Why Didn't The Androids Obey Doctor Gero?
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- čas přidán 17. 06. 2023
- Why Didn't The Androids Obey Doctor Gero? @LSMMIKE and @blackenfist discuss that in this Dragon Ball Z video featuring the DBZ Anime and Manga!
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Blackenfist being the guest today got me by surprise! Miss his videos
Is Josh next I wonder
Because they were angsty teenagers didn't want to listen to dad
I wouldn't either if dad was a psycho that kidnapped and experimented on me :/
@@tony_g6625that cut deep bro
@@youtubestudiosucks978he technically already accomplished that with Android 16. But was considered a failure by Gero for some reason.
@@wegoku7274 because he didn't want to kill, even not Goku probably like 8, and 19 was weak
24:45 24:45
I always assumed that 20’s body would be a walking life support system, so Gero’s brain would survive from decay.
(My very long) head canon has always been that Goku killed Gero's son when he attacked Red Ribbon as a kid, which truly sent Gero over the edge, so after that all his androids had the same basic programming of "Kill Goku" the other Z Fighters were secondary objectives, then world dominance and beyond.
16 - was a pet project, he wanted to bring his son back, even programmed his son's personality into 16, but never truly intended on waking him up hence telling 17 & 18 he's dangerous and would destroy everything almost like trying to scare them away from him.
17 & 18 - were the original two that he designed to go off and kill Goku, they were some of his most advanced designs, perhaps the resources he used to create the Unlimited Energy Cores were very scarce which is why he didn't use that with 19 and 20? he kidnapped the two teens because Goku was a Teen when he killed Gero's son so wanted him to go through the same thing, but their teen brains were too wild to really be controlled, they wanted to use their new abilities to essentially do whatever they wanted.
Cell -Cell was completely biological, he was his own living being, an amalgamation of all the most powerful fighters, thus being a living creature with a strong narcissistic personality would never serve someone like Gero, his Ki was similar to all of their but was not unlimited, he was created as his last resort, he realized 17 & 18 would never work so he created Cell to essentially use their Unlimited Energy Cores to Magnify his own power to greater heights than he could achieve on his own.
19 - Gero was tired of all the experiments, he went back to basics and created a Machine, with a limited learning AI, something somewhat autonomous but very easy to control.
20 - He didn't trust any of his creations to truly get the job done so the old saying "if you want something done, better do it yourself" so killing several birds with one stone implants his brain into 20, preserving his life since he was getting old and giving himself more power than he could ever imagine.
It was already stated Gero’s son was killed by an enemy bullet
I lik this flow of thought. I can get behind this !
That was great bro, everything you said was spot on and basically sums up the video!
Very cool, but less of a headcanon and more of just something from Dragon Ball Z Abridged, isn't it?
Gero didn't want horny pedos follow her around
Gero didn't have enough gym badges
Yeah he needs 80 just bad for him there are just 72 ...
this was really really funny
I like to imagine that Gero choose to have Cell absorb 17 and 18, partially out of revenge, and partially because it was easier to design Cell to be incomplete and essentially have him reuse 18 and 17's parts.
Yeah, cell was the backup plan if they disobeyed him and it happened,probably why he didn't bother reprogramming them since cell would take care of the job for him.
@@justinarzola4584 i get what you mean, but the idea of "why bother reprogramming them so I don't die? They'll die anyway." Sounds silly when written like that.
Like, dude don't you wanna live?!
@@denkerbosu3551as far I know gero tried to reprogramming them a few times, but it didn't work
@@ChrisAtheistfact
To add to the discussion about Gero's computer, I'm pretty sure that the computer that created 13, 14, and 15 not only had a personality modeled after Gero, but in fact believed it WAS Gero.
I mean, the AI probably knows it's not literally THE Dr. Gero, even if it seems to possess his consciousness. You would think that'd be programmed in to the AI as a foundational aspect of its being that its a copy and not the real thing. Just Like Gero making himself an android if hus goal was to immortalize himself he did it in a weird way because that would mean there'd be two of him at once psychologically one as an android with his physical brain and another as an artificially intelligent supercomputer.
