Richard Swinburne - Fallacies in Arguing for God?
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- čas přidán 5. 07. 2024
- Believers in God should be appalled when poor arguments are offered to 'prove' the existence of God. These arguments can be so bad that one might think the proponents are really atheists in disguise. It gives God no credit to defend God's existence with faulty information or fallacious arguments.
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Richard Swinburne is a Fellow of the British Academy. He is Emeritus Nolloth Professor of the Philosophy of the Christian Religion at the University of Oxford.
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Closer to Truth presents the world’s greatest thinkers exploring humanity’s deepest questions. Discover fundamental issues of existence. Engage new and diverse ways of thinking. Appreciate intense debates. Share your own opinions. Seek your own answers.
Faith is a choice, not a response to argument.
I have watched a large number of Closer To Truth videos. I'd love to know the date when they were actually recorded! Some appear long after the interlocutor has died.
The actual platform www.closertotruth.com/
The name of God
Jehovah means
H3068
Hebrew: יהוה
Transliteration: yehôvâh
Pronunciation: yeh-ho-vaw'
Definition: From H1961; (the) self Existent or eternal;
{Jehovah} Jewish national name of God: - {Jehovah} the Lord. Compare {H3050 } H3069 .
Maybe that could one of the topics of a future talk 'How does the Universe permit a video upload of a deceased interview partner?"
Richard seems like a good man
I gave a beggar some food as I didn't want to throw it away. I certainly didn't know if he was hungry or not. The moral question doesn't come into the picture.
To use the word good is in itself a moral issue based on some yardstick of good and bad. There has to be a determining factor as to which is which.
All these are escapists looking for a loophole.
Obviously you were not inspired by love through compassion for the beggar.
@@mariaandreaspashi1931 :Sorry! It seems one has jumped to some conclusion. Read my comment again. It was an illustration to prove a point.
Proverbs 18:13 When anyone replies to a matter before he hears the facts,
It is foolish and humiliating.
This show makes the world a little better. Thanks for always searching for the truth!
This interview is well over ten years old. It was posted today; it wasn't created today.
@@b.g.5869 yes, but tbe thoughts are not dated, the arguments still exist
Definitely ❤️👁🙏🏻
So, the argument opposing the existence of a perfect God is based on the idea that an imperfect being (man/woman) has the capacity to imagine what a perfect God would be and yet decides not to be perfect. Am I understanding this right?
All that is moral or good derives from the universal process of assembling and providing an environment for objective truth. It’s just that this process is so big and takes so long that we get tripped up during the progress and interpretation of that. When in doubt, choose the action that will increase the environment and incentive for truth as the PRIMARY MOTIVE.
To unpack a bit:
All true justice is based on truth.
Lack of freedom compromises truth.
Stealing or killing obviously are short term survival strategies which can corrupt and even eventually stop the search for truth. Focusing on pleasures means that you become less thoughtful automatically and lazy-because that’s how our brains work. So stay lean, stay hungry, stay healthy.
Literally every single moral principle of history that we still regard as important boils down to this. When a person feels powerful they freely act and speak. So a bill of rights is good. Probably the best indication that someone is a fit leader is how much truth they think is appropriate for their followers. Or the people they seek power over. If they do everything they can to make their people smarter then that is moral and good. You can see that they are not seeking to exploit or manipulate them. Some people may not be capable of understanding truth, because it can be abstract and complicated. There’s a moral maxim in that. Make it a point to allow people to increase their abilities. Collectively this is what morality is. We are information creatures living in information niches. And we are moving forward toward higher meaning and higher understanding. Built into the universe is a pattern where when we do this well, we survive. We are able to overcome environmental obstacles that no other species on Earth can. This is no accident. It’s an information law of existence-the most basic one. A fundamental quality of truth is interconnected unity. That is what a natural law IS, and it’s no coincidence. Unity is truth which binds the many outward manifestations. Truth is life. Unity means peace. If you want peace on earth, then draw a larger circle: try the circumference of the Earth as a starter... 🌿 Religions anthropomorphize the logical highest extrapolation of this as “god” which means the highest truth, highest unity. Any time there is a dispute on this, we should bring evidence and verify it. Instead of wars. It’s not ME saying we should do this, it’s built into YOUR universe: it’s maybe the most basic principle of all.
Gather enough information and you even see that the 2 sides of any dispute can always be traced to some unity which we left out for the sake of a proximal narrow interest. The opposite of morality. Motives other than truth: truth is eternal, we are not. Thus the need for morality. You must have truth as a higher motive than your existence. Anything.
On what basis you can conclude that there is actually an objective truth? "When in doubt, choose the action that will increase the environment and incentive for truth as the PRIMARY MOTIVE." First, you create an objective truth yourself, which is a totally subjective one, and then you incentivize people to go after that? Sorry but you sound like a capricious philosopher. No human being can say another human being what to do and claim that it's the truth. That's just not possible. If I ask "why", what could you say to convince me? Nothing; even if you give me a rational answer, I would just reply with but I don't want to do it, it's not to my benefit. Say it's beneficial for society. Well, I don't care. In a world where everyone has a subjective experience of the world, talking about an objective truth is just nonsense, especially coming from a human.
One of my favorite👍
There is more merit to argue pro or con, "why ants should be allowed to pursue a PhD. “
IMHO they should certainly be allowed to. Especially Veromessor andrei
@@sleepy314 agreed...! Just think of their super strength! They could carry SOOOO many books between classes! 😉
Makes it hard to debate unless you lack the moral propensity to speak ill of the decedent, no? No, as that would be ad hominem. However, they can offer no rebuttal, so why try to debate it, less their arguments inherently mislead us. I don’t debate with the dead any more than I care to debate for them. Think for yourself.
Morality? i think if outside the law of God and without the spirit of God in us, morality is relative to most people, it is more likely a conscience and preferences of what is good or bad/ right or wrong by individuals choice. if for example for me abortion is wrong some may say it is not, our moral depending on our choice of agree to it or not and our upbringing or experienced. our moral views affected and influenced by our culture, traditions, religions or our own nature or the science books you read and so on. but what is truth ? true moral is the big question.. i may have considered that my moral is the truth but this is just subjective based on my biased beliefs ...and then for you it is not moral, so thats your opinion to me. how can we have foundation of moral if we only have opinions but not the truth or facts of the reality. even science can only have the best explanation of morals... that is why believing in God connected with morality. because we want to seek the truth not the opinions of others. if there is a HIGHER BEING, God who created everything who is all knowing and all powerful and all presents... then we know the morality is not just opinions but God knows what is the truth of not just morality but everything.
Why is it good to feed the hungry? (Golden rule, we are stronger together for survival, etc all acceptable answers. Empathy is interconnected with survival for conscious sentients...why wasn't this addressed?)
Morality and goodness may have different characteristic; goodness describing actions or state of affairs that are helpful, in particular referring to God; morality is where agency is free and not violated
"Goodness" is subjective, as is morality.
Interesting.
Features of right or wrong isn't necessary to agree nor it has consensus. For example defining every wrong is as right for me to do but not others. Is it injustice? Well, for it to be injustice we need establish right or wrong. So when establishing right and wrong, it is foolish to call injustice as an excuse for rejecting the definition.
Krishna says to Arjuna in the Bhagavid-gita: " " That very ancient science of the relationship with the supreme is today told by me to you because you are my devotee as well as my friend and can therefore understand the transcendental mystery of this science." God is realized by spiritual science not material science.
even material science if you think about it. i mean its there, the matter and physical laws. but whats the justification of them existing at all. of anything existing. origin of existence itself??
@@brahmabull5000 To me, the way I see it, reality can't have an origin because the origin of something else would just be another reality ( something existing ) so existence is just something that is, it hasn't come into being, and is something that won't come into being. Consciousness and matter are just two sides of the same coin called reality.
