I Hate When Writers Make These 3 Mistakes - John Vorhaus
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- čas přidán 31. 07. 2023
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In this Film Courage video interview, Author/Speaker/Artist/Screenwriter John Vorhaus explains the plot structure of comedy and drama in an interview. In comedy, the hero undergoes a change from denial to acceptance of a theme, rewarded with community, whereas tragedy leads to the hero's failure to learn the lesson, resulting in punishment or exile. He mentions examples like "Liar Liar" and "The Great Gatsby" to illustrate the difference.
John Vorhaus is best known for his comedy-writing classic, The Comic Toolbox: How to be Funny Even if You’re Not. He has taught and trained writers in 37 countries on five continents at last count, and created TV shows of his own in Nicaragua, Romania and elsewhere. His writing credits include dozens of teleplays and screenplays, plus seven novels and some two dozen works of non-fiction. His latest book is the little book of STANDUP. Vorhaus is a graduate of Carnegie Mellon University and a member of the Writers Guild of America. He lives in Southern California and secretly controls the world from www.johnvorhaus.com.
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#artist #movies #entertainment
Do you agree with John about the mistake that Avatar 2 made?
He says the writer is being lazy, or the character is being stupid. Maybe it is the writer being stupid?
A2 is an awful movie all around.
No. There’s nothing wrong with characters making mistakes. A key theme of Avatar 2 is trying to do your best for your family. In that moment, Kiri’s health was Jakes priority.
I gotta admit I checked out of Avatard 1 the moment they said “unobtainium”. Just lols from then on.
Does Avatard 2 copy the plot of Pocahontas 2?
@@geoffhoutman1557 Lol.. ya, they were pushing it in the 1st movie.
John, you hit that nail on the head!! I was once reading a story where the protaganist and her boyfriend were running away from a group of bad guys- forgot why they wanted her. They run into a crowded outdoor mall and stop so she can buy a new outfit. I shit you not!! It wasn't about changing her appearance to fool those persuing her- she wanted a cute outfit. She didn't even change into it- the baddies found them as they left and she ran with her shopping bag. I was so pissed off!! Who thinks that's remotely a good thing for a character to do...other than that author? I stopped reading that book and never read any more of that author's work.
I hate when authors of long series get lazy and write their characters "out of character" and behaving in ways that make no sense, or do something ridiculously stupid to move the plot. It completely ruins the story and I don't understand how they cannot see that or don't care. They get to make up stories for a living, rather than working a mundane and hated job. Integrity in their work should be important.
Another thing I hate is when authors change characters and stories in a long series in unrealistic manners to reflect their own lives or choices- and then lash out at their readers for not liking those abrupt changes. Readers are not close friends or therapists; readers are fans and - most important - paying customers. Same with movies: viewers are fans and paying customers. Seems most movie and show makers and some authors and movie writers have forgotten that.
One of my peeves is inconsistency character behavior no matter if that a hero or villain. When you make a character to come off as believing something then going against it for the sake of a plot twist it feel artificial. We as the audience can know something the protagonist might not know and when you focus on an unlikeable antagonist getting redemption because of some in new piece of information then it come off as a major tone backlash since you lead us up to disliking the character with no hint at a turn around. Or when the antagonist acts as a duetagonist for part of the story and then turn on the main hero despite helping them toward their goal. Unless it to gain a treasure they both want for separate reason. It doesn’t make any sense to help the hero cause if it set the antagonist cause 3 steps back.
I have a ton of pet peeves that guide my writing. One of the major ones is I hate "perfect" main characters as well as "genius jerk" characters (Tony Stark is charming and self deprecating and a bundle of anxiety, which are the parts missing from most jerk characters). I also hate forced romances where they two people get together just because with no real chemistry or without their romance getting in the way of what they want. I also hate purely evil villains who are evil because they're evil without them justifying their evil in a way that allows them to see themselves has the hero in a believable way.
Filmcourage keep giving us these gems. I haven't seen Avatar 2, but the information he gave in the video is priceless.
Thanks Jacob! 💎💎💎💎💎 😉
Don't watch it. It's not worth your time. It's just cgi eye candy with propaganda (native indigenous tribes are always good and capitalists and humans and white people are always bad). The movie has no nuance, is slow as hell, there are only three semi three-dimensional characters and two two dimensional characters (out of like 12 I don't even remember). The character arcs are also bland and the world building is so big it doesn't even fit in the movies runtime making for an agonizing watching experience.
@@philswiftreligioussect9619 Thanks for the review.