My head cannon. Gero was working on 17 and 18, noticed they weren’t very cooperative, so put them to sleep to figure out how to get them to obey. (My guess is he was using brainwashing before, but now they were too strong to keep awake while brainwashing, aka they could break their restraints) while he was working on how to brainwash them now he contracted an illness, or just noticed his work may take longer then his natural lifespan, so he stopped working on everything else until he could figure out how to put his brain in a machine which would extend his life. Android 19’s design was his solution. Then he used 19 to help him put his brain into his new mechanical body. Then he was so excited about having such powers that he went out to experiment what his new bodies limits where. That’s when he met the Z warriors.
wholeheartedly agree
Cell sort of respected Dr. Gero for creating him. Dr. Gero also wouldn't have to order him to do anything given all the cells he was made out of he would have become perfect and killed Goku anyway, just by his personality and design.
Yeah, Cell clearly had a some level of attachment to Gero, from how open Cell was about acting on Gero’s will and plan. If he hated Gero, he would be in denial about his programming and the influence it had on his goals, and try to rationalize his decisions in some other way.
At the same time though, I don’t think it’s a father-son dynamic or anything so close. More like, Cell sees himself as this Messianic figure and Gero is his herald. It’s not so much out of personal consideration for Gero, but more “the old man has laid out my path to greatness, I only have to fulfill the prophecy to achieve it.”
And so long as Gero would be able to continually affirm to Cell that he is the great ‘chosen one’, destined to rule the universe, Cell would see enough value in him to let him live. Which makes it funny that they never got to actually interact, because I strongly doubt Gero would even know to play into Cell’s expectations as his cosmic hype man. Honestly, the story could have gone very differently if Cell’s internalized main character syndrome got put in doubt early on.
Cell would have still killed Gero.
In FighterZ, Cell blatantly says that he is not loyal to Gero or the Red Ribbon Army. He only cares about those who are useful to his pursuit for entertainment through power
Even though they were Androids, a lot of their humanity was still intact. 18 makes note of this when 17 decided it was better to drive to Goku's house instead of flying there. Another thing she says when Cell is trying to trick her with 17's voice is that they both hated Gero for transforming them into Androids. So despite working on them in hopes of correcting their flaws, that resentment they had for him never left.
You could also compare Vegeta and Frieza to that, Vegeta was under Frieza's thumb but then rebelled against him in a bid for power. Although, you might say that's a parallel to Star Wars more strongly, given the themes.
Always glad to see Blackenfist! Glad he is still around, he was one of the first Dragon Ball youtubers I watched regularly.
My thoughts are: 17 & 18 were podded for brainwashing, Gero moved on to build 19 to put himself in an android body, and 16 was just upgraded, but he hadn't finished re-programming 16 to his new, higher standards and all the directives beyond "kill Goku". But he thought he could take 'em, so went out with just 19 and 20.
In the future timelines, he *didn't* pod 17 & 18, who he sent out instead.
Also, the original Frankenstein's monster in the book wasn't made of body parts, but "non-living matter", animated through a "scientific process". The body parts thing was a movie adaptation. More like Cell (or, in theory, Buu), I'd think. The culmination and piece de resistance of his life's work, his masterpiece.
So the true question, what did Dr. Hedo do differently? Gamma 1 and 2 did eventually find out the "truth" but prior their updated info on the Z-Fighters they had no issue taking orders.
Both of them believed they were super heros. They literally explained in the first 15m of the movie that G1&2 were programmed to believe the z-fighters were all monstrous aliens hell-bent on taking over the planet and Bulma was their leader.
Two thoughts. 19 def was subject to independent desires and whims. He attempted to flee from Vegeta when he overpowered him. 2 I think a lot of these issues with disobedience and branching MOs stemmed from gero's probable intent to create artificial lifeforms that, in his opinion, were superior to strictly organic lifeforms and replace them. If he wanted to create life for that purpose, theyd have to be capable of free thiught and to have individual interests and desires. Imagine androids enjoying engineering, animal raising, architecture, and other things. The universe could be very advanced and beautifully designed. Great vid you guys.
