Is Norse/Viking "Paganism" An Outdated Term? | "Heathens," "Pagans," and "pre-Christians"
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- čas přidán 12. 09. 2024
- Ask someone to describe the "religion of the Vikings" and the majority of people will describe it along the lines of paganism, perhaps with a qualifying "Norse" in front of it. Some might go for a term that has become more popular among Neo-Pagans in groups such as Ásatrú, this being "heathen" which may be manifested in terms like "Norse Heathenism" or "Anglo-Saxon Heathenism" to name just two. More recently in academia these terms have been swapped out for the more scholarly-sounding "pre-Christian." This video is not intended to browbeat anyone or an attempt to achieve some moral high ground through finding endless problems with a set of terminologies, but rather to explore some of the topics laid out in a recent article by Paul B, Sturtevant (linked below), and gauge what you, my audience, would make of the matter. More to follow on this so I hope you enjoy!
Paul Sturtevant's Article on Viking Age Semantics:
www.academia.e...
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#Vikings #Pagan #History
Ahh yes we get to see Hilbert's beautiful face
U will get hearted
@@Veriox22 So will you
@@dabtican4953 no i won't. But u may get hearted as well.
You all get hearted it's Friday!
@@historywithhilbert146 Yeah Its friday! Why not get hearted on friday?
Edit: Senpai noticed me :-D
95% of comments: *Hilbert’s face*
5% of comments: *actually discussing about the topic of this video.*
Amen
I would like to comment about Hilbert’s voice at 16:05
"Huba huba what actually is the term?"
Only 5% of Hilbert's comments are about the topic of this video.
His thick eyebrows...
Must be a wise man.
It's quite the deception I promise you!
I live in the town of Heath in Massachusetts. Every time someone calls someone a "Heathen" makes me smile.
That's way out in the boonies. I'm also from Massachusetts, in Worcester County
Of course that's what it means lol...The sophisticated, "civilized" urban Judeo-Christian converts live in the cities, under the State religion and look down on the primitive, backward Folk that live out on the heath, (so out in the countryside) following the traditional culture.
The term heathen was indeed used to refer to Buddhists, Muslims and Hindus. Semantics is a messy business. I think it is important to define terms when you use them, especially in academia, but an attempt at policing other people's language is a waste of time
woah you're here
This isn't really about the vernacular use of these kinds of terms and trying to get random people on the streetl to suddenly understand that 'paganism' isn't a religion, or even a category of religions in a historical context. This is more of a discussion about finding more accurate and/or less misleading or weighted terms for academic purposes.
Running around trying to 'correct;' the natural evolution of word usage is absolutely pointless, but anyone trying to understand and discuss any topic in a more formal way should want to a void ambiguous language.
And Hilbert makes a really good point that it's especially important to be careful what kinds of words we use to categorize people and cultural groups when the goal of that discussion is trying to understand said culture in it's own right.
I wonder, wasn't it just like the difference between "us" and "them"?
Ah yes, Chadbert is back. It’s a rather interesting question, and I think that Sturtevant had the right idea for an academic context. It’s a bit long winded for casual speech, but I’m sure a proper term will be coined at some point
The format is great. I would definitively enjoy videos like that!
Thanks for the feedback I'll keep it in mind!
I clicked on the vid to see if there were any comments talking about Hilbert being a chad... was not disappointed lol
Just like the simulations..
I wish we could be friends in real life. We’d be two peas in a pod. Much love, from Minnesota.
Very kind of you! Hopefully one day our paths will cross nonetheless!
Even more love from Minnesota
someone has been smashing the gym recently
I'm not gay, but damn...
Absolute chad
Many thanks Chad
The eyebrow game is won 🔥🔥
I dont get it. Looks like a 5 to me.
@@baltulielkungsgunarsmiezis9714 Show us a picture of yourself? You must look like a god
Looks like this channel has a very big lgbt+ following.
Holy shit dude. I was not expecting you to be this good looking.
*fans self*
Also... I would be very interested in anything about the Sami culture/history and interactions with the Norse during the Viking and pre Viking era.
Hilbert says if you wish to learn about the Sami all all the information you receive must be in the Sami Language. .
Women: History is for nerds
Hilbert: *chadness intensifies*
The word heathen has always had a different meaning to me. My grandmother, from the US state of Alabama, always called me that as a kid when I misbehaved.
Your avatar and your handle are hilarious
@@D_Marrenalv Thank you
Same shirt!! One of us is gonna have to go home and change...
My man! Nice fashion sense ;)
@@historywithhilbert146 I'm shocked its not an orange shirt, but glad to see you're an All Blacks supporter!
