Updating an Icon - AVA - Next Gen Thrustmaster
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- čas přidán 19. 05. 2024
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Note. The deflection values are off. For some reason, Thrustmaster reported this gimbal as total deflection. All others report deflection from middle. So, the three values for the AVA should be 1/2 of the reported number. Crazy, sorry for the confusion.
The swappable plates are still a interesting concept and the numbers start to make more sense this way. ....Though It makes me question if the stick is actually dragging along a deflection collar witch has to add some kind of unwanted friction?
@@Accuracy158 it’s cool because no other gimbal does this
So the Virpil WarBRD actually has greater deflection (44 degrees total), and that’s only 4 degrees more than the standard 40 degrees most sticks have? The plates seem to be intended more to limit range of motion than to expand it.
The goal I guess is to limit deflection maybe for some specific aircraft in mind? Or for extension?
Those vales make more sense now
Looks good. Unfortunately I already own Virpil and for myself there is no reason to change.
Would be interested to learn how the TM AVA compares to the Virpil WarBRD-D Base. One of those will replace my TM Warthog base in the not so distant future.
I still enjoy with my Microsoft FFb2 joystick its 20 years old and its strong like a brick :) and motors to center the stick is amazing
I would never go back to a ball style gimbal that center bump was a killer .as a mostly sim helicopter user the warthog was literally the worst for the job, getting rid of it an moving on to virpil was the best thing i ever did . It is good they have finally caught up . however deflection is a non issue/mute sales point . you can tune in game with saturation as far as accuracy goes hall sensors already saturate the games inputs limits an all gimbals on the market that use hall sensors have the same accuracy .ie, more then what can be used by the game the only thing a new gimbal can actually market is its cam/return to center design
This is good to see. Sadly they are late to the party. I have Virpil after using the warthog for 11 years!
Great review on this new stick. It's nice to see TM put up something new. I bought one of the early release Warthogs way back when, and have had several others since then (Virpil and Winwing). I don't know if I'll move to AVA, I'll have to wait and see how it plays out. However, if they were to release a Force Feedback version of the AVA, I'd be all over it. To me, that seems to be the next logical step in high end sticks (going back to what we had available decades ago). Would love to see one of the mainstream stick manufacturers pushout a FFB version!
À 100% d’accord avec toi, le retour de force serait un plus très agréable, car il semble que la base AVA d’après les premiers retours souffre d’un défaut de conception qui fait que le stick revient avec des « rebonds « pas agréable. Je voulais l’acheter mais je vais attendre que les futurs modèles puissent être correct. Pour toi sinon le meilleur stick ou hotas haut de gamme c’est lequel ?
Unless you've been hiding under a rock the FFB Rhino will need your attention! Cheers!!
Installed the Base yesterday. Nice compared to the old Base. Flying the Huey is much smoother now. The Stick has a lot of wooble around the Center if you let it go but it's okay for me. Now it's config Time because i have to bind all Keys for all the Aircrafts in DCS again.
Thanks for the product review Noobifier. Its about time they came out with a new top shelf product. That looks like a heavy-duty spring that will last.
My biggest gripe about my Winwing Orion2 gimbal is that the heavy springs they provide deform and fail after about a year of heavy use. They've been quite good about replacing them until the warranty ran out. I had to twist the CS guy's arm to offer to sell me the springs in bulk.
In the end, I sourced some locally, but they wouldn't share the spring specification with me, I had to measure all of the spring's attributes myself.
I have had some quality control issues with my WinWing stuff. Same sort of things.
For a "flagship" they definitely missed the option to have a modern commercial ForceFeedback Base.
They aren't even closing the gap to Virpil, WinWing and VKB, hardware standards.
In the flightsim market force feedback is a game changer, especially for helicopters. With the DCS F-4E Phantom II now bringing a specific separate FFB profile implemented, TM is just trying to keep up.
In your video review you mention about dozens of times "cost of production", "costs", "added costs", "safe money", etc. which is exactly the issue with a company operating along target costs, production budgets, opposed to quality and required features, first.
That's what you would expect from a "flagship" product. A no compromise to penny pinchers and budget restraints approach, focused on the best possible product, of a high quality. 😇
Cost is always a factor in production at scale. I want saying there were corners being cut, quite the opposite, my point was correct choices were being made despite knowing they would increase the cost.. a positive for the consumer vs finding out too late that there were hidden compromises. I hope that is more clear now. Thank you for your feedback
@@NOOBIFIER1337 If their plan was a better medium range product to accompany their entry level T.16000 range, definitely.