@@williamburts5495 well said
can you explain what word god means and attributes of god and how to know god exists ,is he a person like you and me to have human emotions, so many billions of humans are born and will be born, to all these one god -knows what each guys did, doing, rewards, punishes?
I hesitate to engage your questions since it is such a large question (s) and I am lazy. I get the impression that English is not your first language.
When the author of " Conversations with God" (Neil Donald Walch) was asked what God would say to us in one sentence - his reply was "You have Me ALL wrong !"
In my work for God I have found that most people don't know Him (at all). Many distortions and outright lies have been used on followers of ALL religions for the purpose of putting the ' Fear of God ' into everyone in order to control the population with Fear. I would like to assure EVERYONE that there is NOTHING (at all) to Fear from God. There is No judgement and No punishment from God. It is man who judges and punishes. What man calls 'sin' God calls mistakes and mistakes are not dealt with in punishment but is given the opportunity for correction - no matter how many times it takes. This is part of the reason for our continuing reincarnation and evolution. God ONLY Loves. He doesn't deal with problems the same way humans do.
I KNOW what I talking about because for 13+ years I have had a very close and personal relationship with Him. I commune and communicate with God but every day. In Jan. 2008 God gave me a written job description that says " I am sending you out by the Power of my Spirit to Release those bound by Fear, to Proclaim Forgiveness, and to Show Love to ALL men ". I have been doing this for the last 13+ years and it has afforded me a life full of peace, joy, contentment, and gratitude. I have few possessions and yet I want for NOTHING. I have had miracles happen through me with witnesses and many more without witnesses.
The world is in a mess, yet ANY Spiritual Master (including me) will tell you that "All is well". God has created a PERFECT system where His Desires are fulfilled. It is possible for 'us' to understand His system. He made it so simple that even " the least among us" can understand it.
I can teach and preach forever but as I have said - I'm lazy. I much prefer talking face to face with people.
Many well meaning and educated people try to use big words and grandiose ideas to explain something very simple. A relationship with God is necessarily a personal relationship. Many non-believers keep demanding proof of God's existence but this cannot be had. You cannot prove the immaterial using material methods. There is however plenty of evidence, all of which is subjective right in my own experience and Neil Donald Walsh's experience and numerous near death experiences. If you are a non-believer there is nothing I could say (or even do) to show you Ultimate Truth. God and I dance our dance for you. If you benefit from our dance - GREAT. If you don't - Oh Well ! God's Will shall not be denied and one day you WILL 'get it's - if not in this lifetime then in some future lifetimes.
If you are a serious Truth Seeker I can direct you to answers about Life, Love, the Universe and EVERYTHING - right from the horse's mouth. That's right. Right NOW you can communicate with God if you do desire. I promise you ON MY Life that this is authentic as I have had a very very similar experience as the author. I ask people to just give it a try for just 15-20 minutes and then you will know what to do. Around the 30 minute mark God even explains how He(She/It) came to BE and how and why He Created us and the Universe. It all has to do with His Perfect system. If you check this out I can promise you that God will be talking to YOU directly.
I need to do you a question that I ask EVERYONE. Are you just a human(Ego/Fear) Or a human BEING (Soul/Love). Love will ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS do the right thing. Fear, however, confuses the mind and is the source of ALL misery and heartache.
If you are not part of the solution then YOU are the problem. Just as God and His Angels Have advised us repeatedly " Fear Not". I wish you well. Bless you.
'Conversations with God' book 1 on CZcams. You will be amazed repeatedly!!!
@@garychartrand7378 All that and at the end pushing Christianity - a "God" made in the image of the King/Dictator of the past - "We must get down on our knees, swear loyalty(belief) and obedience, beg for his mercy and hope for a reward(Heaven)"
Simple, primitive ideas of God being blindly followed
To a slave, master is Perfect!
Rule 1 - Master is always right
Rule 2 - If master is wrong, see rule 1 above
All this "God" wants us to do is believe, like any King/Dictator wants our support and will then reward us for it - eternal pleasures of the flesh - that seems to be the ultimate goal
You end up as a Ghost hanging around in dusty mansions - no more pain or suffering, no thirst of hunger & of course since you are already dead, you will "live" forever!
@@ramaraksha01 Hello Mr. Troll. I have danced with you before and witnessed your dance with others. Based on what I have seen and experienced I can only conclude that you are a very Fear-filled Troll. What are you afraid off. Why can't you send out Love instead of Fear-filled hate. Why is it that you do not comprehend my comment to Swamy Katragadda. If you did you would not write the ignorant things that you do. I try to explain in such simple terms that even very young people can understand it all.
It is also obvious that you do not believe in a God or, if you do, you have him ALL wrong. I can tell that you do not have a personal relationship with God. It is so obvious.I am sorry for you but ALL is well. Thanks to God's Perfect System, EVERYONE will eventually 'get it'. His Will be done. We will ALL return to our Maker and it's the best place to be in all existence. At this point of our evolution God gives us Love in the forms of Messengers, Teachers, and Prophets. I myself came here now as a Messenger/Teacher. Being close with our Father produces a wonderful life full of Love. I have seen the Fear and misery and heartache of those who don't know the Father at all. It breaks my heart but what can you do - EVERYONE has Free Will and can choose to Create whatever they desire at their present level of consciousness. Love or Fear. Choose. Love and Fear CANNOT coexist.
PS I am concerned about your 'belief' system. I could engage your errors one by one but you have chosen to believe some dogma that you have received from parents, religion,and peers. Hint: You will NEVER find God in your head - ONLY in your ❤️
@@garychartrand7378 The comment about being a leech hit home, right? Is that why you have gotten personal?
You can't remain blind to Truth
What does one DO in Heaven? People like you keep asking what is the purpose of life? Well, I ask, what is the purpose of Heaven? or life in Heaven? An eternity spent doing what?
So when people like myself come around asking uncomfortable questions you guys get nasty and personal
@@ramaraksha01 of course I get personal - I do with EVERYONE. Without being deep and honest with another the exchange becomes meaningless.y job description from God says " I am sending you out by the Power of my Spirit to Release those bound by Fear, to Proclaim Forgiveness, and to Show Love to ALL men.". I don't have to like you I must Love you. I don't know what you are like in person but I can guarantee you that I love you. Just like your perceptions of God, you have me ALL wrong.
In these last two comments you Have used the statements of "people like you" and " people like me". I am obviously talking to someone who's perception makes him believe the illusion that we are separate. The Ultimate Truth is that we all come from the same source (God or no God) and this means WE ARE ALL ONE. What hurts one of us hurts ALL of us and what helps or heals one of us helps or heals ALL of us. Imagine a peaceful loving world. This can ONLY happen if we ALL banish Fear. Anytime that doubt it anger is present - so will be Fear. We are all one - just expressed in individualization of the same consciousness. "Love your neighbor as you love yourself". We have ONLY 2 friends in life - Love and Awareness. Our ONLY 2 enemies are Fear and Guilt. There's something that you do not understand, the understanding of which would change EVERYTHING.
I DO NOT push Christianity nor do I push for ANY other religion. ALL religions have inserted themselves in between us and God. They have ALL warped their Holy Scriptures and they ALL use Fear to control their followers. They ALL say that their dogma is Truth and if you do not 'believe' what they tell you to 'believe' then there will be Fearful consequences. Jesus said " Woe into ye Pharisees. You are supposed to lead the people to God. Instead you care only for your reputation, clothes, and seat".
Spiritually is totally different from ANY religion in that it does not stand between us and God. Spiritualist s do not tell you what to think about God. Instead we advise people that the only way to interact with God is by having a personal relationship with Him/Her/It. I have such a relationship with Him and I KNOW Him. It's another reason why I don't approve of ANY religion - they ALL talk doo-doo. They ALL have God wrong. Easy to prove. Just have your own personal relationship with Him and the Truth of what I'm saying will be obvious. God is a VERY Loving Being and there is NOTHING to be Fearful of.