Thirsty comments - I wish I was different, but Hilbert is darn attractive, I can't concentrate
This is also the reason why a professor in university told us to refrain from 'paganism' and try to use the terms Greek or Roman polytheïsm for the 'classical' religions of the Greeks and Romans. I think the modern view of non-christian religions is way to much coloured by (our) christian pasts and therefore everyone seems to think that every form of ritual had to have an explicit meaning and belief assiocated with it. I think it is more useful to see those non-christian practices as orthopraxy instead of orthodoxy.
Our Christian Past? Perhaps in Britain. The elites used Protestantism to subjugate the Brits, now that British Protestantism is moribund the elites are using Islam. Not happening in the US.
@@JamesMartinelli-jr9mh I do not really get what you mean. Almost all accounts of Norse polytheism were written down by Christian people (and before Protestantism was a thing) and are therefore very much seen trough a Christian view of religion. This view of religion is based on the belief in certain doctrines/'truths' (which are written down in the holy book). A medieval christian probably really did not understand the Norse polytheism very well with its focus on rituals rather than belief. This still is the case for the 16th or 19th century historian, who was most likely a christian (Protestant or Catholic) and thus still were seeing Norse religion in a Christian belief-oriented view. It is only in the last 50 years that we are starting to try to understand the non christian religions in non christian terms/concepts. What this has to do with the US or Islam I don't see.
@@arnevlerick064 Yep. I don't want human sacrifice - practiced by the Germanic pagans and abhorred by the Ancient Romans.
@@arnevlerick064 Well... there are some islamic records of the norse. Granted not as common as christian records but there are some.
James Martinelli so what was Gladiatorial combat if not human sacrifice? It was done to honour the Gods after all.
Hahahaaaa! Funny how these days being sensible with semantics or specific in terminology, can sometimes be misconstrued as pandering to sensibilities or pushing a certain social agenda instead of just being a tool to conduct a more concise conversation. Cheers *8 )
I saw this video and immediately went away and read the paper, I found it incredibly interesting and hadn't thought about how naive I had been when using these names in my essays. It was really interesting to come back to this video after reading the article to see your take on this area. Thanks for another great video, I hope you're enjoying your lockdown in Cambs!
I have heard similar arguments to promote the term "Hellenic Polytheism" to replace "Greek Paganism"
Why not Hellenic "Religion"? I see many scholars are very reluctant to use a broader conception of "religion"...
@@Tabuleiro. You make a good point.
As a Germanic pagan, I don't really mind Pagan or Heathen. In academic studies and technicalities a very... Non bias ? Name for the faith maybe needed. Polytheism is a term I like, and I may use it, but it seems a bit long winded.
What are your feelings on Ásatrú as an encompassing name?
@@theloniousswitzer6258 I personally don't mind it, but it seems a good deal in our community don't like to use it. Because to them, the Ása bit gives the impression of only worshipping the Æsir side of the gods, when there's the Vanir and a few Jötnar who they deem worth worshipping. When I read this book called 'Norse myths', which is a book which basically analyses the gods and myths and what not, the book says it does not mean to only believe in the Æsir, but means more along the lines of 'the gods' or something. I might need to look it up again if I can be bothered. I think Ásatrú is probably going to be the official term when it comes to potentially signing on official and semi official papers what faith you have. But like I said I don't mind, I'm more of a "so long as you understand" kind of guy. Thanks for asking.
@@elliot4402 And we must not forget that the belif in Æsir is the old germanic godsbelif-system, but the norse(at least, maybe others aswell did)also belived that there was a second group of gods; The Vanir, and they where...I think all of them, linked to the worship of the earth, rebirth, growth, fertility. All of the things that the "old" folks of Europe worshiped...when the Indo_europeans arrived. So I belive that Scandinaviance had a truce with the existing pre- indo-europeans and their gods became our Vanir...those who take care of the repeduction of the world....Or..I can be totally of...:)
Would you say pre-Christian beliefs influenced Prussian Christianity
E. G the depiction of Michael the archangel as a war-God?
@@MrJarl66 I have heard of that theory. It does hold some weight to it I shall admit, but currently I don't believe so myself. Although perhaps when I get a lot more books about our faith, about all different aspects, I might change my way of thinking.
"The Old Norse Faith" works for me.
Should we call ourselves Futhark maybe?
Can we talk about how informative this video is
I really love the Norse religious(?) stories like the Völuspá and the other ones from the Poetic Edda. Also Hilbert 😳😳😳
Great topic!
Glad you mentioned how some people’s were forced to become Christian at the end of the Viking age- this is such a deep
Subject, with many stories about conversions- what is the truth here?
Thanks Hilbert, the format is fine if you can’t get out and about, stay well🤗
I like this format! Anytime I get to see your face is a good time. That aside, it is quite an informative video too. Thank you Hilbert and keep up the good work
Very thoughtful and nuanced overview of the relevant terms! I'd personally suggest using the overarching term Germanic polytheism rather than Norse polytheism when speaking about more general characteristics, since the latter is a subset of the former. When discussing elements that are unique to a given subset of Germanic polytheism, it can be informative to specify the accompanying ethnic subgroup or subculture, e.g. Norse polytheism. Other than that, I wholeheartedly agree!