If this is supposed to be the "flagship"/top of the line product, sorry, then the target cost has limited the designers. Ultimately TM is still trying to keep up with the competition.
This is in line with the stoopid decision to build a Warthog replica throttle with a ministick, that's a cheap $0.70 laptop track point, instead of a $2.50 ministick like in any Game Controller. It took TM over a decade to rectify that cost optimization... and only after basically every new throttle on the market had a real ministick, by default and we talk about an actual "top of the line" product at that point in time.
I don't say the AVA base is a bad product, but it isn't what I would consider a "flagship" for TM, compared to today's market and the competition line up, sorry. 🤷🏻♂️
I've commented on this video before, but I have purchased this new base and I have some comments/concerns about it. Specifically two things they lost over the old Warthog base and an observation.
1) unlike the previous warthog base and plate combination, you cannot rotate the base 90 degrees relative to the plate. It only fits on the plate one way. This is a big loss for people with some desk limitations. All it would have taken was a second set of mounting holes and it would have been fine.
2) The Warthog had a much firmer center. The new AVA base has a lot looser of a center in comparison. This means you might want a bigger deadzone for the center position compared to the older model. Maybe this can be fixed by a different cam in the future, but right now, it doesn't feel as good as the original Warthog did.
3) Biggest pet peeve...A new stick (preferably with a twist or additional controls) should have come out at the same time. While I can use my old Warthog Viper Stick, those that are buying new will have to re-buy once the updated sticks come out. Shame on Thrustmaster for either forcing people to re-buy the stick if they want additional functionality, or to just sit on the base until the new sticks are available.
Thanks for this detailed report! Cheers man
Above and beyond review. Thank you!
Great review, looking forward to feeling comparison. I believe the deflection comparison are a bit mixed up. 43 degrees is 2 x 21.5°
Yes. It’s probably inconsistency in different companies measuring practices.
Tanks for the review, N00b! This looks good, and the build quality seems top notch.
No problem 👍 thanks for watching as always
Looks good, but I'm all in on the Virpil eco system 😅. They meant to last a lifetime so will watch this space for future developments. Awesome review 👏
same, full Virpil here, too late Thrusmaster ! ^^
It looks nice though
Sick video. Thankyou 😊
Great vid
TY
Excellent review! Looking to see what the have in store for later but I'm still looking to convert to a full Virpil setup.
Why would you ? If I may ask.
Nice to have options.
Really love that they use USB-C as well as being able to take of the cover to get access the interior without needing to un-/connect interial electronics. Yes, looking at you VIRPIL that have legacy connectors and much more steps to get to the interior. But I still love the Constellation ALPHA sticks better. Having quite large hands, the wider grip fits perfect for me. So the next step for TM might be to get an upgraded stick - maybe geared more towards space-sims? Would love some more buttons!
Was eagerly waiting for your review! Looks like TM nailed it!
I am happy with the product. A great upgrade from the warthog.
Looks good so far, glad to see they're finally updating their lineup. One possible concern is the wire and harness that goes to the grip. This is going to get flexed a lot so may eventually fail. The connectors looked like they were glued in on the bottom PCB which could prevent replacing it, but depends on the type of glue used. It looks like the connector one the grip interface has screws at least, so if the glue isn't a problem it should be replaceable.
Looking forward to see what new grips they come out with!
This looks good. I’ve been using my warthog HOTAS for 9 years (2015), so my plan will be an eventual complete replacement. I had been looking at the other three, but I’ve been using TM since the days of their earliest heavy spring joysticks. That brings me to my only concern, which is that the original joysticks had a tendency to become unusable after a few years because of spring failure. I would hope someone at TM would remember this failure point and ensure the springs are robust enough for the tension being used. Especially with the amount of deflection they are allowing.
What I am hoping for as a next step is a twist stick with a number of good quality controls.
Will be getting one because I can walk down to my local game store and pick one up.
From the Cougar, Warthog and other sticks - only have TM gear.
wow finally something from TM
Best reviews as always !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Much appreciated!
