
This is a social media problem more than anyone scientific body problem. Communication could be better by the scientific field but the truth isn't as catchy as the conspiracy.
@@tomh5094 It seems like these phenomena of smart people giving specific opinions about which they are under-informed is a side effect of being an intelligent person with a profile. For instance, Neil deGrasse Tyson might be informed about things having to do with space, but because he is seen as a smart person people will just ask him general questions, even if those are outside of his area of expertise.
@@tomh5094 despite how much it irks me, I have to say that it's because of JBP that this channel's videos gained traction and the conversations are being had. There's still a function being served, it's just meandering toward public awareness rather than taking a straight path as I'd prefer.
@@Jumpyfoot To be honest I'm not opposed to scientists and academics having opinions on things they are unfamiliar with, I'm only opposed to them presenting their uninformed views as the doctrine of experts. People are people and we should all be open to discuss things we don't know much about because we learn from each other than way, and the informed are challenged to learn by teaching their points of view too.
The issue is when Neil or Jordan present themselves as knowledgeable and try to persuade people to their opinions using their unrelated credentials because it's manipulative or deceptive, sort of. It's like trying to win an argument with a straw man rather than a pertinent analogy. And the followers who blindly believe public figures then go on to dismiss others with different views because of their faith in the misguided "expertise" of their favourite public figure. It's as much an issue with the public opinion as it is with the public figures misrepresenting themselves, but the experts ought to be held to a higher standard of care given the public's trust in their authority and intellect. The public relies on experts for their own education, not vice versa.
Thank you! You've put so much more effort into this rebuttal than it deserves. Sadly, it's so much easier to speak with confidence about things one doesn't understand and become a celebrity than to actually research the body of evidence. The wise man knows when to say, "I don't know." When someone confidently answers every question posed to them as if they were an expert in everything, it's sure to be pure sophistry.
Yeah i agree with what you said. However as a person who listens to JP regularly, i dont hang on every single word he says and definitely not for things about ADHD.
Jordan Peterson is where i go for updates on the state of free speech laws in Canada. JP should be able to say what ever thinks about ADHD, especially on social media, just as you as a professional in the subject should contiue to debunk such claims he has made.
If JP was saying practicing this about ADHD to his client's as a practicing shrink, is a different story and free speech laws shouldnt apply in such cases.
You need to look at JP as a free speech advocate in his current role. Free speech means he can say things that are factually incorrect and ppl should be allowing him to do so outside of a clinical setting
@@_ruddegar,
Peterson is not a free speech advocate. He is a blow hard shill for conservative talking points. Which are inherently anti-liberty.
You're illiterate.
@@_ruddegarah yes the free speech expert who said everyone would be thrown in jail for being against trans people any day now..
@@_ruddegarabsolutely not. He holds a position that carries inherent credibility as it relates to statements about mental health. If he is knowingly spreading false or misleading information on a large scale, *that's worse than in a one on one setting.*
So true. Thanks
Dr Barkley, this is an incredibly concise summary of exactly why Jordan Peterson's assertions regarding the prevalence and origins of ADHD are factually incorrect. The last few minutes are so impassioned, it is clear what an amazing advocate you are.
As there is already one comment here attempting to refute the evidence you present, may I humbly suggest that providing citations to the main articles (ie. that focussing on showing the underdeveloped prefrontal cortex through medical imaging) be added to the video description or perhaps in a comment somewhere? They would also probably be very interesting reading for many, if they are now publicly available.
Thank you so much for your incredibly knowledgeable video and heartfelt advocacy :)
I haven't read A Different Key (now on my to-read list), but I did read Steve Silberman's book, Neurotribes, last year. I wept to read about the treatment of children with Autism and their families, particularly the influence of eugenics, and the chapter that addresses "The Invention of the Toxic Parent". Unconscionable, indeed.
As upset as this topic clearly made you im sure i’m not the only one comforted by this video. Thank you
There is a lot I want to praise about this video and your work in general, Dr. Barkley. One thing stands out though and I cannot stress it enough: it is your firm stance against blaming parents and especially mothers for conditions like ADHD and autism. We are indeed not going back fifty years and shame on ANY scholar who still holds such beliefs in light of the evidence of the last decades.
I really appreciate you tackling this issue. Thank you for keeping us all informed!
There is a saying from the late 1800s that if you would know something well you are obligated to share it with others. Hence, this channel. Thank you!
This is not only an invaluable presentation on ADHD research, but a profound lesson on professionalism. Thanks Dr. Barkley!
Unreal. Thank you so much for your work, Dr Barkley. You have been a guiding light for me and my family.
Thank you for both your thorough refutation and your vehement defense of parents. It's tough enough to navigate parenthood of an ADHD child without an extra layer of judgement. Also, thanks for choosing to spend so much of your retirement communicating science! These videos are so impactful for those of us learning to navigate the disorder, as well as our loved ones.