I am mesmerised by Hilbert’s beauty...matching that familiar voice with such an exquisite face...it’s a pleasant but odd experience. 🙂 I was very distracted by you Hilbert, so had to listen again with eyes closed 😀.
On that point of sacred space, the concepts of Kshetra (space/territory/field) and Kshetragnya (owner of the field /one who comprehends the idea if field) are often debated when discussing the extent and meaning of sacred space in Sanatan (Hinduism by its older name). These Vedic ideas have taken different meanings during the puranic and later medieval times. It continues to be a fairly discussed topic amongst the interested.
If I had to point to one essential difference in which the sacred space is imagined here in India, I’d say that it’s always seen as both external and internal. It’s not merely a physical space. This seamless connect of a prosaic word denoting a physical entity with the internal - is that also seen in other ‘pagan’ philosophies?
Came here for the content, saw Hilbert's beautiful appearance and got bowled over. I'm gay and damn! Intelligent and beautiful, Hilbert is the perfect combination......
Also I've friends who've converted to paganism (the don't like pagan as it's a monotheistic religion's derogatory term for those who don't view the world as them) and they just refer to themselves as Germanic or Hellene by religion...
Also thanks for making us drool Hilbert❤️
I agree that we need more specific terminology to describe different groups of people with different beliefs yet, at the same time I like pagan as a more general descriptor. I do agree that for some they may give the word pagan a negative connotation though for myself it just means non-abrahamic
Judging by the comments dealing with the academic and esoteric content here, it's clearly a good thing for a lot of these folks that you're introducing people to this information! Cheers mate!
Damn! You way prettier than I pictured. Very interesting discussion indeed. Didn’t know the origin for neither pagan nor heathen. Keep up the good work!
Good looking kid. If you "settle" and become a high School History teacher, you're probably gunna be in trouble... You should focus on field work and keep yourself safe ;)
Yup you already know if these school girls try to flirt and get with and fail. Knowing they can't have you they will try to ruin you, blackmail you, and yell sexual harassment. Not saying it will definitely happen but its possible.
Great video!
As someone who practices a reconstructed/revived version of Norse Polytheism, I personally think it's a matter of preference within that religious context. I definitely don't like the phrase "viking religion", and I personally don't like to use pagan either. The only one I use regularly to describe my faith is "norse heathen." Even then, I only use that as a term to describe myself to other heathens. When initially explaining my beliefs to others, I typically start by saying Norse Polytheist or Germanic Polytheist.
Now, in academia, I think Sturtevant's and your stance make a lot of sense! I think it is important to be as clear, concise, and unbiased as possible when trying to describe historical peoples and events, and terms like pagan, heathen, and pre-Christian might not accomplish that in the academic setting. There is certainly a lot of bias in those terms.
your eyebrows are more full than i pictured but aside from your hansomenss i needa thank you for the relaxing narration youve given us. thank you mate!
Let's be honest, you're videos are awesome and are decently edited but it's good to see your face fron time to time. So I suggest you keep the usual format as the dominant one but do indulge with this every now and then. Thanks for an awesome lesson.
First time on the channel and I must say I'm agreeably surprised at the quality of the content! Thank you for opening up this topic, I think that defining and questioning the terms we use is crucial when it comes to trying to understand paradigms so different to ours.
One implication of the term "pre-christian" that you did not raise is that there is a logical, natural chronological order in which religions happen, christianity being a natural later step than other religions, thus described as pre-christian. It all relates to a discourse about judeo-christian western culture (and thus religion) being more "evolved" than other systems of thought, and is therefore problematic in my view (particularly in cases where chistianity has never actually happened).
Finally about the term "Norse polytheism": some scholars argue that it is only relevant to speak of polytheism for a later stage of old norse religion that manifested only in certain place in Scandinavia (not being a scholar myself, I only have a basic knowledge of the question through one reference, Gunnell 2015). I'd be curious to know your thoughts on that work and its impact on the practice of calling this group of religions a polytheism.
I hope you find the time to read this (too long) comment and that you keep up the great work I'm discovering now!
I use the term Forn Sedr, which is Old Norse for "Old Way". Asatru and Heathenry I think are acceptable, but problematic in their own ways. I avoid the term Odinism due to it being a white supremacist dog whistle here in the US.
I've found the label Asatru to also be a dog whistle, if a less known one. Seems the white supremacists infiltrate anything associated with Odin. Maybe it's just a midwestern thing, but I don't think so.
Great video, mate. Definitely like this format. Think you'll start referring to "pagans" as polytheists now? Not sure it has the same ring to it.