Awesome content, and I’m excited for this stick. Quick correction, you said 20 to 30 degree increase results in 1/3 more but it is in fact a 1/2 increase!
As someone who has been using a warthog for years now this is exciting!
But i have to say its a bit surprising they didnt add twist functionality to it.
I recently changed my setup and now i play things like Star citizen in a room with laminate floors. The desk needs to be a work desk first gaming pc 2nd. So mounting the pedals to the floor in some way is just not happening.
Ive been considering upgrading to virpil as i could get twist in the stick at a high bar of quality.
For a moment i thought this could have saved the day and i could keep my warthog and just change the base.
Sadly i suspect ill still target virpil. Id really like to stop needing pedals and unfortunately this doesnt seem to have twist :(
Twist is inside à grip, not à base
Interesting, I quite recently threw my old TM Warthog away due to the plastic gimble, also I got rid of the throttle, because it was very timeconsuming to configure to use with any game.
As i am looking for a "easy to carry" solution this base looks perfect. If they add some new sticks, maybe specially for space/Star Citizen, this will be my choice
You ability to organise gear and information is always impressive my friend. This stick seems to get a lot of things right. I will watch for you reviewing a many button space stick for that excellent base that dual usage includes a home defense weapon.
Might be interesting if Thrustmaster put panels over where the cams sit, so instead of a full teardown its just two panels. So cams and springs can be changed and tuned in flight.
I will go from warthog to FFBeast
Looks good, but yes... "too late" for me. Ive already purchased 3 different virpil products. I doubt they will break any time soon.
These replaced my old thrustmaster setup.
I AM still on the market for a new throttle and collective....
Hint...hint.. TM.
We're gonna get technical here... Dribble... 🤤🤤
I'm still limited to the entry level TM but I've made my dual TM16K last for 3+ years (yes, on borrowed time, I've already rebuilt them). My next move would be mid-range market originally but maybe start stashing funds away at maybe getting the AVA.
I’m down with them creating more expensive sticks. Eventually we’ll see that tech get less expensive with volume and mfr innovations but we can’t get great stuff cheap if we don’t have great stuff to begin with. Also 18 months? That’s some dedication man. Seriously thank you.
Thanks for the review Noob, how does this compare to the Virpil CM3. As a mainly Helo guy, I still can't find a complete solution to the problem. The CM3 has making small adjustments around the centre... even using your method of removing the cams completely.
Great review on the AVA noobifier. Really excited to see what Thrustmaster does and if they can make something of high end that is worth while for space sim enthus. They have the best budget sticks on the market with T.16000M but I think it's time for Thrusmaster to join the space sim party. Looking forward to it!
Super exciting to have more options. Big hitters doing the big work to make new products.
Mine gets here Thursday
Thanks for the in-depth review; very helpful. Do you have an Amazon affiliate link to drop a few coins into your hat if/when we buy one?
Oh snap. I was looking at new stick to replace my 12 year warthog (because after 2 repairs the base is shot to shit) when i stumbled on this review only by chanse. This is so great, i love the throttle and feel of the stick so much, i'd rather buy the new base then throw these away. I'm hyped.
Nice
That all sounds good, but let's see what the sticks bring at what price. I'm not willing to shell out extra money to have a stick modelled after a current plane
Upgrading from the Warthog. I’m going to use a center mount with an extension. I’m considering this over the Virpil CM3. The offset adapter appeals to me. Any thoughts/advice appreciated. Thanks.
so uh, I was looking at the new VKB STECS Throttle System, thoughts?
Is it possible you could share more info on the damper they use? I am interested I. Something like that for a project.
When they release or allow me to discuss the upgrade dampener that is due to release shortly, I will do that for you no problem.
It's always nice to see competition in this market! Does the AVA base have a desktop (non-mounted) base configuration? If so, what are your thoughts? I am so glad I found your channel years ago.
it’ll actually use the same big metal plate that the original hog uses
We need a good Force feedback HOTAS
I think 22° for warbrd-d is from center. I have one and i'm pretty sure it's not 22° from right to left
It’s possible now that I have had more time to think about.
@@NOOBIFIER1337 it's sure for me now :) but i forgot the most important thing in my comment ! Thx for all !
Too late indeed, but it's also add a little competition. But there's no coming back with you already use a Virpil base.
