Blues Players are "OVERRATED" but Shredders Lack "FEEL"...
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- čas přidán 20. 08. 2024
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I don’t understand how anyone can listen to Joe Satriani and say he lacks feel.
He’s a lyrical shredder. He writes songs. The rest do not. You have to have feel to be that melodic.
Satch's real talent is melody
Joe”s one in a billion tho
@@swardmusic absolutely.
@@QuickSticks8771 This is also very true. And underappreciated. I think he'll pull of Eddie just fine.
Richest shredder was EVH by far, who was also a blues player.
This.
There are some that bridge those worlds well - SRV has to come to mind. Feel is a relative thing as is tone. Some folks a crazy about Joe Bonamassa and others say he's "too technical" - end of day, what do you want to hear? Eric Johnson, Plini - have great range, tone, feel in my opinion - but it's just that. If you like the deep feel that Mayer gets with slow dancing in a burning room - well, then you like it. If it doesn't turn you on, then it's not a matter of him being a lesser player, he's just different. I'll never have your speed (which I admire, along with your melodic playing) or even finger span (I have two types of issues with my hands that have required multiple surgeries), but I do what I can and what I aim for (what I guess most of us aim for) is something that sounds right to us.
And you know what's actually great? You don't have to choose. You can listen to and enjoy both and anything in between :) I very often drive long distance between Germany and home in Poland and I can easily listen to Slayer, BB, Toto, Bon Jovi, Robben Ford, Marty Friedman and Cardinal Black during the same trip. 🤫😘
Same! I take road trips in America and drive for 10-12 hours one day, 6 the next. And, my play lists go from newer Bros. landreth, John Mayer, to 70s (Wings, Bad Company, the Eagles) to 80s hair metal, to 80s rock (Toto, Journey) to 90s (Pearl Jam, wallflowers) to southern rock (Allman Bros) to Blues (Buddy Guy, SEV) to fusion Allen Hinds and Holdworth to country Eddie Rabbit…etc etc Guitars for me! And good song writing (melodies)! 🤘🏻 🎸
Regardless of whether you are playing blues licks, or shredding it won't mean anything to most people if there's not a good song behind it. Then you have to ask yourself, what does this song need? Sometimes the song needs some blues based licks and sometimes it needs a bit of shred.
I'm mostly a three chords and the truth kind of player, but I always admired people like Steve Stevens who could definitely shred a little, but always played to the song. Shredding just to shred, or playing blues licks just to play them is basically talking just to hear yourself speak.
This 💯💯💯💯
John Mayer got rich being a pop star, not a blues player.
Most overrated guitarist I can think of. His playing his pure mimicry. He’s spectacular at it. But he doesnt have his own voice unless you ask anyone under 25 who never heard the blues.!
@@handyc77neon was pretty original…. Slow dancing lick is so memorable it’s almost become the modern day stairway in guitar stores…. Almost every young guitar I know cites JM as an inspiration…. You must be pretty conservative in passing out credibility huh lol
@@tonyz4292 Neon is Charlie Hunter. Almost exactly. There are session players who run circles around Mayer. And of course young people do. He's been around since 1998 and helped make the guitar fashionable again. He can play... But he mimics. Every song is derivative. He always plays it safe with his songwriting. He never takes chances. Even the Dead & Co gig, he was desparate to be relevant again, he pretty much begged them to do it. Yeah he can play. But if you think he's in the conversation for best guitarist? 1. There isn't one. That's what cool about it. 2. Every innovator of the instrument changed the way we play it. EVH did that. Hendrix did that. Montgomery did that. Al Dimeola did that.
Dude if you were alive in the 80's, it was all about how good of a shredder you were. And then Kurt Cobain landed. He said fuck you to wankers who masturbate solos, I've got 4 chords and the fucking truth. Cobain was a better songwriter than Mayer. I know young people like him. But he's been the only guitarist to really make a name for himself. And he didn't do it by playing guitar. He became a commodity writing pop songs.
@@handyc77 your very pessimistic in your take on Mayer, I honestly think he deserves credit whether or not he innovated anything, I don’t get why the bar is so high in your book… in a world where guitar has basically taken the back burner we should be celebrating every guitarist, especially guitarists that bring guitar back into popular music…. Whether or not you agree you have to be honest with yourself and accept the fact Mayer would get a lot of votes for most inspirational guitarist of the 2000’s….