@@filmcouragePlease tell me where to watch avtar 2 free i dont have money but i want to watch AVTAR 2 is there availbale free??😢😮😭😭😭
In my ignorant opinion...
A film contains a story, plot and spectacle. Some lean more heavily to one or the other. Some only embrace one aspect. While the best movies hold all three in balance.
Today, it seems like the only thing that counts is story and spectacle... plot be damned.
Ironically, I'm wearing a Great Gatsby shirt right now. I Agree with John here.
as John says, checking out of a movie "when a character does something stupid". Totally the way I felt when watching the visually striking yet frustratingly plotted Prometheus - earth's leading scientists decide to encounter a new alien life form after taking off their protective helmets?!? I don't think so!
The scene that got me was when that idiot scientist approached that menacing snake thing like it was a newborn kitten. Really??
I agree with a lot of this. Having said that I think most of the people that enjoy 'the room' don't enjoy it because it has innate value, they enjoy it ironically because it's terrible in a hilarious way.
Like an MST3K type thing. So horrendous, it's hilarious.
Love Daria btw. Sick Sad World!
@KathBorup Yup - surprising that JV misses the shot with The Room. Wiseau perhaps did not intend to make a RazzieBait Bad Movei. Yet the The Room is a magnificent flop - yes, bad in a [completely] hilarious way! Huge cult following needless to say, so there's that. Writer's Prayer: PLEASE Let Me Make A Transportingly Ironically BAD Cult Classic Movie.
Exactly
Lets see your films. All the comments on this are by Jokes. I havent seen the room but I respect a guy who shot on film and digtial side by side. Sorry, but thats genius. And again, lets see your piss poor "films"
Avatar 2: The Way of Water, his daughter has a seizure under water and is comatose.
What makes the scene bad is that the moment the doctors get there and start working on her, they're shooed away to allow the tribal woman to cure her, and she does. Meaning that the entire purpose of contacting them was for nothing. If they had successfully revived her, then this wouldn't be the case.
One of my pet peeves is the “perfect character” archetype. Now exceptions exist like Luke Skywalker but most heroes or villains IMO should be very flawed and learn from each other in some way.
Luke Skywalker is far from perfect
@@andrewgreeb916 thinking about it now I’m likely wrong (forgive me haven’t watched the movies in years).
Luke was flawed. He was naive and impatient.
There's also 12 Angry Old Men so it's not about not having a perfect charcter. It's mostly about having most of the characters 'not perfect' imo
It's a shame to go watch a movie and find that due to certain plot errors, one can no longer enjoy it in the same way. It's like some of the magic suddenly breaks. But that's what some of us experience. I wish all the movies I watched would seem fantastic, going in with low expectations to be pleasantly surprised, but it's not in my nature. Having standards can be frustrating sometimes.
Even worse, that movie was once a screenplay, and it had those flaws. And yet, it found a producer. So what about this "rule" : Quality finds a way. Problem is, not always. And also: Shit finds a way as well.
Author Daniel Keys wrote the novel, Flowers for Algernon. It has a dramatic character arc like the movie Liar Liar with Jim Carey. Keys said he based his novel on what Aristotle said in Poetics, that "A tragedy can only occur for the highborn, because one could only have a tragic fall from a great height." In Flowers for Algernon, the main character is healed from a low IQ to become brilliant. Then he falls from grace because he became evil with his new intellectual powers. The idea that a tragedy involves a hero falling from a great height to create tragedy is intriguing, and worth making note of.
Thank you, good stuff. I'm lucky I can usually suspend all disbelief and enjoy the CGI and music regardless. Even the worst Marvel movie. If I'm in a misery or analytical mood, I pick what I watch wisely. Mood always affects cognitive processes, especially imagination and tolerance.
I actually have a similar issue with Avatar 2 but just in a different context even though it ultimately leads to the same conclusion. The issue I had was the bad guys took ages to find to Sully and his family and it took them forever to be vaguely on their trail. And the dude is right in that the movie might as well just ended when they got to the water country considering the fact, the bad guys didn't even know where they were when they got there. There was no looming sense of doom for a good portion of the movie and it bored the shit out of me. The movie did not fucking deserve to be 3 hours long and end on a cliffhanger at that.
But you are right in the grand scheme of things, expectations is everything, have the wrong expectations for anything and you can end up loathing the media in question a lot. Some people are too stupid to see they have to have the same expectations for everything that is hyped.
Great discussion, really useful way to look at and compare these stories.
Great interview. Makes one think. Expectations can be a stumbling block for a movie-goer, but a script writer has to make a script that will satisfy viewers with high expectations.
So good to hear a smart and articulate individual speak with real passion about what constitutes value.