So while installing stick on base it is still not possible to twist it a bit to the left like in some real cockpits when stick is in center? This is wrist killer for center mount
in the video there is a mention about a twist adapter with 0 / 15° / 30 ° offset for that purpose :)
Looks like a good stick. But, unless someone comes out with newer force feedback sticks, I'll just stick to what I've got.
I had mine for about an hour and initiated a return. Great construction, but very loosey goosey. And an annoying clunk going aft of center. Can't recommend.
You missed the asymmetry in the force of the Virpil T50-CM2, now one of the longest threads on their forums. This has a similar single hinged design, has it been struck by the same flaw?
CM2 is off flipped axis so it’s not like this. The closest would be the original MT50
How do you think the base of AVA compares to Virpil's? I'd be interested in buying one of them in the future, if Thrustmaster ends up making twist sticks.
It's nice to Thustmaster updating the higher end line up it's long overdue. I hope one day they decide to enter the space sim segment at that level. I still use my warthog in SC but if they made a similar product with a twist it would be nice.
Grips can still have twist in the future. The gimbal is a good start to a future ecosystem.
@@NOOBIFIER1337Agreed more folks in the market place is always a good thing
Im curious if nyogel will have a benefit like it did to th warthog. Having a bouncy stick is a big turn off for me.
Can you use virpil extensions and grips on it?
Extensions Yes, Grips will attach but none of the buttons will work.
@@NOOBIFIER1337 Darn! That makes it a no-go for me.
From what kind of metal are internals made of? ZnAl or steel?
Do you think it would be good to mount it as floor standing base joystick with heavy grips like the ones from F/A-18?
Aluminium, Steel.. The gimbal is designed for 200mm Extension. On hardest spring there is a great deal of return force
@@NOOBIFIER1337 Aluminium?! Can you please tell what parts are done from aluminium?
@@sunrrrise the base is steel, the frame is T32024. It’s highly engineered. I have confidence in the build
Hi @NOOBIFIER1337 , how does this base feel in comparison to the Virpil WarBRD, esp. in respect to cross axis transition? For me it is of utmost importance that I cannot feel any transition between the X & Y axis, allowing me to make smooth circular movements with the stick.
For that specific case I would choose WarBRD. These are really great, but there is a slight click felt when transitioning
@@NOOBIFIER1337 Ok, and this click is not there with the WarBRD?
I would love a head to head comparison with Virpil
This is planned
CAM no Center ? Twist axe Z possible ? Soft Spring ? Left-hand Joysctick available ? Space joystick with more buttons available ?
Soon?
The next thing I'd like to see, and I don't care if it is Thrustmaster, Virpil, VKB or WinWing, is a right-handed throttle.
Oohf!
Do you buy cars from United Kingdom, Australia or Japan to have a wheel on right side as well?
@@sunrrrise I usually hold the steering wheel with both my hands. Next flawed analogy please.
@@Karackal Even gear shifting lever?
@@sunrrrise Noob asked us what our wishes are. I answered with my wish. Why are you being weird about it? You may wish for different things of course, but telling me my wish is invalid is just odd. I might have a barely healed scaphoid fracture in my right wrist that makes it really painful to hold a stick for a prolonged time.
Even if I said "I want a Constellation Alpha Prime in pink with hello kitty prints and glitter all over it": how does it affect you? You don't have to buy it.
Is it still possible to connect the handle backwards thus breaking the pins ?
You cannot
@@NOOBIFIER1337 That's great because you could with the warthog hence the yellow arrows
@@TheD4VR0Sthey still have the arrows to pay homage
Question sir... does this either work as or have an option for left hand use?
If they release a left grip in the future as part of the eco system, yes
@@NOOBIFIER1337 Worth keeping an eye on TY and Thank you for a expedient reply
At first thought you were being ironic with '...an icon, reborn, for 2014' at 1:41 in the video, but given the positive review, it might have just been a slip of the tongue. Possibly due to TM not updating their enthusiast line for so long...
2024
I own 4 different virpil bases.. and I have used none of them since I received my vp rhino
Did they ever make an official left stick?
Not for this type of screw mount. The T16k is
@@NOOBIFIER1337 The 16k is not an alternative to products from the competition, which offers basically similar quality, but with left-hand and dual- stick options and a software stack that supports that kind of gameplay and on top some really nice collectives or omni-throttle options.
It really is too little to late if I am completely honest. But hey, it's a start to catch up.