Wasn’t expecting such thick eyebrows but I like very nice 👍👍
Hilbert mate, where did you get that shirt? I would like one. Thanks for the great historical videos!
6:05 sounds like me looking at Hilbert
Interesting video. I’m glad you highlighted the issue of who’s naming who, either insider or outsider. One thing to keep in mind is that the “endonym” for a group is often simply the word for “people” and have special names for the others. You’re correct in saying “pagan” and “heathen” were “exonyms,” imposed by outsiders. Contemporary adherents of these religions, or modern versions of them, use both terms though those that follow the Norse path usually prefer “Heathen.” A much better and more neutral descriptor is “Earth-based” or “Nature-based” spirituality. These terms also facilitate comparison with other indigenous religions. The term “pre-Christian” is accurate but is more found in the academic context and not as much by current practitioners. The Norse paths use the term “Asatru” which is actually in current official use in Iceland. I’ve also heard people describe themselves as Odinist. I think the phrase “Norse polytheism” is the best, as you note. In any event, nice job clarifying a complex issue. [PS, nice silver fern pattern on your shirt, Kiwis would love that]
It is an interesting thought. I do not mind the idea of it really as Norse Polytheism is more descript. and may actually start using the term Celtic polytheism to describe my own belief set. I have used the terms druidism Celtic paganism, or Celtic pagan in the past. I will have to think about it
As someone who practices this religion, I prefer the term "Germanic Polytheism" since that isn't derived from a term that was intended as an insult nor does it imply that Europe was somehow just waiting to be Christianized. Also, screw bigots trying to rub their stink on Viking symbols. Runes aren't racist!
Growing up in Sweden, we always refer to it as 'Asatro', I think I've heard somewhere that in English you would say Asatru.
Asatro roughly means 'belief in the Asar' and Asar are the Nordic Gods/deities such as Oden and Tor etc.
I personally have always said Asatro and I personally feel this is the most accurate cos to talk about polytheism etc also kinda make it seem like they are all Gods, but it's different as Asar are a bit different, I find theism to be very God thinking and thinking of one almighty God or a few almighty Gods, whereas Asatru depicts so much more than just one set of 'Gods', we have giants and dieties that symbolises different things rather than almighty Gods or a singular God that kinda 'rules it/them all' (yes, I'm hinting at Sauron here too lol).
Anyway, I am not a scholar, but I grew up learning about the asatro all through my childhood, both with sagas at home and at school and I personally would think Asatro or the anglofied "Asatru' would be to most suitable one :)
Is there a reason why the word Asatro isn't used?
Love the topic though and thanks for a great video :)
Wouldn't Norse or Germanic polytheism be the most straightforward way of referring to it?
Thanks for the video and the link. It is really helpful for those of us who are interested but not in academia to be made aware of current issues in the field. PS is your heating turned up to the maximum seeing as you are wearing a short sleeved shirt?
I think in some areas of the world (for instance the bible belt in the U.S.), the word 'pagan' literally means 'of the devil' or is synonymous with 'satanic' in people's imagination. I like the concept of using Norse poly-theism to describe pre Christian Norse customs/culture and will adopt this for future references. I learned something new from you (again): the descriptor Heathen as in dwelling on the heath. Thanks for this! I always walk away from your videos with full pockets. Also... nice to see your face!
"Pre-Christian" isn't just teleological, it tells you nothing about what the religion actually was. It wasn't Christian, but what was it?
Heresy and blasphemy
Epic maybe do a vid on the Sami if you haven’t already
I have been "Pagan" for 30+ yrs. I've always since a small child been a natural animist. Last day of 1st grade my teacher told us grass was alive. I refused to walk on grass for the entire summer and would speak to it. Lol. Anyway, at 16 I committed to my ancestral traditions. I'm of Essex/East Anglian English descent with a touch of Danish on one side and I am Swedish on the other side. My beliefs evolved over the years from just "Norse Paganism" to something that encompasses every corner of the "Germanic" spiritual structure. I have always called it "The Old Ways". That feels right to me. Online for people I don't know I'll use Pagan or Heathen as a way of describing my belief. But irl I never use those words, or the others of late. I keep it simple and call it "The Old Ways". On days I'm feeling myself and wanna be a lil sarcastic I'll call it "Forn Sidr" if asked what I believe. Sometimes even go heavy on the first syllable and roll my R's. Ahahahahahaha. But seriously, there isn't much on what we called it back then. Most believe we didn't call it anything because to us it simply....Was. And that is perfectly fine. Why do we have to label every damn thing. Anything under the Germanic Umbrella should be for societal classification "Germanic Polytheism". Even Asatru falls under it. So we should be using it as a group identifier and banner to follow that will have gov't's acknowledge us same as the Abrahamic faiths or hinduism and Buddhism. We don't need their love or promotion. We just need equal rights and protections as everyone else. But to us and among us, ourselves...it should just BE. We don't need to call it a damn thing. Sad reality is the majority of people who call themselves "Pagan" or have interest in it will not be here in 5-10 yrs. I know a few will tell me to kick rocks and how they'll always remain true to the Gods, lol. But I know after over 30 yrs of this that you will not be a believer of the old Gods of whatever