Danger Mineral Wool - www.AcousticFields.com
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- Äas pĆidĂĄn 17. 10. 2019
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Mineral wool, building insulation, Rockwool, 703 are all building insulation. They are designed to keep your room warm or cool. They are not middle and high-frequency absorption technologies to be used in critical listening environments. They lack the proper rates and levels of absorption for music and voice and they are toxic.
EUToday Article on Mineral Wool:
eutoday.net/assets/news/Miner...
I do think glass wool is bad for your health, but when you say "Don't listen to the manufacturers, they are selling a product", I can't help but to think: Aren't you a manufacturer and aren't you selling a product?
We do not sell products where materials from our products are inhaled by our customers.
Rockwool installed in your walls and ceilings isn't being inhaled, it sealed away behind drywall. Properly installed duct work won't be pulling in fibers from that insulation either.
@@malikto1 He is activity teaching and shearing knowledge out of the goodness of his heart, wanting people to be safe and get good acoustics.. God Bless Him and his healthy functional and accurate products
And that's a good thing. However, it's always necessary to be accurate in the advice given. Mineral wool is simply not a health hazard when properly installed.
@@juanpablogomez9122 thats very naive, lol.
Not all mineral wool products are alike. The most popular brand, Rockwool, does not have either glass nor ceramic in the material. It's also been deemed non-carcinogenic by the international agency of research on cancer.
Fiberglass insulation, also a mineral, does have glass in it and poses greater risk of inhalation due to it's density and how easily it's disturbed or impacted. It also holds water, which creates a perfect breathing ground for bacteria and mold. Rockwool stays in place, repels water, and doesn't burn. The density deters rodent infestations, where as fiberglass can easily be pushed aside to create the perfect nesting place.
Rockwool > fiberglass insulation
I wouldn't recommend other manufacturers of mineral wool though, and would never recommend fiberglass. Foam would be the next best option in my opinion.
Why would you recommend a material type that has poor acoustical performance?
â@@AcousticFields dude i feel like ur whole channel is just bitching on how something cannot be done and in general bitch on low budget options and making me feel like you need 10 000 dollars to just start and there are no other options.. Dude tell me please what would you recommend? i read like 5 comments asking you for budged suggestions and u just turn their question around without answering shit...
@@AcousticFields Sorry, rockwool is very good at blocking sound. I built a house with it, and it was very very quiet inside. OP is on the money. It's fantastic stuff.
Correction: Asbestos was never "put on" baby powder. Baby powder is talc, which is naturally laced with asbestos. Nowadays, most baby powder is entirely corn starch to avoid this problem.
I dont know why people are still wasting time on this nonsense. This material type has health risks and poor acoustical performance. Where is the cost/benefit?
Does it really matter what the source of the toxicity is? Stay focused on the material type, installation instructions, and health warnings.
@@AcousticFieldsI donât know why you spread misinformation and are referring to asbestos at all.
In 2019 I build myself lots of large bass traps for my home studio using dense rock wool the same way as promoted everywhere on the internet. Then around 1 to 2 years later I started to feel uncomfortable in the room, first it was unusual fatigue, then I noticed that breathing in the room was unpleasant. I felt that the air was "heavy" and dusty, plus I felt dehydrated and built the habit of drinking a lot more water. I started to wage a war against overall pollution, and thought that most of it came from the outside because I lived in a large city (but lightly polluted compared to some other cities). I bought air purifiers and tried all my best but the problem was continuing to aggravate day after day. At one point I even started to get heavy chronic migraines and it was harder than ever to get to work and enjoyed what I set myself to do in the studio. I also noticed that the "smell" of the panels were more and more pronounced compared to what is was initially and came to the conclusion that the rock wool fibers were somewhat disintegrating into smaller pieces and coming out the panels. I started to make deeper researches on the subject and found that it was a natural phenomenon of this material and that's why it is supposed to be encapsulated within thick walls and not in a room, even if it is "protected" with some sort of fabric, cotton or plastic like some suggest, while still arguing that it needs to be "breathable" so as not to block certain sound frequencies. Well I can assure you now that if the protective layer is even slightly breathable, then mineral particules will eventually come out because they are very small and light and will float in the air, and fill the room for you to breath. One day I decided I had to dismantle the whole studio, trash all the bass traps, and move somewhere else in order to get in a cleaner environment. And god I feel much more better ! I have reduced the power of my monitors for small but precise Genelecs 8330A SAM with corrective GLM software for a more near-field setup, two sofas which jinf of serve as panels and absolutely no other acoustic panels excepts furnitures here and there. Also have a pair of HD650 (flat and warm) and DT990 Pro X (bass extended and bright) which are awesome to alternate with my monitors (no acoustics problem with those). I'd like to get a better acoustics but when I look on the internet most professional brands actually make their panels from mineral wool as well which is crazy !!! Never ever will I put any of theses materials in my home / studio. I realised now I intoxicated myself for such a long time (for actually no better results compared to now sound wise), but moreover, how many musicians are intoxicating themselves all day everyday plus their families because of this. Like you said in your videos these are big companies with lots of influencing and lobbying power. I know that one days this whole shit will blow up, like Asbestos or tobacco did in the past, and we'll have a big public health issue with home musicians and content creators as first victims, but also workers in the building industry as well.
czcams.com/video/KGkLPUXbPYE/video.html
While the education on the dangers of these materials is appreciated, I think we'd all appreciate some ideas on what to use instead of mineral wool/fiberglass if we're on some sort of budget. Based on what you've stated in the comments, would open cell foam in acoustic panels be the best alternative? Is it effective for stopping reflections or as a corner bass trap?
There is no such thing as a corner bass trap. By definition and under our current laws of physics, small room low-frequency pressure issues are produced at a minimum using two parallel walls. It is the whole wall by definition that is producing the low-frequency issues. The definition of modal pressure requires two walls that are parallel, not two parallel corners. Every treatment type used within a room is frequency/amplitude/usage dependent. There is no one size fits all. Fill out the info in this think. Lets take a closer look at your room issues.
www.acousticfields.com/free-room-analysis/
Foam can never be a corner bass trap. Foam does not absorb low frequencies. Low frequencies are a pressure wave that must be treated with a pressure based absorption technology. There are three main types to use depending on usage.
Real Sheeps wool
â@@AcousticFields dude i feel like ur whole channel is just bitching on how something cannot be done and in general bitch on low budget options and making me feel like you need 10 000 dollars to just start and there are no other options.. Dude tell me please what would you recommend? i read like 5 comments asking you for budged suggestions and u just turn their question around without answering shit...
I used to work with a bunch of researchers who did work in particulate monitoring as it related to human health. I spent quite a while quizzing them on fiberous particulates, since I spent a lot of time building parts out of carbon fiber and fiberglass. They told me the real thing to watch out for is inorganic fibers that are smaller than 2.5 microns in diameter. Those are the ones that make it past the natural defenses in the airway. Turns out most (but not all) woven fiberglass and all carbon fiber is well over that 2.5 micron diameter. Basalt not so much. It still isn't great to inhale anything, but it's that really fine stuff that we should probably avoid all together.
All of these health hazards, poor acoustical performance, but cheap. Pick your poison.
@@AcousticFields - foam is looking better every day. Layer up!
Thank you so much. I bought my home that Iâm renovating. Ripped some walls in the attic and was on the fence on rususing these mineral wool boards. You just made my mind clear. Thank you dearly
I wouldnât buy what this guy is selling. If you use proper PPE during install, you should have nothing to worry about. I just insulated my entire garage and attics with the Rockwool. If installed properly there is no risk of inhalation.