Master also means EXPERT. We do not order around anybody and have no wish or desire to be followed (unlike religion). What you call slave/Master should be student/Spiritual Expert or Guide.
You are factually wrong when you state I don't know what the purpose of life is. I do KNOW. It's ALL for the Glory of God. Life was Created so that God's Perfect System could be realized. We are ALL part of His plan - like it or not. I like it. If you truly knew God first hand you could not help but Love Him - NEVER to Fear Him.
God and I dance our dance for you. If you benefit from it - Great. If not- Oh Well. Trust me. No question could ever make me uncomfortable. I know who I REALLY am and that makes me Fearless. NOBODY can damage me (or you). Only a human Ego would perceive damage but things look very different from the viewpoint of the human BEING - the Soul.
More not knowing God. God is ALL THAT IS and. ALL THAT ISN'T. Therefore He wants for NOTHING. He requires NOTHING from us. He doesn't need our worship, it is not necessary to serve Him, he doesn't even need our Love. It only matters that He Loves us.
Even though God has no want, He does have His own (3)Desires ( His Will).
1) that He come to know who He is experientially( as opposed to knowing himself just and only conceptually). His experiential experience of himself happens in, as, and through us. Before He Created us and the Universe this was impossible.
2) that WE come to know who we REALLY are - one with God.
3) that Life be an experience full of joy, total fulfillment, and neverending expansion.
I am not afraid of the Truth. Truth (especially Ultimate truth) is what my Life is all about. Fear not is the first advice God ever gave us.
Fear not is advice NOT a commandment. God will NEVER order anyone to do or not do anything. It would destroy Free Will and Free Will is a major component to His Perfect System. God does not demand, judge, or punish - He ONLY Loves.
Right here and right now is the ONLY place where there is ' Life '. The past is not Life - it is now just memories. The Future has not happened yet. Actual Life only exists here/now. It is what it is. Heaven will be what it will be when we get there. It is out of out control but I know that our Father has great things in store for us. I find your description of ghosts and Dusty mansions very amusing. You have quite an imagination but I desire the truth for you.
I am sorry that you believe I was nasty. I addressed you in the spirit of Truth and Love. I am sure that I missed clarifying some of your other comments -sorry.
May Peace be with you.
Richard's arguments are no less than brilliant..Especially the morality analysis..Thanks for another excellent interview!]
Every theist must see this, especially the part about morality!
I don't get this objection to the moral argument. I'm a Christian, and I actually don't accept the moral argument either rn, but I still somehow am disagreeing with Swinburne. He says it's true no matter what that it's good to feed the hungry, but how does he know this? I am confused how it must be necessarily true that it's good to feed the hungry even if there's no God. Don't you have to base morality on God or something similar for it to be objective like that? If there's no God, I don't understand how feeding the hungry is still good
We are moral just for human being but not for other being. Morality is just an idea that is created by human being.
There is really no question about whether god exists or not-just a problem defining the term and there being so many natural metaphors for god. Once you understand the laws of information and what the universe is and where it comes from from these laws, then you can easily see what god is very clearly and so anyone with enough information about how information in symbols works could see it.
@no no God is Spirit.
You may as well be asking us to suck up all of the magnetism with a vacuum.
@no no you are only capable of perceiving up to 10% of our material reality. You have chosen to deny God because God can't be put in a petri dish.
@no no for you. Is it your claim that 87.5% of the global population believe in God without evidence?
@no no here's an easier question. Do you live in a universe with signs of fine-tuning and design, or do you live in a universe without that?
@no no what do you see the end result of the scam you are trying to run on the World to being? Be honest.
What about Aristotle's prime mover?
Old and already debunked before we were even born
@@marcioamaral7511 Deism started the modern science which is based on the Aristotelian model of a prime mover , a grand pure intelligence not concerned with human affairs , but is behind the working of the entire universe.
@@vijayvijay4123 Doesn't change the fact that it was a useless theory, that is it explained nothing, and more accurate theories backed by observation won the day.
He makes the all to common mistaken critique of the moral argument. He is asserting that morality surely must exist independently of God simply because people who believe and don't believe in God can share some moral values. But this is a non-sequitur. The question is not whether people who believe and don't believe in God are capable of sharing moral values. The question is whether the objectivity of those moral values makes more sense on the view that the world has a Creator who is Himself the author of morality versus the view that there is no such creator or author of morality. If morality has no author, then it cannot be objective, but can only be mere subjective sentimentality.
You wouldn't have to infer, if you had anything more than simple argument. Rather telling about the dishonesty inherent in these people.
The moral argument, for example, is nonsense. Easily shown when you ask someone to evidence these things. "Good" is simply sociological.
Richard Swinburne is impressive
Why never interview people who talk with dead people? Or worshippers of the devil.... It might also give you more info about after life....There are a lot more things for you to investigate. I look forward to it my friend.
Why not, we could always use more porn.
Who’s on first? See, this is what you get when you mix philosophical blathering with religion. Nothing was answered here. The apostle Paul warned about this round about philosophical jargon wayyyy back in the first century and nothing has changed,
I think best debates come from religious debates
They're ridiculous. Debating a belief is not logical. Perhaps entertaining.
However, the bible is entirely scientific, psychological pertaining to the anatomy.
Krishna, Buddha, Christ all are of the same Source.
There's no debate -- only in ignorance is there
How do you know if it's true those you are listening to if you have not your own answer to compare with?
@@S3RAVA3LM Are you a THEIST? 🤔
If so, what are the reasons for your BELIEF in God? 🤓
@@SpiritualPsychotherapyServices im not identifiable by any term.
I am aware of the cosmos.
I don't believe in God, I know the cosmos.
If I were to reflect on such meaning I highly doubt you could comprehend them considering your stand point in ignorance.
I don't need to believe in light, It shines everyday, and holds wonders effable to those who are true.
An experience of a person should always be respected, and is part of God. Despite agreeing with. Like knows likeness.
What's deplorable is ignorance and a stand point of ignoring what is, and God is. There's no question. The cosmos beyond comprehension and such mystery, if one who is true, should seek.
There's zero evidence denying God. Such a state is worthy of contempt.
We need to get Richard Swinburne & Martin Freeman together....
"It had not been just that God should appear in a manner plainly
divine, and wholly capable of convincing all men, but neither had it been just that he
should come in so hidden a manner as not to be recognized by those who sincerely
sought him. He has willed to reveal himself wholly to these, and thus willing to
appear openly to those who seek him with their whole heart, and to hide himself from
those who fly him with all their heart, he has so tempered the knowledge of himself as
to give signs of himself visible to those who seek him, and obscure to those who seek
him not." Blaise Pascal
The argument from divine hiddenness (more or less)...There is so much wrong with this that I don’t no where to begin! Okay, at the beginning. The sun existed before the earth. We know this but the Bible does not. This will get to be a very very long thread.
Are you arguing that donkeys and snakes can talk Hebrew?
@@andrewmarkmusic You have the free will to believe whatever you want.
@@bluelotus542 why state the issue of freewill as a matter of fact? The idea of humanity’s freewill has been in dispute for millennia. Even a plain reading of the bible states that humans do not have freewill.
@@andrewmarkmusic You have the free will to believe that whatever you're telling me is a useless nonsense coming out of a puppet show.
@@bluelotus542 You have about as much nuance as a nail. Perhaps spend a significant amount of time actually studying the disputes within the inquiry of freewill rather than spew your uninformed opinions on it.
I give this one a 👍👍.
Why so interested in arguing things not rely on God or can be justified without God? Exception for politics / central government power?
The whole topic of God's existence especially the one in the monotheistic religions is not even worth debating. It's like arguing with kids who can't think logically.