Just a note to you Dr. Barkley: When I was first diagnosed 6 months ago I found one of your lectures to CADDAC somewhere here on CZcams. Your lectures have become a mainstay for my learning and work on treating of my ADHD. A household stimulated by science and intellectual thought your lectures have even pulled in my husband, who otherwise I've had trouble getting to sit down to understand how to work with me and my brain. I have suspected I may also have CDS but viewing your videos on the topic this week I'm convinced I need to bring the possibility up with my doctor.
I watch a lot of lectures on various topics, video essays, etc. I can say with confidence no other lecturer keeps my attention more than yourself. Fitting given my brain and your area of expertise. I just wanted to thank you on two fronts. First, thank you for your decades of solid work in this field and your consistent efforts in making your vast knowledge available and intellectually accessible to the broader public. Next I want to thank you for openly refuting JF'nP. This ridiculous person has attacked every aspect of my existence as a human being and his toxic view on men and masculinity even more abhorrent to my husband than myself (and with adhd you can imagine how raw my emotions I feel). I woke up exhausted from adhd insomnia, in a low mood from adhd burnout and finally clicked on the JF'nP refutation videos just to stimulate my brain into movement. It worked and my mood has improved with hearing someone with real expertise ripping bad science apart.
This was the second longer than intended post today but I just felt moved to say:
THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU.
I grew up with 2 brothers and a neigjborhood full of kids pre internet. All we did was play. I have done competetive athletics since 3rd grade. For 30 years i have trained 2 to 4 hours a day. It seems to take the edge of my symptoms but I still have adhd.
What about play as a necessity for appropriate social behavior? I remember two books i read years ago. One was john Gottmans meta emtion and families. In it he stated rough and tumble play, particularly with father socialized against too much agression. The other book which i think was called play had resewrch about interviews with incarcerated men which showed many had impovershed play histories.
Thanks Dr Barkley peterson is hugely popular right now so thjs is ne3ded
ADHD can be the _cause_ of fewer play opportunities, not the other way round. That goes for both children and untreated / undiagnosed adults.
I can't thank you enough of your passion, dedication and years of research/literature/presentations for ADHD. I was happy to see you taking a stand and correcting mainstream misinformation but was put off at the personal tone. My whole life I've had doctor's, employers, teachers, adults and peers tell me that ADHD is not real. The answer has never been to respond with anger, condescension and personal attacks. NT's have zero perception and little education of this condition but in a world of soo many diagnosed & undiagnosed conditions it is not reasonable to expect it. Society/culture has come a far way in accommodating ND people with ADA/special education/early intervention/treatments. I had hoped that you would have touched on some of Peterson other points like how some personality traits such as low conscientiousness attribute to ADHD. Also acknowledging where Peterson provided helpful advice like his future authoring & accountability talks. Taking a more measured response could have lead to open dialogue and even a collaboration. Regardless, it's not about changing his views but using the wider net of influence generated by responding to a popular figure to reach and educate a larger audience. Please continue to produce your amazing content and efficacy for ADHD. Please consider hosting a public talk, I would love the opportunity to meet one of my heros.
Dr. Barkley, thank you for creating and sharing this excellent discussion.
Whilst I've been struggling on and off titration again for my ADHD, I found you for the first time and I will be forever grateful. I just wish we had more professionals like you available to us all for treatment.
I was diagnosed young, and was medicated up until I was 18. I listened to garbage opinions that dismissed ADHD as a legitimate condition. Yet, I struggled deeply with executive function and motivation my entire young adult life. 10 years after getting off medication, I am back on, and it has been a complete game changer. Thank you for these videos. For being a voice for all of us who struggle!
i am off meds for two years and am proud to announce I have accomplished...ABSOLUTELY NOTHING for two years!!! lol....i am basically without a frontal-cortex...its actually quite liberating being a total moron who can't remember five minutes ago.
Thanks for your videos man, and for keeping it up still. I used to watch lectures/talks you gave years ago and it helped a lot, and it was a happy surprise seeing you uploading videos on your own channel. I tried omega3, mediation, you name it, all the "holistic" treatments imaginable, proper medication without using it as an excuse or crutch has made all the difference for me, since 2012, thank you.
Very good news! Keep it up. Be well, Russ
Let’s get Jordan on your show!
Thanks for having our back Doc!
One of the things that kept me from looking into ADHD seriously years ago was precisely his comments on it. It just reinforced my own misinformed beliefs about it being bs. Now I wish I had been diagnosed earlier, my life would have been so much easier.
That being said, I still do have a lot of respect for Jordan Peterson but take what he says with a lot more caution. I guess it’s also our responsibility to filter and balance what we take in.
Videos like this are very important to clarify misunderstandings and reduce the negative impact of the misinformation. Unfortunately it doesn’t have the same reach as the original claims.
Thank you Dr. Barkley!