You are not understanding the point. We are discussing building insulation types used as an acoustical tool. People believe that covering building insulation types with fabric will protect them from air borne fibers. This is not the case. The material that you use to cover the building insulation with allows for air flow in both directions.
@@AcousticFields You are ignoring differences between crystalline fibers like Asbestos and non-crystalline materials like clay and rockwool. Medicine is based on evidence, not feelings.
@@sammiller6631 There was a time when people thought asbestos was safe too. All yall going to be watching tv in 20 years with some shyster attorney having a late night informercial saying "were you exposed to Rockwool and mineral wool insulation because you may be entitled to compensation!"
Would you have a problem with using it in walls behind vapor barrier as it is intended? Or just as a room treatment material where it is exposed to the air space?
This material travels in air so easily, I would stay away from it completely due to its health risks and lack of acoustical benefits.
I used Rock wool for my walls. It worked well and I donât see a problem with a well sealed wall
I hope you used a respirator when installing it.
@@AcousticFields no? Took like 5 mins to put it in the wall. We used foam spray for air flow leaks and filled in the gaps in the outlets
@@mattjrk5679 RIP
I enjoy reading much of what comes out of Acoustic Fields, but this posting perplexes me. When someone offers medical advice without a basis in medicine, biology, or materials science, and that advice does not agree with the body of peer reviewed knowledge, one wonders why. Is fear, profit, or something else the motive? There are "double down" statements in the comments that cause concern as well, with Acoustic fields confusing mineral wool, glass wool, and other fibers in one comment, equating mineral wool to smoking, and in another stating that absorption of music and voice is not the same as absorption of noise . For a company engaged in acoustics, that is simply misleading. Noise is unwanted sound considered unpleasant, loud or disruptive to hearing. From a physics standpoint, noise is indistinguishable from sound, as both are vibrations through a medium, such as air or water. The difference arises when the brain receives and perceives a sound. There is no difference with regards to acoustics or the thermodynamics associated with absorption of noise and music or voice.
M, The difference between wave and ray energy treatment is the issue. Wave energy treatment requires a different material type, construction methodology, and a host of other variables. Ray energy is molecular velocity and its treatment is less complicated.
All acoustic energy is in waves. Only at extremely high audible and ultrasonic frequencies are the wavelengths short enough to propagate so directionally that they can be simply regarded as rays. To differentiate noise from speech and music as being ray energy vs. wave energy has no basis in physics, acoustics, or fact. Show me a peer reviewed paper that supports this, and I will retract. You sell product and have customers. There is no need to assert things that are untrue. Not only is it not ethical if deliberate, but if not deliberate makes people doubt the accuracy of true things you say.
Please recite the definition of OSHA "Breathable Fiber" and tell me what percentage of mat'l is below that
I understand you have 1st amendment rights, but really this has been the drumbeat since the 70's
You are free to believe what you like. material types that can be inhaled can not be welcome for lung tissue.
@@AcousticFields 3 microns x 7 microns is the magic number I believe.
I notice you didn't answer the question. Thing is, Some mineral has breathable fibers below that So some specialized pipe insulation, for instance, could be a concern for the installer.
I can't believe if the product is used for plenums that 3x7 fact was ignored by the designer. Also the problem is too many people think fiberglas is mineral when in fact it is molten glass bottles spun into "cotton candy" with a thickness that exceeds the 7 micron value. There has been 50 years of misinformation about this and OSHA continues to allow it's use
I think it would be helpful if you were to be more specific instead of condemning all products
Well, recent debates had both sides not answering questions, so I guess we shouldn't be surprised. Please be honest and tell the whole story
so essentially do not use 'rock wool' as a bass trap wrapped in fabric, but it is safe (or as safe as it can be) to be used as some degree of soundproofing? If you built a 4ft x 6ft vocal booth and used Rockwool between two sheets of ply, is this ok?
I'm trying to figure out if you are opposed to this type of insulation all together, or only when it is used as sound panels withs improper coverings? Thanks.
F, These material types are not viable barrier technologies.
lets take this another way. What foam based product can you recommend, that doesn't outgas and has the same or better acoustical properties of owens corning 703 and or comfort board 80, at whatever frequencies these products work at?
Owens Corning lacks the proper rates and levels of absorption for music and voice. Most rooms that use this material type over absorb and sound too "dead". Our Studio Pro Foam was developed with the proper rates and levels of absorption for music and voice. You can see the absorption curves here: www.acousticfields.com/about/
Listen, there is way too much misinformation about the toxicity of fibrous minerals even among the "scientific" community. The danger from asbestos is because the airborne dust is acicular in shape (needle-like) and also of a very specific particle size which is both breathable and damaging to the cells in human lungs. There are a couple of other minerals which exhibit similar properties. However if the particles in a mineral product are not acicular OR are not in the the specified size range, they are no longer (as) dangerous. Vitreous materials are not crystalline and fragments are not generally acicular. All dust is bad for our lungs, but the information out there has to be scrutinized because a lot of it sounds sciencey but is wrong or incomplete.
Feel free to inhale as many fibers into your lungs as you desire. Here is the issue with these material types and many others. They all can produce health issues. If you are working with many material types then you have a cumulative effect of many materials over time that can add up to cancer or some other disease. I have seen this happen to my crews over the last 40 years. Liquids that we were told were safe, over time and consistent use turned out to be toxic due to their accumulative use. We do not allow these material types on any of our projects.
I feel like if you don't beat your absorbers with a baseball bat and inhale the fibers, you should be fine. Sugary foods are a much bigger long term health concern in my opinion. And, you can always wrap fiberglass in plastic to contain the fibers. Would still absorb the pertinent low end acoustics. Then put something 'safer' over it to absorb the high end if necessary.
@@AcousticFields . first, you didn't read their response and just went into defensive-mode. "All dust is bad for our lungs". the cumulative effects of the sun are also bad. same with petrochemicals like gasoline and oil. you're just another anti-science huckster selling snake oil.
Fiber Glass is bio-soluble, asbestos is indestructible. the micro phasha (probably misspelled ) that "eat" the outside stuff that goes into your lungs gets stuck open when it tries to consume the asbestos and the enzymes are caustic My simple understanding of the problem
@@AcousticFields this is such a disappointing reply to someone providing actual science. Why should I listen to someone who's counter argument is "feel free to breath fibres"....
Is it ok to use rock mineral fiber (Safe and Sound) inside the walls between the studs? Fully closed between drywall. Not for inside the rooms as absorbers.
K, It would depend on the preparations you have to make to install it. Use respirators and body suits.
@@AcousticFields Thank you
K Rider Owens Corning THERMAFIBER offers a higher recycled content a cross the board, even formaldehyde free.
Yes it is safe to use in wall cavities and attics. Eye protection, and work gloves and an N95 should be used during installation. No need for a body suit.
Great video, very interesting. I have what is essentially a small concrete/concrete block room, walls, ceiling, floor, everything except the door is cement. There are small cracks in the concrete work above and around door. Any suggestions to fill these in order to keep sound from escaping? Would the waterproofing paint, Drylok, work to some extent or will this be insignificant?
I would use a concrete fill material that will adhere to concrete over time.
Thanks. For the warnings. âŠ
What would a Good alternative be for a Mixing Studio Setup - Music Instrumental, Vocals and Recordings.
What are the dimensions of the room? What pressure levels will you be working at?
@@AcousticFields Not too loud, just Normal mixing Levels, I'll be Mastering Occasionally in the room.