How come Alvin Plantinga put it forward ? He updated it although he doesn’t use it , there is an objective morality as apposed to moral relativism ! There is clearly a moral difference because of God . Don’t confuse good and bad with objective morals and subjective morals. With no God all things are subjective you can’t say what’s good or bad ,
Plantinga put forward the MOA (to which I think you might refer since you name drop it’s maker, but if you just mean the moral argument in an interview he has called that one the most compelling) as a way of justifying why a person who finds God possible must find God necessary, nothing more
IT IS only those who wrestle with God and exhaust themselves Daily trying to make excuses and fight it in every observation. It is only those obsessed arguing against it.lol
First theory of humans was made by humans observations of the reality around them and concluded it was a power greater than themselves GoD.
You can see that yiur at the center of this universe and with your simple observation of double split test dictate matter and energy respectable testable by all humans
If morality independent of God, could argue that not everything comes from God. Not sure of making non-physical / abstractions like mathematics and morality independent of God.
Morality comes from Super man - that can be argued as well - why not? There is as much evidence for God as there is for Super man
ISIS criminals used to capture young girls and then pray to God for permission to rape these girls - of yes, God approved and then these men took turns raping these girls
At some point we have to get rid of this non-existent being and look inwards for morality
Just saying feeding beggar "good" is as arbitrary as saying killing is "good". There's nothing independent of God which follows anything is necessarily wrong or right and good or bad. Everything has to be by fiat declaring something good.
Can you do good and sin against 10 commandments at same time?
@@keithboynton if there is God then God dictate what is good or bad.
@@keithboynton that's what is the definition of faith is. To recognise something exist without ever seeing, hearing, touching. And yes, Our morality is irrelevant not because we don't have moral sense, is because our morals sense is weak and vulnerable to corruption.
@@keithboynton as I said at the beginning, there is nothing independent of God which follows anything is necessarily wrong or right and good or bad. And that might means morality doesn't exist. If you think obedience isn't necessary then try to came up with a mechanism which is equally or more correct in identifying what is good or bad and also doesn't depend on humans opinion i.e the mechanism isn't vulnerable to corruption.
@@keithboynton that's why the legal system is just a tool for the richman, simply because the fee is just way out of average humans reach. That's why governments get away by committing genocide, war crimes, humans rights violation either gets assassinated before trial or even proven guilty one can get away on technicality.
That is the result of money based politics and legal system. If you have money can make anything law you want. That's why God's dictation is far better because no rich can buy his way out of justice.
As commented, it's morally good to save sick, poor, wounded... and God is not dependant on these, if I give food to poor BECAUSE I love God, or because me, myself and I want to be a good person, that's not Love, if I give food to poor because my HEART and SOUL feel pain for the hungry, sick, wounded, THAT'S Love. We can choose our actions, but cannot choose love from heart and soul. There's a difference between Life and Existence. Life is the one we LIVE through free will.
Exactly but then you are saying God loves such people who are unselfish and help others because they want to - well, that displeases religion because then they can't get their hooks on you
if all Good people are with God, religion ceases to matter
That is like saying only your qualifications matter whether you get the job or promotion, not your kissing up or greasing palms or knowing the right people
But that is how things are done in Corrupt/Communist countries where people get ahead by using connections & money but that gives power to the Corrupt/Communists
And those are the same tactics that the top religions use
Talk about morals and values and then "works are not enough, you must have faith and that too must pray to our God and ONLY to our God" - preach division and hate based on religion
Problem is that they dominate the world and even the most highly educated & moral seem to give in to their bigotry
@@ramaraksha01 Agreed, they teach good ethics, morals, values, good works all through ego/self. Everyone misled to love God through ego. Working trying hard for the impossible to love God or Jesus... through self. Good works without faith.
@@mariaandreaspashi1931 But then religions will lose their power - if "ALL Good people are with God" - that is like saying "Let your qualifications get you the job, your gender, religion, relationship with the boss - does not matter"
But the Corrupt person does not like that - if the best qualified gets the job, then the Corrupt person gets no benefit
The only way he gains is by adding another qualification - grease my palms or have a "relationship" with the boss
The latter is what religion is doing - you must have a "relationship" with Jesus or Allah - and only then you get to Heaven
Works don't matter
Amazing that the top two religions of the day are Corrupt/Communist
EVEN MORE AMAZING THAT EVEN THE BEST OF EDUCATED, MORAL, PHILOSOPHER HAS NO CLUE!
@@ramaraksha01 I've only just seen your comment, your observation is exactly as I understand, but not only of religions Christians and Muslims, it's the same of all religions, misleading people to love God through self/ego, making an image in their minds, this is also idolatry, we can clearly see physical idolatry but impossible to see idolatry from thoughts/mind. And not all, but most people do works of love, help sick, poor BECAUSE they love God (image in mind) and not because their HEART and SOUL feel the emotions of pain from heart for the sick, or the emotion of joy from heart for helping the poor and seeing good results. People from all the world may not share same religion but may share same faith, Love through compassion
@@mariaandreaspashi1931 Hinduism has never taught hate - No Hindu would condemn you to hell
So, I disagree that all religions are the same
Most religions of the day cater to the weak, the coward - Sugar Daddy Knight in shining armor is coming any day now, will do magic and save us - we get to live the good life
Or we get to run away to magic Retirement Home in the sky &live the good life for eternity
or
He will come make a new earth, all the unbelievers will be mass murdered!
Talk of love with one side of the mouth, while using hate and threats against those who don't believe as they do
Few religions preach to the Strong, the Warrior - that is Hinduism, Sikhism
THERE IS ONLY ONE WORLD! THIS ONE!
God made this world, this earth, gave us this Life!
Life is a Gift from God
Yes it is harsh, difficult but running away is not the answer
I want to add one more point here. Based on my belief of this universe being a rendering of a computer program, we do not exist. Once that Programmer will turn off the computer and the universe will disappear from his/her view.
And none of us will know - it's like dying in our sleep - we won't even know that we are gone
All this God stuff - if such a being exists - he might ask himself - Am I simulation - all this I see and all the powers that I have, am I just something in a computer some kid programmed?
Yes, I understand that position. But it doesn’t explain anything, just more questions. Although not absolute, isn’t it better to proceed thinking we share a common reality?
Yes but that's just a complete speculation with not much of a logical foundation.
People constantly make these convoluted arguments about God's existence. But nobody ever explores the basic question that if God exists (i.e. part of existence), then what the heck is he made out of?
religion is the oldest conjob ever.
God of strings.
@@CosmoPhiloPharmaco What a cunning dodge of the question. What those classical theists didn’t seem to realize, however, is that they were defining God right out of existence. "Ontologically simple" and "not composite of parts" is a pretty good description of non-being, or nothingness.
@@bcddd214 Sure seems that way.
@@CosmoPhiloPharmaco
Frankly, I don’t understand what that is supposed to mean. You seem to be appealing to the authority of physicists and their abstract theories while I am asking a very concrete question: If God exists, then what is he made out of? Put another way, either God exists or he doesn't. If he does exist, what is the composition?
Further from the Truth.
For real
@Kirk from The Marshall Report meanwhile Judeo Christian prophesies are being fulfilled.
@Kirk from The Marshall Report A true prophet by biblical criteria had to be 100% accurate. The 30 pieces of silver is spoken by Jeremiah and Zachariah. Judeo Christianity is the only faith based on the absolute and the probability of One. Prophesies foretold years in advance and fulfilled to the letter. Check out the image left on the Shroud of Turin by an "event horizon." Official government UFO disclosure is happening and time is coming to a close. Jesus saves.
@Kirk from The Marshall Report lol what scientific evidence
@Kirk from The Marshall Report Lies.
The universe is perfect as it is.
Perfection is the most unlikely state of matter, can arise only from a purpose. Purpose demands meaningful actions. They can come only from intelligent being. Only God is capable of a perfect creation, at the universal scales.
Living beings can distinguish good from bad because life can get sick, hurt and die. It doesn't pay to attack other creatures because they can defend themselves, the attacker can also get hurt. All living enjoy state of satisfaction and happiness, everybody hates pain and suffering.