Why would your life have been easier with the diagnosis
@@NoahSteckleyI would have understood my limitations and work with them rather than trying to push through unassisted.
recently found you through a clip of your presentation on ADHD like 8-9 years ago, CADDAC i think it was?
it really showed me alot so now im kinda just going through various videos to get what info i can. though i've yet to get properly diagnosed, im sure you'd agree ADHD might work towards preventing its own diagnosis, haha...
i hope to get it done sooner rather than later....regardless that presentation from years ago put into words what i've been struggling to properly express to anyone for ages...i hope to use it and help explain it better to people from now on...good stuff, thanks for all the effort!
Thank you for these videos on JP.
You are truly making the internet a better place, Professor!
I would love to hear a presentation from you on a summary of some of the other most common pop pschologogical misconceptions about ADHD. You mention many of them here and there across other videos, but i would be curious, what do you think are the most prevalent and perniscious misconceptions out there? Thanks for everything you do!
Hello Dr Barkley, I’ve been enjoying this stellar rebuttal to JPs comments and, more broadly, the analytical and evidence based content you provide on popular topics in the space of ADHD.
I particularly appreciate how you side with the evidence even when it is not so nice to hear, as is the case often (hyperfocus, intelligence, and creativity come to mind)
I am curious if there’s anything for us to know about the age of diagnosis in ADHD.
Is there any support for the “fallen angel” theory, where smart kids bumble through early education relying heavily on IQ/G and only later get diagnosed as adults when a larger challenge comes about (e.g university)? How predictive is intelligence of a late diagnosis and how mitigating is IQ/G of ADHD impact? And does this have a bearing on treating or diagnosing ADHD in adults and children?
I had a look with my university’s resources but could not find much academic research on this, perhaps it needs a more seasoned eye than mine (and Jack Sparrow hat).
Thank you so much for all the excellent work you do.
There are a few studies on gifted adults with ADHD, such as by Kevin Antshel, that show few differences other than greater educational success and eventual attainment. You can find them using Google Scholar to scan the journals for those terms. Clinicians seeing adults with ADHD do remark on how those with high IQs are likely to be referred later than typical ADHD cases of average IQ but I don't recall seeing any research on the issue. Be well,
That makes a lot of sense, I’ll give Antshel a read. Thanks for taking the time!
Thank you for taking the time to elaborate on the topic, Mr Barkley. It is interesting that Jaak Pankseep later argued that increasing opportunities for childrens to play could play a role in overcoming ADHD . Perhaps this could be linked to the know widely accepted stance that exercise helps to lower ADHD symptoms
Scholars who turn themselves over to pop-psychology and do the international talk tours like stand up comedians will always run aground against scholarly rigorous science. The very nature of their intent in doing this is to reuse and propagate any assumption that will be accepted by more people. Their purpose is bums on seats, whereas scholars like Dr. Barkley, and myself (now retired) have one core purpose why we dedicate and value scholasticism and rigorous research; and that is to relieve suffering. JP like those before him have a conflict between that purpose, and the business model of more people equals more income for themselves. He can not avoid this, and if he cares only to break even, the. There’s quite the narcissistic ego driving the desire to be loved by the masses, and conduct pop psychology lectures like they were building a mega religion!? And to have the capacity to review and consume the corpus of research on the subject and do not do so. Is ethically abhorrent for a scholar. I believe that one must disclose that they are an agent of pop psychology, and leave their PhD at the stage door, or disclose that what they say on stage will be mostly personal opinion! He causes harm (maleficence ) which as a scholar he would have at once made a commitment not to do, but as a true clinician in any situation always seek beneficence;to do within one’s power all that is good for working to relieve human suffering in his or her professional and personal life. Dr. jMD, PhD (Ohio).
Thank you Dr. Barkley.
I could not have said it better. Thank you so much.
I respectfully disagree on this. One thing that one cannot accuse JP of is saying things because they are popular.
Much rather, JP is obsessed with the idea of dominance hierarchies and very whole-heartedly believes that any distortion in the natural dominance hierarchy will create mayhem. It’s been his theme forever.
He sees every psychological issue through this world view. E.g. in his view, depression is caused by a mismatch between one’s actual position in the dominance hierarchy and one’s subjectively perceived position in the dominance hierarchy.
ADHD, in his mind, is caused by society suppressing the dominance hierarchy from naturally unfolding.
And so on…
He actually believes this stuff.
@@VogMasuNah I think he's just a grifter that's high on his own BS at this point. Go listen to his talk with Dawkins, he practically admits that his entire worldview is essentially just wishful thinking & intellectual exploration as opposed to anything grounded in fact. He's obviously very capable of rational thinking but prefers aesthetic to inconvenient facts. See his takes on the Bible for an example of this.
@@TruthDissident Well, that’s basically what I was trying to say I guess 😅
I used to make youtube videos, you have so much quality that I think your videos do very well if you do shorts ontop of the full length videos you normally do. It really helps with how youtube ranks your videos
Thanks for this refutation. It's helpful, even for someone like me who has seen her son make vast improvements to his life with ADHD meds, and who then went on to have personal experience with how much easier life is when ADHD is treated. It's real, I KNOW it's real.