I normally only write positive and encouraging comments on videos that I watch, but this one really bothers me - and has bothered me for a couple of days now. In my opinion, you would be better off sticking to your field of expertise and maintain credibility in that area rather than venture out a lose all credibility. Promote your products of their merit alone and not fear mongering or spreading misinformation about other products. Here is one video from an expert in his field:
czcams.com/video/MSJjipaPxUE/video.html
No lobbyists of governments. Yes, industry funded but I am assuming, like you, scientists also need to eat and don't like working for free and companies need to higher experts outside of their expertise.
The 8 years and 2 million that you have spent developing your foam products certainly places you in a conflict of interest on this topic. As a consumer, these kinds of video actually drive me away from your product, which may be very good, because I do not want to support a company that uses these kinds of tactics to promote their own products.
You are free to make your own decisions regarding this material type. However, due to the toxic nature of the material type and the poor acoustical performance, we must ask once again, where is the win?
Do you have any experience with or information for use of sheep's wool as insulation or sound absorption ?
P, I do not but it warrants testing as an alternative to toxic mineral wool and fiberglass.
Exactly the question I was going to ask! I have some natural wool insulation in my home now. I don't recall the brand. Here is a link that may begin to shed some light on the subject.....
havelockwool.com/?Website+traffic-Search-3&hsa_src=g&hsa_kw=wool%20insulation&hsa_mt=e&hsa_cam=8264971907&hsa_grp=83302630297&hsa_net=adwords&hsa_ad=413449749089&hsa_ver=3&hsa_tgt=kwd-599246547248&hsa_acc=3434447461&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI28L-lMzm5wIViobACh2f9g0NEAAYASAAEgJTWvD_BwE
Hi Denis! I was wondering if it would work well if I put Roxul comfortboard 80 3" thick in the BDA DIY. It's sealed, right? So it shouldn't be harmful to me.
R, We do not recommend working with toxic materials.
@@AcousticFields What is "toxic"? in your view. What LD50? What threshold for carcinogens? Is water toxic? How about oxygen? (Hint: both can be - at well researched levels).
@@marcbacon1 Pick your poison. Please feel free to inhale as much of this material as you like.
R, This material type lacks predictable rates and levels of absorption.
What are you recommending for a light weight wall insulation that's not toxic if it burns and won't rot ore mold when wet?
We do not get involved with BTU retention. You will have to consult with local codes and ordinances regarding heating and cooling insulation issues.
I have just chosen rockwool over fiberglass for my insulation because it is much less dangerous than fiberglass. Also,it is waterproof so no mold or fungi will grow on it if moisture penetrates the drywall. Mine was actually way more expensive than fiberglass. Roxul is a basalt rock base rockwool with slag being on the bottom end of the manufacturing. I am not saying run around and roll in this stuff though!!!
This material type is for BTU retention. It is designed to keep your room warm and cool. It was never designed as an acoustic tool. It lacks the proper rates and levels of absorption for music and voice.
@@AcousticFields What do you use instead that has better absorption?
@@narrator-timothymckean There is no better or best material type. You must look at the room usage, pressure levels used within the room, and frequency range. You must apply the proper rates andc levels of absorption to your room usage. There is no one size fits all room usages.
The recent research ive seen has that rock wool is more dangerous than glass wool. Either way ots not something id want floating around in the air in my studio.
@@scottsmith4145 "Research on Cancer (IARC) has determined glass filaments, glass wool, rock wool, and slag wool to not be classifiable as to their carcinogenicity to humans", and that's from www.epa.gov/sites/default/files/2016-10/documents/fine-mineral-fibers.pdf
What research did you do where you skipped over established science and peer-reviewed work tested by govt regulatory bodies in the US, the EU and China???
Literally, all the science has resulted in dis-proven myths and it's DECLASSIFICATION as a carcinogen. The fibers are NOT insoluble, they in-fact dissolve within 30-50 days. There are literal tons of microplastics casually flying around, particles from the clothes we wear, poly and nylon that take exponentially more time to breakdown in our lungs that no one seems to care about.
Great video, thank you for sharing it!
For all of us DIY'rs what would you recommend as a healthy replacement for rockwool in a home music studio? Thank you!
It depends on the issues you are having within your room size/volume/usage. Remember there is no one size fits all. What issues are you having that require sound absorption technology?
@@AcousticFields Mostly early reflections as it's a 4.3m x 3.1m x 2.3m room. So like most small room recording/listening home studios. Absolutely I totally agree it always depends but most of small rooms can become manageable with some cleverly positioned absorption. If you could point us to a healthy Rockwool alternative the CZcams community would be eternally grateful.
We do not subscribe to any of those material types. We have used them in the past but were dissatisfied with their performance. This is why I created our carbon and foam technologies that are designed specifically for music and voice and not to keep your room warm or cold..
@@AcousticFields Is there any DIY alternatives you can suggest? (There is no way i can purchase from you or find anything except foam absorbers scammer companies in my country).
It depends on many variables. Stay with open celled foam. It is the most economical and safest.
Hi, letâs say I use Rockwool as insulation and sound deadening for a camper van, install using a respirator, seal it behind plywood panels, and vacuum after.
Are there any reasons then you still wouldnât recommend it, and if so what would be my best alternative? Thanks
This material type is toxic to be around. Examine the installation instructions. Look at wool as an alternative.
Can you clarify 'rates and levels of absorption'? Are you referring to the absorption coefficients?
Rate is the amount of absorption at each frequency. Level is how low the technology absorbs down or up to. Look at the rates and levels of our foam compared to others. www.acousticfields.com/about/
You keep saying "Why take the health risks for poor acoustical performance." Some potential answers: A. It seems like "the health risks" are not as substantial as you suggest. B. The acoustical performance seems to be quite good... or at least "good enough" in a cost/benefit perspective. C. The cost of the solutions with "no health risk" and "superior acoustical performance" is so many multiples above the "risky" stuff that it is hard to justify.
You must minimize your health error rates in the materials that you surround yourself with and breath. If you are happy with high health risks and no real low end absorption solutions, then you have found your formula.
Hi. Thank you for the warning. What material do you recommend?
A, Open celled foam will produce rates and levels of absorption without air borne fibers.
@@AcousticFields so you substitute off-gassing foams that permeate everywhere in lieu of rockwool? I'd reconsider. Have you wool insulation?
you can always let them off gas for some months outside, problem is no matter how dense foam is, it will never serve as bass trap because of the low rates it has, and bass absorption is literally the most important one for untreated rooms.
@@blisssenseripzyzz4evermiri176 What do you think of alternating layers in a bass trap: dense material, not dense?
Thanks for your great video. I've literally just been looking at buying some panels which made with some sort of mineral wool (Isover PT80). I was very sceptical, good job I did some research first
Building insulation lacks the proper rates and levels of absorption for music and voice.
I was just about to invest in a full studio acoustic treatment with rock wool fibres that I was planning on making myself. I stumbled upon this video by accident while on a forum about comparing the focal shape twins and twin 6s. thanks for this informative video, you really have seemed to save my life with this. thank you.
Health risks along with poor acoustical performance, where is the win?
In the context of home design and health: it's generally always been the case that you don't want to mix fibrous insulation with conditioned space (including wall cavities), this is why exterior insulation with an air barrier is so useful (both from a physics and comfort level) and why all crawl spaces should be encapsulated instead of being passively vented. In this regard, fire and water resistant mineral wool boards are very useful for protecting the home on the outside while extruded foam boards like XPS and EPS serve to keep the roof warm and insulate crawl spaces without crumbling as the home settles.
In the context of acoustics: it's insane that people are using rockwool, it's shocking that that's the case. Why not use sheep wool?
It is best to use the proper rate and level of absorption to match your room usage.
Rockwool is not toxic and is very effective, even more than "Acoustic foam".
@@jrealm5464 Good to hear. Can you point to reasons that underpin the confidence of your assertion and and can you elaborarte on what you mean by "effective"? impact noise for exapmle?
