Weird Sword POINT SHAPES: Prosser Quill Tip & Others
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- čas přidán 12. 05. 2024
- Sword makers struggled for centuries to design blade tips that worked well for cutting and thrusting. Some designers came up with really weird solutions.
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#swords #history #design
I'm just happy we have some bronze age content. Would love a primer on bronze age swords.
Definitely. There's that weird one without a real tip. There are the Dussack shaped ones. There are the long 'rapiere'. There are one's with forward swept quillions. It is wild.
Couldn't agree more. Bronze was topic d'jour on sword tube channels a few years back.
Look back over old videos of schola gladiatoria, skalligrim, lindybeige, Tod's Workshop, and Thegn Thrand(the usual suspects, lol). There is a lot of good bronze age content if you dig.
Sea people's entered the chat
The Bronze Age was like the 00's cellphone scene--there were just so many wacky and wild experimental forms never (or at least rarely) seen since.
Any chance of an interview with Neil Burridge? 👍🤔👍
"The quill is mightier than the sword!"
No, wait....
He's got some very good points here
Ha.
So "just the tip" has a long history.
*LONGER* than you think
Well, you only need the tip in to create lasting consequences.
Aah what's the point
I would like to see a discussion of the rapier and other blades found with the 400-year old remains of the Theodul Glacier Man, a find starting in 1984 and recently finally presented as a complete set on display. They look to be things Matt would know about and be interested in.
Hmm...a rapier, fencing dagger, flintlock (or wheel lock or doglock) pistol and silver coins? Was this a highwayman? A fiendish rapscallion? A nefarious rogue? XD
@@hraefn1821 All of those were suggested, but the polite consensus has become a well-to-do merchant on an interesting trade route that in part went over the glacier as it was then. They think they found remains of his three donkeys he used to carry that trade (but not trade goods). However, this could very well be overly polite. However it may be, I think the overall collection of blades is fascinating, and I'd love to hear Matt's thoughts.
@@markthomason9723 Sounds very "highwayman-y" to me. XD
The assortment of weapons is...interesting. That is to say, homie was armed to the teeth. XD
YES!!! A CARPS TOUNGE!!! *the crowd goes wild* sorry its just i never see anyone talking about these and its really really hard to find info on em online. Bronze swords are something im really interested in.
Definitely need some more love for the Bronze Age, that’s pretty much where it all started for swords as we know them today.
@@Oldtanktapper I wanted to make him a carps tongue but he already has one
Ah I was hoping the Katzbalger gets a mention with its wierd rounded tip.
Chinese Warring States period swords had some pretty interesting shapes.
A thinner blade might penetrate deeper but it makes a smaller wound and therefore has less impact on the targeted body.
This technology reminds me of 3rd century ad celtic swords and spears: a diamond ridge all to the tip of the blade, and flat wide edges on each side. Great videos thanks!
The Pattern 1796 is an absolutely fantastic zombie weapon!
"Would you like a cutting sword? Or a thrusting sword?"
Yes please
Saying "yes" there doesn't mean "both". It means "either". Weird epidemic of people not understanding how inclusive "or" works.
Tis a joke mylord @DevinDTV
@@DevinDTV almost as bad as goofs not knowing what memes are. also, AvB is true whether A or B is true, so trivially A v C is true if A is true, and B v C is true if B is true. so, Yes, in conclusion.
@@unitIthatmoron Yes
Clever, but the problem is that the thicker part of the metal is close to the edge at the front. This means it will act as a "stopper" that will make it difficult to cut deep into the target.
I'm guessing that ideally you would be aiming your cuts a little further down the blade. Between 1/2 - 3/4?
The extra weight at the tip would seem to give it some extra chopping power it wouldn't have otherwise, but ideally cuts would still be made further back on the blade.
True, but you can't have it all. Personally, it's a good compromise for a dual purpose blade
Cuts aren't made at the tip, they are ideally made at the point of resonance. Easy to find on a flexible blade. It's usually ~1/3 down from the tip. Top heavy swords I assume would be closer to the tip.
Yet another excellent discussion. Thank you.