And yet, when I heard him say that "nonsense on stilts" about ADHD coming from upbringing, my shame kicked in immediately. I need to try harder, I failed my son, I'm just looking for an excuse to be careless, etc. And then I was able to settle myself by remembering that just because he knows a lot about one thing doesn't make him knowledgeable about everything, and I was able to forgive him his ignorance the same way I don't require everyone around me to be knowledgeable about ADHD. There's no need to run around correcting people all the time. But I'm glad you did this time.😊
Personal experience shows me that what Jordan Peterson says about it is false. My son had plenty of play, both intellectual and rough and tumble. He still has ADHD. I grew up in the country in the 80s and 90s, and there was LOTS of outdoor play for me as well. I didn't know I had ADHD until after my son was diagnosed and I still didn't notice anything strange about him.😅 My whole life made sense, and it was a much more palatable way of seeing things, as opposed to my previous self judgment of being lazy, weirdly unfeminine, possibly a bit stupid, etc.
However, in our case, it is true that it's the mother's fault. I have it and I passed it on to him for sure, and my daughters probably. I feel sad about that because I don't want them to have trouble. However, I also passed on good things too. (And other bad things, like short-sightedness) Overall, I feel like they're lucky to have a parent who understands the struggle and will push them to do better but without making it a character issue. I think they're wonderful, and even if I knew I had ADHD before having babies, I would still have wanted to have them. We'll be okay.
I. APPRECIATE. YOU.
The conclusive comments you made at the end were quite moving, thank you for finishing off this dissectment of poor science with a blunt telling off for even poorer social science from Peterson.
Thank you for your generosity with your knowledge. I so appreciate accomplished professionals freely sharing complex information. It is so needed to add to the discourse. A much needed balance 🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🫶🫶🫶🫶🫶🫶🫶🫶
Thanks for putting the extra effort into a more informational version of your previous popular video, even though I'm sure it will get you fewer views for your effort; that's the nature of the algorithm, I suppose.
Not necessarily. Also depends on the comments.
Absolutely love the ending ❤
Thank you Professor!
Thank you for your expert response to an opinion that is in great danger of misguiding millions of people
Thank you for this.
Dr Barkley you are a true champion. For all you do for so many. Thankyou
Thank you for the clear presentation of the claims made by Dr. Peterson (based on the ideas by Dr. Panksepp), the argumentative holes in them, the missing evidence for them, and the various evidence against them. Making these claims in the wider public, as Dr. Peterson did, and implying they are true and supported by science, is scientifically irresponsible.
The situation is difficult enough for people with ADHD. People with ADHD and the public in general need a clear view of the actual scientific results.
I think I said it in response to your previous video on Peterson, but he seems to produce many of his opinions using conservative political ideology rather than genuine scientific research. There are lots of parallels between conservative ideology regarding the degradation of parenting/society/schooling and the idea that ADHD is caused by parenting/society/schooling.
At the very least it's not the other popular and damaging route, in which conservatives deny the existence of ADHD (and other disorders of the brain), perhaps going as far as to suggest the existence of academic conspiracies with the aim of promoting pharmacological treatments. Although I fear that would be the evolution of Peterson's ideas if he encounters these solid refutations.
Thanks Dr Barkley
Yes Doc! Overturn the stigma!
absolutely amazing how genetic ADHD is. i would love to get my profile of this. fascinating.
Someone needs to tell Peterson boys with adhd...all we did was rough and tumble play...that was HARDLY our problem lol.
Thank you so much for highlighting how these "celebrities" (there are a few of them) may have abandoned science to instead share what is a more popular view in the public. It is so helpful to have an expert go head to head here in an accessible way to deconstruct their arguments. I worry that some of these "celebrity experts" put their popularity before the wellbeing of those their falsehoods may harm (popularity over accuracy). Thank you also for raising awareness about this mother blaming. I also noticed Gabor Mate do this in his most recent book and promotional talks around it..a lot of woman blaming for their ill health and bad luck. The strains of sexism run so deep that these men/speakers may not be aware of how it is influencing their thinking. As a clinical counsellor I have also sat through trauma training workshops where they tell us that ADHD is caused by trauma. There is no accountability for these falsehoods--and the natural extension is that treating the person with ample love etc will heal. This is so incredibly false. Thank you for you great work!
I feel like starting a channel that claims aspergers is just psychopathy and they're all lying lol....imagine the blowback!! :)
I have experienced the symptoms of ADHD since childhood. My daughter and I were both diagnosed with ADHD. In addition to being diagnosed with ADHD, I recently found that I was pre-diabetic and my whole life I have had low HDL. I was advised by my daughter's neurologist to have Mandy start taking folate and continue taking magnesium. We are taking Solgar folate. I just received a call from my primary care doctor at 6:00 p.m. saying that my blood sugar levels had improved and my hdl was up. He said I must have been taking my metformin and concentrating on my diet and exercise but that is not the case. I stopped taking the metformin when I started the folate and magnesium because I had read the might not go well together. I had tested positive for having a low level of anxiety when I had been tested for ADHD. My anxiety has resolved. My concentration is better. My mood is improved. My energy is improved. I have less food cravings and I feel the ones I do have are manageable. I feel like my circadian rhythm is improper synch with the sun where before I would not become tired until about 1-3am and would have huge crashes in energy depending on when I ate.
