Having no gas pedal is a good thing | Know it All with Jason Cammisa | Ep. 07
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- čas přidán 9. 09. 2024
- By-wire throttle seems like a silly idea, replacing a simple cable with a potentiometer and an electric motor to accomplish the same thing. But there are many benefits, some of which are explored here.
We have many names for the right pedal - gas, throttle, accelerator - but none of those are accurate.
Today's cars use them as "throttle request pedals," since they're connected to nothing but a computer. Then, it's up to the computer to decide how to make the torque you've requested at the drive wheels, with a combination of dozens of variables including, finally, throttle opening.
Giving a computer full control over everything actually simplifies functions like cruise control, idle speed control, and traction control. But it also helps your car get better fuel economy, and cruise more quietly.
Oh, and it can help avoid a crash.
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![The Porsche Carrera GT is fine. Until it’s not. - Spotlight feat. Jason Cammisa - Ep. 7 [UHD 4K]](/img/n.gif)
I have a little Fiat 1.4 8v for a daily, and when I ask for the torque resquest pedal I can hear the car ECU mocking me “you are wasting your time bambino mio”
:)))
You don't request torque. You request rpm and then you move on those little engines 😁
I genuinely thought they were going to pitch an idea where you only have a brake pedal and when you let off it accelerates (like those terrible mobile racing games).
Same, would've been weird like if you could tune the ECU to move off at 80% throttle all the time, then you do passive burnouts in bumper to bumper traffic
You mean like in some types of riding lawn tractors. Quite annoying and sometimes dangerous on those.
This is basically opposite of the "one pedal mode" that actually exists on recent Leaf cars and some other electric cars. That mode "defaults" to maximum regenerative braking and stepping on the "torque request" pedal progressively reduces engine braking and then transitions to actually adding power
Lol that would be a hilarious disaster
😆i was thinking something like that myself, before i clicked my thoughts where F'k first the manual now the peddle what's next the steering.
I drive a 1.6 Miata. It has a noise and heat request pedal.
Oh ...
I thought it's just a fuel consumption pedal
@@fajaradi1223 That too, but it's only really bad in the city. The heat bit is funny though. If you don't have a/c, it's summer, it's raining and you have the top up, you can feel the cabin warming up when passing a truck or going uphill.
lol nice comment sir
Homosexual car.
@@CadillacDriver whar
I’m only using the phrase “Torque Request Pedal” from now on, just to see who is and isn’t tuning in to one of the best shows on CZcams.
You might get beat up. Just saying. Please don't blame me. 😜
Ha! I'm in for that!
Good idea! I am joining in!
Me Four
lol lol lol i am also going to use that in my next video lol lol
I call it "Intention pedal" it only says what you intend to do to the ECU. The goddamn black magic box in the front just does whatever it wants after
You Sir,made me laugh with the "intention pedal" , thank you!
I feel like we would get along
This reminds me of Iain Tyrrell showing how to restore ~30hp from a classic Ferrari - he just corrected the two seperate throttle cables that had extended over the years.
Or Rich Rebuilds adjusting the throttle stop on his Sherp.
Jason, you're killing it with this unique content. I'm learning way more than I ever would about stuff I've never given two seconds to think about. Please keep it coming.
Jason: "Your car, like every other car in production today, has a by-wire throttle"
Me: looks around at my aging fleet of drivers and suddenly feels very dinosaur.
Lol ur telling me, my youngest car is from 1997, hell it has a cable clutch still
@@daslynnter9841 I've got 2 cars with cable BRAKES. Like, that's it. Literally a pedal connected to drums by a cable.
That is why I enjoy my '75 Jeep CJ-6 that has both hard linkage throttle and clutch. I hate chasing sensor related gremlins that infest anything built in the last 30+ years.
Lol don't worry- I think the only one of cammisa's like 7 car fleet that has throttle by wire is the e-golf (and maybe that lotus?)
Yep I like my dinosaurs
I got a 97 and a 62 in the shed both are void of the brain boxes only cables rods and linkages
Hell the 97 will run without a battery once it's started
Not gonna lie, that was a great video 🤐
Never thought of what goes into drive-by-wire, still, would never wanna get rid of my mechanical throttle on my S2000 🤓
Excellent! And thank you for bringing Toonces into this discussion.