I really wish toriyama wrote it that 20 and 19 were what trunks fought in the future and 17 and 18 were only activated in the present cause the z warriors were too strong. It would have filled alot of plot holes.
Not really
We could explain it C19&A20 we're destroyed by C17&C18
And About why 17&18 we're weaker they weren't they just never fought with their full power
Personally i think Cell's programming to kill Goku was just a precautionary step incase the other androids failed. I think he expected 17 and 18 to succeed and potentially wipe out most of humanity in the process, and Cell was meant to absorb them to not only become perfect and the "Ultimate Lifeform" but to dispose of them and stop them from damaging the planet further. It was Gero's intention to "better" mankind, but to his ideals. I also assume Gero expected to be alive at this time, and after Cell became perfect perhaps Gero's plan was to rule and have Cell as his main bodyguard or enforcer or even to go out and conquer other planets for him. Pure speculation on my part but i could see that being his goal in the end.
I want more info on gero, like origin, why he became evil, why he became red ribbon. Was he really evil or just doing his job and made to think he was the good guy. Gero has a tendency of making anti heros vs villains.
in GT it's stated that he wanted to replace humanity with androids, which makes sense since he turned himself into one.
as far as the original canon, I think it makes sense to just think that he wanted power and the red ribbon army was a good way to fund his research. I don't think he ever thought he was a hero. He never really espouses an ideology and he does kill random innocent people pretty casually.
Blackenfist is the most classic. First Dragon Ball channel I ever watched, one trillion years ago, when I was only 500 million years old.
Witcho ooolld AZZ!😮😂
Man can you or Danny just do a video specifically about Dr. Gero’s computer? This thing has a huge importance on the story in DBZ & it’s like a villain itself bc Cell wouldn’t have been completed without it & not to mention in the Super 13 movie it was responsible for releasing 13, 14, & 15 and it’s actually a really interesting concept that no one ever talks about. I like how y’all pointed out that his own computer might’ve had its own agenda. I’ve always thought that Dr. Gero uploaded his all of knowledge into it so that basically he would survive in some way even though he was killed by 17. It always reminds me of the movie Saw, how even though Jigsaw died he still had all this stuff set up & in place so it didn’t matter that he was dead, his plans still came into fruition. That computer is just cool af lol
Alright I'll bite. Let's find out why the Androids disobey Gero's orders 🤔
I believe 16 and 19 both used their own intelligence to either be more natural or follow orders, same with 17 and 18.. I just think once something is intelligent enough, it can decide on its own.. so technically I think 19 was just as able to be 'human' as the rest of them he just chose the human action of following orders.
16 and 19 were robots, 17 and 18 were random humans Gero shoved into his van and experimented on. Whether they have their memories in tact or not, they have A natural hatred towards him probably even subconsciously
Maybe perpetual models are just too capable of independent thinking, for whatever reason, and ki absorption models are more obedient. Kind of weird that Gero was worried about 16 but, other than loving nature, he seemed 100% obedient to Gero's wishes of killing Goku.
Between you and Quaman I can't get enough of you guys what in-depth guys get into DBZ. Im looking forward to one of yal to explore how future Gohan coped and grew up through that nightmare.
Because 17 & 18 were forcibly kidnapped & turned into Androids. They wanted to be in control of their own emotions & lives.
They hit android puberty and the programming mutated on its own. Nobody can control a sassy teenager
#8/Hach'chan is indeed a cyborg, i.e a real human being that was modified with cybernetic implants. He is listed as such in the Daizenshû Encyclopedia, that's why you see some scars on his face where he was operated on, that's why you can see him eat, drink and sleep, that's why he was brought back to life by Porunga along with all the people killed by Majin Boo, and that's why he's able to give some of his human ki to Gokû for the giant Genkidama.