@@tonyz4292 jesus. That may be the idealist fantasy you have. The only reason Mayer may be the most influential... you know why? You said it. The guitar hasn't been mainstream in the 2000's. Not since grunge. So he was a big fish in a small pond. And as he as said it himself, he's an ego addict and did "get lucky." Just to add. But he does nothing on the guitar we haven't heard over and over again. Before you were born.
Take it from Robben Ford and others like Clapton. It's all about the
songs. Write good songs and all the rest becomes a sidekick. And kicks we want. Matt Schofield is a gem. He too knows the relevance of the song.
This..
Completely agree with this. It's about the songs.
JNC rocking done relic pants in the intro 🔥 your intros are always so soothing and relaxing I almost forget that it is a CZcams video
Alan Holdsworth just sounds like morse code. Still in awe of his abilities though. It’s beautiful morse code.
I think personally both can be amazing guitar players in their own ways and both are very valid and can be great musicians. Rock, Jazz, Metal, Reggae, Blues and other genres are different you can't really compare, they need different approaches and you face different challenges. The problem is when people start looking at music and genres as a competition rather than art is when these comparisons and judgements get made based solely on opinion. Can you compare Dimebag to David Gilmour? BB King to John Petrucci, Larry Carlton to Van Halen, Mark Knopfler to Steve Vai? or Jeff Beck to Lindsey Buckingham? Not really, you can compare how they play and approaches they take, But ultimately they play guitar and see and play music totally different from one another and all have become legendary timeless players so they definitely did something right.
As a guitar player for almost 50 years I definitely agree with you .but my playing is more with feeling because honestly shredding is kinda boring...just playing a bunch of super fast notes seems pointless.. I would rather play with feeling even if it's boring however ; I change it up and play faster notes too if I'm soloing...
They aren't mutually exclusive. Fast playing can be incredibly emotive and slow playing can be insipid and derivative. Feel and speed have nothing to do with one another.
Yngwie has a lot of Ferraris :-)
But he makes payments.
Yngwie’s net worth is $5. John Petrucci $10 million. For blues, Joe Bonamassa $20 million.
I don't really have a favorite blues player nor a favorite shredder, but I suppose that my favorite blues shredder is Gary Moore
A lot of blues fans would say he isn't really a blues player, but that's kinda why he's good. Isn't stuck in a box.
I listen to his live concert where he plays only Jimi Hendrix. His playing is amazing on that.
It's called the Dunning-Krugger effect. You get a bunch of amateurs who are just starting to understand music a little bit and suddenly they think they have some new amazing insight but they're just plain wrong.
That’s because they’re constantly thwarted by mutant turtles
😂
Is that you Krang?
YOU WIN: PERFECT!
The only rich shredders I can think of are a bit older than John Mayer. Basically any shredder that has scored a huge hit song as primary song writer. I can think of two, Paul Gilbert with Mr Big's To Be With You and Nuno Bettencourt with Extreme's More than Words. Does Mark Tremonti count as a shredder? He'd be pretty rich from Creed.
I don't know how well off these players are doing, but here's some of the players that I feel have lots of "feel".
Blues players: Eric Clapton, Joe Bonamassa, Josh Smith,
Blues/rock/Jazz: Eric Johnson, Steve Morse, Derek Trucks
Shredders: Joe Satriani, Steve Vai, John Petrucci.
These lists could get really long.
For those people who say "that player doesn't do anything for me", I would guess that they themselves might not have any "feel".
You are correct, you need both….at minimum. Not just blues and fast phrases but a clear understanding of jazz that’s also incorporated
I tend to try and play too many notes whilst blowing despite NOT have huge chops. Go figure.... and Holdsworth's playing is some of the most emotionally connected playing you will ever hear. IMHO.
In love with bluesy shredders like Vai and Satch, amazing technically and have lots of feeling.
If i’m honest i much preferred the intro to the outro here… as to the question posed my favourite ‘shredders’ were always EVH, Satch and Vai, my current favourite ‘bluesy’ players are Matt Schofield and Jack Ruch. Jack in particular just has amazing feel and restraint in his playing. Worth checking out.
I think its a great idea to copy singers. Celine Dion is incredible, but when you transcribe her vocals, there is very little going on. But it is jaw dropping. She does these wonderfull little inflections at the end of her notes. Also the envelope of each note is subtle but the effect is jaw dropping. How she builds from low notes to high notes is epic. No one will go wrong with a bit of Celine Dion in their playing. Check out her version of ''Oh Holy night'', the climax at the end leaves you breathless. Perfect phrasing -perfect delivery - prefect note delivery - perfect dynamics. I remember Alan Murphy once said, learn to play one note perfectly before you learn to shred. (Paraphrasing there a bit). He was a master at playing one note! It's my humble opinion that your playing becomes more relatable when it mimics the inflections of a human voice.