I don't like this idea that stories are supposed to be puzzles to be solved. Too many movie goers have become "detectives" trying to outsmart the movie and think ahead. If they get to the end and they've figured it out they feel either smart, or bored, cause they "beat the movie". Movies aren't supposed to be a challenge. There's supposed to be more like a roller coaster where you are enjoying the thrill of it. Imagine someone sitting on a roller coaster "I bet we're about to go through a tunnel" "Oh, look, we did...boring" "I figured it out". I also think you have a lot of people with an inferiority complex who don't like anything to be smarter than them. You saw this after the Sixth Sense where everyone had to watch Shyamalan's movies as detectives so they could feel superior. It's like they didn't want to be tricked again. As if the Sixth Sense was a scam that they fell for. It also doesn't help when you have people who are writers or who have watched a lot of movies saying that a story was predictable, and thus not enjoyable. It's interesting how many writers can't seem to sit and watch a movie like a kid would. The only movie critic I can think of who had a ton of experience with movies, but could still watch them like a kid, was Roger Ebert.
I wish I could like this comment more! I feel this way 10000000% I had a friend who hated the village because the ending he did not see coming and he tried to figure it out. I think so many people hated it for that same reason it out smarted them. The same can be said about Nolan’s movies. I read a comment on reddit where someone was annoyed with Oppenheimer because they expected some twist and there wasn’t one. These people have ruined the movie experience for themselves and are so arrogant they can’t see they did it to themselves. As a writer I think I watch movies in a childlike way always ready to be taken on the rollercoaster and experience each bump and loop along the way.
Depend on the genre. Not all movie need to be puzzle and not all movie need to be mind less action jsjt to entertained audiences.
For example topgun maverick works because it doing what its supposed to. To entertained audiences Who want action movie. But this is different with shutter island, if you go watching shutter island for action, you pick the wrong movie. Some people prefer shutter island and some people prefer topgun maverick. Don't lable everyone or every genre as same. Or we Will be siffered with mcu level where every character need to be craking jokes in entire phase 3 for cheap laugh
I wouldn’t want to watch a movie where I can guess exactly what would happen.
@@TheKubreckianPS Yeah, I've never understood why people have such an inherently adversarial relationship to movies. I watch movies because I want to like them. I'm starting to wonder if movies just aren't for some people, the same way not everyone watches sports, or goes camping. Maybe some people would be better off doing something else.
@@jaja5573 So you never watch a movie more than once?
"Treasure Island" was the first book I ever read. It changed my life.
It's stunning that the same guy who made Terminator & Aliens made Avatar.
He's not the same guy. The guy who made Avatar was years older, far more self-confident, and had access to far more sophisticated tools than did the guy who made Terminator and Aliens.
Why is it stunning? Avatar 2 is amazing. Better experience in the theather than Oppenheimer and Barbie combined. Simple story, simple characters, simple themes, with focus on the journey. There's nobody like James Cameron in hollywood today.
Honestly if Avatar 2 really is the best Hollywood can make nowadays, it is pretty sad. Appart from the obvious beautiful imagery, everything else is weak in this movie : story, characters, dialogues, jokes, duration, etc. Honestly I did not even have a GREAT time watching it. I kept telling myself : "wow, this is really a stereotypical movie formula" :/
@@maxschmidt2897 I want to know how pebbles & stones can fall off the floating mountains, but the mountains themselves don't fall 😐
They're magnetic kind of quantum-flux related centrifuges.@@proto-geek248
Great advice! Great examples! 👍👍👍
I'd REALLY like to know what John Vorhaus thought of The Cable Guy.
A ton of people hate it, but I found it very interesting and good because 9/10 people probably meet or have a couple these traits that Carey's character has. And because it hits home with a lot of people they no longer see The Cable Guy as a comedy but a drama in a way. Very interesting to find out from John his thoughts.
Finally… A guy who’s really got his shit together. This guy understands movies. He doesn’t like the stupid ones and neither do I… But he seems to have a real grasp on how things should work. Good for you John, good for you!
It sounds a bit like saying that if a filmmaker focuses enough on elements such as aesthetics or special effects, they can get away with weaknesses in plot or character, because the film is a visual experience, not a suspense, or action-driven story. Sounds a bit like a cheap excuse.
This is exactly the argument made in favor of Stanley Kubrick's 2001: A Space Odyssey.