Until now, no one has had the balls. Hats off to you sir.
Haha TOONCES NO!
Video: uploaded 46 minutes ago
Tedward: commented 48 minutes ago
Me🤷
Look out, Toonces!!!
And Spongebob!
If there's anything I've learned from watching MCM and Skid Factory, it's that e-throttle was one of the best developments in engineering that reduced mechanical complexity. I've been having a load of issues with the shitty idle control system and vacuum-operated cruise control device on my 91 Miata. Hunting idle, hard starts, vacuum leaks and coolant leaks from a spaghetti of hoses are all problems e-throttle has solved. Once I go to a standalone ECU setup, I'm definitely going to figure out how to retrofit e-throttle.
Had similar problems with my aw11 mr2 and it was driving me up the wall. My daily meanwhile is a ton simpler.
Sing it Jason:
"Step on the torque request and wipe that tear away
One sweet dream came true today."
Jason please whatever you do don’t stop making these series man, I’ve been around cars for ages but I wouldn’t be able to explain things like drive by wire so well like you did.
Dollar store Ryan Reynolds explains complex stuff nobody asked to know but needed to know nonetheless - but the real question is where is his white lab coat and spectacles?
@@drewwrobel564 except he’s Ryan Reynolds fella - of the dollar store ilk :)
@@drewwrobel564 D.O.L.L.A.R S.T.O.R.E
I remember when everyone called him Adam Sandler.
@@andersonjukebox8315 I'm still with you bro
Im getting ben affleck vibes
Now there is active servo control of the wastegate on turbochargers as well, then a significant portion of the throttle mapping can be selecting boost based on the throttle pedal position while leaving the throttle plate open.
The problem with these “torque request systems” is the same complexity that makes them so impressive on paper. Because they are constantly recalculating, they are constantly readjusting to produce max efficiency at the expense of predictable (I.e linear) and responsive torque behavior. As a result, when I drive JLR’s new Ingenium engine, modulating speed with the pedal becomes almost impossible. While maintaining steady pressure to the pedal, the car alternates between too much and too little power, making it easier to just stick with cruise control. Meanwhile, when I drive Porsche’s N/A boxer 6C engine there is granular modulation and driver inputs are transmitted more appropriately through the drivetrain.
At the risk of sounding way older than I am, high tech isn’t always better.
This is the best show ever. I can’t be the only one who wants to see more technical car content thats delivered in a funny way with good production value. Keep it up!
I like anything-by-wire. I'm even developing a cook-by-wire gas cooktop. Improved fire safety and far more precise temperature control are some of its benefits.
6:10 aaannd that's my jam...
I miss cable throttles, rev hang is the enemy of banging gears
It's also interesting to note that when it's 100% computer controlled, some cylinder head designs don't even require a throttle at all. Nissan's VVEL system actually keeps the "throttles" wide open all the time, and instead modulates torque by adjusting the "Valve Event and Lift" (in the acronym). This provides all the benefits mentioned here, but also reduced pumping losses by not having an entire intake manifold under vacuum.
Jason Cammisa... the car nerd we deserve... and appreciate... and respect.
If you're tuning your car then you can use all of the functionality of an e throttle to your advantage too.
It's always good to have a know-it-all in the house!
Knows most of it yes but not all of it. He has passed down mis-information
@@ACommenterOnCZcams okay, so what part of it was the mis-information and how do you know?
@@anthonyt4981 not this video, another video
@@anthonyt4981 i'm not stalling, there is a difference. In one of his videos where he passed incorrect information about needing to upgrade existing parts and spending thousands of $$ on a car when you have to add a turbocharger.
Talking about how manufacterers have to upgrade this and that and that just to accomondate a turbocharger to an engine which is far from the truth. Many people add turbos to their car and maintain oem parts. He said this is the reason why affordable sports cars are not turbo.
Which again is incorrect, you CAN add turbo and not pass that $10k to the customer.
@@ACommenterOnCZcams well that wasn't one of his know it all videos. it was his brz video. I get where you're coming from, but it's kinda reality though. Hard to describe in a short amount of words, but that's how car manufacturers see fit. It's not Jason Cammisa's word and opinion, it's the industry's. he is just relaying it to us viewers.