@@jrealm5464 NOTE: Mineral wool was banned in the civil engineering of the USSR. It was regulated by law. Every construction engineer knew that mineral wool is a carcinogen and mineral fiber sticks inti lungs alvioles. Each building built for people in the civil sector underwent a state inspection before it was put into operation. This was an axiom.
***(I mentioned the USSR because the income of factories did not depend on the success of the sale of products. The entire economy was planned, all prices and wages were fixed. And that state needed healthy people).
I'll still use rock wool cubes in my garden for now, but they are never dry. Now carbon I can make in my sand filled kiln then add steam to activate, that may be interesting. Good heads up video, thanks you.
What if the 703 is wrapped in thick cotton? or even wrapped with thin layer of foam and then a layer of cotton over it? Surely this will keep all of the microparticles inside.
If the material that covers the insulation allows for air to flow through it from the outside in. If the air flow allows for air in, it also allows for air out. Air flow out will carry fibers.
So, what material do you use for your absorption panels?
All of that information is on our web site:
www.acousticfields.com/about/
Yes, I agree that any fibrous insulation is dangerous if used or installed without the proper protective gear. This is what should have been outlined. And him saying spray foam is ok is living in a fantasy world as in the example of a fire, the fumes given off by the burning spray foam will drop you like a bullet if inhaled. Yes, it is a good insulator and air sealer but if applied without the proper personal protection will kill you far quicker than rock wool or Mineral Wool. On top of that, uncured spray foam in your house can off-gas for a very long period of time making you feel ill all the time of this process.
O, Spray foam is not a sound absorption technology. All of these materials are toxic and should not be used.
Why would _any_ fibrous insulation is dangerous? It's crystalline fibers below a certain sizes that cause long lasting problems.
I'd use Rockwool on the outside of a building. There are other inorganic dusts used in the building trades that cause lung problems. Use a respirator.
I was about to put this in my damn studio thank god I look at this video before buying Iâm going with a different alternative someone in the comments said getting some denim insulation is really the best bet so I got me some đ
@@alien-hs1zn Cotton dust is actually very dangerous.
I still do not understand all of this banter regarding this material type. It lacks the proper rates and levels of absorption for music and voice. That's it. If it doesn't improve resolution, it must go regardless of other issues.
Thanks for the great video.
What is the replacement for this?
Y, It depends on your usage, the building codes in your area and a host of other variables.
sheepwool?
Rock wool is perfectly safe. This dude is just fear mongering.
Dennis what do you think about using Denim ultratouch instead?
S, What are rate and level of absorption?
@@AcousticFields "The NRC for R-13 UltraTouch 3.5 inch is 1.15 overall."
If true, this is a big problem. This mineral stuff is being installed in large public places. My church is renovating a large
performance hall that needs treatment, how do I convince them to spend triple on foam rather than cheap wool?
M, You do not have to use foam for large institutional coverage. There are other material types to consider. However, you will still see higher costs.
I'd love to look more into this. Are there any peer reviewed papers that discuss the transmission of microscopic particles through materials such as fabric? Admittedly, I am a from believer in insulation, and the effect it's had on my own personal studio has impressed everyone who has been in it. But I can't refuse good information. Thank you
D, We will be conducting such tests next year. You could research "air permeability"
If you are afraid that particles from rockwool will escape the fabric and get into your lungs, there is actually a way to contain them. :)
@Stimpy&Ren hmmm. Can you cite some sources?
@@jansensteve06 i thnk i've seen that manufacturing research too. It's outhere. But that's people working around this stuff moving in the air in the manufacture all day.
@Stimpy&Ren 15% doesn't mean very much if it is a relative increase
@acoutsic fields , Iv lived in in attic
They had a furnace with a hole ontop of it in a closet on the side , this hole blows air out, ofcourse my luck, this closed area has exposed fiberglass)I believe thatâs the insulation used) , itâs been like this since 2016.
When I first moved in I told everyone my eyes and Lungs felt irritated in the house when the ac or heat went on .
Do you think this could cause long term lung damage at this point? Or if addressed, this could be alright?
Iv seen you mention you seeing health issues arise in some people , if you were to guess , would you say this is still within the realm of being fixable for long term health? Just curious what you think.
I would consult with your doctor and have a chest xray or MRI. You need to establish a base line of any damage.
Question. I only have about $200 for bass traps right now. That will allow me to purchase "fluffy" fiberglass insulation in large rolls.
If I wrap each in garbage bags, then stack those in all the corners, then throw a large drape over them, will that get me decent Corner Bass Management for a very low cost? (I'm broke!)
The corners of your room are not your problem. It takes two parallel walls to produce an axial mode, not two parallel corners. Save your dollars to increase your budget to 5 K. This is the standard costs for our phase 1 of our DIY approach.
What about if you wrap them in plastic foil?
this man asking the real questions
i've already packed the structural walls and built traps filled with rockwool and fibreglass and perforated panels that are covered in fabric. Now considering covering the panels with foil instead of going mad redoing the whole fucking thing all over again.
Wouldnât that reduce insulation / sound absorption
I'm about to take down my tile ceiling in my basement and though it's not asbestos, I'm still using a respirator and an air filter and will have the windows open with a fan when I do. I'm also sending my wife and kids out of town (I'm also painting the ceilings black for my HT too). Once I'm done I'm replacing the filters in the air filter just to be safe (ill prob even blow it out outside with an air gun too). The simple fact is nothing is bad for you when it's on the market, until the dirty truth comes out 20 yrs later and it's too late. There is never a bad time to err on the side of caution because the companies that tell you their products are safe only care if you believe it, not if it's actually safe. I'll take a little hit in sound quality over a shorter life. Foam might not be the best for sound but it wont get in your lungs either.
N, Building insulation was never designed to treat music and voice. They are designed to keep your room warm and cold sealed inside walls. Manufacturers have taken this highly toxic technology and termed it acoustical treatment. Nothing could be further from the truth. If it treats anything, it would be noise not music and voice.
@@AcousticFieldsnoise is a humongous problem tho.
What sort of foam? Foams off gas. Saying thereâs no impact on the lungs from foams is misleading. Horses for courses; while using any sort of fibrous material in an uncontained manner has risks due to the potential of fibers becoming airborne and potentially inhaled itâs important to also acknowledge that VOCs are also not things you want to be breathing in. Ultimately, and sadly, we are surrounded by countless things that are harmful to long-term health in our daily lives.
Going to use Rockwool for sure now. Thanks for the clarification
Do not use any of this material type. It is the same beast in a different dress.
Dennis, What about denim insulation?
As cotton is the source, I presume itâs non-toxic, but what about sound absorption?
The issue with those material types is unpredictable rates and levels of absorption.
I only use this insulation on interior walls where they are encapsulated within a drywall wall.
Make sure you use a respirator when installing.
Is it still safe?
Every accoustic treatment expert I've listened to recommended rock wool or glass fiber wool. What do you recommend instead for building accoustic panels for a home studio?
R, Building insulation is toxic. Use open celled foams for middle and high frequency issues.
@@AcousticFields Okay, thanks. But what about low frequencies? Foam is not able to absorb / trap low frequencies as far as I know.
Go to check all his videos about it... they did a lot of work around this topic..
@@youtubewatcher2006 acoustic fields recommends and pioneers activated carbon low frequency devices, two diaphragms possibly of mass loaded vinyl or something and air spaces before a chunk of extremely porous and dense carbon material. Effective to 40hz
@@AcousticFields he just downplays rockwool and gives no credible alternative except his company. Right or not it comes off as disingenuous.
