By far the most comprehensive explanation of it all I’ve ever heard. I’m the guy that’s been riding for 10 years and have never one time made one adjustment other than sag. Can’t wait to get started on what appears to be a journey of discovery. Much thanks from Idaho US. 🍻🏁
Good to see you Terry, as steady as ever Thanks for the clarity in the procedure to reset my suspension Your channel is filled with worthwhile information and your response to the comments are very kind Very best wishes to you and all you care for
No one explained it to me either but think about it. The analogy I gave regarding pushing someone in the small of the back to get the best forward progression......If we were to measure the height from floor to the small of the back and determined that this was the ideal measurement what happens when the next rider is 6 inches shorter? We are no longer pushing in the small of the back and the height needs to be adjusted. Sadly, most people want the answer that is easy rather than the answer that is right. McDonalds aren't the most successful restuarant because they produce the best food. They produce the most convenient food.
Normally we are finding that taller riders will have less than 100mm of sag and run heavier springs. I would suggest you try appr 95-100 and still chase around 35 static. The heavier springs also assist with stabilising movement around the pitch axis adding increased levels of control for taller riders.@@maltewagener7797
Great advice - thanks 👍. I've just bought a new correct weight spring for the shock and I'm rebuilding my 4CS for supermoto - so knowing this theory is great.
This kind of free advice I don’t see much. I spent a lot of time trying to learn about race car suspension and they people with the knowledge don’t seem to share it. Those people are also few and far between. Thank you. This has made a massive difference to how I’m gojng to enjoy my bike, and work on my technique as a rider and socket spinner. You’ve put me 40 years ahead of where I was.
Racecar is a another world my friend ! I say nothing to no ones . Even my helpers dont have ALL the secrets haha ! Motocross is fun and super casual. Poeple talk about anything
Great stuff! "A bump is a bump." 👍 I'm a novice suspension guy about to rebuild the suspension on a DRZ400 that I use for motocamping (mostly paved and gravel side roads). I carry myself plus all my camping gear. I know that it affects the dynamics of everything covered here but would lo e to see a video that talks to the adventure type of suspension tuning.
Great video and technical breakdown. When you mention the Traxx shock not being durable can you elaborate ? Just purchased one and curious to see what I’m in for haha. Cheers
If you have an actual Trax shock with the drop out system, you will find the springs in the clevis can break and require replacement. We have repaired a number of these. Also the shock sent through the swingarm is quite noticable but can be mittigated with a frame mounted bumper from Lanier.
Quick question: Your procedure made perfect sense to me and simple steps! What do you adjust for enduro riders hitting larger logs and bike kicking/bucking after the hit? Through testing many bikes it seemed that ALOT more RB (like 10 clicks stiffer/slower) made improvement (also reducing comp some) does this sound right? Thanks, Jason
Any set up is a compromise. The secret is to have as little compromise as possible. Any impact that sees the centreline of the wheel below the centreline of the obstacle (log) is going to result in a violent forward rotation of the bike. This is best countered through riding technique rather than suspension setup. Quality riders will address the log by kissing the top half of the log with the bottom of the front tyre creating a rearward rotation that helps counter the forward rotation that occurs when the rear makes contact. This means you don't have to compromise 95% of your riding for the 5% of the time you are crossing logs. You do a lot as a tuner. You shouldn't have to solve "inability"......It's ok to tell a rider to lift his game.
Good information as always..! Just one questions, isnt touching the rebound clickers after compression adjustment also gonna mess with our compression settings we found to like befor we started adjusted rebound on most Bike's with traditional midspeed/pistons setups...?
It sure will......There will always be compromises in tuning. The trick is to end up with the least amount of compromise possible. That's what this method will deliver.
Old timer here. And, raced MTB DH for the last 10 years. On DH rigs it's the opposite when it comes to rebound adjusting. You want it more on the slow side. I've since retired from it and now ride a sumo 450. I'm guessing for street/track (pavement) you want slightly slow rebound?
After working with the National Yamaha, Aprilia and Kawasaki Superbike teams as well as International outfits, I can't imagine any scenario where ground tracing becomes improved with slower rebound. Certainly there are times when you dont want the wheel to follow the ground.....Stadium whoops, sand chop etc but for most cases, you simply can't beat grip. As mentioned in the clip....set your rebound a little faster for grip and then dial it back to achieve the best blend of traction and control. Sadly optimum sensation of control does not always align with optimum grip. Having said that....your assessment of what is fast and what is slow may not align with mine and we could well be talking about the point in different terms.