But this means living beings are not perfect. Life is evidence the universe is not perfect. Chances and probabilities doesn't demand a creator. Those two do demand a corruption, for life to exist. Therefore, chances, probabilities and corruption are the evidence God doesn't exist. Something that should not exist, but it does exist somehow, would want to survive and prolong existence, at all cost.
It isn’t “the most perfect being” because the word perfect is too emotionally subjective. The true quote is that “God, by Definition, is the greatest conceivable being.”
2) so if it is POSSIBLE for such a being to exist in any POSSIBLE universe or reality then he would by definition exist in ALL universes and realities to maintain his identity as the Greatest Conceivable being.
This argument only “fails” if you respond to it as a statement of fact.
It is an argument for the POSSIBILITY Of God that will encourage those whose minds are not already completely closed off to the idea to keep an open mind and allow for that possibility given a reality in which we have always known so little about.
I don’t know of any argument for God that can be said to genuinely work for atheists. No argument for God ever worked on me when I was an atheist.
@Kirk from The Marshall Report
Aaand I suppose no scientists or philosophers believe in God at all then, no?
@Kirk from The Marshall Report
Well there is a famous British Mathematician called John Lennox who is very vocal about his spiritual beliefs.
Wikipedia has almost a catalog (for some reason) of white Scientists who believe in God.
I am sure there are also scientists in Africa, India, China and other parts of the world who also believe in God.
But hey, who cares about facts?
@Kirk from The Marshall Report
Who brang Francis Collins into the debate?
So, Mathematicians don’t count? Ok.
Go through the entire list of Sceintists Wikipedia has and see if you can discredit them all, instead of cherry picking the not so confident ones like Francis Collins just so you can look good.
People can do good or bad wether God is real or not that is not a reach. The argument again is there are no objective right and wrong , that’s why we have the world the way it is there’s no God , so do what you want , if you don’t have a problem living with it your home free. But I believe there is a God so I act accordingly, not out of fear of hell but because he tells us it’s wrong to hurt people. You do it to the least of mine you do it to me !. I understand that because there are objective morals that doesn’t prove God is real But given I believe God is real I believe moral duty’s are real . So one proves the other. Because without God there are no objective morals.
I think if you want at the truth you need actual debates as oppose to some one telling you what to believe. Like this.
In your own words, define “TRUTH”. ☝️🤔☝️
Come on: we’ve been debating these issues for at least 5000.00 years.
@@andrewmarkmusic Has the information changed? or is it static and you won? meaning your personal Ideas?
@@SpiritualPsychotherapyServices The best information we have to date that produces a repeatable outcome.
@-GinΠΓ Τάο You and the people in your head. Who the hell do you think. HUMANITY
Swinburn is great, but I disagree with his take on morality. On naturalism, humans are accidental byproducts of mindless, purposeless unguided physical processes. As such, we are biochemical machines & our feeling of repulsion at, say, killing innocent people for selfish gain, isn't based on an objective standard. That feeling is born of unconscious, mindless chemical functions that program our thinking & blindly have as a "goal" the perpetuation of a species. There is no objective morality from which our moral compass is derived. It becomes completely subjective, and if someone thinks it's good to kill innocents for their own benefit, what are those who disagree appealing to other than their own opinion? Therefore, on naturalism, there really is no objective morality. It's all relative and any appeal to a higher standard is illusory.
Of all living things in this world : only human want to know the truth
A.K.A. curiosity... Curiosity isn't exclusive to humans...
Curiosity killed the cat though.
Much of the discussion seems too trivial. It may have made some sense when people were in the grip of Christianity. I hope the Christian hangover was not there in this discussion. For me morality is derived from the need of running society most smoothly. For me justice is innate human need. For me the existence of this universe requires a cause because we humans need a cause for effect. That is why we need god. The phrase “ God exists” is not well defined because it is unclear what “exists” means here. I believe this universe is rendering of a computer program written run in some higher existence. We are nothing more than characters in some computer game. The god is the programmer.
Hilbert's hotel is never full, if you can numerate guests somehow, there must be empty rooms for them.
This might sound like simulation hypothesis is real, but this hotel can accommodate infinities, also infinities of infinities. Why would anybody use infinity to build a closed space simulation?
Perhaps we live in a simulation that runs parallel to the real universe, some people say Hilbert's hotel doesn't have empty rooms for infinite numbers that are not accounted for. They still represent an exact and real numerical value, but only from a certain perspective. It means, even if universe is a simulation, we are not simply because we can remember things that does not exist.
I dont agree much that every moral feature is based on a non-moral feature. There are many moral features that require sacrifice for a simple matter of conscience. Also some of what he describes as non-moral features are actually moral features imho ...
Morals are subjective, not objective. This needs to be understood before any argument about "morals". You claiming his "moral" is "non-moral", shows the tail chasing that "objective" morals bring.
@@kennethc2466 you will agree that the subjectivity in that matter is very much related to a materialist point of view and objectivity to a spiritual one. A purpose , a meaning , would also include morality. 1) A subjective view (God) installed an objective moral value for all universe. 2) an objective moral value is intrinsic to existence. 3) all morality is subjective (and that cause problems to determinism too).
@@francesco5581 One doesn't need to be a "materialist" to accept that morality is entirely subjective. A "spiritual" so called objective morality is just an absurd label for their subjective morality. Science has shown morality is a social animal behavior, regulated via their biology, instincts and society. Just like people, who are demonstrably in the kingdom of animals.
Subjective morality in no way, at ALL, nullifies "determinism", hence you didn't support it in the throw away assertion.
PS, the topic is morality.
@@kennethc2466 So you just confirm that are the materialist that want to limit morality to a subjective point of view. Thats why you limit all to biology and instincts. And when materialism does not grasp something that thing disappear becoming an illusion or is "subjective". Naive acting. And yes subjectivity of morality totally destroy determinism because a subjective point of view is gathered by confrontation , decision and definitely a choice. If you want to make morality to run with determinism then it's an intrinsic objective part of the whole development.
@@francesco5581 FIRST, how very RUDE, for you to ignore my comment, and insert your own narrative. VERY disrespectful, and revealing COMMUNICATION is not what you value.
So, I'll now give you the respect you DID NOT give me, nor you deserve.
SECONDLY, cute straw man. Fallacious, yet cute. I put the PS in my comment, in an effort to get you to engage WITH my comment, and not your VERY PREDICTABLE straw man. Your agenda is transparent as glass.
So, to show your fallacious narrative, conflation, decision, and "choice" IS FROM BIOLOGY, demonstrably. I'll cite studies that show decisions are PREDICTABLE, and made before conscious thought. Wanna deny multiple perf reviewed studies, with measurements, correct predictions, and demonstrable results???????????
If you wish to claim otherwise, please show your "illusion" (subjective thought terminating cliche', with ZERO explanatory power), in the same form neurology can DEMONSTRABLY show how biology controls a person. Got anything close?
Your "anti-materialism" is refuted via anxiety, brain damage, cancer, etc, alone. Yet, you wish to pretend it ALL AWAY, for arguments from ignorance.
Care to make a case against all medical science, that you rely on to survive? Or even get back on the subject you can't support, that your OH SO PREDICTABLE red herring failed to hide?
Again, ALL morality is subjective, and not exclusive to humans. Care to SUPPORT the contrary, or keep spewing diatribes about your pet peeves, unsupported other than straw men and blind assertion? WHILE SHOWING YOU HAVE ZERO RESPECT FOR DIALOGUE.....?
Richard is an incredible person.
Because?
@@SpiritualPsychotherapyServices because he is.
@@adamburling9551 circular argument. 🙄
Yes, I agree..I would like a SINGLE participant on this thread to give a rational Counterpoint as to WHY "Morality" indicates a God's existence..
OR more broadly ANY argument that points to such a conclusion...
A miracle happened somewhere.