If I went back in time I would tell my younger self to get over himself and learn to love and play all styles of music, particularly popular music that earns money. Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you food, water, shelter and guitars.
I'm attracted to beautiful melodies that both hold you and surprise you. These can both be accomplished through feel with some shred tossed in -- or not. I much prefer John's opening take as opposed to the closing take. But even the closing take works because there are some nice melodic ideas.
I have never thought Mayer should have the title Blues player. He is a pop artist who happens to have started with and is very good at blues guitar. But when has he ever written or played a blues song that became big or made him dough?
Check the numbers of sales for the Continuum album.
@@ghostofborsalino2752 I know how well it did it's my favorite album too... But I don't think anyone would say Your Body is a Wonderland is a blues based song... My point is in regards to the title of John's post here... I don't consider Mayer a blues player. If his bluesiest record sold the most I'm happy about it... I just think blues players play blues music... Just one guy's opinion
Props for mentioning Marco Sfogli! You should do some Monday lick lessons on his stuff!
There are blues players without songs. There are shredders without songs. Both make music I don’t want to listen to.
Yngwie Malmsteen is that rich shredder
Tim Henson and Tosin Abasi. I love blues and shred but those 2 are the true innovators.
Whatever. Pyrotechnics can be fun in a live situation, I guess but 'you have to be there'. The guitarists I rate (me, myself, personally) are the ones who have played solos (on records) I can remember, that I can sing to myself in my head - solos that have an underlying melody that adds to and lifts the actual song . . . I like music, I don't dislike gymnastics per se, but I can sorta live without it.
Fave (modern) shredder.. Tim Henson.
While listening to what you were saying I just thought of one of my early influences. Michael Schenker.. a great example of a shredder that played with a heavy blues influence..
I think Davey Knowles and Greg Koch are two guys who really knock it out of the park with their playing, although Greg is more than a blues player. They both combine speed with more measured playing but it's the expressiveness that really grabs you.
Fast or slow it's always there., awesome stuff.
Steve Vai must be pretty well off because he made sure to own his own publishing, advice from Frank Zappa apparently.
I think you nailed it by saying it’s ideal for a player to sit somewhere in the middle of the blues vs shredder spectrum.
It’s all a bit meta but we as general guitar fans are naturally more inclined towards more elaborate or intricate playing. Similar with a non player who loves jazz as an example, it’s hard to imagine they wouldn’t like a bit of virtuosity in their soloists. But to the average person on the street they’d probably be more moved by the hook from Baker Street or the slide break in Angels by Robbie Williams or the sax in The Best by Tina Turner or Ritchie Sambora’s 8 bars in Livin’ on a Prayer than anything super technical. So who knows what’s actually “better.” As long as the player and the listener are enjoying it then that’s all that matters I guess.
I think guitar players in general are becoming better frankly, and its not really enough anymore to be a 1 dimensional player, especially if you wanna do the social media thing. The bar is just so high now.
It’s down to preference and it’s good there are choices. There is no greatest player, just great songs with great playing. The best known solos are telling: Another Brick in the Wall, Part 2; Bohemian Rhapsody; Beat It; Comfortably Numb; All Along the Watchtower; Stairway to Heaven; … there are many others. One thing that always puzzled me was how most “Shredder” playing seemed to be backed by particularly pedestrian bass and drums. Perhaps to highlight by contrast the technicality of the guitar? Years ago someone suggested I take a close listen to what Jack Bruce and Ginger Baker were doing when Cream were in full flight and I realised why Clapton seemed (and was) so extraordinary in that context: he’s not playing in front of them, he’s dancing with them.
I think that old live version of “crossroads” by Cream is some of my favourite lead playing ever and it’s kind of blues shredding! It seems to me that blues or any kind of playing that conveys emotion is kind of like a mating call..er..maybe it’s just about sex - whereas a boy shredding seems to be for other shredders and lacks that kind of emotion..maybe it’s more akin to masturbation (sorry for my language)
I’m rubbish at both btw 😂
David Gilmour is probably the best example of a guy that doesn't shred but makes every note count.. I love what David Gilmour does as well as Joe Bonamassa, Eric Gales and George Benson but I also loved Holdsworth, Guthrie Govan, Matteo Mancuso, Joshua Meader and Frank Gambale.. Then there's Wayne Krantz who's in a category all by himself !