@@shocktreatment5495 Look up Andrextr channel when you have time. He has in depth tutorials on rebound adjustment. (not that you need lessons or anything). His rebound recommendations are on the slow side. But, a happy medium slow. I based my settings on my DH bikes off of his recommendations and, seem to work great. Could be a weight difference and tire size that changes for either sport. But, then I'm not an expert. Thanks for your answer. Cheers mate!
A dh rig, in fact any bicycle is a compromise between how the suspensio reacts to the track and how the suspension reacts to pedal input from the rider. .Moto doesn't have this issue
@@Andy-co6pni know accelerating with an engine also changes suspension, makes it stand up. Related to the reason why following a line on pavement, one is not as fast as the other rider on same line, differences in where they loaded or unloaded the suspension for grip... all other factors being equal.
Why is the rear sag key, isnt the angle of the forks important for a balanced chassis... Why don't we measure the degrees of the forks to ensure it's not too raked out OR steep? These vids are super helpful Terry! (As most youngsters do, you've sprung back from your injury quickly :)
Fork angle is relative to speed. Trials bike = upright fork (low speed) Land speed bike, forks are raked out (high speed) The rear is all important to power and this is key to performance. Once you have this sorted....marry the front to the rear.
I thought raising forks puts more weight on the front and gives more traction. You stated raising forks gives up traction. Can you explain? It hasn’t been my experience.
i really want to know what "averages" they set up the bike for ? i assume its some were between like a 1.75 meter 70 kg to a 1.85 meter 80 kg guy? But that is really not the average person in society, its more like the average "fit person". It would be nice to know what specific body types the different brands actually aim for
Bikes will be developed around a company test rider. This will generally be an ex-racer, 75 - 80kgs. If you are lighter or heavier you just have to accept the fact that there should be a new set of springs in your near future.
If you have an actual Trax shock with the drop out system, you will find the springs in the clevis can break and require replacement. Also the shock sent through the swingarm can be abrupt but can be mittigated with a frame mounted bumper from Lanier.
I also didn't mention the balance front to rear, rear to front with regard to sag. You cannot have the percentage of sag delta vary more than a few percent, other wise the balance is going to improper- which will negatively affect load transfer.. Either way, a very unscientific method, which is okay, but probably not be a good baseline setup for many riders. I guess it also depends on the type of riding,m I.E. MX, easy single track, tech or hard enduro. 🤦♂
Oooh....you said Delta... I guess you will have to look at sag in regards to the entire motorcycle as opposed to just suspension. You can follow the crowd.....which revolves around simplification....or you can choose to dig a little deeper. There are enough people in this game trying to keep things simple. I don't need to be another mindless follower.
The way you set sag for the front fork doesn't seem to make sense with regard to rider weight and load transfer. If you don't take the riders wait with full gear into consideration then how can you establish a baseline just based on dive under braking. Braking is such a variable, there will be times when you will brake soft, times you will brake hard and also the duration of braking. 🤔
Rider "height" will have a far greater effect on brake dive than weight. I have yet to hear of a valid reason for front wheel sag. From a technical perspective it makes very little sense due to the ill effects of binding and seal drag. I would suggest that if anyone tells you to set front sag.....just walk away...
By far the most comprehensive explanation of it all I’ve ever heard. I’m the guy that’s been riding for 10 years and have never one time made one adjustment other than sag. Can’t wait to get started on what appears to be a journey of discovery. Much thanks from Idaho US. 🍻🏁
No worries.....May the force be with you!
Good to see you Terry, as steady as ever
Thanks for the clarity in the procedure to reset my suspension
Your channel is filled with worthwhile information and your response to the comments are very kind
Very best wishes to you and all you care for
Thank you Adam. I trust you are doing well
Excellent thank you Terry it is an absolutely wonderful world
Thank you Terry , Still generous with your time as always
No worries
I don't remember anyone explaining how your height effects forward drive. Makes sense, Thanks!