If the panels are made of mineral wool and all wrapped in nylon (to protect against inhalation) and over a nylon aesthetic canvas, do nylons affect some frequencies?
MM STUDIO of course: can you breathe through the foil? If not, it will have some impact on airwaves. Foils also do echoes.
Nylons will stop a man in his tracks but won't stop the fibers from getting through.
looks like I'm using plastic wrap around my rockwool because someone who does acoustics by trade said that it doesn't effect much except reflecting some high frequency so think covering it in some thin plastic wrap is good and the panels will still absorb low end and mids which the most important while high end is super easy to tame and you can put foam over your panels anyway.
Now you will need another product to absorb higher frequencies. Seems like the cost/benefit ratio is not working with this material type.
As we know, always where your ppe when installing installation, mixing mortar, sweeping floors in basement etc. Common sense
We find that there is no such thing as "common sense".
You may be correct about mineral wool, but I don't think saying carbon 12 is what your body is made of makes it safe. If your body is made of carbon 12, so is the cancer that would be in your body. There are plenty of things that are natural to the human body that can be harmful. I'm not saying your product is harmful. I'm just saying you are under a bias yourself. Being an expert in the physics of sound does not make you an expert in biology. In 20 years you might find someone like yourself bashing your products for causing cancer.
Any material type that has fibers that are made out of metal and fiberglass and those fibers are light enough in weight to be carried by air currents will go right into your lungs. Do your own research on these material types inside your lungs.
Carbon 12 is used to filter drugs from overdoses inside a human body. It is also used to filter air and water. Would you filter your drinking water through building insulation?
@@AcousticFields logic < manipulation
Anyone know if this material is equl or better sound absoberation on low frequencies comparing to rock wool?
Polypress:
www.schuimrubberbetaalbaar.nl/schuimrubber/polypress/polypress-sg-80-op-maat.html
Its more expensive than rock wool but cheaper buying from a sound abosobation from a retailer.
I want use it in a haul for my guitar amplifier like soundproofing in a double crate , that is not good?
No. Look at the installation instructions for this material type.
From Knauf's ECOSE product brochure:
_In the past, a label regarding the carcinogenic potential of insulation made from glass fibers was required on all packaging. Following forty years of research, glass mineral wool has been exonerated entirely. Glass mineral wool is comprised of fibers that are biosoluble, meaning that the fibers dissolve in the body in a short period of time and exit the body with normal bodily functions. The scrutiny glass mineral wool has undergone is now seen as proof of its safety._
H, You state: "fibers dissolve in the body in a short time period". What are these fibers doing inside our bodies in the first place? Are you stating that in order to insulate our homes for BTU retention we need to have fibers in our bodies?
@@AcousticFields In the case of thermal insulation-beyond the scope of this discussion-said fibers are safely trapped betwixt walls or beneath the exterior cladding. We're not talking about that. We're talking about dissipating acoustic energy with the panels semi-exposed, in which case there might cause for concern IF one was to beat the uncovered panels with a stick, shove one's head into the ensuing dust cloud and inhale repeatedly. But as these panels are inevitably wrapped in fabric and typically hang undisturbed how many fibers could possibly be floating their way into one's unsuspecting lungs? Not many, is my intuition.
H, â Hermiel I have been in the building trades for 40 years and have built over 250 rooms. I have seen what that material type does to worker's health. You can believe what you wish. I will take my 40 + years of on - site experience as my reference point.
Hermiel you donât beat them with a stick, but much more regularly with bass punches from music đ¶
Hermiel best not open any windows or turn fans on. There are many seemingly innocuous ways that fibers can be exposed. Thereâs a reason fibrous insulation material, whether mineral wool or fiberglass, was designed to be isolated from indoor environments.
Remember toadstools? Do NOT eat apples.
Hello, I stumbled on this video because I was trying to build an ICF house but realized it was too expensive. So I saw other videos on using mineral wool to insulate a home. If I use Mineral Wool on the external wall and Spray Foam Insulation on the internal there should be no issues with air contamination in the house?
R value is associated with thermal conductivity. It keeps rooms warm/cool. Building insulation has an r value assigned to it. You must do your research on the r value to use for your area of the country. Most city codes have minimums allowed. Thermal conductivity has nothing to do with sound absorption for music and voice.
@AcousticFields, ok, got ya. Thanks a lot for the info. But if all that stuff is dangerous, then what material we need to use for absorbing low end??? Any Recommendations?
You have to fisrt examine the frequency and amplitude of your issues and then assign the proper rate and level of absorption technology to deal with that particular frequency and amplitude of issue. There is no one size fits all.
@@AcousticFields Thanks! Will try to figure that out. Some measurement techniques will be required I suppose.
I welcome research into this subject and enjoyed your video. But I do question why there's no apparent connection between audio engineers and musicians who spend time near these ubiquitous products and lung disease/other associated health problems? If mineral wool style products can become agitated and shed fibers, wouldn't the moving of gobos in studios be spreading these things all over the place?
Why take the health risks for poor acoustical performance. You spend less to get less performance and more health risks. I do not understand the risk/reward ratio. No one has to this day done a very good job of that one most important truth.
Are you sure professionals are even using this? Or is it more like wannabe pro youtuber types?
I know guys who do insulation with mineral wool , they all having breathing problem and always coughs, I told them about dangerous of mineral wool but they don't care because they earn 3 times more then others in the construction sector.
They also do paint job, work with MDF, do wood finish, or metal finish etc. Almost all of them are hazardous to human, yet the construction people are still doing it.
Whats your thought on areogel insolation ? Or Aspen areogel
I do not know this material type.
what should you use instead that's safe ,,, thanks
Stay with fabrics and natural materials. make sure you know the rates and levels of absorption.
What is the safest and most effective alternatives for Owens and Rockwool for sound absorption purposes?
A panel of wood blocks. :-)
@@Hyper5nic If I wanted to make a diffuser panel of blocks, is there a software or a way to design it?
@@curtishustace There are a lot of DIY videos that show how to go about making a wooden diffuser.
I found this video to be most helpful
czcams.com/video/ABACqbuBz-c/video.html
Mark de Muze thank you. I believe my room is too small for a diffuser. 6x6x6.5. So I am going with sound adsorption. I was going to use 703 and mineral wool, but after this video I am NOT going to use those substances. Thx for the video. I was going to get a free consultation with you all but my budget is low so Iâll wing it until I can have some more $$âs to get your advise. Best to you. And yours.
@@curtishustace You're welcome Curtis, and even if you're on a budget, I'm sure you will find a good solution. ;-) Oh and by the way, the space I work in is only two and a half by two meters.
Thanks for this video, Dennis - it's important information you're providing.
Unfortunately for me, I made my acoustic panels years ago before I heard about these dangers.
But, I did wrap all those panels with heavy curtain material called "Blackout" which isn't what I would call a "breathable" fabric: I actually put the fabric over my face and tried to breathe through it, and found it quite difficult to breath thru.
So, Dennis - I'm wondering if - since the wrap material is quite thick, and the fact that the panels are in place and undisturbed (and no hammers are falling on them - hopefully) - hopefully they are safe to leave in place?
You are putting sound energy into the material, this will help degrade it ever so slightly over time. Your sound creates pressure highs and lows that push and pull on the material - look at your woofer moving air, you get the idea. Mineral wool is not a discrete solid material, it's clusters of fibres, fluff basically that can come apart even wihout effort. Over time it degrades even witout being touched or moved. On occasion I've had to pull decades old rockwool, and it invariable had lost a lot of its integrity, it had fallen apart to some extent, actually much more than i expected. Since the fibres can be very small, they can potentially penetrate the fabric. Only airtight material would gurantee that you block the fibres. Not to scare you, you're probably fine, but since you asked I figured i'd put in my 2Âą.