1) Writer is lazy
2) Story is predictable
3) Character makes stupid choices
[9:00] Like for Spy, with Melissa McCarthy, as cited by Steve Kaplan as an example of contemporary comedy excellence: After less than 10-minutes, it was another DVD for the charity rack at the supermarket :-)
When John Vorhaus is talking about writers making their character do something stupid 5:59 I immediately thought of Dan Brown's DaVinci Code series of books. The main character, a professor, was frustratingly dumb at points. I believe Mr. Brown was trying to make a character that was academically smart but not street smart but as a reader it simply made it frustrating. That's one change I appreciated about the movies version of the lead character, he wasn't frustratingly dumb.
Agreed!
I agree with this guy. The worst thing a writer can do is have their characters make choices that no one in their position would ever realistically make.
Hi, just stumbled on this channel and think it’s such a great one with very clear and succinct insights on movies and storytelling.
Real reason that I’m writing is, there’s this movie I watched while on holiday but I didn’t catch the title - it’s about a man who hired a professional hitman to kill him on his birthday. Then the ending was he ended up at his bash and fell off a roof or something. I’ve been trying to find this movie to rewatch it again, but I have too little to go on and Google’s algo hasn’t been too strong these days.
If anyone knows of this movie, do let me know. I’d be most grateful. Thank you.
Ps: it has an 80s vibe to it. Thanks again.
Is it " The Suicide Theory " from 2015
Oh hi the disaster artist room, Tommy Wiseau! 😮
From the sounds of things, there's a LOT of "the big fat middle"... "Maybe I'm just not the target audience for this movie"...
I like eye-candy as much as the next sci-fi/fantasy nut... The reality is STILL that the plot matters, the characters BETTER matter, and I can't sit through every fiber in my BEING demanding that I reach through the g** d*** screen and smack the living F*** out of the "hero"(oes) for doing stupid sh*t when I KNOW they know better! I can't do it. Beautiful visuals and great special effects do NOT cover up "piss poor plotting" and "sad or cheap and LAZY writing"... If something's GOT to happen for the plot, at least don't insult MY intelligence with however the hell you get it to happen...
If you need a "mistake" to be made SO badly for the plot to carry on, find a way to stick a curious kid or rebellious teenager or even invent a moron for comic relief, "except that one time he got everybody killed"... If your hero is supposed to be smart, then he or she NEEDS to be smart.
AND that's what's wrong with SOOOOoooo much comedy today. It's TOO stupid to even be worthy of a laugh. Don't get me wrong, I also LIKE fail-army... BUT about 12 to 20 minutes of it is also about all I can stand. For all the great points SNL has had over its many years, there have been MOUNTAINS of cheesy, stupid, forgotten, short-lived, and utterly flat jokes, gags, and scenes that went nowhere... The only reason it's as famous for the lots of great comedy it's spawned out is 100% the shear amount of time (and number of people) involved!
It's okay to give certain older editions or attempts "a pass" on some points, but take that WITH the fact that it was already done. It was tried, and that was the result... For "Treasure Island", what may have started as a mid-teens' demographic just wouldn't cut it anymore... By now, we've been bombarded with pirates and pirate tropes for so long, there are cartoons full of them for kids UNDER 10... SO by about 14, you probably already knew "Treasure Island", whether you read it or not... BUT it can get a "pass" because it's historically relevant, and it's worth a perusal to see WHERE AND WHEN those tropes were started... to get a touch of the evolution, so you get an idea of about where to go if you take it up and want to pursue such an idea...
Avatar-1 started out preachy, and slacked-off on the "writing talent" when they can't even be bothered to clean out "placeholders" like "Unobtainium"... Tell me you're making an "evils of colonial exploitation" movie without telling me "this is an evil colonial exploitation movie". Instead of wasting a bunch of time for visuals, there could've been ethics discussions, feedback to something government-related, even an outright halt to military support when intelligent life was put at risk, AND an evil corporate entity or CEO, someone with near-unlimited wealth to throw, to offer corruption... bribe his way... buy mercenaries...
BECAUSE yes, there are evil humans... That's easy enough. The reality is STILL that humans are NOT inherently evil... not even just the white ones. SO no, don't insult your audience in part or completely, and don't EVER insult their intelligence. Those who "get it" will love it. Those who don't will probably try watching it again, and even discuss the thing with friends, eventually figuring it out... ;o)
Not having expectations is dangerous. Like relativism: if you take in, accept anything, including the most horrible hurtful actions humans can made, you trespass your moral compass. We can tolerate some mistakes, but not anything. We need messages talking to our common sense of what's make us humans.
Could tell within the first minute that this guy was speaking my language, thank you sir
[6:40] The sea aquarium was closed that week for maintenance, so it had to be Avatar 2 :-)
Yes my thoughts exactly- but my only take is- start with the video with "don't have odd expectations via your own personal values". Like judging a book that creates the tropes that you're judging it by lol. The irony of this is coming from an accomplished writer blows my mind.