Hello Dr.Barkely! Could you do a video on APD and ADHD? As I understand they do correlate somewhat.
Mr Barkley, could I ask for your opinion over the inattentive type of ADHD . My question stems from reading a critical comment made on your previous video on the Petterson subject, which said that perhaps you do not quite recognise the inattentive type of ADHD to the same extend as the combined/hyperactive type.
28:25 - as a mother. Thank you!
Yep. Psych 101...basic twin studies is introduced and the methodology is deep and very sound. It's well established science that forms the basis of a very large amount of studies for decades and decades which has already undergone rigorous scientific vetto g and critique. It's always important to ask questions, but one CZcams commenter making a statement off the top of their head is not going to suddenly come up with a criticism of twin studies that calls into question the entire field of research involving twins.
So glad you are doing this, I am not a fan of JP nor anyone who uses him as a reference material
thank you Dr russel barkley for This video ; i understand the brain activity of me now better than before👍
Thanks!
*stands up and claps* thank you so much!
Be great to see you two do a podcast! (His or yours)
Peterson also said couple of years ago in an interview, he wondered if being trans is related to having a lack of play opportunities as a child...
And anyway, I thought the nature versus nurture was sorted out decades ago. We know that genetic abnormalities happen. They are there from conception and there when xhid is born. How the child then develops, once born, will of course vary according to environment. But the genetic studies are good data. No one disputes that later environmental conditions will then act on the development of behaviour patterns. But the adhd is there at the start.
I want to study this. And have begun a college course to prepare for entry to university as a mature student. But I admit I'm having terrible difficulty. The adhd is difficult, but the trauma I've accrued over my life is making it exponentially more difficult. I'd really appreciate a bit of advice if anyone has the time.
Please may I request you do shorts of the main messages it’s hard to focus for so long, please and thank you. 🙂
Hey doc, can you do a lecture on adhd impairing object permanence?
Ohhh do Andrew Huberman next!
Why him?
I have ADHD which I believe was caused by a nuchal chord I think it’s called. I was born blue and was never diagnosed as a child but showed clear signs it just wasn’t well known where I’m from. Can’t say for sure it’s the nuchal chord but I’m sure that amount of asphyxiation could cause neurological disorders.
Anecdotally, people I know who have a clinical diagnosis of ADHD were free to rough and tumble play, climb trees, roam in acres of grass and forest. Even at school they had massive grounds where they were supervised, but basically just had to respect each other.
More views why? Because your prior video was "argumentative," and people
1. love that arguing, and
2. the algorithm gives more weight to negative stuff, and that generates more clicks.
Your video echoed my own opinion of Peterson's ridiculous claim. Still, glad you are putting this video out.
The dog study was small and was not replicated, anyway. He knew it was meaningless. Something has always been wrong with Peterson, from his early days.
Jordan Peterson suggests that IQ can influence job suitability, with some roles benefiting from higher cognitive abilities. However, job success is multifaceted, involving various factors beyond IQ, such as education, experience, and personality traits. What is your opinion?
Excellent video. For anyone listening and short of time, the meat of the video starts around 20 minutes in
I would absolutely love to see a discussion around this topic between yourself and Dr Peterson. I think it's important to highlight that nobody is infallible. I am a huge fan of his work, but I won't blindly defend someone just because I like them. I'd rather see a constructive debate between the two of you - that's where we learn the very most. Great stuff, Dr Barkley
What would be the point of such a discussion? If JP wants to contribute to the debate on ADHD he can do some actual research and present his results so we can discuss them. Just discussing an „opinion“ that’s not based on anything is a waste of time.
Much rather, JPs remarks on ADHD should make you question the reliability of some of the other stuff he says. It certainly made me do so and that’s a good thing.
@@VogMasu I'd kind of like to see what he has to say for himself and whether he'd have the humility to stand corrected. Like I said, I won't blindly defend someone just because I like them.
@@laiky4373I understand the feeling. I’ve read JP and found that many things he writes make a lot of sense and are quite helpful.
However, with regard to ADHD, I believe we need to understand that he is not actually really talking about ADHD and is not really interested in it. The point he is trying to make is: „there is a natural dominance hierarchy built into humans and every cultural attempt to disrupt or alter this structure will result in suffering and chaos.“
He is just (ab)using ADHD to further support this theory and that, in my view, makes any meaningful discussion impossible.
@@VogMasu To be quite honest with you, I was initially interpreting what he was saying as there being an overdiagnosis of ADHD in kids who do not have it, and symptoms arise as a result of not being able to expend enough energy throughout the day. So I actually totally agree with you there, that it doesn't seem to really be about ADHD. However, he really needs to clarify if it is the case, because it does sound like he is misrepresenting it big time, which is harmful
@@laiky4373Jordan was playing to his predominantly religious audience when he said that. Any video between JP & Barkley would be Russ educating Peterson & Peterson inevitably interjecting with unrelated info on the topic.