If you canât breathe through it is also poor for sound absorption: it doesnât let air through
I'm gonna wrap mine in plastic tightly and then add some breathable cover on the front. Shouldn't affect the absorption too much and will give me a peace of mind.
@Memer Dreamer Soundwaves go through plastic foil.
What about blown insulation in roofs , eventually some does come down as dust particles we inhale , itâs a concern !
Stay away from technologies that are used for BTU retention. These technologies over absorb mid range frequencies. Music and voice demand certain rates and levels of absorption.
Thank you for your informative videos! i like them all! :)
What about rockwall coated with nylon?
And after touched or breath it, how many years it takes to the body to clean it?
D, I have no idea. Why take the chance.
@@AcousticFields Exactly, you have no idea, that's why you're not qualified to give out this information.
Man made vitrous fibers could last an average of 100 days, depending of the material used (Except refractory ceramic fibre, that one IS very bad and cancerogenous). Not enough to cause any damage or illnesses. The only thing they could do is cause irritation if you touch it or inhale it, but if you build something and leave it unbothered you don't have to worry.
The difference between asbestos and rock wool is 80 years and 100 days in the lungs.
@@jrealm5464 Cool, let's suffer for 100 days for cheap sound absorption. What a ridiculous argument.
As long as it is not being agitated by touch or strong air currents, the fibers will not come off of the mineral wool batts. The faced side of the batt is already coated to prevent fibers from falling off. You can spray a mixture of water and PVA glue as a sealant on the sides and backs (non-faced) sides of the batt to prevent fibers from dropping. Wrap the whole batt (or any exposed surfaces) in two layers of fabric and you're good. There's no reason to be afraid of a product that is literally harmless if used correctly.
Spraying glue and a double wrap of fabric should be an indicator of the toxicity of the material. Remember how "harmless" tobacco was portrayed.
Acoustic Fields it's the same concept as wearing a seatbelt in a car. It's a useful contraption and certain measures can make it safer
Why wrap with two layers?
@@laidbackmedia so you donât get a VD.
+1. .. Many, many thank you's.
is Quiet Battâą 30 Soundproofing Insulation Good For Acoustic Panels Im trying to build Acoustic Panels for my studio.I dont want to use Mineral woold for my studio
Soundproofing panels do not exist. "Soundproofing" is a term used for reducing noise transmission. Stopping noise is a permanent construction build process. There are no panels you can hang on the walls to stop noise. Wall hanging panels are used to absorb energy within the room, not stop noise transmission.
@@AcousticFields I mean to stop the reflections from the wall that's what I'm trying to do for my studio not soundproof I'm sorry about that
Interesting and good to know , I always thought that was the case. One speaker designer I know said that raw cotton fiber was good for absorbing sound , Im curious as to how that would perform overall and because it's a natural fiber if it would have fewer issues ?
The issue with those material types is no published rates and levels of absorption. Without rates and levels, you are guessing with your music and voice. I do not know about you, but music and voice are too large of a part of my life to guess. Music and voice are different. Music and voice are special.
@@AcousticFields Yes me to as well , as I am a musician and speaker designer with and Electronics Eng background. It would be an interesting study to determine exactly what damping rates are seen in various natural fibers !!! And voice in particular is the hardest to recreate totally convincingly !! Which is why I always found a lot of design's to be highly unsuccessful in the area. One of the best I know of in speaker design for voice was always Harbeth , they seemed to have figured out the issue.
@@ARGBlackCloud Harbeth figured voice out as they made it their primary design goal and worked on it for years. And they know what they are doing and donât compromise.
Rock wool is classified as IARC group 3, Not classifiable as to its carcinogenicity to humans. That's the same category as coffee.
Bside solutions well, I still would rather not breathe both substances đ
Yeah this appears to be some fear mongering... thereâs also a myth about naturally occurring vs man made products... naturally occurring can be just as dangerous as man made... just because something is natural doesnât mean itâs safe and just because itâs man made it doesnât mean itâs dangerous... these products have to meet government regulations the minimum thresholds are usually well below the point of danger.
I can remember the same claims made with tobacco.
Acoustic Fields lmao! People arenât smoking their insulationđ€Ł
It goes in the wall and never seen again, maybe thereâs a extremely slight risk to installers... but after asbestos they donât mess around with airborne pollutants these days... this stuff has been tested, and comparing it to the tobacco industry claims of the 40s and 50s really makes you guys lose credibility with me.
@@Paranimal86 Just read the handling and installation requirements to protect your health. That will tell you everything you need to know. You are "smoking" the fibers. If they get into your lungs its the same health risk.
Roxul (rockwoll) (mineral woll) also has the advantage of being a better sound dampener, more water resistant (as you mentioned), holds itself in place better (without staples in most cases), and is a slightly better insulator. When you say it costs more, it does; however, when the labor cost does not go up, it is a better investment. All of these products are bad if you inhale them. If you are not protecting yourself they you are at risk. Thanks for sharing.
You are inhaling them when you use boxes filled with building insulation as an acoustical tool.
@@AcousticFields Yes, they are both equally bad for that. The value is in time. In 30 years one will be clearly better than the other. Thank you for your insights.
@@AcousticFieldsYou know you can cover rockwool in materials that wont let fibers get through. For example firstly, wrap it up in foil, then wrap it in acousticly transparent material. Its literarly solution to everything you talk about in this video. I recommend searching for splutions instead of talking about anegdotical experiences casued by lack of proper preparation and safety.
Isnât the point of covering rockwool that it needs to be work breathable materials so the sound goes into it , otherwise you are making it reflect sound by covering it with something non breathable
@@heythere6983 In the example provided, they are both covered and breathable; I believe the sound you are referring to is coming from the room you are in. I am referring to the sound coming from the other side.
So do the Acoustic panels from Sweetwater have this stuff??
We will be doing a series of videos showing what is in all of these units.
I appreciate the video but what is the safest insulation to use?
If you are referring to r value, you will have to consult sources in your region. There is no "safe" building insulation considering the health hazards along with poor acoustical performance.
How can it be lighter than air? Does it fall upwaerds to the ceiling like helium balloon? If not then it IS NOT lighter than air.
The particles that get emitted from the product is what he's talking about. Look at Corning's 703 panels, the panels are thick and highly compressed, but If you look at it in proper light and you bang on the panel, tiny little particles become airborne. Those are what he's talking about.
I've had Corning 703 in my last room, but I don't use it anymore. I saw how much was becoming airborne and it's disgusting.
@@Oneness100 They are not lighter than air. Basic physics and knoledge.
L, They are light enough to be transmitted through air movement. Anything air born can be inhaled.
@@lauril1377 tiny particles that become airborne and float around in the air are lighter than air. The material itself isn't lighter than air, and Dennis isn't talking about that, he's talking about the little fibers that become airborne. Maybe you are using selective hearing and not really listening to what he said. He said the small, HENCE the operative word, SMALL fiber particles. He's not talking about the large panels themselves.
@Stimpy&Ren Well, they stay in the air an awfully long time, especially since people have air conditioning constantly stirring up the air particles to continuously floating much longer than I can follow how long it takes for them to reach the ground..
What you are talking about is some excuses for using building insulation as acoustic treatment and you've mentioned nothing about their performance.
If you want to use building insulation for room treatment knowing the potential harmful effects and their absorption coefficients as not that great for music and speech, that's your decision. I've used some of this stuff and have been in many rooms that also use it and none of those rooms sounded very good and many of them were professionally built under the direction of an acoustic engineer.