I feel like meeting the movie where it is is tough. When "where it is" is somewhere like Star Wars: Episode 9, a movie that is constantly undoing its own franchise for no good reason, I think it's nearly impossible to just go with the flow. When we've seen how great fantasy blockbusters can be (including other Star Wars films), why just accept such an aggravating movie watching experience?
Well, I feel like in that case, the movie has already built its own expectations. If Episode 9 was the very first movie, there would be no (or not as much of a) problem with it (other than the obvious lack of context, but that's besides the point)
So, personally I don't think "meeting the movie where it is" is a problem that needs to be solved. When a movie or franchise builds its own expectations, it should be held to said expectations, or else it makes itself a bad movie/franchise.
That's the way I see it, at least as of writing this. I'd be interesting in hearing what you have to say about it, though.
I so agree Jacob. I don't spend my money or waste my time with movies that seem nothing but destruction of material they're riding the coattails of.
@@SparkKnight556 I guess that is a fair point. That's probably why it's become a lot easier for me to enjoy standalone/original movies these days. A lot of the current major franchises have built up expectations and preconceived notions to an insane level, so it's only natural that they start to become disappointing if they show even the slightest bit of wear.
Every time I hear someone talk about "the rules" or "the paradigm" or "expectations" I want to write something that breaks every last one of them. It's the rebel in me.
Thelma & Lousie, Butch Cassidy & The Sundance Kid... Great examples of film endings!🏆 I'd add another, "The Chinese Connection"....Guns fire and the hero freeezes in mid air!😎
how is someone even able to turn their brains or expectations off? I can pass up on some writing mistakes here and there, but if they mistake is pivotal in the plot, or the mistakes end adding up too many times, it just ruins everything
I think if something like that Avatar 2 detail only happened once it’s a dumb convenience but in that movie people are CONSTANTLY making dumb decisions in the heat of the moment to try to save their loved ones, which to me makes it instead an intentional theme about what fear for protecting others makes us do and how often we end up making matters worse.
Idiot plots are a quick way to annoy your audience
@@andrewgreeb916 i don’t think it’s an idiot plot if the characters are otherwise smart until something threatens a family member
Good video, I get fed up when I can work it out early even from the trailer. Shutter Island was the worst example, The Prestige is the best, you had no chance of working it out
It's extremely rare for me not to predict outcome of movies. Also I actually rather a change to normal narrative. So I'd rather a bad ending most of the time.
Of course, it's so simple.
Unfortunately when you're trying to better your own art, you pick up a critical eye and it becomes hard to put down that set of glasses. That includes worldbuilding and you can find yourself encountering bewilderment when trying learn something from a "published" author.
Perfect example: the movie Bright. For me, it needed more world building. I loved the orcs, I wanted more of the fairies and I couldn't stand the elves and the magic boogaloo. If enough worldbuilding actually was done, it was shortchanged by the movie format and it should've been a mini series. I demand a redo because I really loved the modern day DnD concept and I for one want to see more.
Hands down smartest guy you have ever had on here. HANDS DOWN.
“….where it seems like an action has been taken either because the writer is being lazy or the character is being stupid….man you could’ve done better than that” .
This is exactly how I felt about Daenerys Targaryen’s character in season 8 precisely when Viserion was killed and she did not go ahead with Drogon to destroy the iron fleet. But the character is not stupid m, just the two D were lazy and wanted to last the plot.
Dude King Lear spoilers
I know, right? Now I don't want to see it.
Personally, my pet peeve--and yeah, I'm keeping this one--is when a movie repeats something that's been done before in other movies so many times... if I'm rolling my eyes and going, "Oh, _this_ again," the writers lost me.
Like the extremely unhelpful and snarky counter-help in a sitcom; the recurring nurse in "The Big Bang Theory" comes immediately to mind. I can point to that character in so many other contexts; it's overdone, overused. Or the orphan protagonist who doesn't believe in themself in a kid's movie; been there, done that.
Cut-and-pasting tropes does not a good movie make.
On the “orphan” trope - the reason it works for kids movies is because with kids with parents don’t have “adventures”.
They have outings. They have day trips. They have bed times, and school in the morning.
They aren’t spelunking for treasure in the swamps of Louisiana.
@@UnleashthePhury Goonies didn't need orphans.
Peter Pan didn't need orphans.
Honey I Shrunk the Kids didn't need orphans.
Home Alone didn't need orphans.