The model 1898 Argentinian cavalry sword also has a Prosser quill tip although the blade, of german manufacture, is thinner than that in the video. Seems that such blade type remainded in use in the continent long after it dissapeared in Brittain.
The Prosser tip reminds me of the Korfu kopis.
A replica of the clip-point 1796 would be amazing
I have a custom sabre where I had it made with clipped the tip so it is still online for the thrust. The false edge near the tip is also sharp. It has a amazing thrust for curved sword.
experimental 19th century french carps tongue swords is a really interesting tidbit, would love hear more about that and maybe other weird obscure 19th century experiments too
I really like this sword. Very cool.
This channel is one of my favorites. It reminds me of the History Channel of yore, only over topics that I am already very interested in! Keep up the great work!
somewhat related, but I think the langseax has a really interesting blade shape
One of my favorite bladeshapes
How were the pipe back/quill tip blades made? Is the "pipe" forged from the blade or a separate piece forge welded on? I would guess it was forged in place, in particular for the quill tip.
Celtic leaf-shaped blade. Best of both worlds.
Finally Mr. Easton addresses the age old penetration problem!
There's also the type 2 falchion, which were mentioned on previous videos
The Wilkinson 1845 light cavalry saber has a similar design philosophy. It’s a subtly curved sword that straightens out in the final 6ish inches for better thrusting.
In my opinion, it’s the ultimate cut and thrust one handed weapon, particularly so when on horseback.
Thanks for the video ⚔️
A sword that is the perfect cutter and stabber? A lightsaber is what you want. An elegant weapon for a more civilized age.
Wooo! The Osborn Gunby! Yay!
Great video Matt. I would love your opinion about the yatagan style blades in relation to this cut/thrust question. To my untrained eye they seem to be a clever compromise and might perform acceptably at both. Thoughts?
I think he covered that in an older video, and that was the conclusion, you get the chopping power of a forward curved sword but you can also thrust well. I heard Yatagan blades were pretty fashionable in the west for a time, mostly as a trophy but some were pretty enthusiastic about the blade shape even though it came a bit late to make a big impact in the military.
You see the Quill Back as late as WWI with the German M1898 Quill Back Bayonet.
The biggest problem I see is one of balance. For a thruster, you generally want a nimble tip with the weight toward the hand. For a cutter, you generally want the weight toward the tip. The rapier and saber are both optimized weapons for their respective ends of the spectrum, and I honestly don't see how you can square the two without losing what makes each good.
Very bizarre subject matter, this time. Thanks!
I love that wonderful, the 19th century was the best time for blade shapes.
That Prosser Quill Tip is *_UGLY._*
And I *_LOVE_* it. 🥰🥰🥰
Didn't he have a penchant for furry hats and axes above his front door?
Love my 1827 Royal Navy sabers. I am curious why the naval pipebacks retained the yelman when the regulation models came along, while the infantry and cavalry didn't.
Yup, clothing makes the *biggest* difference. But of course--just like a broadhead arrow blade used for hunting--a wide sharp blade can still actually be better for thrusting attacks too. Against flesh and bone, IF sufficient for penetration, it will nevertheless cause much, much more hemorrhage and related damage.
It still comes down to not just context, but the best *guess* as to the context one will most *likely* face. Do people where you're at wear heavy clothing and/or are capable, before battle is joined, to throw on heavy clothing/armor... or not? (And, despite any best/reasonable guess about what you'll face... given enough fights in history, one can always get unlucky enough to have guessed wrong. ;) )
Hmm why not go with leaf shape?
Good mass + slight recurve should aid in the cut
Tapered spear point should aid in the thrust
probably won't be as nimble as a dedicated thruster, a pain in the ass to make a sheath for, and hard to sharpen the edges but...
When I hear Prosser, I think immediately of Mr. L. Prosser the direct male descendant of Temujin. Sadly the only evidence of his noble forebear was a fondness for woolly hats and occasional hallucinations of hairy men on horses laughing at him.
Hi Matt, will you be doing test cuts with a Prosser-quill tip sword?