Fantastic explanation. I wish more people would understand these things. Now, speaking from an enthusiast point of view, I’m very thankful I still own my car from 94. The difference between cable and torque request is very noticeable. Absolutely no lag or “I’ll think about your request and raise you slightly less throttle”. Give me cable pedal any day! The only electronics in my 94 is the ecu to manage the engine itself, and the abs on the brakes. That’s it. Everything else is old school. 👏🏻
Driving the 2010 daily, I’ve got to hit the torque request pedal extra hard to give me the proper revs for a downshift. Gotta turn off stupid tsc as well. Every time I fire the car up. Thankfully it’s just 1 button.
Give me the good old days any day of the week. 😎
I drive a 91 because I can't afford a 65.
Jason camisa truly is a gem on hagerty.
I drove a 32 ford model A the other day ,it sorta drove like a old tractor. But I was controlling everything I could even adjust the spark timing while I was driving.
Your videos are brilliant. A real petrol head who knows the facts. The throttle will also close if you apply the brakes at the same time.
Not always. For example modern Porsches leave it open when driving in sport mode to keep the turbos spinning fast, so you don't have lag when you get on the power again.
Yup, my car is drive by wire, and it hates me trying to rev match on downshifts, but its a 1.3 Euro ecobox
As both a motor head and a nerd, I found this video to be awesome!
Man that kind of content was missing! Thank you!
I feel like the world would be a better place if every driver would just watch Jason's videos
Yeah, but with a throttle cable, when the terminators come to take over, they can’t control my car..... 😂🤣
hey we say it jokingly, but you can hack into and remotely drive most FCA products from 2013 and before with very little effort
Jessica Alba attempting to lick her elbows in the 2007 film Good Luck Chuck
I was wondering that, thank you
What an absolute hero. Thanks
I learn so much every week from Jason! THANK YOU for putting up these informative and entertaining videos :)
The comments remind me of all the old people complaining about how kids can't work on stuff, and then complain about how things are too complicated for them to fix themselves 😂
"Kids these days are lazy!" they say on their phone as a 25 year old is fixing their car for them.
I'd rather have a simple cable too. But, well, things change. Even my 25 year old vehicle is electronic control (diesel).
These videos are brilliant. I'm an automotive engineer with EV and transmission calibration experience. You're spot on with the torque request pedal lol.
Jason I agree but I would just like good throttle response and no rev-hang! Haha. I know that is very much possible with a non-cable setup, I would just like it to be tuned that way.
I was expecting another condescending Cammisa rant about stuff most car-guys already know... but, I actually learned something this time... a whole lot actually!
You are the best addition to Hagerty's channel in ages-- thank you for providing regular awesome content and being cool
It also helps to have a steady percentage at throttle which improves fuel consumption like the ability of no engine braking.
Much greater than a cable but i still and always will prefer the cable lol.
Best content everRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR not only great content and production but KNOWLEDGE!
Very good video... Even I learned some things! Which... I know you don't know me Jason but if you can teach me something about cars, that's impressive. One thing you neglected to mention is emissions. One of the primary reasons car companies started to do electronic throttles is to make the lambda fuel ratio adjustment PROactive instead of REactive. If you have a cable throttle, and you stab on the accelerator, there is a brief moment where the air flow sensor hasn't noticed the increased airflow yet, and a moment where the mixture leans out before the exhaust makes it to the oxygen sensor and tells the ECU that the mixture is lean. This may only be half a rotation of the engine, but you get a little burst of unwanted emissions. Suddenly lift off, and there is a brief moment of rich mixture. More sophisticated throttle position sensors (not just idle/middle/wot) improved this, as the computer knew what position your throttle was actually in, but at that point you're halfway to drive by wire already. By letting the computer react to the torque request pedal, and do the throttle opening in its own time, it can maintain the appropriate air fuel ratio continuously, regardless of how violently you stab or let off the go pedal.
The problem w many current manuals is that they come w rev hang and unpredictable torque request pedal response. It’s like getting a steak w a plastic knife and fork.
I really didn’t expect so much useful information in a video that short and simple. Well done 👏 😃
Jason rocks and so does this channel
Another potential benefit to throttle-by-wire: Cylinder deactivation in a car with individual throttle bodies. Who needs a complicated valvetrain when you can simply keep that cylinder's throttle valve closed? This also allows other cylinders to open the throttle valves further (because this will put a higher load on each of the remaining cylinders), to increase economy. And it's not a toggle. It's not "8 cylinder , 6, or 4 cylinder." It could be any number of cylinders that get deactivated. It could be used by the engine computer to deactivate cylinders that it has detected a misfire in, in order to save the engine, catalytic converter, and environment.