Toy Story didn't need orphans.
I could go on, but the point is that the orphan trope has been driven into the ground _and_ is thoroughly unnecessary.
@@BionicDance but they all need the parents out of the picture for one reason or another. (Or at least, 2/3 do - I’ve actually never seen Goonies)
And with orphans, there’s no option to just “go home”.
@@UnleashthePhury And if "parents out of the picture" is what bothered me, I would have said so; I said 'orphan' and _meant_ 'orphan'.
It's just lazy shorthand for, "Okay, everybody, think of our protagonist as the next Annie/Oliver Twist, okay?"
The movie sounds like it needs to end with a big splash screen at the end of it saying "Come To Jamaica!"
Will my book jbe rejected because the first chapter (1900 words) is a flash back (in media res)? How can I be sure of this? Thank you
7:56 sums up life
Avatar 2 was trash, it forgot most of the progress of the first 1, recycle the antagonist, and go everywhere and nowhere at the same time
In acts 1 & 2 of Heat, Deniro is a stable and street smart character who becomes an reckless idiot in act 3 with no setup.
I mean, he was in a violent shootout in broad daylight where a bunch of cops and members of his crew were killed - he was probably freaked out.
I thought the setup was the: "Don't allow anything into your life that you can't walk away from immediately," thing. Val Kilmer's character follows that dictum and gets away, whilst De Niro's character falls in love, can't ditch her and fails.
Where do you learn this kind of stuff?
I can't relate to what he's saying about Avatar 2 because I didn't watch it.
All good. We haven't seen it either.
He makes perfect sense if a character puts themselves in danger. I also check out an don't rout for them. Especially if it's anything like a horror movie if the characters do anything knowingly and willingly. That was super easy to avoid but they chose to do it anyway knowing all the risks involved. Wich could lead to harm or death but they do it anyway then they literally and figuratively bring it upon themselves. So why so why should I care what happens to someone that did something. Who didn't even care about themselves because if they did care about themselves they. Would of made a easy choice an not did the action that put themselves in danger of getting hurt or killed.
For example hooking up with a random person or just sleeping with someone. Knowing about stds an risk of getting pregnant I'm not judging anyone here. But it's easy to avoid those risk and possible consequences it's called. Don't sleep with anyone an then you have zero chances of getting a std or getting pregnant. Unless you're sexually assaulted but that's a different story. But if you knowingly and willingly have sex with someone knowing these are possible outcomes. Then you can't play the victim an expect sympathy from people. When you get a std because you didn't know that person or anything about them. So you brought the std apon yourself for one night of fun so why should I feel sorry or care about that character. Then if someone doesn't want to have children yet but they go around having sex knowing it. Can lead to pregnancy then go an have this big it's only about me ark. Where they go I have plans I'm not ready to have a child because they will only get in the way of may plans. I don't an cannot care about a character like that ether because if she had plans. Thet getting pregnant would get in the way of then she should not of gone around having sex. Because she knew that having sex could lead to her getting pregnant in the first place. So no sex willingly means no stds or no pregnancy because they are both easy to avoid. But people in movies do those things knowing an willingly knowing the possible consequences. Then when they have to face one of those consequences an the characters. Don't like it they feal like they should be able to do anything consequence-free. Then I don't feel bad for anything that happens to them because those consequences whore easily avoid. By simply not having sex so they didn't care about their health or their plans so why should I.
Because for everything someone does there is a consequence they can be good or they can be bad. But if you don't like the possible consequences of those actions. It's easy enough to avoid those consequences by not doing those actions.
This goes for every action not just the ones I used above. If you do something knowing there is negative or bad consequences. Then you have to deal with those consequences I'm not going to feel sorry for you. Because you did that action fully aware of those possible consequences now you have to deal with them. This goes for anything like a similar saying goes if you do the crime you do the time. If you don't want to do the time then don't do the crime then you don't have to do the time. It's about taking an accepting the consequences of your actions for good or ill.
Then don't play the victim when you knowing an willingly did those actions. Knowing the possible consequences of those actions. Because if it's a horror movie I'm going to be routing for that characters death. Because they easily could of avoided the thing that's going to kill them. But they chose to do the actions that lead to it when it was easily avoid.
I knew he would mention King Lear
I was thinking it would be Hamlet.
I was a HUGE fan of Avatar I. Saw it something like 15x in the theater. Avatar 2 I saw one time and didn't want to see it again, but not for the reason you mention. To me:
1. They did this thing where for much of the movie, scene-by-scene the exact things happened, in the same sequence, and in the same way as the first one (only in the water instead of the forest). I guess they thought that was clever? It wasn't... It felt re-cycled.