Was it a good cutter? I imagine anything with a pronounced spine is going to create drag when cutting through a target
Was the yataghan not just such a compromise ? Mainly asking because of the widespread sword bayonet applications.
Interestingly enough, the german M1889 cavalry saber seams to have the "Prosser quill tip" as well. Which is way later than the british examples mentioned. Poor old germans always getting overlooked. :-D I was just looking at the LKChen chinese Beiyang sabers, which are modeled after the german M1889, and I was really irritated seeing that same tip I just saw in your video. Thank you very much for all the good content you provide.
Wow! Thank you for showing us! I'm for sure gonna use quill-tipped weapons in my DnD campaign!
Just discovered you recently while looking for sword reviews. Just subscribed. Cayyou recommend which Side Sword you’d recommend to purchase. I had the Kingston side sword on hold but was very unhappy with how loose it got after you cut just a little with it. Thanks!!
Speaking of Bronze swords, which most of the comments see to be doing for some reason, Do you know much about the swords of Luristan? They really capture my imagination, and i imagine they were as desired and luxurious as Uhlfbert swords, centuries later.
And that bronze fo yours seems like the worlds first colichmarde!
Does the clipped point 1796 have the same blade thickness near the point as the standard hatchet point, or did they leave any extra meat for stiffness?
Maxor made a two-part incorrect summary of ULTRAKILL.
Matt Easton makes summaries of swords.
They are not the same but I enjoy them both.
7:12 said every man ever
African swords innovate this very well. The Tebu, Mbuun, and Ida blades especially
@Matt: Could you cover "legendary / historical" swords - more specifically the chinese 'Sword of Goujian'.
Not sure if this was ever brought up.
Osborn & Gunby saber replica when?
Is the Prosser quill tip blade the inspiration for the famous but very short lived Elcho bayonet?
Matt
I’ll ask the question on lots of folks minds
Is there a possibility of the OG geometry or a Prosser geometry in the works where your endorsed windless line is concerned?
The strangest sword tip I've ever seen was at a local museum that displayed an early 19th century saber that had a scalloped edge at the very end. Definitely not any good for thrusting. Unfortunately, it has long since been taken off display and I don't recall any specific details other than it related to the state of Ohio.
How well dpes it cut ? I imagine the pipe back spine 1 cm behind the edge stops the sword from cutting very well. Does it ?
How well do pipe backed blades cut? Seems like the pipe would get stuck in bone.
That is a cute point.
Interestingly enough, I've got an Osbern 1796, with a fairly pointy end. As Osbern split with Gumby in about 1808, it's " possible" that mine was used in the peninsular or india. (Equally likely it could have been used by a yeomanry or militia junior officer stuck in the uk). That said, it's a very nice sword and as soon as I finish cleaning all the crud,- including hammerite on the grip!-off it, I'd like to try some tameshigiri with it.
Osborn & Gunby.
@@bobrobinson1576 typo!
The Quill-Tip looks like a backwards yataghan
how well does the quilltip pass through targets with that crosssection?
It wouldn't have been as effective at piercing through chain mail but against unarmored targets? It doesn't look any wider than the head of a boar spear.
Probably wouldn’t flex much as all through thick clothing or padded and that was essentially the best people were wearing.
This is 1800s, if was extremely for people to wear something as minimal as metallic helmet and chest protection
Reinforced O-kisaki has entered the chat.
The 1860 Prussian Fusiliers bayonets had quill tips
You can always forge weld a spike on the end of the blade.
Crude & simple but was done more often then people think.
The orc battle falchion is esssentially this. Bjorn did a video on it, scary efficient , scary brutal. Kinda sluggish for its size but if you have a large shield , that doesn’t matter as much . The only thing I think would is if the front quill on was down swept for potentially punching and blind edge grabbing but that could infer with using the back edge for thinks
@@PJDAltamirus0425 I was referring more to the 1d type from the Elmslie typology or similar.
Spike on a falchion were not as common as on two handed swords like grand falchions.
Faussart's being technically a short pole arm though most mistake for a sword often had a reinforced spike on the end.