part of Europe your people come from. You just won't. You'll lose interest because it will be hard to learn let alone practice with any regularity. And no matter how much it pulls at you, and it will, you will abandon it. The difficult of learning in any cohesive fashions combined with the lack of national and/or global fellowship of any real religious zest will wear on you. I seen it literally countless times. Especially with people who came from wicca. If that hurts to read.....Good. Maybe it'll put a boot in the ass of some people who may actually stick with it and carry on our ancient tradition and knowledge for another generation. And to those who don't....oh well. I feel bad this is a bit...raw, but I will always speak what I know to be true. We both deserve that much. Look, if you really want this the best advice I can give is start fresh. KNOW NOTHING. Then go from there. Avoid dogmatic, self important preachers who will call themselves "Gothi". Don't fall in right away with any group. Don't force feed yourself but set aside 15 mins a day, every day to read something about our old ways. Havamal, Voluspa, stuff like that to begin. And don't beat yourself up if you get bored here and there. You will have down times. You may even go months without thinking of it. But when you catch yourself don't blow it off. Get back on the horse right then. 30+ yrs of this and folks, I'll never look back. I love being what I am.
Damn Hilbert, can we get some content between all the adds!
Seriously though, good vid, agree that pre-Christian is too teleological and also doesn't take into account the transitional nature of conversion.
Didn't realise CZcams had automatically placed about 5 ads on this video! My apologies! Should be fixed now.
@@historywithhilbert146 hey as long as the content is still good I don't mind so much, might have gotten lucky that they were skipable too!
I'd be glad to have a chat about research I've done on Scandinavian transitional graves in England if that's of interest. Not sure if you've done a video on it before
I never call myself pagan (Im not someone who practices norse religion, tho my family does pride ittself on having resisted the crusaders and chrystianity and stayed true to our gods to this day). We dont actually have a name for our religion, we still expect that every member of our nation should follow it despite most being chrystian or atheist these days. If anyone forced us to name our relgion we would say latviešu ticība (latvian faith) or latvju ticība (latvish faith), dievturība (goldholding) would be nice but its already taken by strange neopagans, we have little association with despite them claiming that they practace the same religion our common acestors did (tho on religion surveys I have answered dievturis, its only because those asking the questions will understand as dievturība better than if I say other religion).
The diference between dievturi and my family religion is this, they practice the rituals our ancestors once did and dress as people once did sing folk songs and use the old ornaments and pray to every god in the panteon, where as my family practices the meaning more than the surfice apearence we see the world as created by one god who is all knowing all lowing and the source of all good in the world and we do not fear death for all power comes form him and to him all shall return and we are pragmatic we wear no crosses of our god for we must show our devotion trough action not trough wearing a neckless and we will not buy hens to sacrifice rather we will only do so if we have hens and we want to eat them we are way more pragmatic. You see they are trying to set up an organized religion that replicates what people did back in the day, while as my family evolves somewhat we remove that what is factually wrong and add things that are important to us now.
I use heathen og the danish asetro for convenience even though my beliefs are more of a cultural interpretation of science. But historically i only know of one term i found while reading Egills saga i think. Someone was described as "blótmaðr míkill" A great "sacrifice man".
Anyone one else thought hilbert was a nerdy white kid and then it turns out hes a playgirl model..
Great job man keep it up
Thank you!
When you come for the gorgeous face, but you stay for the interesting information! Interesting way of thinking, however, I am unsure wether the (same) negative connotation still applies today, so I do not see any problem with using those terms.
I'm studying history in college right now and there are some very interesting things I'd like to share with people. I'm just wondering, how did you get your channel off the ground? How did you get your first few viewers? I just have no idea where one would start.
Loved the format, allows some serious topics and thoughts/arguments to be astutely expressed.
Makes a change basically 😉
Ik gebruik eigenlijk altijd de term "natuurgodsdienst". Voor de gelovigen gebruik ik "aanhangers van een natuurgodsdienst". Het duurt wat lang om te zeggen, maar ik vind het een betere term dan "heidenen", waar voor mij veel negatieve Christelijke gevoelens aan vast zitten.
Modern Norse Pagans(which I am myself), will often go for Forn Sidr, meaning 'Old Ways'. Though theres different names for those subtypes which venerate certain God's above others. For instance, the largest Norse Pagan group are the Ásatrúar, who follow Ásatrú, Icelandic for 'belief in the Aesir God's'. Then you have Vanatrú, 'belief in the Vanir God's'. And finally Rokkatrú 'belief in the Jötnar' or Jottuns(who btw are just another Clan of the God's, though the mightiest of them may reach huge sizes, the average Jottun is the same size as an average man, their name actually means 'devourer' for they were quite warlike and bring about Ragnarök in the coming times in their war with the other two Clans of the God's). And that's just the names, there's also three branches of mentality that Paganism in general has. But that's beyond this particular context..