@@Traumglanz there is nothing stopping them from quickly making a mirrored grip for sale.
[~1:41]
"Great to see an Icon reborn, for *2014* "
Holy moley! I mean... I know you like to be thorough and all, but... 10 years of testing for this review?
😜
with their deadstick update. how about a FFB option? the old patents should have expired as its been over 20 years. Lets get Feedbacking!
Is the ball still hard plastic?
There is no ball
Impressive leap from the WH by TM. Finally the obsolete WH design can die and customers get what has become the standard for sticks.
The future damper kit sounds very interesting too, we'll have to see if it garners as much criticism as the current offerings.
Bit of a shame about the price point and current lack of accompanying throttle. One argument for the WH is that you got a full setup (not counting yaw control, which this doesnt seem to offer either, unlike the competition ?) for an increasingly good value as it depreciated.
It's hard to recommend a 300 dollar base plus 100 odd dollar grip, plus up to 500 dollars of throttle, AND pedals.
Not sure why it wiould die as you can get a solid base + stick for the price of a premium base. There are many people who don't care about customization and they simply want an heavy build feeling. I guess they might just update it to make it last longer and it can be a good entry door for some folks
The exciting news here is this shows that Thrustmaster is finally, after years of leaning on the venerable Warthog, putting serious effort into a *new* high end flight stick.
Late to the party or not, Thrustmaster is back.
Are they or is it too little too late?
@@Traumglanz That is *the* question, isn't it?
It may be that VIRPIL, VKB, and WinWing have already eaten their lunch. But I'd rather see Thrustmaster make a solid attempt to compete than continue to milk the aging warthog, or give up on the product category.
@@42DangerVision Absolutely agree on that.
And all for only $299.99 inflated dollah. Im good with my VKBs and Honeycomb setup
they got the guts to sell just the base for 300?
I never cared to get a high end stick, but I do like trying out various sticks. I do get drawn to unique things and this one, has caught my eye for something that might last.
Yeah...excellent product, but too expensive to have one ☹
$300 free shipping is too much?
@@NOOBIFIER1337 it definitely can be if you're looking for an entry level product. I used to play using a £50 second hand stick and throttle. Now I'm thousands of pounds in the hole with a mix of virpil and winwing products... But that's a different story!
@@NOOBIFIER1337 $300 is for the Base only and after you have to buy this and that....and voila $550-700 😏 Anyway it's still a high quality item, but a bit expensive for a hobby imho.
@@NOOBIFIER1337 Just for a base without force feedback? And not much of an Ecosystem around it?
Feels to me like just not good enough.
Don't get me wrong, sounds like a fair price for a good product that I have no need for as other options on the market tempt me more, have me already in the ecosystem, and arguable offer these days a much better software than Target is. And don't get me wrong, Target had been awesome like 15 years ago.
Certainly AVA does not make me feel exited.
@@pickyfox9061 If you have a Warthog stick this is compatible, If you have a fixation for warthog, that's work with AVA to. But yes, If you don't had a Warthog before, this is what you say !
Still no twist in a high end Thrustmaster product? I'm sure it'll cost a fortune too.
If this thing cost 200 or even 250 I'd be all over it. 300 is juuuuust a bit too much for an impulse buy
No left stick, no twist ... no dice.
Twist is in the grip
@@NOOBIFIER1337 Thanks for the response Noob. Thrustmaster has a twist grip or is it you can get one that is compatible with the base? I wish Thrustmaster offered a left stick.
@@NOOBIFIER1337Although twist is in the grip, does the base and drivers support it? I went on line and it wasn’t clear to me. I took my Virpil alpha and connected it to my round warthog base. Then I uninstalled virpil software and installed Thrustmaster Target. I noticed that wheel nob and twist were not recognized. There are some posts on Reddit suggesting you need both a grip that can twist and a base that can recognize it. Does AVA support twist?
What a missed opportunity to bring back affordable force feedback to the mainstream and blow away the competition. Guess VKB will just do that in a few years.
My thoughts and opinion. Sadly for the Flight Sim community, Thrustmaster shifted focus to racing sim controllers and seemed to put flight sims to the back burner. With good reason as new flight sims were not being released as they previously were. Racing sims, on the other hand, has lots going on. Developing for the current gamer market makes sense. This allowed competitors to close the gap and even arguably pass Thrustmaster in the Flight Sim market.