Imagine visually a mixture of a elongated butchers knife & Falchion scaled up with a 2 to 3 foot handle on a 3 to 4 foot blade.
Effectively a Fauchard & falchion amalgamation as Faussart works as a short lance or large sword.
Faussart is a rather practical weapon most forget even existed.
I'd pick it any day over a long sword or most any other 2 handed sword.
@@PJDAltamirus0425Mind of all the blades I own I'd pick my 13Ib hog/carcase splitter if I had no idea what I was facing.
I like a big hacking chopper over thrust or slashing blades personally as lopping bits of the opponent should never be understated.
a man will fight back with cuts or a something stuck in them but they can't fight back if no limbs to offend with.
Much prefer a Kopis/falcata or Kukri to all the more popular blades.
I do like my kukri i forged as nipper with uncle Goopta, no relations but it is more tool though a perfectly useable weapon.
Put a war pick on the back of hog splitter & I doubt much could sustain against it.
I'd be shocked if no one in the middle ages did it as combining the 2 would not be difficult.
@@arnijulian6241 Has someone found an example of a two handed falchion? I thought it is only speculated based on period artwork.
@@PJDAltamirus0425Go to France or Germanies museums as 2 handed falchions & seperate but similar faussart are not a southern European or British thing.
Most arms & armour people are familiar with is from the royally armouries as the photography is much better organised & categorised.
Italians are sort of a mix bag when it coms to documenting museum inventory but I suspect that is mainly due to limited funding.
The Venice arsenal had 2 handed falchion dated to 1490 last my mother went.
My failed health has not permitted me long travel in the last 4-5 years.
2 handed falchions exist but are much rather then 2 handed double edged swords like long swords etcetera but I suspect this is because museum keep the best high status pieces while most falchion if not decorated in cold or something fancy likely got smelted down in history before in the hand of private collectors much less museums that pester private collectors who curate objects better then most museums ironically.
My father gets pestered for all our family arms to before the Spanish armada were my lot in part saw of the Spaniards in part as privateers given pardon for their service.
You give them these old pieces & they would want to stamp it, polish it to make it look nice & presentable rather then leaving the pieces well enough alone.
You can't expect a 1/2 millennia old piece of iron to look aesthetic.
My fathers house is like walking back centuries into the British empire!
Many complain about his manner, but frankly fvck em!
I don't understand why people are so keen on arguing with a ex sergeant & mercenary like my father.
Why would you argue with a man & an entire lineage that ended life for the crowns payment.
Most of the armaments my father has is very much naval based as our ancestry is basically pirates, clansmen & sailors in general.
The Neighbours never liked that I wore a dirk being of partially Scottish descent when in my Cornish or Scottish kilt as a nipper.
No wonder we have a generation of truly feckless people that can't get anything done as they can't be trusted with a knife much less anything else.
I had my 1st blade from 4 & my 1st air rifle from 7.
I hunted since 5 & was instructed in matters of polemology=warfare studies by my grand elders to my father.
A butchers apprentice at 10.
3 generations of soldiers instructed me on both my fathers & mothers side.
I had a rather unusual youth to most in todays world but I would have had it no other way!
You told me about a guy who practiced full harness fencing, but I cannot remember who that was. Can you please provide me with the channel name again?
First impression from the thumbnail: "Someone reinvented the yataghan."
How do those 1796 from windlass with your input compare to the original antique ones? I know that my cold steel one is way off compared to originals.
"I want a sword, Mr. Gumby." "Owe, I hit my head on the pommel!"
"My brain hurts! My Brain hurts!"...
Is that bronze sword fullered, or cruciform? I cant tell from the video. thanks!
I don't see what competition cutting knives you're referring to. All the ones I know are freaking beastly cleavers ground to a razor thin edge made from crazy space age steels, see what Dan Keffeler do. Anything that significantly deviate from that is suboptimal in performance.