I've heard AF's foam and LF products in a room they had me visit. Best experience I've had to date. PERIOD. Maybe you should visit one of their rooms and listen for yourself. THEN make the decision.
well obviously you ban it in your projects, when mineral wool is the number 1 in the acoustic market - i get it, but i really dont believe that theres millions of people using it, even acoustic engineers and yet it is so obviously toxic? i'd like some research on that part, because it sounds very unlikely...
C, A 100 million people smoke cigarettes in the USA. That does not make it right. Building insulation is designed to keep your room warm and cold. It was never designed for music and voice. It lacks the proper rates and levels of absorption and it is also toxic.
Unlikely? why do you think people that deal with fiberglass wear respirators? So their lungs don't get filled with fiberglass particles. Putting panels in your room of compressed fiberglass and covering it with an acoustic fabric (guilford is the most popular) is STILL going to allow fiberglass particles to become airborne. if you use it, then you are using it. if you don't, then you aren't.
He's not talking about necessarily in one's home listening room or a production studio. Corning 703 is used in lots of places that are open to the public like offices, hotels, etc. and they wrap it in a Guilford fabric (quite common) and it allows tiny particles of fiberglass to become airborne.
@@Oneness100 Quick question on this. Im certainly no expert...but Ive noticed that these different insulating materials come in different densities, The rockwool Im using to make DIY panels is very dense. Unlike that cotton wool type insulation which IS to be fair very fibrous. Personally I wouldn't touch that stuff for sure. But wouldn't a denser material be safer?
Yes, I have been in professional recording studios that were plastered with Corning 703 wrapped in Guilford fabric or some used some other type of mineral wool wrapped in Guilford fabric.
In my own home I had a few large Corning 703 panels with guilford fabric and a friend of mine told me not to use it for this very reason almost 20 years ago. I lightly banged on one of the panels and a lot of particles were becoming airborne, I then vacuumed the panel just to see if the particles were dust or not. even after vacuuming the panels I repeated the test and still a ton of tiny particles became airborne.
Just because something is the most popular doesn't automatically mean it's the best. Typically the most common isn't the most expensive and that's why it's popular. Everyone's trying to save a buck, even if it means using something that's not very good to begin with compared to something else.
The reason why acoustic engineers typically use these materials is because they haven't developed anything better or because they don't know about AF's products and they just use what was commonly touted, but sometimes a new material comes around that is in fact better, but it takes a while for the word to get out because companies like Acoustic Fields doesn't spend a kajillion dollars in advertising which is what it takes for their products to become well known.
Personally, if you talk to any acoustic engineer, ask them if they have experience with AF's products, if they don't, then find someone that does. Most don't because they are either stuck in their own brainwashed mentality or they simply haven't done any investigation of their own.
I know AF has tested pretty much every material commonly used in the acoustic treatment industry as that's what their initial research was based on, before they developed their own materials and designs. Something that is VERY rare in today's world of room treatment.
@@Oneness100 Im not familiar with that fabric but I would have imagined that a fabric covering would hold in any fibers? Again, considering the rockwool is quite dense I would have though an old sheet even would do the job. I only recently bought a whole pack of rockwool and am currently making DIY bass traps. The thought of just dumping it and buying panels are not really my first thoughts to be honest. Im not trying to play devils advocate...but aren't these acoustic treatment companies just trying to get us to buy their product instead of making our own? Personally I think I'll stick with what I have. Anyway, on a brighter note..its Friday so have a great weekend my friend. Enjoy the music wherever you are.
Dennis have you looked into sheep wool and hemp as alternatives to this at all? There are some wood derived high density panels also. All seem to be a good direct replacement for mineral wools and fibreglass
We have examined many material types for absorption. However, we have found none that exhibits the proper rates and levels of absorption for music and voice. Most materials that we have examined have too many spatial irregularities in their coefficients.
What about owens corning 703 is it good?
W, Absolutely not.
Why are you talking about asbestos? And no, mineral wool is no longer classified as carsinogenic. From IARC: In contrast, the more commonly used vitreous fibre wools produced since 2000, including insulation glass wool, stone wool, and slag wool, are considered "not classifiable as to carcinogenicity in humans".
Sources:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mineral_wool
publications.iarc.fr/99
Also, remember that normal people do not work with mineral wool - neither do they burn it, they keep it in the wall. For acoustics itÂŽs put inside fabric. One could for sure speculate about this, but not conclude. The science does just not support it, and itÂŽs since 2002 no longer classified as a casinogenic. Other than that, I like your videos and would like to see more comparisons (test data) of how your products compare to cheap mineral wool in real life scenarios.
Foam is commonly known for being very bad at bass absoption compared to other solutions, and also creating bass ringing (because of unchanged reverbation time).
And one last thing. Several types of foam emit very toxic fumes during a fire, and is very flammable (mineral wool is not). Read all the classifications carefully. If you cant find classifications, stay away.
H, These material types replaced asbestos. Just because something is not classified as a toxic substance does not mean it is not. How about tobacco? These products are manufactured by large corporations that can buy a rating. I was in the building industry when asbestos was also not considered a carcinogen.
H, Fabric will not stop the fibers from getting through the fabric. Many people in the building industry work with this material type. Read the installation instructions on any of the insulation types. That should be enough to turn anyone with common sense away. from it.
The IARC removed it from the list of carcinogens in 2001 because of new science and understanding according to this video: czcams.com/video/MSJjipaPxUE/video.html It would seem it is totally fine to use inside your wall as insulation like the intended purpose but it does make sense to avoid it inside vents and such like you say because of constant exposure.
J, Remember tobacco? The government did the same thing. The government is highly influenced by special interest. Do your own thinking and testing.
@@AcousticFields is this an acoustics channel or a political motivation channel?
The linked video above is VERY informative. Highly recommend.
I had a neighbor who used Hay Bales for wall insulation, would this be a Alternative?..Can you offer any alternatives?
For sound absorption, we stay with open celled foam.
@@AcousticFields Thank you
Sir, do you do consultations online I am looking to protect sound from neighbours
Yes, we have both noise and treatment design options.
www.acousticfields.com/sound-barrier-technology/
Who else is shocked a company that sells 1K panels don't want you to make your own for 30 bucks a piece. With the money I've saved I can afford treatment for the cancer they claim I'll inevitably get (without any properly controlled studies cited). Plus I can buy some nice speakers on top of that too.
T, Be careful what you wish for. I just got out of the hospital after battling cancer for 5 weeks. I would not wish that experience on anyone. Use common sense. Any material type that can enter your lungs and accumulate in your lung tissue can not be worth any type of cancer risk no matter what the economics are.
@@AcousticFieldsand that is why mineral wools are made so they are not breathable đ€·ââïž
Good video Dennis. Cheap is a keyword here! There are also health friendly organic substitutions. For the low frequencies I have found al least 3 such wool types and mixed it with your diafragmic absorbers. My clients saying that Drums are breathing in my room)
L, Walk us through what you did.
Yes, I'd like also know more :)
are felt panels safe as sound absorption materials in a room?
If the rate and level of absorption is predictable and consistent throughout the frequency ranges. Do you have the coefficients for said panels?
It is save to use this material to isolate exterior walls?
Building insulation is not a barrier technology. It is designed to keep your room warm and cool.
I saw a video a couple years ago where a guy tried and tested different materials to use as sound absorption on his studio walls. One of the best materials he found was a stack of old bath towels. He framed the stacks and covered them with some aesthetically pleasing material.
it was DIY Perks
Do you have a link to that video?
Careful with the word "tested" --he's a nice guy and all and extremely talented in electronics, but he was not treating a room for critical listening and definitely didn't do any acoustic measurements of the effect of the towels. Guaranteed they will not do what you want if you're talking studio acoustics. Kind of like how sticking carpet or moving blankets to the wall will "improve" a room--sure, some HF reflections will disappear but that's about it.