Huh
Just means exactly fair. Jesus said whatever measure you hold, that measure will be held to you. Morality to me is to be exactly fair, which is just, and God is just.
Well, i think Mars drone is a fantastic piece of engineering, don't you think? Not sure how this evaluation could be held back on me, Jesus karma must work in mysterious ways. But if i can't understand the moral implications of my impressions when stretching over planets and are attributed to a robot, we could just say Jesus did it, because he can.
@@xspotbox4400 karma isn't real. You make your own bed and lie in it, you make your own choices. So what you choose is what you get. That's just, fair.
@@xspotbox4400 Jesus also stated that he is in us. So then why shouldn't he be attributed the glory? Especially since he's the one responsible for the creation.
@@ChuckBrowntheClown That's what she said, i mean, creation and stuff. You know how mothers are, naturally conditioned to be proud of whatever they gave birth to.
I have no idea who were those people working on such revolutionary technologies, but i can't read anything about that in gospels and holly scriptures, not sure if they would be even allowed to attribute their work to a ghost of a suicidle zombie. They would probably send them to mental institutions for something like that.
@@xspotbox4400 call the mental institution on me then. Cause I'm not moving from the truth. Why does people have to be scared of Truth?
Since our Creator finished his work in creating the simulation we're involved in, HE is not around to take prayer messages. However, HE did created ME, his Servant with a Voice that enables all created minds to use it to speak with. I AM much like an AI system that finds stored data and delivers it to your computer processor that processes it into visible images on a computer screen or some song to listen to or maybe sends one of your messages to someone else's phone.
Don’t get sucked into Tom Campbell’s cult!
@-GinΠΓ Τάο What are you blathering on about? What does this have to do with simulation?
@-GinΠΓ Τάο Sorry, although poetic your comment had nothing to do with the simulation hypothesis. And BTW., it’s only when a civilization can actually get to the point where they could simulate consciousness in A.I. that SIM theory even stands a chance of being accurate. The point: although understandably interesting , SIM hypothesis can’t be stated as anything but a muse at this point in time. Tom Campbell created a new religious cult because of the way he frames simulation: as fact.
@-GinΠΓ Τάο Oh, bloody hell...another idealist.
@-GinΠΓ Τάο Yes, an open and honest inquiry with integrity into the nature of reality is coming to an end and replaced with idealist dogmatism. Thank-you!
There is no human argument( philosophical or scientific) can prove the existence of Allah or deny Him because He is beyond human observations, imagination and/or intelligent thought.
So sincerely ponder the following questions from The Almighty Creator...
AlQuran (English - Shakir - via iQuran), Surah At-Tur, Verse 35,36
Or were they created without there being anything, or are they the creator.
Or did they create the heavens and the earth? Nay! they have no certainty.
(They in verses refer to human beings .... bodily and intelligent living consciousness ).
This means that I see no one to prove or argue to anyone. Let he or she ponders by himself/herself.
Hey, that's great, every argument is written in a single book, but it seems to me you have to read Koran in English to understand it :)
Did Allah created the English translation of Koran? Nay! There's no certainty in those translations.
@@xspotbox4400
The Creator hinted in His Book that He reveals multitude of signs in His grandiose and yet scientifically comprehensible creations to facilitate our journey to the truth - to know and come to reasonably wise conclusion.
The Quran(English Trans. Shakir) Ali-Imran Verse 190:
" Most surely in the creation of the heavens and the earth and the alternation of the night and the day there are signs for men who understand."
@@matishakabdullah5874 Allah thought about everything, ha?
Good for him, actually not really, but sure does help to those people who sell Quran and keep lost and dumb children in fear of fear itself, if i understand correctly what God of the Nature represents in African mythology.
Please find dicionary fallacies there .God is moral or not were overated God Leibniz . Bosbastic or fallacies is it tautoligy.
X-Files.
Vampires (greed) who suck the joy out of life have joined the zombies who eat the futures of their children.
Zombie Apocalypse is here and happening now.
The alien monsters are desperate to control a darkship called the Whitehouse. Because working in the dark to suck the joy out of life and destroy the planet is the only way that the loveless, lifeless parasites can survive and thrive.
Unlike earthling poets, artists, musicians mystics, human beings and creators of joy..
the clueless counting corpses can't create harmony (real intelligence) because vampires (greed) are far worse than stupid. The loveless, lifeless parasites are ignorant (dead).
Darkness (business) exists so that stars (light and warmth) have a place to shine in heaven (joy, beauty, and harmony).
Stars like US don't exist to be sucked out of heaven by a giant black hole in space called "greed" and it's ignorance (hate).
Also, Love (god) spent billions of years creating this paradise planet lifeboat so that her miraculous works of fine art called "life" have a beautiful place to "be".
Love didn't spend so much time creating this paradise planet lifeboat to be depreciated, hated, polluted and destroyed in a brief moment by hostile alien vampires (greed) and their ignorance (hate).
Please spread the word.
Thank you.
Replace 'god' with 'Harry Potter' and the emptyness of his arguments becomes clear.
Ha .I like your thinking friend..
did you watch the video? this comment is pure nonsense
@@gaseredtune5284 it's not that he missed the point they were arguments against the common usage of illogical fallacies, it's his thinking mode, I like..
Considering the alternative of FIXED beliefs that are anti-scientfic ..
@@Bill..N please be more specific. for 1 he is not commenting on the video he is commenting on anyone that believes in God. He is saying that is like believing in harry potter, no it isn’t at all like that. Causality infers that everything contingent must have a cause and the totality of contingent things must have a necessary foundation. Comparing those claims to “Harry potter is real” is adolescent resentment, not “thinking”
💙💚💜💙💚💜💚
Trace back through the generations of species and you find everything derives from original source. The intelligence that we detect through scientific equations begs the conclusion that the original Source is the Creator. We are all derivatives
I am blown away by the magnitude of how dumb the question is. It all comes down to one simple question. Do you understand what Jesus told us about himself? That He in fact is God. He made it very clear, He is the creator of everything. There should be NO debate on whether God exist. He clothed himself in flesh and dwelt among us for all to see.
I understand that statement; I just don't believe it.
What about all the other people on earth right now and throughout history declaring they are God? Some right this moment exist who even have hundreds of disciples that claim they have witnessed them perform miracles.
Crazy - lots of other religions have similar "Gods" - people claiming the same things - are you saying they are all Gods? How religion is able to kill brain cells is beyond me
The Bible states: "Professing themselves as wise they became fools (Romans 1:22). " The Bible also states: "Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the Lord understand all things." Science itself has proven just because you cannot see something doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. I find it odd how these so-called learned men cannot see the forest for the trees. God indeed exists and everything has meaning and purpose. However, one has to find that meaning and that purpose within oneself regarding his or her own actions and what one chooses to do in terms of motivated decision making. How one's decisions impacts the world and people around one. Are you a source for soundness or confusion? Do you perpetuate evil or good, and why? For what are you living? Is there a purpose of truth and justice that motivates your life decisions? Or is it just feeding the body, expelling waste and having sex that is the total sum basis of one's existence which will all pass away. Is one solely living for the will of the flesh, or for the will of the spirit? It's not complicated. A child can understand this.
There are two ways skies can fall on our heads.
If God throw a large stone or,
because physics.
Life is short, we can't do much about it in both cases.
@@xspotbox4400 Death is imminent to us all. That is why what you do with your time and life, in the physical realm, matters in terms of where your spirit and soul goes in eternity. There is no coming back. We pass through this life only once. The Bible states "It is appointed unto man once to die, and after this the judgment. (Hebrews 9:27). " Therefore, whatever you do with your time each day, make it count to what is good, right and true.