2. The "whale scene" was gratuitous to the point of being lazy and just bad filmmaking. They gave us a scene that was so over-the-top evil, and with so little motivation by the "bad guys" that it was unpalatable. Give the audience more credit than that! Sheesh. Let me see a reasonable villain who follows some reasonable actions to achieve something understandable. I felt like the filmmaker was treating us like small children and beating us over the head with a stick.
"Audiences will leave"
No matter what, masses gladly chew and swallow whatever the system throws their way.
Sheep people never question.
Is it even worth having a "test audience" when they might interrupt the natural flow of the story?
Sometimes it makes the story better to test it out, and see how people react to it. Shawshank Redemption is much better with the ending it has rather than the one that is more in line with the book. Also, look at Batman the Animated Series, where the censors, or fear of encountering what the censors would say, led to more creative decisions.
I don't need to see Avatar 2 to know that it's a movie about pretty pictures. Extremely valuable to hear that heroes must act smart, which I suspected, but also is worrying because I can only make them as smart as I am.
7:38 This philosophical approach only works with a broad buffet of entertainment boasting a range in quality and taste. But Hollywood has "boiled the frog slowly" with cookie cutter scripts, CGI stuffing, and prioritizing spectacle over story. It's reached the point where dumbing oneself down is no longer a choice but a requirement for 90％ of films being produced. We encourage Hollywood's low standards by indulging them with our own.
I experience (and agree with) what he is saying about the audience A LOT when I watch k dramas 🤣.
I found _Treasure_ _Island_ satisfying when I was 11 years old. Just the right level of predictability. I've learned to predict fiction, but you have to start somewhere. I think I started with Seuss. What a predictable gloob. My wife hates with when I read a page of her gothic novel and spoil the twist before she's read it. I can't help it. Did you know Alice dies in the end? Don't ask.
There was no reason for avatar 2 to have a bad story, it had hundreds of millions spent on it that's enough to buy the best story writers.
Its not acceptable.
Ace the intentions to get great stories.
Happiness = Reality - Expectations. Expectations high and Reality low means you’ll be unhappy. And vice versa means happy
I completely agree with his comment regarding the ineffective storytelling in the second Avatar movie. But then, story telling has _never_ been James Cameron's bread and butter. He cares more about the spectacle than the story. Saw the same thing with Titanic.
Stupid movie: in the freezing water, out of the water, in the water, out of the water....last ones to die
Meet it where it is. Fast And The Furious agree. Family!
Family!
I feel insulted when I watch movies like Lost, where there's just no secret to discover, no explanation to all the mystery, or Whiplash, where the bad guy's personality seems to change all the time just to add twists to the story.
Whenever i hear someone complain to me about the lack of character development or flat plot in monster movies im like. "Bro, i dont care about that in those sorts of movies. I care about seeing giant monsters beat shit out of each other."
Lol
So Dumb and Dumber is actually a Tragedy?! That explains a lot.
I guess it's a good sign that I've made the political conflict in my story so complicated that even I have no idea what's going to happen, then? 😅
I thought I understood this video until the end, the moral of the story is there's no such thing as a bad movie?
Tommy Wiseau: what about me?
Avatar 2 was bad and I wasn't expecting anything from it. It's just terribly designed.
Make your own movie
@@gijane2cantwaittoseeyou203 Is that gonna change Avatar 2?.
The hour + of teen alien drama 🙄
@@proto-geek248 And literally every type of pandering. It is seriously boring to say the least.
What are your writing pet peeves?
Deus ex machina.
As he said, characters making dumb decisions. Unless you seed it that they have a terrible stress response or are so blinded by something that they can't see past it, it's just bad writing.
In no particular order they are:
Any writing that will rely heavily on spectacle at the sake of story. They can't craft a good story so instead they craft impressive action sequences or brilliantly elaborate worlds to awe the audience. Lame.
Mary Sues. They are detestable. I need say no more than that.
Starting an interesting "side quest" storyline but failing to wrap it up or even take it anywhere at all past the first invocation.
Trying to come up with the most cleverest bestest ever plot twist that "no one has seen before" and failing out loud.
"Subverting expectation" writing.
Any writing that needs an audience to suspend disbelief BUT they take that suspension far too far and just comes off as weak and stupid and utterly implausible. Classic example being writing your 100 pound heroine as someone who can easily toss around men twice their size and weight as though she had some kind of superpower and the writing isn't about superpowered persons.
Any writing that deliberately sacrifices plot or story to inject "diversity hires" into the mix "because reasons".