17 also confirms the fact that in the past, Gero used to create his _jinzôningen_ (or at least some of them) by modifying real people. That is why 17 is so surprised to learn that 16 is a 100% mechanical android: "I don't get it... If Gero had the technology to create a fully functional _jinzôningen_ from scratch, why on earth did he revert to the old way which consisted in using a human base?"
The anime is a bit different, although it is said by General White in episode 39 that Hach'chan was created from a human corpse brought back to life as a _jinzôningen_ , just like Frankenstein's monster.
Its either because some of them still held on to their human memories or because Dr. Gero didn't have NordVPN or use Skillshare to learn coding
8 is based on Frankenstein , The cuts around the head gives the idea he has a human brain. but the non humans based ones do not seem to be able to gain power levels outside of what they did start at. like how 17/18 was able to kill everyone in the future vs what they could do at the time we meet them. 8 had a idea of right and wrong witch was tone down in 17/18 leading to why they did turn on him.
What are your thoughts on a theory of android 13 being a younger version of Gero?
Love the content man keep it up 💯
Supplies Supplies Supplies look at this dudes lab. He was short on time, materials, and money. I think he was out of it all and had to expose himself. It would be interesting if he stayed hidden until the RR resurfaced and he potentially worked with his son. Ps great to hear from blackenfist!
Toriyama is a big fan of Frankestein novel. Let's also remember that he invented Arale even before n.8. It is not db related so that's why it's not mentioned here :)
Very good analysis and observations of Dr. Gero and his android creations.
If you look at all the Androids that disobeyed Dr Gero, they all had wills and emotions. 8, 16, 17, 18, Cell
If you look at those Gero considered successful because they didn't betray him they were all mechanical without any emotions 16, 19, 20 (Gero himself)
Love these crossover videos!
Even if 20's brain did decay, I wonder if he'd replace his organic brain with a mechanical one kind of like a brain-sized version of his underground supercomputer which is essentially Gero's mechanical brain that carried on his work even after his death.
banger discussion. good quality.
This reminds me of the old days of dbz youtube so much
17&18 are cyborgs. No matter what, their responses will always be human.
Keep up the good work
There is no AI, it's advanced search engines so far
i always took it as a genious accidental move.
i look at it this way, the reason why they are both weaker and less unruly than their "future" version is bcause Dr Gero fckd it up. to control them better, he probably lowered their power output. but it also affected them mentaly, making them go insane as the conditionly became stronger. they were still able to kill him in that timeline, but just hearing "kill goku" in their heads all the time pushed them over the edge.
also, imagine you get that "kill goku" treatement and you wake up to find out he's already dead from some disease.
my boy you already posted this
Nope, you're just from the future.
Also i think that dr.Gero's brain is being preserved in that water almost like a futurama head
Gero is interesting
Keeping their personalities and even giving robots emotions it seems like he knows having that drive makes them stronger
His last resort was taking away emotion so they would listen. It's funny because even in the future that doesn't work out for him and the androids even weaker still end up killing him and almost everyone else
They weren't weaker they just never fought against trunks with their full power
Nice to se Blackenfist as a guest,
i think your theory of androids being more rebelious if they have human elements rings true,
Android 8 was probably composed of actual human remains ( like his inspiration the Frankensteins monster)
While 17 & 18 are orphan siblings named Lapis & Lazuli that were modified with mechanical upgrades ( cyborgs pretty much), hope Toriyama expands on them
Would make sense the anime revivied with the Dragonballs android 8 a few times, while Android 16 is still destroyed
I’ve started wondering after watching one of your more recent videos if Gero continued working on 16 and made 19 and 20 as a fail safe for 17 and 18 going rogue because his super computer that was watching the battle of trunks, Frieza, and cold and later overheard trunks saying the androids immediately turned and killed Dr. gero, and that’s why they were awakened for a second time rather than it being the first time.
That's probably the best reasoning I've yet seen, and I hadn't even thought of that.
If Gero was actually smart he would have put a back up protocol somewhere like in his super computer that can initiate the detonation of android 17 and 18 if they attacked him.