Iâm so glad you brought this to the attention of the public....thank you.....!
Thank you for your support.
This is a lie.
@@jrealm5464 what part?
hi i read a lot of bad things about rockwool but i need to make acoustic panels for the living room, where my kids go too. did i read that i am carcinogenic? that are bad for your health? Thanks for the reply
Fibers from the material can be transmitted through the air and into your lungs. To see how toxic this material is all you have to do is read the installation instructions. Most material types require full body suits and respirators.
@@AcousticFields thanks
@@KM-md7fu They are not toxic, they are considered Group 3 by the IARC, meaning they are not cancerogenous, other organizations like the CDC, OSHA, WHO, EPA & toxicologists like John Hadley have proven that there is no increased risk in using mineral wools. Do not believe this person, he's only trying to sell something and by doing so he is providing deceptive information with no documentation or reliable sources. There are several studies by these health organizations accesible to you if you are concerned about your safety, I already read these and I can tell you that they're are not dangerous and they're are very effective.
So I listened to the video, read through a dozen or so of the replies. What I am wondering is why an alternative was not suggested? If the Rockwool is "bad" then what should we be using instead?
There is no one size or material type that is used for all usages. What are you trying to accomplish? What is the size of your room? What is the usage of your room? What reverberation time in the room do you desire? What surface areas are you treating? What are your sonic goals for your room? You can not simplify this process.
@@AcousticFields All good questions. Primarily what I was asking is in the instances where people are using rock wool for absorption, first reflections, for example. What other material would be substituted. Thanks for responding.
@@markwood8212 This material type lacks the proper rates and levels of absorption for music and voice.
I have read many comments on here about your motivation of this video being possibly profit driven. I don't know whether you are or not, and will refrain from forming an opinion on this matter right now. However there is a way to perhaps put some peoples suspicions at rest.
Please advise of a product(s), that you can point people to (that you don't sell), or at the very least other companies sell as well, that are great products for sound absorption and safe. (To make absorption panels, etc.)
That would be a good way to confirm one way or the other whether your motivations are (or are not) profit driven and are purely for safety concerns. I am sure many people in the comments section would welcome a generic recommendation that are effective and safe. Thanks.
I am not in the business of putting peoples' suspicions at rest. People who use this toxic material type should have no rest. We are in the business of achieving sound quality in small rooms.
@@AcousticFields Yes, I hear your position. I just thought it might be a way to quell some of the suspicions of some of the people making comments in that regard about your motivations.
I honestly have read articles both supporting your position and also some taking the opposite stance. I am not going to take a chance on using the product because there are too many varied opinions on the subject in complete conflict with each other. I'd rather be safe then sorry so I am going to find an alternative for sound treatment.
@@uptownphotography Lets look at the cost/benefit ratio. It's toxic to handle, the rates and levels of absorption are not complimentary for music and voice, and you would need a box that is 36" deep to get any rate of absorption to speak of at 40 Hz. Forget about getting down to 30 Hz. What you are dealing with here is a belief system that is incorrectly founded from the beginning material type. Changing a belief system such as this one means starting with the truths and moving forward with the truth until the belief system dies on its own faulty volition.
@@AcousticFields What would you recommend as a material that would be effective for low frequency absorption? Thanks.
Phil...
This guy sells his own products made of foam and he wants you to buy his stuff instead of rockwool or 703. Typical conflict of interest. I don't trust him at all.
L, No need to trust me. Look at the performance data and make your own decision. Make sure you factor in the health risks.
@Acoustic Fields always says his product is the only one that works. He says any of his competitors stuff is worthless. I guess he thinks he is the only game in town. Then he will tell you over the phone that it would cost the same for him to sell you his product than you build it yourself, after you already bought his DIY kit.
For what itâs worth I appreciate the health consideration and him sharing the information. I hope he continues to do so. If you donât like his video or products you should move on and choose something else đ€·ââïž
What are some of the alternatives?
sell your kidney and buy active carbon or go fuck yourself
sheepwool
@@maggiewhiteside4463 OK, like this, I guess: klippanyllefabrik.com/product/plain-wool-fabric/
What is an acceptable alternative these days? I do know that if you go to supermarket insulation products do state "Safe friendly to skin, organic, . . . "
Stay with open celled foams. They are economical, lightweight with predicatble rates and levels of absorption
do not use rock wool. I've been having severe health issues from long term exposure and I would have never used it if I knew what was going to happen to me. stay away and be safe please.
G, I am so sorry to hear my friend. Thank you for sharing. Its through repetitive sharing of personal experience that finally changes long held belief systems.
don't forget to pick-up your sponsored check on the way out, you done good with that story ... lol
Great info.
What is the alternative please?
What is room size? What is your room usage? What are your reverberation goals? What is your peak SPL levels? There is no one size fits all usages. You must develop an acoustic stratedgy first and then apply tactics to treat the stratedgy objectives.
I did cover it with chunk of dacron over all sides. It work well in terms of that those fibers are not flying anywhere. Im sensitive for this type of material. It really work. Yes people dont use just fabric! But dacron do the work.
Anyway thank you for your shared knowledge.
Think about how the product works. It works by air flowing through the fabric. Do you think that if a fabric allows for air flow into the inside of the box that the same fabric will not allow the fibers to be expelled back out. It's not a one way valve it works both with air in and air out.
@@AcousticFields Well dacron is not fabric.It is 100% polyester in reel. There is no way to blow thru that material. It just eats everything and nothing get out. I sleep in that room..
If these types of materials are dangerous, would that make the typical theatre an unsafe place to be? Most of them use fiberglass panels right?
S, Theaters do not use building insulation. They use a technology called pressed board.
@@AcousticFields if by pressed board you are referring to particle board, why aren't they used in home theatre as well? they seem relatively cheap
so this is fun and all i might get rid of all my rockwool panels now you had a nice convincing story but what in the world do we diy builders replace it with i mean what kind of material would you consider save and works for a diy project and yeah i know there is no perfect material it depends on everything but we diy builders dont care that much we build our own so we can atleast afford any kind of treatment everything is better then hearing one snare drum hit a 100 times becouse of a very bad echo please give us some options
Your issue is not echo. Echo is a repeating signal. Your issue is reverberation. You must lower the reverb times in your room using the proper rate and level of absorption for music and voice. Building insulation lacks that important response curve. Use our proprieatry foam sheets and build yoirv own units that have the proper rtae and level of absorption for music and voice.
what do you think of sheeps wool as an alternative? I think more research needs to be done on the acoustic properties of it.
Its organic, so it is plagued with bugs and parasites.
@@AcousticFields so you shouldn't use inorganic materials cause "your body doesn't know what to do with it", but you shouldn't use organic material because it's "plagued with bugs and parasites"....WE'RE ALL DOOMED!!!
@@jonofham6658 đđœđđœđđœ
@@AcousticFields
Now youâve really lost me.
@@AcousticFields Okay, thats all I ever needed to hear. I can stop scrolling.
Thanks for this advise! I'll use only for insulation between wall. So which are the materials do you recommend for doing acoustic treatment in a home studio?
Absorption and diffusion are the the two types. You must manage low frequency absorption with a different technology than the middle and high frequencies.
@@AcousticFields I'm from Argentina, and here everywhere uses or rock wool and glass wool fir the panels. So I'm trying to find the "healthy" solution.
This is concerning due to just installing MW in my van for thermal and acoustics. Now figuring what to cover with. Considering lattice having gig holes them cover with fabric or carpet
Stay away from all of these limp mass material types for sound absorption processes.