I always grew up in Sweden thinking it was called Asatro and not peganism...:) That's what we learnt in school and at home when we spoke about the old sagas and sets of beliefs :) never heard about it being called polytheism really until recently in videos from US and UK etc. as it is more than just gods in the way that other cultures think about gods, we have giants and other dieties, it feels like so much more than just a set of Gods, so simplifying it with theism feels not good enough somehow for Asatro.
The one I like the most is how "Barbarian" originally referred to the Persians.
The Romans called any non Roman culture barbarian. Which is funny because it was the Greeks who started using the word first to describe any non Greek speaking people, including the Romans.
@@SarahGreen523 I was just about to say that. The romans called Norse men/Vikings barbarians.
I like this kind of format. I would also love if these would come in podcast form like in Spotify or whatnot. I have a job where I sometimes am able to listen to stuff while I work and I'm a big consumer of historical podcasts.
Well done bringing this issue to a wider audience! Here's a thought: (n.b. I share your position overall). In the context of modern "pagans" living in Abrahamic-dominated countries, their own use of the word "pagan" may have the intent of subverting the language in defiance of the dominant culture. A similar example might be the use of "queer" in the gay rights movement. As usual, context is crucial.
In terms of understanding the commonality between different "pagan" belief sets, which albeit very different, stem from similar observations of nature and man's relationship to it, I'd recommend picking up a copy of The Golden Bough by James Frazer (a fellow Cambridge man).
However I appreciate you probably don't have time to take book recommendations with your current workload (believe me, I've been there and share your pain).
Interesting discussion. As a (Christian) Classicist, I took issue with a similar matter from a different angle on a university module on ancient religion. Religion was an unsuitable term to describe Greco Roman polytheism, early Christianity, Judaism, the mystery cults such as Mithraism, as all being the same kind of thing. They don't at all seem to me to be the same, in form or function. So I took issue with the fundamental of the paper, which subscribed to a modern (Enlightenment) view separating the world into secular and sacred/religious space, and treating religious space as equivalent. Charles Taylor has written lots about this topic, and he may be of interest.
Separate, small issue - etymology of polytheism is Greek poly ("many") and Greek theos ("god"). No relationship to Latin, and though commonly believes otherwise, Greek theos and Latin deus are etymologically unrelated!
Thanks for the video
I thought it was just called Asatru. Literally meaning True to the Asir. Which would be perfectly acceptable right? It would describe the beliefsystem well and it would encompass Norse and German polytheism which are virtually the same thing
Bro this is the weirdest things, only two days ago did I discover modern Germanic paganism and I've actually been considering converting, and then I get a notification for this, it's either a weird coincidence or a sign
you are not alone, it has been on the rise since 2015.
@@possemis I'm gonna take this as a sign that a youtuber I've been subscribed to for years makes a video about it now
CZcams algorithm
Check out Survive the Jive for more on paganism if you're interested in it
Check into Robert Sass and historical reconstructionist Heathenry. He has a website Aldsidu and a Saxon Heathenry FB group that also covers Norse, Anglish, and Germanic Heathenry. It's probably the best source out there for those who want to practice what our ancestors' culture with everything cited by referring to the sources and records. Most modern versions are completely made up assumptions with little proof, and blend Wicca and Celtic beliefs merged with Germanic Heathenry. I highly recommend you seek out Robert Sass. He even has a channel on youtube where he teaches Germanic/Saxon/Norse Heathenry.
shamanism is a good term, also I think shintoism is modern equivalent to alot of these non monotheistic religions that at some point were all over the world where there are people, shamanism folklore mythology also varying degrees of storytelling dogma, before that we had phychic non verbal religions that's who built the pyramids... Sorry I wasent paying much attention to the video while writing this, seems like a good etymological study👍🏻
Excellent video. It’s worth always watching whatever kind of video to do. You have a brilliant ability to explain without talking down to people.
May I ask a question? Do you have an “only fans” site?
Great shirt! The video is decent as well haha
Thanks, this helps me thinking about Peublo people in the Southwestern US, their ancestors and how Christianity has been adopted. Visiting their ancient villages and gathering places has always impressed upon me that they really haven't become different people.