Any writing that has to dumb down men to elevate women instead of allowing those women to be good or better for good reason (that the reader or watcher will come to learn as we go). That's just lazy, hack writing at its finest.
Any writing that is so overtly political or ideological. YAWN. Boring. As a coy subtext that people have to figure out because they're sure they've seen this or heard this before, that's fine. When it's in your face it ruins all writing.
(pertaining specifically to movie/TV scripts) Any writing that goes out of their way to ignore all the canon and source material that came before it that made that IP popular in the first place because they want it for "a modern audience". Makes me want to puke. SO annoying.
Any writing that invokes race and/or gender swapping.
Any writing that takes a good idea as a standalone and just HAS to make a sequel or trilogy "because reasons". Some writings are perfect BECAUSE they are standalone and any continuation would muddy the waters. Some things don't need and shouldn't have a follow up.
Any writing that simply "tries too hard". Less is more. You don't have the write the most clever thing to ever be read before. Sometimes too many ingredients kill the soup.
On killing the soup, any writing that tries to smash a longer narrative into a compressed and heavily chopped up one-off. Take Raimi's Spider-Man 3. Too many cooks in the kitchen and all the food was half cooked.
So...the moral of the story is, "Don't worry about the bad, illogical, asinine writing, just look at the pretty moving pictures and leave your expectations of reason at the door to the theater"? Sorry pal, not buying into that.
_A_ break from reason _or two_ in the story of a movie won't necessarily sink my enjoyment of it (the light-activated trap in the Temple of the Chachapoyan Warriors and Indiana Jones somehow making it all the way from just off Egypt to a small Greek island on the _outside_ of a German submarine, both from _Raiders of the Lost Ark_ spring to mind as forgivable. But don't abuse it! And don't contradict your own setup, lore or canon, either.
I'm sorry but 8:04 is just in defense of bad writing and storytelling. It's a cop out.
Comedy doesn't necessarily need to result in growth and community.
I'm thinking of Dumb and Dumber.
Jake took a big risk to try to save his daughter. It wasn't guaranteed to fail, but it did. This dude in this video is entitled to his own opinion, but his crappy opinion doesn't objectively make it bad writing.
I call it face value, when gives what if offers. A perfect example is Fast 9, were you expecting some deep multilayered character study here?
Yeah, that's a bad message. That's how you end up with IDIOCRACY
What's a bad message?
Pandering is pandering regardless of expectations. Don't insult me if you want me to watch your movie.
What what if the character is stupid like dumb and dumber and such??
How many more characters like that can you think of?
@@filmcourage In movies or real life?
Why do you ask?
This is why I dislike most horror movies: a bunch of dumb people making obviously stupid moves just because the plot requires carnage. Yet, I guess they are useful sometimes when in need to release pressure from (fortunately) repressed sociopathy in a controlled way.
He doesn't like the character because the character don't know he's making a mistake? What?!?
its when the mistake its too blatant or its out of character.
I wish the doctor who writers would watch this
AI needs addressing
How so?
@@filmcourage Everyone is freaking out writers can be replaced. Certainly, not now, but very soon. A producer doesn't need talent at some point. Kinda needs addressing.
I agree with many points but disagree with theres no bad or good movies. Ive seen some really stinkers and wouldnt watch them again.
I think we have entered an age where the vast majority of the populace is too sophisticated to be entertained by anything. If thats the case , let them entertain themselves.they surely arent going to make any films
He literally just said what I’ve been saying for last few years . STOP watching these movies with your own expectations because 9/10 their never going to be met and you’re ultimately letting yourself down, not the filmmakers. Enjoy it for what it is and keep it pushing .
I don't understand the point being made here - is he saying there's no such thing as a bad movie, and we just have to turn our brains off? The mistakes listed make sense; I agree with those pet peeves - but then it seems he turns around and says he's the problem for having standards in the first place - wtf? Disaster Artist is fun because we know how awful The Room is, and we care about the hero's passion, not about his movie; there's a pleasant irony in the disparity - nobody's asking us to appreciate The Room
fact is, there are a lot of stories that are really good but will never see the light of the screen. And there a lot of shitty movies that should never have been made. So there must be a design flaw somewhere along the road from script to screen. It's called MONEY. Mainstream is what most people would pay money for to see. As the average Joe is not the sharpest tool in the shed, the movies that are made tend to be not the most intelectually challenging ones.
Please tell me where to watch avtar 2 free i dont have money but i want to watch AVTAR 2 is there availbale free??😢😮😭😭😭
I totally agree with that. Avaxxxx2 just isn't my type. Including the first one too.