Fun word search relating to our host:
By any definition a _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _.
-a person who vigorously supports or defends a person or cause.
-one that does battle for another's rights or honor
-a person who enthusiastically supports, defends, or fights for a person, belief, right, or principle
Altruistic
Advocate
@@annak29definitely relevant, but not the word I was thinking.
Clue: it has 8 letters
(If you need another clue just tell me)
Champion
@@nancyx5that’s it! 🎉
Now it’s very clear why JP was stripped of title. I actually felt a little sorry for him until now, only hearing his side of things through the random clips that pop up on social media. I wish scientific discourse was more popular, instead of just hot takes.
Okay. I think I have the possible explanation why he got stuck with the rats.
The thing is. It looks like he was following a lot of those play studies and what was recently found - those rough plays in rats are not about just domination. In those experiments if the strongest rat would win more than 3/4 of those plays - the weakest one would stop inviting to the play. Which leads to strongest one intentionly giving up from time to time. Which is way closer to the way humans treat fair play(no-one would consider losing every time interesting) and its way more advanced that "strongest rat wins and establishes hierarchy".
That being said. It has little to do with adhd so it's just the case when he applies the knowledge from the area he is up to time(play/dominance in rats and mammals) to the area he is not(adhd). Boooo for that.
Yeah I agree with you that rats social systems and play are way more complex than just establishing a hierarchy through simulated combat.
I personally have pet rats and observe very diverse and nuanced social behaviours. The same rats that tend to play fight will also lead each other around and show each other new things (one found a way inside the couch and deliberately went and coaxed another to follow them to show them how they got in). They seem to compete non combatively, trying to climb to the highest location the fastest. Some of them share food, taking pieces of pasta and giving them to their companions and only themselves eating once all other rats have them, and others will grab food and sneak off to a private place to eat. These behaviours exist equally both in "dominant" rats who tend to be bigger and win more fights, and less successful rats. Smaller rats, literally half the weight, may fight and win much more often than bigger rats that could clearly win if they tried. Sometimes the larger rats seem like they are handicapping themselves by not trying too hard to give a fair game.
All these things are totally unrelated to ADHD, and my one rat who is much more hyperactive and impulsive than the others has also had the most play fighting since they were very young. I think Peterson's reasoning is poor, and evidence in rats is a poor and inaccurate reflection of human ADHD, but we don't need to make the case that rats have rudimentary and alien social behaviours to point that out.
It would be interesting to see you two have a conversation about ADHD. To me, it just seems like he needs more exposure and education in this specialty. You would be amazed at the amount of psychiatric doctors and psychologists that are misinformed about ADHD.
Good video, as the last one was. The YoutTube algorithm loves spicy takes and mentions of controversial figures. Peterson is one of those talking heads that gets lots of clicks by being provocative. I think he bases his arguments more on what he thinks will get a reaction than what he actually believes.
I like these debunking videos because they are educational but it is possible to get pulled down into the social media muck if you take some of the comments too seriously.
Also, "Case closed, Jordan" sounded so amusingly incisive at 1.75 speed, lol. That dude hasn't read a research paper on this topic in years, I bet. He just says things off the cuff based on decades-old recollection.
I've been a female for 51 years. I have had ADHD for 51 years. I have always been physically very (dancer/dance teacher/professional aerialist etc) active. No matter how active, I still have ADHD. It gets worse with low activity (deeper internalisation) But either way it is still always there. Diagnosed 3 weeks ago after a lifetime of misinformation, misdiagnosis, and hopeless psychologists. If you meet me and get to know me, it is so bleeding obvious. Jordan can go jump.
I had plenty of rough and tumble play in my youth and it I have some serious level ADHD in my 40s. Let's also be honest, love Peterson but he loves to speak about things he knows little about with great conviction.
Peterson tends to miss on most of what he talks about. Including religion.
Oh no, there’s more to this.they’re always blaming the mother we used to play outside from morning till night had to come in when the street lights came on It’s unfortunate that a lot of ADHD adults feel they didn’t either apply themselves or that they somehow were to blame because they were taught that it’s them instead of inherited .
This is like Mike Tyson in his hayday vs some CZcams boxer.
I like pissed off Russ 😊
He's never angry, just disappointed. It's so much worse! haha!
Deliciously schooled. 💙
I believe the question that sparked his response, which you initially responded to actually came from a young woman, presented in an interview to JP, so the fact he immediately ignored that, and went into a tirade about boys is very telling. And he’s not entirely wrong about boys, but he used that to dominate the conversation, using a strawman fallacy and a false equivalence fallacy.