The term 'norse polytheism' would in Norwegian translate into 'Norrøn flerguderi' - which makes sense, but sounds a bit derogatory in our language. 'Norse beliefs' would translate more neutrally as 'Norrøn tro'. But there is a catch: the prefix 'nor-' is unclear. It could stem from the direction 'north', but could equally refer to the coastal god 'Njord'. In medieval times, those living along the fjords(like me) and on the western coast would call themselves 'normenn', (among other things deriving the given name Normann - still in use today), while referring to those living on the eastern side of the 'langfjell' mountain range as 'austmenn' (eastmen). These days we refer to each other using all four cardinal directions, but that is a modern phenomenon.There is simply no way of knowing whether the term 'Norwegian' refers to people of the north or people of Njord. 'Seidr' was considered a practice for women, and only powerful men could get away with practicing it, although even they would suffer some ridicule (at least behind their backs) for dabbling in female crafts ;) Great channel . another video with lots of food for thought.
Hi from NZ, I like your shirt! 😁
Interesting channel. I like your choice of topics. I will use Norse polytheism instead of pagan in future. You have a convincing argument.
I don't see much problem with the term pegan, so long as you are specific. Maybe combine "pegan" with another term. For example, you can say "Aztec-pagans" or "Norse-pagans".
i have to say hilbert, i've never in my life seen a comment section full of straight dudes so thirsty for a bloke hahaha, class vid as always mate
They're not str8
@@D_Marrenalv not anymore
Poor Hilbert, getting wolf whistled in the comment thread. I must be the only one who watched his video of a trip abroad with a very pretty young lady, and already knew he was easy on the eyes. Concentrate people, this is an academic discussion! 😎
Very good points. Outside of academia, I suspect it would be too difficult to change the use of terms. Especially, with the modern revival of Pagan practice (which also covers a wide variety of beliefs including atheo-pagans, christo-pagans, wiccans, druids, eclectic, etc).
I practice the faith you're referring to in this video and the term I use to describe my belief system is actually none of the terms you used in the video.
I am an Ásatrúar and I practice Ásatrú. I prefer that term because it is Old Norse for "true to the Æsir." Ásatrú doesn't have any of the derogatory connotations or ambiguity of Pagan, Heathen, or pre-Christian. Ásatrú also sounds more like the name of a religion practiced by actual people rather than Heathenry (sounds flippant and derogatory), Paganism (still kinda derogatory), or Norse Polytheism (sounds overly scholarly/historical/sanitized rather than real and lived)
In Norway we usually refer to the norse belief as Åsatru (Litteraly Aesir-belief) or Norse mythology. We also sometimes use hedning (heathen).
@@oiawoo9168 They are mostly seen as a little weird, though they are accepted. We are mostly a non-religious country, so few people really care.
love this topic-interesting perspective! bless you for educating plebeians such as myself :)
The terms “pre-Christian” or “pre-Christian era” seem primarily historically descriptive and not necessarily prejudicial. Our year numbers are referred to as BC or BCE and AD or CE without being problematic for most people.
I agree that, as an attempt to describe a major cultural shift, it isn't intentionally prejudicial,. We can talk about pre-roman Britain as the place as it was before the romans invaded (or colonized), but describing the Britons as 'pre-romans' is pretty awkward and would muddy the reality of the effects of occupation. So, when talking about people specifically, 'pre-Christian' implies that conversion to Christianity was a natural and/or inevitable evolution, and that these are finite and mutually exclusive categories (they may be from the Christian perspective, but not in many belief systems)...that the only reasonable outcome from contact between Christians and people of other belief systems is the adoption of Christianity.
As Hilbert touched on, it also implicitly minimizes or denies outright, the importance of 'pre-Christian' culture. Names of that style suggest that the thing describe can only be (or is only worth) noting in comparison to something known (or of greater value).
So, for example, it would be unthinkable for an American to use a generic term like non-American to describe either the Japanese people or a Japanese citizen. It's technically 'true' but suggests that nothing about that person or culture matters but that they aren't in THIS group. Even the word 'foreigner' has fallen into disuse in most contexts because the connotation is vaguely minimizing or even hostile...and let me float for your imagination, someone trying to use a phrase like 'pre-American' to describe a person or group of people.
While there are definitely practical limitations when words and descriptors from within a culture aren't known. the use of terms describing peoples and their beliefs via their 'un-ness' immediately creates a context of comparison that can be misleading, especially if the goal is to better understand and investigate the thing being described.
I love your shirt and glasses bro, great taste.
You make some interesting points. The problem i see, with a new term like 'Norse Polytheïsme', is that most people already know what 'Paganism' means in a European context. The other problem i have with the term 'Norse Polytheïsme' is that it excludes other area's in Europe that have or had the same believesystems in the past. It's my understanding that the Polytheïsme practiced in the past was mostly the same all over Europe, albeit using different names for the same deities, practices or rituals. But i could be completely wrong.
I am not a serious student of history.... just love it.
I liked it when you referred to a belief set / or belief system. in this instance, stick Norse in front.