I still dont know why early g98 bayonet have that quill tip though
I think i would make a bulge or a more thick area not a spine and more on the backside the blade not in the midle, because make choping harder. To empower trust the last 5 cm would look like the tip by 4 min. I have no idee how nimble would, probably ther tryed it out to. I am only some chair thinkeing "warrior". I have not tried out the bonus/malus, even a real fancing, only childhhod duels.
Interesting that the bronze sword has a narrower section near the grip, thought that was just a modern trope.
Watch out for the mushroom tip. Billions on men have been made and unmade due to it.
it's all about context :)
I've seen a few of those around. Never really appealed to me 😅
Take a shot every time Matt says "penetration" and you will die.
Nah fam, I'm out here getting penetrated every time Matt says "penetration" 😩😩😩
You'll get penetrated.
I haven’t got the time to count them all, but I think you might die sooner having a drink every time he says ‘thrusting’.
I remember Skallagrim doing a video on thrusting testing (hehehe). He found that even Katana thrusted pretty well.
Yeah it depends on the target. They do great against soft targets, but really not well at all against most armour.
@@scholagladiatoria but I think that would hold true with most swords that aren't specifically designed to thrust. Wouldn't I want a design that might prevent overpenetration? If my katana goes 15-27 cm into the target do I consider it bad at thrusting? I might restrict that to something that really is quite bad. Love my kukri but a thruster she is not.
What is the difference between the Indian sword and Arabian sword ?
Might have solutioned the problem, but they look funny
Like most things in life, if it looks good, it will be good. And the oposite it true too... sorry. But, hey, you got out another video!
Where's the GLADIUS? Cut...Thrust...yes both.
You say give your Facebook a like ??
Hows that when you only want students of Hema there_
The best compromise cut and thrust sword is the straight military saber with full flat grind that comes to a fine tip.
This makes more sense for a theoretical drag race than it does Mario Kart.
A) We're all but ignoring the actual gameplay of Mario Kart. (The assumption that you spend most of the game at top speed is hilarious.)
B) Boost is objectively more important than either max speed or acceleration.
So why even mention MK?
You have been Matt Easton, but will you continue to be???
I wonder if the shape of that bronze one, at least at first, could have been the result of repeated resharpening after edge damage from use.
Why so much resistance over saying something is better that other? 😅
Perhaps the pipe back design didn’t remain for long because it is a bit ugly… in my opinion at least.
Are there any examples of swords that uses materials of different weights, in the construction of the blade, in order to change the balance and optimal cutting point?
I would think that you could get a powerful cut and good thrust, if the end of the blade was made from heavier but still strong material, so you could make a heavy tip on a lighter blade, without sacrificing a pointy tip.
You didn't mention the WW1 Imperial German Model 1898 Pipe Back Sword Bayonet !
G'day,
Oz squeakin' up, here...
I seem to recall that a year or so ago you were kinda lathered-up about possible Parliamentary activism to outlaw owning, & selling, & training with Swords & "Historical Weapons" - in response to the odd angry Nutter going all
"Zorro/Shin-Taro...!"
in the Suburban Streets, Malls, or Stupormarkeds..., with a certain degree of worry being expressed concerning threatened loss of livelihood and
Stranded Assets...
This past month there've been a Rash of Dingbats either going-off (their heads...) and either chopping up Strangers, skewering Bishops in Church on Livestream or ringing the Cops on themselves before getting shot down on the streets.
About a week ago I saw an item regarding some Fool waving his Katana through some people in a Suburb of London - killing one before getting themself
Terminated.
Then there were Politicians bleating about
Once again
Outlawing
Sharp Objects...
Because the
CitiZenry are now apparently
Too
Angry,
Undisciplined,
Immature and
Unwise..., to be trusted with a
Sharp Stick or a hefty
Rock...
Least they hurt themself -
While attempting to
Hurt somebody else who has
Perhaps
Annoyed them...;
But, maybe,
Merely
To ventilate their
Angst..., in the hopes of
Feeling better
About their own perception of
Their situation.
Maybe you could do a Video on the
State of the
Debate...?
Such is life,
Have a good one...
Stay safe.
;-p
Ciao !
I find pipe back blades really ugly tbh.
it looks like copy of turkish sword point, only difference is pipe