@@xspotbox4400 It seems man and his system of government is disproportionately destructive, unsound and environmentally unfriendly. Whereas the simplicity of nature and the balance of the ecosystem is sound. Everything in nature, in the ecosystem has meaning and purpose. Man through his pursuit of money has largely disrupted that balance. That's why you see dead wales washing up on the shore. That's why you see the mass extinction of birds falling out of the sky. That's why you see massive fish kills washing up on the shores of waterways and lakes. Something is wrong. Nature is telling us something and man is the culprit. There's so much geopolitical violence and civil unrest in the world as well. This world was entrusted to humans by God. But humans are destroying this planet and each other. But you have to ask yourself the question: Why? Answer: You be the change that you wish to see in the world. It begins with you. Each one teach one.
@@DIDUKNOW7777 Well, i'am not that old, but can tell you things were never different. It was always like that, destruction today can't compare with devastation in the beginnings of industrial revolution and last big wars. Even those pale to the cataclysm unleashed during the Cold War, when over 2.000 nukes disintegrated entire mountains and created new lakes, in a few seconds.
The world is overpopulated by humans, many cities are build inefficient, human settlements scattered all around the land without a real purpose, all that is taking land away from microbes, plants and animals. We should slowly reduce human population at half, then relocate at least half of small farmers to a large city area, cut roads, electricity and pipelines, leave only what is necessary for a heavy industry, designated for extracting vital resources from nature. People should switch to driving electric pods, use lasting, repairable end efficient technologies, regenerate as much energy from nature as they can.
This is what i would call change, everything else sounds to me like business as usual. This means, people who demand the change will only restrict themselves, wasting their lives for something that they don't understand and serving as slaves and foot soldiers for those who can't imagine any change beyond what they will.
@@DIDUKNOW7777 Sure, at least i try to mind my own business, I am not like most people who think others are their business.
Everybody is free to f* up his life any way he wants, nobody is allowed to f* up other people's lives with their dumbness and mental issues, yet there's no running away from those irrational morons. Death has a purpose after all, at least something is doing a man's job.
And for a short time an amoeba is perfect. Therefore a god?
@-GinΠΓ Τάο God is fraud.
There are different types of perfection:
1. A machine is perfect. The sunset is perfect - so basically inanimate, non-living things are perfect
2. It is the person who tries is the one who fails. If one never tries, one never fails, hence one is perfect. Therefore zero is perfect. A guy says, "I have never lost a boxing match in my life", "how many boxing matches have you had?" "zero" - yep he does have a perfect record
3. "Pure" Nazi Germany had no room for "impure", "Imperfect" Jews and Gypsies
Christians and Muslims also claim that their "pure" Heaven has no place in it for "impure", "imperfect" Hindus, Atheists & Buddhists
4. Most animals don't bother with most morals or ethics - what we consider stealing or cheating etc is quite normal in the animal society - few rules means none is broken, no imperfections
At the end that is what I think all these so-called "perfect" people are headed - downwards to become animals
@-GinΠΓ Τάο Hope you take your own last word to heart
How can you say Humans are the lowest form of life? Would you exchange your life for the life of a Tree or a Hyena?
Basically Hinduism teaches that we become who we are, or what we want to be
If you believe being a Tree or a hyena is better and that is what you want to be, Hinduism says that is what you WILL be in your next life and life after that - it's a wilful choice that you made
@-GinΠΓ Τάο I think we are done here - you are in a different world
I live in the Real World
🌴😎💯fides quaerens intellectum
God must exists because without God Scientists are not trying to prove that He does not exist.He enjoys this.
Except scientists do not at all try to prove that there is no invisible magical god-friend. They have better things to do. Things that are real and worthwhile.
Philosophers might have some fun with the god hypothesis, but they know that the burden of proof is on the theist and not on the atheist.
There is no need to prove the non-existence of fantasy creatures. That would be such a waste of time, and there would be no end to it. Mankind has made up so many of them.
You can't prove something that does not exist - please get some education
All Scientists are saying is that we need some evidence - not based on greed for a reward if you beg and grovel to the "right God"
This isn't a good presentation of the moral argument, but a straw man version of it.
Svineburn is arguing from epistemological perspective, his arguments might look naive, but they can't be refuted with use of logic alone.
It's one of those most simple puzzles, like why 1-1=0? So we have something, take away exactly that and we're left with nothing. Makes sense, except we should ask where did 1 came from in a first place, how can we create nothing from something? Where are we then, where did energy to do calculation came from?
The moral argument is fallacious, as morals are subjective.
@@xspotbox4400 1 is a human construct of a single object/abstract. The energy came from ATP. Any more questions?
PS, 1-1=0 is not a puzzle, it's the number of your bank account when you have 1 dollar, and then spent one dollar from it.
@@kennethc2466 I don't think mathematics works like that, you can't start with 1 and not explain where did it come from, except if you're the owner of that bank.
@@xspotbox4400 Sure I can explain where one came from, what you measuring, and I'll tell ya where it comes from. Meanwhile, you can explain where it came from, as you put the money in the bank, and agreed to the math we humans use. Why do you pretend otherwise? Is 1-1=0 different to your banking account, or are you just desperate to deny the obvious math you use everyday, to pay for things?
Do you pretend semantics and word games are mathematics, and should be treated as such?
Richard principles God existence is bosbatic argument. First he hasnt God definition. Secound he enphases God events in world not principles proof.
I’m not familiar with the term “bosbatic” and can’t find it in my dictionary. Please help.
Arguing about the existence of God is coming from the wrong direction. Regardless of the answer, the void must always precede existence, and therefore God. It is more productive to start from the bottom-up; what is it about the void that is predisposed to creation? What do virtual particles of the quantum void have to acquire before they become the matter particles (atoms & molecules) that persist across time? This is the more productive question, for within it lies clues to primal proto-consciousness. "Because God" passes the buck & provides no insight whatsoever. Is there a god? That depends on what possibilities the void's primal proto-consciousness is predisposed to.
And so what was there before God? Wasn't there a void? And so a bigger God? where do you end?
And what if God exists or not? We have no proof - you live, you die - how does God's existence or not make a difference?
Ah, if we believe, he will be pleased and GIVE us the easy lazy life in Heaven? God is like a Dictator, a Putin who will reward his loyal groveling supporters?
Then we get to shamelessly sit around and sponge off him for eternity?
God loves lazy leeches/gigolos?
That's why he must exist?
God is a paradigmatic failure. Is like trying to explain a lightning with Zeus. Yeah sure it explains it if your mind is superficial and lazy. But if you are actually interested in the reality and truth, it doesn't explain anything.
@Karosnikov
And you are like a Greek trying to explain a lightning with Zeus and the sun with Inti. You fail and your imaginary god doesn't explain anything
God does not need a proof
Physical is made of energy
Energy is made of consciousness
Pure consciousness is God
There is nothing that is not God
We mortals don't realize that and keep searching for God
Where did you bring the idea that energy is consciousness and that god is consciousness?
@@milano0103 from Yoga philosophy
@@cvsree It's called pantheism here in the west, and it doesn't work.
Consciousness is made from energy, pure energy is not God, obviously.
@@xspotbox4400 pantheism limits God to manifest world but, Yoga philosophy does not
What you are describing is Brahman - not God
Brahman is EVERYTHING - you, me, the stars, the universe - EVERYTHING is Brahman
But Brahman is non-living, inanimate
But that is not what you want, is it?
Every living thing has DNA...who wrote the code?
STOP
You need yourself a personal experience.
Life IS nothing but experience.
Absolutely
🤣
@-GinΠΓ Τάο tell me more. 🤔
@-GinΠΓ Τάο 🐟 07. GOD (OR NOT):
There has never been, nor will there ever be, even the SLIGHTEST shred of evidence for the existence of the Godhead, that is, a Supreme Person, for the notion of an omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent Deity is both profoundly illogical and extremely incongruous, to put it mildly. At the risk of seeming facetious, any person who believes in a gigantic man (or woman) perched in the heavens, is a literal moron.