Also as a child, I had lots of play! But I had it AS a child. I didn’t get it after
I did not hear Jordan Peterson mention rats....rats! I have been a teacher and coach since graduating college, for over 14 years I coached youth sports and I could not have agreed with Jordan more than on this topic, my first hand observation of student athlete success stories would point to no other hypothesis, Children do not play organized "coached" "team" sports enough, the more play time children get more social they become the fruits are too numerous to mention or refute, so I refute your refute completely. No public school student should not go thru the system without having experience playing on a "team" at any level. Its all good.
There is a huge gap between Peterson claiming lack of play causes ADHD and your assertion that Dr B is claiming children shouldn’t play.
Dr B never says that in this or any other video.
It can simultaneously be true that children should have more opportunities to play sports AND that lack of sports isn’t the cause of ADHD. These aren’t mutually exclusive.
I doubt you think kids not playing sports is also the cause of other entirely unrelated disorders, like leukemia.
Nothing in this video is advocating against children playing. It’s only showing the data that proves the quantity of physical play a child experiences neither causes nor protects against ADHD-the two are simply unrelated.
In fact, Dr B supports play and exercise, he even notes that in children who do have ADHD, exercise can help lessen the severity of symptoms.
It’s amazing that so much is being discussed and made public, but there’s no critical discourse about the discourse, aside from niche philosophers, or even “popular” philosophers…which is obviously unpopular my any meaningful metric. The understanding of heuristics, logic, hyperbole, rhetoric is lost, by shear lack of exposure. We all rely on gut feeling about things, which is an immensely important survival tactic, but utterly (or more apropos gut-erally) intractable position to stand upon.
So my question is in which field JP is an expert?
He's an expert in JP and that's about it.
@russelbarkleyphd2023 Hi Dr. Barkley, your videos are immensely helpful to me in raising my daughter. As a clinician and parent to an ADHD child, I am very disheartened and angered to learn about leading clinicians providing completely inaccurate information to the public about ADHD, further stigmatizing and delegitimizing the disorder. Can you please make a video refuting the claims on ADHD Dr. Gabor Mate made recently? Thank you and sending regards from Los Angeles!
Sadly, Jordan subscribes to the Gabor Mate ideology. And a lot of ADHD coaches rather believe this type of stuff and think there is a cure, then accept that brains get a li'l funky
I thought Gabor medicated his ADHD? Although he is right about early trauma potentially aggravating problems with memory and behaviour change, he over steps/overstates the case quite a bit but I wouldn’t have put him in the same space as Peterson.
@ButterflyonStone he doesn't. In fact he believes medication is terrible. He believes society caused ADHD or past trauma causes it.
@@DaxPegels I've read his book and I'm flicking through now to check - and right on p. 28 he states ' environment does not cause ADD any more than genes cause ADD. What happens is that if certain genetic material meets a certain environment ADD may result'. I mean the back of the book states it to be impairment and developmental delay though I'm not sure I'd agree with the use of the word reversible - Certainly not as far-fetched as Peterson, and true of a lot of the literature that a lot of NDCs are multifactorial in nature (can include environmental factors and can be worsened by environmental factors - not just emotional stuff either). I'm also sure he mentions that he and his children use medication to manage their own ADD or have done - I'm sure he mentioned using it to write one of his books, so it would seem he is not so much anti-medication as much as anti-medication being sold as the only factor that will help in all cases. I do agree he oversells his points on attachment theory (which definitely has flaws) but he's not as off the charts as not enough play = ADHD, he certainly makes more useful suggestions around supporting and reassuring parents. I can link a video that talks about medication - highlights the problem with the serotonin hypothesis in relation to depression (which there is research debunking) and then goes on to state the purpose and use of medication that it can be helpful - czcams.com/video/y0gy5fMW0Zw/video.html
Dr. Barkley, can you address how you still support exercise to temper the effects of ADHD, even with rightful criticism of the idea that lack of play is the reason for ADHD? I'm looking at your current edition of Taking Charge of Adult ADHD, which mentions it a few times.
But yeah - Bettleheim - it turns out his only actual expertise was in suicide. Love is not enough, indeed.
It's really pretty simple. From how my doctor described it, aerobic exercise calms down the brain, and for us with ADHD, that brain is running like 800 mph. So you have to slow it down, and a good way is exercise.
Not only that, but he has talked about the self-motivational fuel tank before. Basically, the idea is is that as you go about the day, you use executive functions, and you need to refill that tank. Exercise helps to refill it, and makes the tank a bit larger.
Basically, the idea is that before you engage in something that's large project, he suggests to go outside and walk for a bit, and then come back to it.
In his video on how adhd causes impairment, he also notes that adhd is tightly connected with sleep disorders. This is relevant because physical activity is one of the primary interventions to improve sleep.
ADHD disrupts sleep -> lack of sleep further erodes executive function -> feedback loop.
Increase physical activity improves sleep -> lessens adhd’s impact on sleep -> lessens the negative loop of adhd and sleep disruption.
He doesn’t say that’s the only mechanism, just that it is one. This is also consistent with lessening but not entirely removing adhd severity.
Tell em Russ! 💪
👏 👏 👏
"Nonsense on stilts" 😂 such a perfect description.