How would the computer know if they attacked him? It's not realistic
Blackenfist lives! Woah that’s nice!
I’m at work in need of great content that’s about 40 Min long , that’s fate
I kidnapped you , why aren’t you obeying me 😂
Cell was a long time project, not even ready in the near future. So I'd assume Dr. Gero would be fine with waiting a bit longer so Cell could achieve his perfect form. This was his programming and main function anyway. Maybe the same process would have taken way longer if not for 18 and 17 as part of his form. Gero is probably just as patient as his neffew Dr Hedo with Cell Max.
Haven't finished the video yet, but the Frankenstein's monster theme for androids continues with Dr. Hedo in the manga. His first androids look similar to Hacchan.
19 was the only one to obey him somewhat
Did you review the latest arc in the Dragonball Super manga with Granolah, Oatmeal, Manaito and the Heeters?
I think because they somewhat remembered they horrible past with him and they kind of take revenge on him
With Cell is well.... his own mixture of personalities are enough to overpower any program that makes him "bored" especially when he becomes complete, its pretty much a Frieza mixed with Vegeta and Piccolo but with a twist and Jurassic World comes in to mind.
Cell is "unatural" like the Indominus rex or usually an abomination , he lacks the ability to position himself in the order of the universe, so he believes his ultimate goal is to destroy all life , he isnt like Freiza a tyranic bussiness / spoiled emperor and taking over the world or just killing Goku is too small for him
Because Dr Gero literally kidnapped them and enhanced them with cybernetics and both 17 and 18 still having their human organs gives them the free will to think and do whatever they want.
I think Sel was Gero's dead man switch. I think they were never meant to meet. I think the computer was designed to start creating Sel AFTER the death of Gero/ if he didn't press x button everyday
Yooo Blackenfist where you been bro
I miss you blackenfist
Hey Mike, how would fans react if Beerus and Whis sacrifice themselves and take Super out of existence
Because Toriyama wanted to find a way to quickly remove Android 20 from the story and made his last minute villains into a credible threat.
Hey Mike Please Do What If Lord Frieza Won in Namik and Gained Immortality and Destroyed earth? Will the Gods Intervined?
not really but zeno would erase the universe
@@sridrawings4510why?
@@urenaanthony91 cuz low mortal also no dragon balls to wish them back if you count super as canon That is
‘Frankenstein Monster’ is actually called Igor
Also, don't forget that sgt metallic and terminator. Terminator and frankenstien are both science gone wrong stories. Also, now that I think about it. Cell gives me jurrassic park vibes as well. It might not be a movie reference but a reference to the book, since cell is a hybrid. Like how toriyama referenced sound of thunder, which ive never seen anyone talk about.
I talked more at length about that in this video here, including the Sound of Thunder reference: czcams.com/video/ckCEIpED5wQ/video.html
As great as the Future trunks/Cell arc was. The only thing they didn’t do was give a back story on where 17 & 18 came from. Cell gave us his origin and he even got a his own movie I believe. The Androids were apart of Future trunks movie not their own.
Toriyama had to give most of the development to cell, if 17 and 18 remained the main villains before toriyama's editor told him to make cell we would have gotten the back stories of 16,17 and 18 all in the story.
Gotta blame the editor for that one.
@@justinarzola4584 it would have gave the arc more depth. 16 gave them balance. Because just being rebellious youths that like to destroy things as a personality with no back story leaves more to be desired. Although 17 & 18 are fan favorites. They do have the most interesting personalities of all the villains in DBZ. That’s why ppl probably like Buu, Freiza or Cell over them because we got a back story to understand why they are the way they are.
Fisting? Not even once. - Gero
i've always wondered.. would main timeline cell have been good like android 17 and 18? goku would have not liked what trunks and krillin did, by killing cell while goku was sick
Holyyyyy hearing blackenfist say ‘ginzoningeng’ brought back those ARDBZ videos when they always talked about the androids but used that term in like a super exaggerated way, I still think ardbz is on par with dbza
Gotta have those 8 gym badges lol
For me # 13 is like 17/18.