I think it's a good rule of thumb that you should be able to sing what you're playing. You can't sing as fast as you can play guitar so that will keep you in a good balance in terms of shredding and it will be more memorable.
On the highest level of guitar players. they correctly lnterpret the music, and employ their soul into it. Ex. Gibson Clapton Crossroads live.
Great topic!
Just go to your Oopps I did it again video. Outstanding Playing in that Video. Great sound and playing in that Jake Custom Shop Fender Telecaster video.
Beautiful playing 👋👍
What tone machine you using on this video?
My favourite guitarist by far (other than Clapton) is Derek Trucks. To me, he strikes a perfect balance between feeling, tone, and inimitable technical audacity.
I listened to the combination of solo and backing track in the intro but just the solo in the outro, blocking out the backing instuments. The intro was better music to my ears for that reason. If you listen to the Clapton solo again (I Shot The…Royal Albert Hall 2015 halfway through) and you’ll hear him do the same as your intro does, allowing the accompanying instruments to bleed through and help create the overall sound and texture. of the solo.
It's just maths! The more notes you play the less individual expression you can apply to each note. If ,as a master carpenter you're hand shaping or carving a piece of beautiful wood, you must put more subtle touches all over, because the scale of view of the consumer of that sees it will see more of each part (each note). On the other hand if you're building a whole cottage, you'll have a more industrial or neutral treatment of each board but they'll be viewed more as a whole so minor things like the polish on each (note) blends into the whole, like 24 frames a second, making a moving motif greater than the sum total of all the parts. Matteo Mancuso has plenty good touch ( he uses fingers, for God's sake;) and touchy feely players like Jeff Beck play only small clusters of fast notes and then lie back, but probably achieve a rougher finish in their faster passages. Players like Yngvei have a rippling smooth effect on their faster passages, but sometimes run out of expressive ways to play more slow sparse bits sometimes, but who cares? People have different temperaments and moods which colour the way they play, and the way they perceive other players, so it's going to be that way anyway. If you're eighteen and full of not much more than testosterone, maybe constant fast machine like notes are shreddy enough to enhance your vicarious cathartic enjoyment of the music, and if you hear Doc Watson playing a finger-picked piece that's as laid back and pretty as a picture you might think well I'm not eighty, and don't feel like drinking tea and snoozing in an armchair, you won't be enjoying it much, unless he swings back, playing a rapid-fire flat-picked hot version of Black mountsin rag. I've yet to hear anyone accuse ZJimi of having no feel, even though he at times almost shredded on a noisy feed-back laden blues box like Gary Moore on sedatives. Some players can be fast and slow and expressive, whereas others ( naming no names apart from myself) who suck equally at either. It's like food or romantic partners, some are attractive and some aren't, but that's just personal taste. A player I feel unmoved by , may strike or invoke some kind of deep memory or feeling in resonance with a person also listening, but being on a different wavelength from me they'll have a better experience. There are, of course some players who seem to have neither technique nor feel, and I reserve the right to have this opinion of them, but feel it pointless and not constructive to mention it, because I just may spoil someone elses fun. If I'm asked, I politely reveal my thoughts as honestly as I can, but social media is not often a place of mature exchsnges.
There is an old guitar adage: You can play 3 chords to 1000 people or 1000 chords to 3 people. Same goes for the number of notes in your solos. The average person in the audience doesn't care how fast you are as long as they can hum the melody that is now stuck in their head.
Playing is like communicating. Does the listener understand the language? With trolls usually not just regurgitating negative comments and their own self doubt.
Eric Clapton and John Mayer are mainly excellent song writer. It has nothing to do with beeing a blues player or shredder.
Some guitarists take themselves way too serious. In reality no one cares about your guitar skills or the the guitar solo. You just need to write good songs.
which guitar player did he mention after Eric Johnson?
Andy james. Shred with great feel and melody.
Rhanks!
Interesting! I think for most listeners, musicians or not, you want to listen to a song, not guitar playing. And that I think goes for all genres. Clapton, Mayer, they’re rich and successful because they’re primarily great songwriters and performers. They adapt their playing to the material and the audience.
Richest shredder? I think it depends on what Steve Vai did with his David Lee Roth and Whitesnake money.
And Andy Timmons …👍 not a great blues example I suppose but the balance between fast and slow and tasty
I think Andy Timmons strikes almost as perfect of a balance as one can get between those things.
fast or slow, my favorite players are looking for melodies.
How do they know what the Shredder is feeling ?
the answer is pretty easy , would you spend your money on it ? who bought any eurovision songs ?