No one explained it to me either but think about it. The analogy I gave regarding pushing someone in the small of the back to get the best forward progression......If we were to measure the height from floor to the small of the back and determined that this was the ideal measurement what happens when the next rider is 6 inches shorter? We are no longer pushing in the small of the back and the height needs to be adjusted. Sadly, most people want the answer that is easy rather than the answer that is right. McDonalds aren't the most successful restuarant because they produce the best food. They produce the most convenient food.
@@shocktreatment5495 is there a rule of thumb where you start with tall people, say 6'2 and over? As a percentage of "stock sag"?
Normally we are finding that taller riders will have less than 100mm of sag and run heavier springs. I would suggest you try appr 95-100 and still chase around 35 static. The heavier springs also assist with stabilising movement around the pitch axis adding increased levels of control for taller riders.@@maltewagener7797
Once again, thank you Terry...that's a wonderful menu to follow for adjusting standard suspension, without costing a bundle.
Enjoy!
Had to subscribe, legend! love the suspension talks.
Ripper vid Terry. Cheers mate.
Always good to get a memory flash after some partying way too much week 😅
All the best for the year ahead guys.
And to you....Cheers
Great advice - thanks 👍. I've just bought a new correct weight spring for the shock and I'm rebuilding my 4CS for supermoto - so knowing this theory is great.
Glad it helped
This kind of free advice I don’t see much. I spent a lot of time trying to learn about race car suspension and they people with the knowledge don’t seem to share it. Those people are also few and far between.
Thank you.
This has made a massive difference to how I’m gojng to enjoy my bike, and work on my technique as a rider and socket spinner. You’ve put me 40 years ahead of where I was.
Racecar is a another world my friend ! I say nothing to no ones . Even my helpers dont have ALL the secrets haha ! Motocross is fun and super casual. Poeple talk about anything
Good explanation 👏 👍
Glad you liked it
Best explanation of suspension ever. Thank you for posting this video, it's exactly what I needed. 😃👍
Glad it helped!
Brilliant free advice cheers
Glad it was helpful!
Hey Terry would love if you could do a video on wp pro suspension and how to broadly set up with clickers and preloads cheers
Great stuff! "A bump is a bump." 👍
I'm a novice suspension guy about to rebuild the suspension on a DRZ400 that I use for motocamping (mostly paved and gravel side roads). I carry myself plus all my camping gear. I know that it affects the dynamics of everything covered here but would lo e to see a video that talks to the adventure type of suspension tuning.
Great video and technical breakdown. When you mention the Traxx shock not being durable can you elaborate ? Just purchased one and curious to see what I’m in for haha. Cheers
If you have an actual Trax shock with the drop out system, you will find the springs in the clevis can break and require replacement. We have repaired a number of these. Also the shock sent through the swingarm is quite noticable but can be mittigated with a frame mounted bumper from Lanier.
Quick question: Your procedure made perfect sense to me and simple steps! What do you adjust for enduro riders hitting larger logs and bike kicking/bucking after the hit? Through testing many bikes it seemed that ALOT more RB (like 10 clicks stiffer/slower) made improvement (also reducing comp some) does this sound right? Thanks, Jason
Any set up is a compromise. The secret is to have as little compromise as possible. Any impact that sees the centreline of the wheel below the centreline of the obstacle (log) is going to result in a violent forward rotation of the bike. This is best countered through riding technique rather than suspension setup. Quality riders will address the log by kissing the top half of the log with the bottom of the front tyre creating a rearward rotation that helps counter the forward rotation that occurs when the rear makes contact. This means you don't have to compromise 95% of your riding for the 5% of the time you are crossing logs. You do a lot as a tuner. You shouldn't have to solve "inability"......It's ok to tell a rider to lift his game.
Terry is the kind of teacher one listens to.
Cheers
Good information as always..! Just one questions, isnt touching the rebound clickers after compression adjustment also gonna mess with our compression settings we found to like befor we started adjusted rebound on most Bike's with traditional midspeed/pistons setups...?
It sure will......There will always be compromises in tuning. The trick is to end up with the least amount of compromise possible. That's what this method will deliver.
Old timer here. And, raced MTB DH for the last 10 years. On DH rigs it's the opposite when it comes to rebound adjusting. You want it more on the slow side. I've since retired from it and now ride a sumo 450. I'm guessing for street/track (pavement) you want slightly slow rebound?