I guess that's what Infiniti calls the intelligent transmission in my car because it supposedly learns your driving habits based on multiple data points and usually hands you the correct gear based on speed, the amount of "gas pedal" requested along with how fast you requested it.
Entertaining, straight to the point, and I learned a few things.
you are a great teacher
And here I was, proud of my '06 Ford GT being the newest car I own with a throttle cable. ☹
Both my 98's and my S15 Silvia are throttle cable still. My 14 is a drive by wire.
Nice car, IMO best modern take on the GT40 ever.
Eh I feel like having all that control to yourself is pretty fun too and I think so does jason looking at his car collection
AS U SHOULD BE..... you have the car of cars the champ of champions nothing to be upset about YOU WON IN LIFE
This is one of the best features of the Hagerty channel. If I ran the company, I would give Jason a raise. Just saying. Funny and educational, all together. Excellent.
I would hire Jason to homeschool my kids. Never a boring class.
Makes sense now considering Cobb’s Accesstuner software maps the throttle pedal as requested torque. Never knew that before.
Thank you for the dedication to your craft, Jason, and sharing it with us.
What an education on fly by wire torque request pedal! I had no idea on the benefits.
Kind of surprised this channel has such few views, deserves more for sure.
If I wanted the computer to do everything for me, I wouldn’t drive mostly older cars with manual transmissions (and manual transfer cases in some of them). This tech all works in a lot of cases, sure- but part of the fun is doing it yourself. Shifting manually, controlling the throttle, trying to find the limit of braking... it’s hard to do that with a computer holding your hand and saying “now now Timmy, I know you want to go fast, but let’s do this other thing first okay?”
Not gonna lie, I thought I 'knew' it all before watching this. I've learned sth new today.
3:30 that is really fascinating and definitely deserves a separate video!
Easiest way to think of it (IMO) is that any resistance in the intake tract (e.g. really dirty air filter, kink in intake tube, or closing of throttle) will definitionally increase pumping losses and therefore hurt volumetric efficiency. Part of the benefit of a diesel engine vs gas is diesel has no throttling losses. Throttling in combination with the energy expended during compression stroke (and general friction + load of valvetrain) results in engine braking off-throttle, which naturally is less strong on a diesel (I understand this is in part why the Jake brake exists, to further improve engine braking via pumping). The effect of compression on engine braking would be greater on a diesel due to high CR, but there’s no throttling losses. At least this is my understanding!
Jason is a god.
Awesome run down, never knew of the benefits of DBW
I have a 92 Toyota Pickup with cruise control. It's an entirely separate part, with its own, separate throttle linkage.
That was very well put together, clear & concise. Thank you
Nice. What modern PCU's do is amazing. All you have to do is drive a carbureted car for a bit to realize how far we've come.
I would drive a carb car if I could afford to buy one.
You only need to fix a ecu controlled fly by wire car to learn why wire throttle controlled cars are still so hot in the market. Cost of ownership. More electronics = money pit.
Torque pedal is catchy and works for EVs, too. Nice!
Hi Jason, I am thankful you are back and sharing!
Lots of cool additional info that even some of us "gearheads" didn't think about before 👍 Keep up the great content.
P.S. "E-throttles" can also help with packaging, since you don't have to route a cable and worry about bend radii.
I suggest you look at a 2005 ralliart. Drive by wire but the kicker. A cable goes to engine bay to the tb actuator. So why?
"Torque request pedal." Thanks Jason; this is only nomenclature I will use from this point forward.
Considering I have a 2002 Prius, I can't exactly call it a "gas pedal".
@@aspecreviews The Prius also has the steer by wire "steering request wheel" lol :)
@@mry82 no, a 20 year old vehicle does not have steer by wire. In fact, no Prius has had steer by wire. All Prii have had brake by wire, though, so I guess you could call the brake pedal a braking request pedal
@@aspecreviews p.s. thanks for correcting me. I know some people are sensitive about these things, but I would rather know the truth! (also, if you already saw my last response, I edited it a bit, lol)
This is one of the best series of car videos of all time.