Like life - gotta be a balance imo :)
Blues is defined by certain musical cliches that are just done to death. If a guitarist has excellent phrasing that isn't a blues thing - it's universal to all genres. Blues isn't like jazz that is constantly reinventing itself and pushing boundaries; there is a resistance to change or new ideas within the blues guitar world and as a result blues players often end up repeating tired cliched playing.
I do agree that many shredders do lack feel (the 3NPS types common in metal) specifically because their tones remove all dynamics and the 3NPS style means the guitar is playing them, rather than them having mastery over the guitar. I dislike that for the same reason I dislike the trend of acoustic open-string-drumming wankery. The guitar is playing the guitarist. But I do think that a lot of bad guitarists get stuck in the blues and metal genres and make up copes for it, like "feel", and "technique" whereas in reality both groups are one-dimensional players. But how do we define "shredders"? Holdsworth transcended the guitar and imposed his will on it, he certainly played fast enough to be a shredder, as did Shawn Lane, but it's ridiculous to pretend that they didn't have godly feel and phrasing. "Shredding" seems to really mean having mastery over the instrument and striving for technical excellence, like any other instrument aspires towards. Most of the time the label is used as a coping mechanism by technically limited players. I've never liked how so much of the guitar community is anti-aspirational like this, celebrating shitness and trying to tear down excellence. It's unique to the guitar, I've noticed it on forums for years.
Everything you just wrote is spot on accurate. The phrasing thing…yeah, that’s IN you, you’re born with that. (It can be learned to a certain extent, but in a limited way). And you bring that to whatever music style or instrument you decide to play.
Shawn Lane…awesome phrasing with alien level technique. The dynamics thing…hit it exactly. That overly distorted tone compresses the signal and add to that, to play fast, you have to achieve a level of evenness and a light touch.
And your statement about the “unpracticed, limited musical knowledge lame players” is right on, too.
You really nailed everything here.
None of it matters. Like what you like! 😎
The idea behind the title to this video is this weird compulsion humans have to try to generalize something that makes individuals unique. People like different stuff and probably not as many people, in general, are compelled by shred music. Blues compels more of the general pop, and someone who likes shred is probably more likely to play guitar, and make broad generalizations about how music isn’t consumed correctly by other people
The sculptures are growers not showers, man 😂
It depends what you're trying to accomplish with your music. Perhaps you're a librarian and curator of music of the Past, or maybe you're a technical guitar gymnast. Both have their place, and can be entertaining, but will likely be subject to criticism as being overrated or lacking feel.
I think it's better to work on making something new that is your own. Personally, I'd rather listen to something new, but perfectly performed, than a perfect rendition of something old made by someone else. Be bold, and let the chips fall where they may.
What about blues shredders like Eric Johnson and Joe Bonamassa? Lovely playing as usual loved the outro.
Bonamassa isn't really like Eric Johnson.
They both have blistering pentatonic runs, although different styles and applications.
If those 2 are shredders then every guitarist is a shredder.
@@intenzityd3181 really? hmm go and try play some of those odd grouping pentatonic runs at those speeds and as cleanly as them lol...
You could be an epic mix of shred and feel. I think they call that JNC style, no? ;)
Serve the song. Period.
C'est tellement difficile de rester soi !! 🤔
John Mayer writes killer songs and plays guitar to serve the song. If you don’t have a song, it’s all just diddling.
John Mayer’s money has come from decades of being a pop singer songwriter
If he were just a blues guitarist you probably wouldn’t know his name
A good compromise seems to me to be Joe Satriani
I'd say David Gilmour who's note selection, phrasing and feel are so good that you don't even think about speed !
It’s true, David, too, is one of those guitarists.@@Avatar7x7
Not being able to shred definitely solves the issue
John 5 has a higher net worth than John Mayer, I was kind of shocked to learn this.
I don't know if I believe that lol
I just happened to see a post about net worth of members of Motley Crew and has been listed at 105M. He grew up in a wealthy community and doesn't do drugs. Could be an inheritance and good investing.@johnnathancordy
You are a bluesy shredder cordy.
I dont think your overrated or lack feel
IM just gonna say what everyone is thinking, MOZART IS UNDER RATED . There I said it. He is the best guitar player ever, and he didnt even play guitar.
Lil Wayne is rich shredder
Richest shredder, Vai?
Guthrie Govan
Muscular men down in Rome
Resorting to "click bait" or running out of material for videos??
John Mayer….blues player? Ahahahahahah. Puppy blues….