Havent the word "pagan" become more of a postive term over the years? I bet if I asked my little brother (17) right now how he would describe a pagan it would positive compared to a guy who lived lets say 100 years ago. It probably also depends on where you come from, so people from Scandinavia have a more positive view on what their ancestors believed in than how a person from Spain have on Norse paganism.
Overall i dont like changing terms unless it actually helps understand something better or in order to reduce confusing/harm etc. Maybe it does help changing it for some, just not for me.
i don't have strong opinions on this, but i do always appreciate when terms are more specific, so it's clear what's being discussed. like you said, "pagan" and "heathen" are very broad terms that can mean many things based the context or our preconceived notions.
My first time listening to you via this very interesting video. Your presentation was excellent, thoughtful and balanced. This video content was interesting. instructive. insightful. illuminating. and even challenging. I'm a spiritual humanist progressive christian thinker. (9/18/22 Sunday)
Great eyebrows, great content.
Your eyebrows are incredible.
I’m not so sure about the usefulness of the term ‘polytheism’ as it has the same problems that ‘paganism/heathendom’ has. It is a term which the monotheists of Christianity and Islam use to denigrate other belief systems. But this makes a parody of traditional religious beliefs. Was the mono/poly distinction between god and gods particularly meaningful for traditional believers? It is very likely they see the gods as manifestations of a divine unity similar to the Christian trinity. We certainly know that concepts of a trinity exist for other Indo-European religions (e.g. Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva). The importance of ‘mono’ vs ‘poly’ is very different for speakers of a language which doesn’t have a plural form. ‘Do you believe in God(s)?’ doesn’t carry the same meanings as English with its built in implication of mono/polytheism.
Virtually every sentence in English carries information about number (singular/plural), even when it doesn’t matter. This exaggerates the distinction and diminishes other possibilities. What if God in Norse religion is like grain? The plural ‘grains’ expresses a plurality, the singular expresses both a singular and a plurality (as in grain harvest). Perhaps understanding it as a type of pantheism rather than a polytheism may do it more justice.
I think the term ‘Norse religion’ may be preferable, but like you I find the current terminology inadequate. The Christians’ descriptions of the religion of others left a lot to be desired and still does. When preachers talk about another religion, they usually conjure up a laughable parody which they then demolish knowing their followers will never check - the same technique employed by Donald Trump (fake news). We have to consider that the Christians’ descriptions of Germanic religions is much the same.
I'm sure my professor at uni would have a lot to say about this topic!
Hello Hilbert, I use the term HEATHEN. In fact, I constantly order items from grimfrost including shirts that proclaim 'heathen' as a badge of pride. If I am talking to a person who has no awareness of the topic, I will say "Germanic neo-paganism" to help them put it into a mental framework but if the topic persists, I introduce them to the term 'heathen.' By the way, I watch your videos but this is the first time I've seen you appear on the video, you are handsome! If I looked like you I'd probably conquer my own continent! ;-)
I thought "Pagan" worked quite well, certainly compared to "Heathen", which is more of an insult. However, for a long time I thought Richard Dawkin's "meme" was unnecessary, but after seeing it as an unencumbered new term that allowed generalization, with out any whiff of intellectual virtue (like "Concept") I now think it is great. While it has become popular, it has been mainly used to describe trendy concepts. Thay does not really diminish its value.
. A fresh new term to describe Polytheism would be quite useful if it rolled off the tongue as easily as "Meme". ("Plyme"?) No need to man up with "Pagan" if we can dump old baggage and start anew.
hi hilder very nice video
Do we know what they actually referred to their own religion as? I have yet to come across this information anywhere. Surely they did not call themselves Heathen/Pagan.
* I see you covered this in the video. I guess we'll never know.
In the video I mention there isn't a word that is used for religion as we mean it but that it was considered part of the broader continuum of life and society. The closest term would be siđr but this is closer in semantic space to custom or society as opposed to religion.
@@historywithhilbert146 yeah I literally just got to that part where you started to mention it lol.
I suppose they may have just said "I believe in the God's" and maybe having a fancy name for their belief system wasn't needed
I've often wondered if saying 'a nature religion' or "a naturalistic faith" or even a "pro-nature faith tradition" could be used by many who call themselves Neo-pagan Wiccan and so forth as the new umbrella term-- thus avoiding the problem of the connotations you describe for pagan and heathen. Of course you belong to a specific tradition. But the nature and naturalist terms seem still to accurately explain many of those common features among of the vast variety of non-abrahamic faiths- Now, they certainly have their differences too, and as people we so often insist on focusing on the differences. But getting back to a larger umbrella term for non-Abrahamic traditions that try to get to what was there before a large world religion took over and forced conversions, I think this tack of honoring nature and natural events (including magic ones) is accurate. Nature has a cruel side as well as a 'benevolent" side and this would also then apply to those of the left-handed path traditions as well. It's at least worth considering. I've met very few people who just say they hate nature.