After working with the National Yamaha, Aprilia and Kawasaki Superbike teams as well as International outfits, I can't imagine any scenario where ground tracing becomes improved with slower rebound. Certainly there are times when you dont want the wheel to follow the ground.....Stadium whoops, sand chop etc but for most cases, you simply can't beat grip. As mentioned in the clip....set your rebound a little faster for grip and then dial it back to achieve the best blend of traction and control. Sadly optimum sensation of control does not always align with optimum grip.
Having said that....your assessment of what is fast and what is slow may not align with mine and we could well be talking about the point in different terms.
@@shocktreatment5495 Look up Andrextr channel when you have time. He has in depth tutorials on rebound adjustment. (not that you need lessons or anything). His rebound recommendations are on the slow side. But, a happy medium slow. I based my settings on my DH bikes off of his recommendations and, seem to work great. Could be a weight difference and tire size that changes for either sport. But, then I'm not an expert. Thanks for your answer. Cheers mate!
A dh rig, in fact any bicycle is a compromise between how the suspensio reacts to the track and how the suspension reacts to pedal input from the rider. .Moto doesn't have this issue
@@Andy-co6pni know accelerating with an engine also changes suspension, makes it stand up. Related to the reason why following a line on pavement, one is not as fast as the other rider on same line, differences in where they loaded or unloaded the suspension for grip... all other factors being equal.
Why is the rear sag key, isnt the angle of the forks important for a balanced chassis... Why don't we measure the degrees of the forks to ensure it's not too raked out OR steep?
These vids are super helpful Terry!
(As most youngsters do, you've sprung back from your injury quickly :)
Fork angle is relative to speed. Trials bike = upright fork (low speed) Land speed bike, forks are raked out (high speed) The rear is all important to power and this is key to performance. Once you have this sorted....marry the front to the rear.
Drop sag increase fork angled increase sag rakes out forks so ur fork angle is set bye ur sag
I thought raising forks puts more weight on the front and gives more traction. You stated raising forks gives up traction. Can you explain? It hasn’t been my experience.
Check out our video on "Steering vs Cornering"....its all there.
I really want more torque 4 th and 5th would be nice
i really want to know what "averages" they set up the bike for ? i assume its some were between like a 1.75 meter 70 kg to a 1.85 meter 80 kg guy? But that is really not the average person in society, its more like the average "fit person". It would be nice to know what specific body types the different brands actually aim for
Bikes will be developed around a company test rider. This will generally be an ex-racer, 75 - 80kgs. If you are lighter or heavier you just have to accept the fact that there should be a new set of springs in your near future.
Hello, nice video, are the trax shocks not as durable ? need they more maintenance? regards
If you have an actual Trax shock with the drop out system, you will find the springs in the clevis can break and require replacement. Also the shock sent through the swingarm can be abrupt but can be mittigated with a frame mounted bumper from Lanier.
@@shocktreatment5495 thanks
I also didn't mention the balance front to rear, rear to front with regard to sag. You cannot have the percentage of sag delta vary more than a few percent, other wise the balance is going to improper- which will negatively affect load transfer.. Either way, a very unscientific method, which is okay, but probably not be a good baseline setup for many riders. I guess it also depends on the type of riding,m I.E. MX, easy single track, tech or hard enduro. 🤦♂
Oooh....you said Delta...
I guess you will have to look at sag in regards to the entire motorcycle as opposed to just suspension. You can follow the crowd.....which revolves around simplification....or you can choose to dig a little deeper.
There are enough people in this game trying to keep things simple. I don't need to be another mindless follower.
The way you set sag for the front fork doesn't seem to make sense with regard to rider weight and load transfer. If you don't take the riders wait with full gear into consideration then how can you establish a baseline just based on dive under braking. Braking is such a variable, there will be times when you will brake soft, times you will brake hard and also the duration of braking. 🤔
Rider "height" will have a far greater effect on brake dive than weight. I have yet to hear of a valid reason for front wheel sag. From a technical perspective it makes very little sense due to the ill effects of binding and seal drag. I would suggest that if anyone tells you to set front sag.....just walk away...
This is why I send all my suspension work to these wizards.
Springs first, Sag, comfort clickers set. Go ride. Then re-evaluate. Make sure if it's a new bike, to give it at least 8-10 hours for some break in.
I was here to see the Rottweilers 😢
I'll send you a clip
Same lol, looked like a damn handsome rottie