Thrustmaster has some catching up to do now. Especially with DCS growth and rebirth of the Microprose Falcon series in the works.
I’ve bought many of Thrustmaster’s products in my time and would like to see them return to being a leader in the market for Flight Sim controllers. Competition drives innovation and tends to lower prices to gain market share.
We need a strong Thrustmaster company to provide more choice for consumers.
well, kind of true but look at all the products since covid (airbus line, Boeing, line F16 TQS, base...). Logitech has launched nothing. The company tries to adress many niches but i guess time & budget are limited for everyone
1:41 2024? 😉
Probably
As someone who is in the market for high end joystick to play space sims, this having no left hand option means it is DOA for me. Who knows, maybe Thrustmaster will make a left hand version.
Stay tuned?
@@NOOBIFIER1337 Always.
the blood comment.... important... 'NO'. hahahahaha
for that price there should have a twist control add to it a big miss and vbk are better
Twist is in the grip
Still a bit expensive for me. Very nice tho.
Will there be an XBOX & PC version ?
Likely not.
@@NOOBIFIER1337 If that ends up being the case then TM has missed a great opportunity. They could make an external box with the Xbox chip and required buttons for Xbox certification.
Can you comment on the backlash/bounce/wobble? The dampers don't seem to be doing it well according to this user czcams.com/video/peJ5_zSBzhA/video.htmlsi=nZHdEWLvTTuFJoc_
Looks like a solid product, but not having a twist makes this a no buy for me and a lot of others when you have vkb and virpil with better products. It's baffling whey they did not add it TBH.
Twist is in the grip, always.
More competition IS good, but I've been disappointed by TM's indifference to this side of the sim market, and feel like this doesn't add anything new. It's just a, "let me get a piece of that sim-money pie" addition.
Also, starting their re-entry into the flight sim market with very high end pedals was an odd move that made me think TM felt their Warthog HOTAS remained "good enough". Perhaps the throttle was, but skimping on longevity to save money and make the Warthog gimbal out of plastic feels egregious to me in the face of companies like Virpil who bend over backwards to add features I WANT in their high end offerings because I asked for them.
Hopefully in the future, once the basis of their new product line is established, TM will release something innovative that makes me forgive them for ignoring this market for so long. (I played flight sims when they first started out and their products were considered the very best money could buy).
A lot of opinion here, and perhaps not fair opinions. Regardless, it's hard to imagine TM regaining my trust to their product line now that I'm so impressed with Virpil's way of doing business.
Honestly if they offered something game changing or even expanded on something we all want. But, much like their direct drive wheel base, they are so late to the party that everything this new stick offers has already been done and for cheaper too. Maybe if it had force feedback, or if it was priced to take out vkb or even take out the x56. Unless your already in their ecosystem (which seems to be their MO for all their products) there isn't much reason to get this base. (hot take, still better than the velocity hotas by a mile though)
you can't seriously put x56 in the same league as TM VKB Virpil and co
@@aquamich129 read what I actually said. I didn't claim the quality was similar, I said PRICED to make them irrelevant. Gotta contextualize what your reading brother.
I think it is too little, too late and too expensive. Why on earth would I choose the AVA over a Winwing or a Virpil?
As I said, this is the start of a general refresh for TM.
@@NOOBIFIER1337 Lets hope they continue to modernize their product lineup and catches up with the competition at some point.
I cant see it getting enough spring strengt for an extention with only 1 cam/spring setup.
If the base is Plastic it's Junk to me I have had a tone of sticks and can say anytime plastics are involved the stick turns to Trash.
But the base is metal… so
@@NOOBIFIER1337 Dang now going to have to get one just to see how it flies i spend way to much on these products lol
No force feedback. 😒 Pointless
the prices of these sticks is just too much holy crap. I have to just use 5$ thrift store sticks. oh well. i just gotta stop being poor.
Some people play 4 to 8 hours a day, so perhaps you might just not be the target market ?
"from a thrift store" - that could actually be a quality joystick, you got for $5.
@@lordfraybin Somebody recently showed up on the VKB Discord looking for tips on maintenance for a NXT they picked up for $20 in some store.
Made in China though. Nothing is perfect I guess :)
Late and overpriced, they should have develop a Force Feedback stick instead