That's an annoying emissions "feature".
Mr. Cammisa has absolutely no right to being the absolutely fantastic presenter he is, forcing me to stay hooked on to all his videos 😆
The most vulnerable device in any electrical component with an often used potentiometer ..... is the potentiometer.
Amazing Jason👍
Thank you so much for creating and sharing this content! Ironically my degree taught me none of this. Kudos to Jason for explaining it all with such flair. 💯
Except cruise control you can do all of the stuff (mentioned at 1:30) on a traditional cable controlled throttle by controling ignition. Have a look at motobikes. Most of them have cable throttle and still have traction control, rev limiter, idle speed control etc.
Ok, Jason. Thx. I always knew that I feel how our N/A cars "get lazy" after me wife is driving them. Now it makes sense because she is just rolling in high gear and then when I get them they are all ECO and Priusy and I swear for two straight minutes they are lazy....then adapting to the maniac behind the wheel waking up
I have learned more in 2 videos from you about cars than my entire life listening to all of my car guy friends....
this man doesn't miss
I love the idea of computers in cars. The ability to make adjustments tens to hundreds of times a second is amazing. What I hate is the implementation for the masses. If there's a computer in my car, I want the ability to tell it what I want from it beyond just "eco" and "sport" mode. I want traction control to default to off, not on, and to be able to determine how much it intervenes. I want be able to tell it my own rev limits and when to implement them. Thank god I don't have to worry about gear selection since I've only got manuals but those are tragically a dying breed too.
I like my 2010 crown vic dbw. Cruise control is smooth.
I always explained to people that the drive by wire gas pedal was to ask the computer permission to go faster, which you might or might not get. Jason’s explanation is way more complicated.
Honestly Cammisa is a genius
amazing stuff
Another great video.
As high tech as all this new stuff is. And as cool as it is.
I prefer my linkage of my 67 390GT Cougar or the cable of my daily driven 86 Bronco. (Which its only issue is pathetically low horsepower)
These are so great
Finally, someone did a video about this and far more clearer than what I have visioned, THANK YOUU!!
The best channel and only bc of your style of telling the story. You make us guys feel smarter; lol
just listening to all this makes me enjoy engine work. awesome
Wonderful
By far the best car content on CZcams
I knew all of this but it was still interesting to watch
I've found my new favorite CZcamsr
Great video, I have learnt a lot from it. Is the horrible revhang on so many modern cars also connected with torque request pedal by wire or is it a produst of a different thing?
It is absolutely a side effect of electronically moderated throttle in order to maximize emissions. In a cable controlled throttle engine, when you get off the gas pedal, the throttle closes completely, cutting oxygen to the engine. However, if you were just at wide-open throttle, the fuel system is STILL giving you all the fuel you'd need at wide-open throttle, and when you get off the gas suddenly, you now have a cylinder full of fuel and no air, causing backfire and bad emissions.
A fly-by-wire throttle system avoids this situation by not-quite-closing your throttle completely, even though you've gotten completely off the gas pedal to change gears, allowing a moderate amount of O2 into the engine to manage the fuel-air mixture more efficiently. This is why we have rev-hang in almost every modern manual car.
It also works in reverse as well. When you stomp on the gas in an electronically-controlled-throttle car, you're not actually opening the throttle wide open immediately. The computer moderates the butterfly valve in a smoother way than you could ever do with your foot, getting that perfect air-fuel mixture, and avoiding choking out the engine.
However, all this being said, I still love my cable-controlled throttle on my '97 Miata... Wonder why that is.
I call the right pedal the “GOOOOO!!!” Button when I’m traffic.
Torque request in the perfect term. Thank you
just imagine if we can combine today's engine efficiency with 80s car lightweight body we can achieve 50 mpg easily without using hybrid drivetrain
Yet if you happen to get involved in an accident then freaking good luck.
A lot of cars have 50mpg or better.
Finally 😥 another episode 🔥🔥
Loves these vids!
Keep 'em coming. 👍
I've always hated on throttle by wire but I admit, I never once considered most of the points you made. I can definitely see the overall benefit now but it would be nice if you also included a few of the things you lose when ditching the physical connection with the throttle.
Excellent episode! I guess rev hang will be covered in another episode.
Great video