And #14 and #15 are fully mechanical.
Because we saw that no fully mechanical being in DB can transform, #13 do, and he has an increase in muscle mass , height, teeth and even veins on his arms etc.
Androids in Dragon Ball loved 'playing games'. Obviously Cell created the Cell Games, the Androids 17 & 18 in the present hunted for Goku as a "game", the Future 17 & 18 killed people for "points", in GT Goku mocked Super 17 by saying, "What's the matter? You only want to play the game if you're winning?"
I didn't know Blackenfist was still around.
Uploaded on Fathers day! He should have done a better job raising those kids
Love me some blackenfist
Hey, I have got an idea for a video for you, It came up out of nowhere while I was watching this video. What if they never went to Geros Lab, and never destroyed cell that was still being created ? I also have 2 scenarios for that, first one being a what of cell won against Gohan, after a few years cell would be born.. what would happen ? And second, Gohan wins against cell like we see, but then, because they never destroyed Cell being created, he shows up again.
Tell me what you think!
13,14 and 15 are weak but aren't failures in theory
Future trunks going back in time reminds me of terminator.
The same reason why I didn’t listen to my parents when I was a teenager
No way Blackenfist!!!! He was my first DBZ CZcamsr then he ended up leaving.
Yea his will was to live shown when vegetas about to big bang attack him and he runs. If he thinks or knos he can win he'll fight tho
why did you change the thumbnails
If cell is programed to be perfect doesnt have a free will. HE must do it. if you make him choose is gone follow the program to became perfect.He can think he has a choice as form of a obession or dream,but in end isnt free will, he just thinks it is. Also when he achive it the goal he wanted to prove it to all and himself is right, is that a free will as well? or is he Still looking to prefect even more even he didnt say it?
Only semi-related, but Mike, have you ever seen "Raised by Wolves"? Unfortunately it's been cancelled after 2 seasons, but worth checkin' out.
Yes, I saw the first episode and wasn't a fan.
Cell was from the future. Gotta figure that in
I think the more pertinent question, is the one that Android 17 had in the series, but was never answered.
Androids 17 & 18 asked if Android 16 was based on a human being, but 16's reply was that he was built from scratch.
So Android 17 wondered since Dr. Gero is able to create an Android from nothing, why did he then switch back to using humans for his Android designs in the later models, aka himself and Android 18?
None of the kechanicals ever had the infinite energy engine, so maybe it required an organic host? Maybe it just functioned as robo-midichlorians that absorbed and then fed energy into living cells.
Speaking of Ridley Scott, Freiza's 3rd form is actually based on Alien's xenomorph.
I have a video idea. How would non cannon Goku's power compare to cannon Goku? Every non cannon movie is a zenkai cannon Goku doesnt get.
There must be some old movie that explains why they give their artificial intelligence the will to disobey.
I don't think I've seen a what if Dr.Gero lived and was not killed by the androids. I thought maybe you could do something with this I enjoy your content.
Gero messed up the code for order 66.
because they didn't want him to turn them off.. lol
when you brought up the computer following gero's rules but not really the way Gero planned it made me think... what if the computer was so advanced it somehow predicted the entire cell saga, including all the time lines and time travel shenanigans when creating cell, all with the purpose of killing goku.
After all, in the end cell DID kill goku, but in a really roundabout way in a different time line where goku never died of the heart virus.
I love the topics of artificial intelligence and the Androids of Dragon Ball franchise
HELLO THERE BEAUTIFUL FRIENDS
I want you to know when I saw who the guest was I yelled no fucking way XD. Truly an epic collab for the LMS channel
Fun fact android 21 from the dragon ball games is based on Dr. Gero wife.
part of their programming would require them to kill him because he would disturb them from killing goku even and if he went soft they wouldn't be able to kill goku and also they have to kill him because if he makes newer models then they can't complete their programming because goku would already be dead which would probably be annoying for them..
Blackenfist🔥