WARNING: LONG WINDED COMMENT FORTH COMING!
I grew up with 2 older brothers and 5 cousins. All of us were born within 5 years of one another. We were thick as thieves, 3 girls and 5 boys. Our moms were twin sisters, both I suspect have ADHD. Now, we played “war”, “wrestling”, recreated t.v. Game shows such as The Dating Game, Beat the Clock, Jokers Wild, pretended to be cooks and had to create recipes, went swimming, and explored in the woods.On a perfect day we might find a mud hole, put on rubber boots and then, with our feet cemented in the mud, would try to take down the others. Pulled couch cushions off and use them as armour to crash into one another. On a sunny day we’d sprinkle Tide on the drive way and pretend the suds were an alien life form needing to be washed away. We weren’t trying to establish dominance. We were having fun and were always empathetic and caring if someone was hurt, helped if someone was struggling, and kind when we went too far. Well, most often, most times LOL. In any event, we always made amends at the end of the day.
I have ADHD, and suspect 1 brother and 2 of my cousins of having it. Again, both our mothers, twins, seem to have strong signs of ADHD as well., 2 of us kids are girls. Out of us 8 kids, the four suspected/diagnosed with ADHD have had police issues, drug issues, learning issues, anger issues, etc. The other four went to post secondary education, have had fantastic jobs, stable relationships, and interact with others quite well. Hmm? What’s the connection?
When young, we had nothing but opportunity to roughhouse, play, have social connection etc. In fact, our parents were often exasperated by our rambunctiousness BUT they also didn’t or couldn’t reign it in because they were also struggling with the same issues but in adult form. Point is, even if poorly made, our family is the perfect counter argument against J.P.’s thoughts on ADHD. He seems to need to appear as an expert on everything.
Thank you a million times Dr. Barkley for standing up for those of us with ADHD, the research and, the EVIDENCE!
Sir, fellow MD here. Your legendary lectures on ADHD change lives for the better. Dr. Peterson's false claims will undoubtedly do harm in the long run and it seems like he is totally unaware of conceqences of his actions. He probably doesn't mean to do harm, but he should know better. Having such a huge platform and using it so frivolously is unresponsable. It is disheartening hearing him say those inaccurate things so effortlessly. And I believe he is a big advocate for taking responsibility for your words and actions? I wonder if he will? Ofcourse not. We don't live in a world like that. But luckily, we live in a world where people like you exist, a responsible scientist and critical thinker who wouldn't make such confindent claims about something you aren't expert in, especially knowing how many people are listening. Not saying he generally doesn't care, he is allowed to have an opinion. But this concrete stuff he is saying is absolute misinformation. I wish you two, and scientists in general, would somehow communicate more effectively so that these kind of stuff doesn't even happen. It's kind of pitty you need to make videos like this. Thank you for speaking out, nevertheless.
You are a developed country. Dont follow the track of a developing country
Twin studies alone... imagine if jp tried to be a student in Dr. Barkley's clinic or class and tried to posit his hypothesis.
Thank you for refuting the misinformation pushed by a non-expert celebrity who happened to be of a high status. I'm the mother of an ADHD boy and I know that he never lacked opportunities to play.
Love your work. I also know Jordan is playing a different game as a celebrity to what you are. The same way their is a difference between TV chefs and real expeets in their craft, their is a difference when it comes to human science expertise. Jordan has a different job to you as the pulics 'general expert' in human nature. The public responsibility Jordan finds himself in is horrifying
Reposting from part 1.
THANK YOU! I too was infuriated by Jordan Peterson's remarks with regard to ADHD (and several other topics he has covered, including depression). While I was initially impressed by some of his ideas and arguments, I quickly began to recognize his rigid thinking and broad generalizations with regard to the experiences of others and his right wing close-mindedness. With regard to ADHD, he believes that individuals only have difficulty with things they are not interested in, which may be the case for someone with or without ADHD, however what he clearly does not comprehend is that those with ADHD frequently have difficulty attending to those things they are interested in. And when they are very interested in a particular topic, it can make it far more difficult for them to organize all their thoughts and knowledge pertaining to that topic. And yes, the heritability of ADHD is well documented and obvious when you consider the frequency with regard to parents and children with ADHD within a family. Clearly Jordan Peterson has no comprehension of the current DSM criteria for ADHD and the fact that for the past 30 years (at least) we have been well aware that inattentive ADHD exists as well. While medication may not improve performance or make someone smarter, it can help to reduce the exhaustion that would otherwise occur and the time necessary to complete work for those who have ADHD. It can also help to reduce the frustration, anxiety, and depression that often develops when ADHD is left untreated. I just wish "Dr." Peterson would do his homework and remove his ridiculous videos related to ADHD from this platform and all others.
For reference...Jordan Peterson ~ The Reason We Have So Many People With ADHD/ADD - czcams.com/video/kr29BdJ6XlA/video.html
The analysis of the rap analogy is to be seen here: czcams.com/video/AQ2yI0qiHOU/video.htmlfeature=shared