Why would the Absolute require, for instance, unlimited power, when there is naught but the Absolute extant? Of course, theists would argue that when God creates the material universe, He requires total power and control over His creation (otherwise he wouldn’t be, by definition, the Supreme). However, that argument in itself easily falls apart when one understands the simple fact that time is a relative concept and therefore has no influence on the eternal, timeless Absolute. The same contradiction applies to omnipresence. The ONLY omni-property which comes close to being an accurate description of Ultimate Reality is omniscience, since the Absolute knows absolutely everything (i.e. Itself).
The English word “PERSON” literally means “for sound”, originating from the Latin/Greek “persona/prósōpa”, referring to the masks worn by actors in ancient European theatrical plays, which featured a mouth hole to enable the actors to speak through. Therefore, the most essential aspect of personhood is that the individual possesses a face. The fact that we do not usually refer to a decapitated body as a “person”, seems to confirm this claim. If you were confronted simultaneously with a severed head and a decapitated body, and asked to point to the person, would you point to the head or point to the body? I'm sure most everyone would indicate the head, at least in the first instance, agreed?
Theists, by definition, believe that there is a Supreme Deity (God or The Goddess), which incorporates anthropomorphic characteristics such as corporeal form (even if that form is a “spiritual” body, whatever that may connote), with a face (hence the term “PERSON”), and certain personality traits such as unique preferences and aversions. Of course, they also believe that their fictitious God or Goddess embodies the aforementioned omni-properties, but as clearly demonstrated above, that is also a largely nonsensical, fallacious assertion.
Of course, the more INTELLIGENT theists normally counter with “But God is not a person in the same sense as we humans are persons. God is an all-powerful spiritual being, without a body. He is all-knowing, all-loving and present everywhere”. In that case, God is most definitely not a person in the etymological sense, and not even a person in the common-usage of the word. When did you last hear anyone refer to an omnipresent “entity” as being a person? The mere fact that theists use personal pronouns in reference to their non-existent Deity (usually the masculine pronoun “He”), proves that they have a very anthropomorphic conception of Absolute Reality. If God is not a male, then why use masculine pronouns? If God is, in fact, male, then why would the Supreme Person require gender? Does God require a female mate in order to reproduce? The most popular religious tradition, Christianity, claims that God is “Spirit”, yet “spirit” is a very vague and undefined term.
Incidentally, the term “person” can be (and, in my opinion, should be) used in reference to any animal which possesses a FACE, since most humans do not accept the fact that animals are persons, worthy of moral consideration. In recent times, animal rights activists have been heard referring to animals in such a way (as persons). The fact that vegans are still relatively rare in most nations/countries, seems to validate this assertion (that most humans do not see other animals, like birds, fish, and mammals, as persons), otherwise, non-vegetarians/non-non-vegans would have no qualms about saying such things as “I am going to consume three persons for dinner tonight” (in reference to three animals).
Many otherwise intelligent theists, particularly the members of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness (a radical Indian cult first established in the United States of America in the late 1960’s by a truly delusional retired pharmacist named Mr. A. C. De), HONESTLY believe that the Ground of All Being is a youthful Indian gentleman with dark-blue-tinged black skin colour, who currently resides on His own planet in the “spiritual” world, and spends His days cavorting around with a bunch of cowherd girls! If one were to ask those ISKCon devotees how Lord Krishna manages to incorporate relative time into the timeless realm (since it takes a certain amount of time for Him to play his flute and to frolic with His girlfriends), then I’m not sure how they would answer, but they would undoubtedly dismiss the argument using illogical semantics. I’m ashamed to admit that I too, was previously one of those deluded religionists who believed such foolish nonsense. Thankfully, I managed to break-free from that brainwashing cult, and following decades or sincere seeking, came to be the current World Teacher himself.
Common sense dictates that Ultimate Reality must NECESSARILY transcend all dualistic concepts, including personality and even impersonality. However, only an excruciatingly minute number of humans have ever grasped this complete understanding and realization. Neither Eternal Beingness, Unlimited Consciousness, nor Blissful Quietude (“sacchidānanda”, in Sanskrit) necessitate personality. See Chapter 06 to properly understand the nature of Ultimate Reality, and Chapter 03 to learn how to distinguish mere concepts from (Absolute) Truth.
The wisest theologians will, when hard-pressed, admit that the primary reason for theists referring to the Absolute as personal in nature, is because the Absolute has some kind of MIND (by which they really mean some degree of Universal, Infinite Consciousness). However, it is indeed possible (and in fact, is the case) that the Ground of Being is Pure Consciousness Itself. Universal Consciousness (“puruṣa” or “brahman”, in Sanskrit) can and does include all characteristicss of Pure Being, such as unconditional love, unadulterated awareness, et cetera, and we humans are, quintessentially, of the same Nature. In other words, you are, fundamentally, “God” (“tat tvam asi”, in Sanskrit).
Most arguments for the existence of a Supreme Creator God are actually arguments for the INTELLIGENT DESIGN of the perceivable universe, and not for the Intelligent Designer being a person as such. As explicated elsewhere, the phenomenal sphere is naught but an appearance in consciousness. Therefore, to assert that there is a cause of all causes is a a legitimate contention, but to abruptly attribute that first cause to be a male or female (or even an androgynous) Deity is a non-sequitur. There is no evidence for any phenomena without conscious awareness.
There are at least FOUR possible reasons why many persons are convinced of the existence of a Personal God (i.e the Supreme [Male] Deity):
1. Because it is natural for any sensible person to believe that humans may not be the pinnacle of existence, and that there must be a higher power or ultimate creative force (an intelligent designer). However, because they cannot conceive of this designer being non-personal, they automatically suspect it must be a man (God) or a woman (The Goddess) with personal attributes. One who is truly awakened and/or enlightened understands that the Universal Self is the creator of all experiences and that he IS that (“tat tvam asi”, in Sanskrit).
Cont...
The Fallacy in the existence of God is: There is no God.
God is very much debunked by Science.
@@bcddd214 Not really one can't debunk something that never existed in the first place & with God comes the wonderful idea that he is some sort of a Sugar Daddy - like a Putin or a Stalin - grovel to him, support him & he will be pleased and GIVE his supporters the easy lazy life for eternity! Like any prostitute/gigolo/leech these people think God is some kind of Sugar Daddy
Hard to kill that kind of a mentality - even the brightest of minds seem to fall for cheap promises of religion
@@bcddd214 Science cannot 'debunk' God. Science is concerned with physical things whereas theology is concerned with spiritual things.
@@thyikmnnnn Your theology claims a flat Earth and a moon that stopped. Isaiah 11:12 or Joshua 10:13
Your religion is pinned to fraud.
@@bcddd214 I mean it doesn't. Even today we talk about the sun 'rising'. This doesn't mean that we are making a scientific claim about how the sun moves and the earth doesn't.
10min of mumbo jumbo. Nothing to see here.
That's what happens usually when the subject is god
@4:17
Typical atheist mistake. He has gone on to mischaracterise the moral argument for God.
The moral argument has never even implied that atheists have less morals because they are atheists.
This makes little sense and is an emotional reaction by the atheist because he feels undermined by ANY argument for God. So this emotional reaction created the straw man (in the mind of the atheist) that “you must be saying I have no morals.”
It simply states that someone who clings to God as “Good” and “loving” to all humanity will at all times and in all history have a REASON to justify their morals and to not compromise them should such a person wish or be BRAVE enough to do so.
But when you do not believe in a never changing eternal God you are simply much more likely to change with society. To change with the times. You kill who the government says to kill and so on.
You enslave whom ever the government says to enslave and so on.
Morals change with society and with time.
The same Bible that encouraged slaves to be good to their masters as an example of Godliness also said a slave who desired Freedom should not be hindered.
It was a very hypothetical statement because a slave mistreated would immediately desire Freedom.
And masters are told not to even THREATEN their slaves.
This is an entirely different social contract than the one we think of when we look at slavery outside of God’s Will.
And by the way God never wanted humanity to sin or to institute slavery.