FRESH YEAST vs. YEAST CAKE in a Vienna Lager | exBEERiment
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- čas přidán 15. 05. 2024
- This episode is sponsored by Delta Brewing Systems, makers of some of the most affordable high quality stainless gear on the market. Check them out at deltabrewingsystems.com!
Imagine you brew a batch of Vienna lager and split it into two. One half goes into a keg with yeast left over from a previous batch. No yeast harvesting or cleaning, just dump it right in. The other half? It goes into a clean keg with a fresh packet of the same yeast. Can you actually tell the difference between these two beers after fermentation? We put this to the test with 20 participants. Are these beers perceptibly different? Let’s find out.
INGREDIENTS
Epiphany Craft Malt: www.epiphanymalt.com
Atlantic Brew Supply: www.atlanticbrewsupply.com
Yakima Valley Hops: yakimavalleyhops.com/
Imperial Yeast: imperialyeast.com/
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CONTACT: martin@brulosophy.com - Jak na to + styl
I have been pitching on the 34/70 yeast cake for years; I time my fermentations 2 weeks apart, keg and pour off about 2/3 of the yeast cake to prevent overpitching, dump the new batch on top, ferment at ROOM temperature and continue. I have done this up to 20 times in sequence without any off flavors or other nonsense. Great video, Martin, thanks and Cheers!
All without cleaning the keg in between batches?
Best episode of the show yet. Even the intro song was actually pretty funny! And Norm is a legend. Keep it up!!
the floatit dip tube from homebrewer lab will save you headaches like what you had while prepping that keg. In fact, homebrewer lab makes amazing products overall. Owner works out of his kitchen and is very hands on with support and communication. Cheers
I pressure ferment in kegs and usually plan to do 3 or 4 consecutive weeks of brewing, making progressively darker/stronger batches. I'll start with a new pack of yeast, they use the cake for the next few brews. I transfer out of the fermentor while the grain is mashing, then pour the new wort on top. I like saving a few bucks on yeast, but I LOVE not having to clean the kegs.
I've used yeast cakes many times in the past! Now that I use the Fermzilla All Rounders I do closed transfers off of the yeast cake and pour my next brew right on top. I've never done more than 3 but have been tempted to! I'm a huge fan of the method as it is super simple and saves tons of time and money!
When I brewed on a more consistent schedule, I would very often reuse yeast from batch to batch. However, I never just dumped the new batch into the previous, unwashed fermenter. After racking the brew off the yeast, I'd collect a mason jar full of the yeast cake (sanitized jar, of course). After washing and sanitizing the fermenter (a plastic bucket), I'd fill with the new wort and pitch the reserved yeast. Never once had any issues. I got up to 8 batches from one packet of yeast (Wyeast 1056) before I decided to get some fresh yeast. There was no reason for the change other than I felt like I was pressing my luck.
The "control test" was funny, slightly evil but funny. 😂😂
Just completed 3 generations/batches of Czech Lager (pale, amber, dark) using this method with my Anvil Bucket. Timing worked out perfectly where I closed transfer/kegged the previous batch during the 90 minute boil of the next beer, chilled to the low 60sF and fermentation was started before I finished cleaning up from the brew day. Can't say I detect flavor/aroma differences probably due to the different recipes, but definitely no adverse results or off flavors. Also, the song is perfectly goofy 🍻
I have a dedicated lager pressure fermenter. I have reused the yeast cake for several beers over 2 years. I think of it as one big starter instead of having to spend lots of money on multiple packs of lager yeast. It produces the best lagers I have ever made
I've done several sequential fermentations on the same yeast cake, essentially using the first batch as a 5 gallon starter for the following one. This has given me great success and I've never run into off flavors or other defects caused by the process. Running my first version of making the same beer in sequence now and it will be fun to see if my experience is similar to what was presented here.
I use a version of this method...I brew a batch using fresh yeast, ferment in my converted Sabco half barrel keg, and then keg to cronies. All transfers are done with CO2, so I never have to open the fermenter or a freshly sanitized cornie. The day after kegging, I brew another batch, usually a different recipe, and then transfer to the fermenter with the yeast cake. I find that second batch starts more rapidly, ferments more vigorously and finishes with a lower FG than the initial batch on fresh yeast. And both beers turn out great and taste wonderful. This cuts my yeast bill in half and is a great motivator to brew more often.
This is similar to my approach. I tend to ferment with clean yeasts, like us-05 or 34/70, and will often dump a batch right on top of the previous yeast cake. I'm not worried about opening my fermenter to get the wort in there, I like re-introducing some oxygen to the yeast anyway.
I've done it more similar to this. I'm curious if there's a distinguishable difference between 5 month old yeast and 1 month old yeast?
I've been doing the yeast keg for a few years now. Always 34/70 over my winter months. I love my results, plus it saves me time and money over using fresh yeast.
I'm on my 12th generation of yeast cake and haven't noticed any of flavours yet. I ferment under 0.5b pressure and at 10C for a week, then raise to 15c for a week. The wort usually starts heavy fermentation after a few hours only. I intend to just keep doing this method until I taste of flavours. I've a few bottles of each batch. Planning comparing them at some point. Thanks for the great content. Keep up the great work 👍
I might be giving this method a shot. I'm making a hefeweisen for my next batch. After that's gone, I was thinking I'd pour some apple juice in there and ferment it low to really push the clove character. I think that would work quite well in a cider
I attach a 1/2” stainless washer out of a weldless ballvalve to the ring of the floating dip tube. Eliminated all my issues.
My best brews have been pitched on top of yeast cakes. Im a big fan of this method
Agreed so have mine, breweries dont start with a fresh yeast every batch either. I bet your cakes not a 5 month old cake of autolysis though.
@@Charsty i agree too on a fresh cake it can turn out lovely! especially voss kviek or good old us05 as craigtube will tell you.
Also thanks martin for helping get the word out about this topic lazyness can help sometimes!
@Charsty I've used 3 month old yeast cake and it produced a great beer. It just took a little longer to get started
I’ve started reusing yeast and done a few brews with reused Kviek yeast. Saves a tonne of money and haven’t had an issue .
Looking forward to tasting your next experiment Martin!
I've utilized this approach numerous times to good effect. For practical reasons however, I generally prefer to just recycle the yeast slurry. Had a Kveik Voss run for nearly three years, fermenting countless batches in that time before I eventually started over with a fresh yeast. I can't say I was aware of any obvious changes with those countless reuses... impossible to say really.
I can't remember where I saw it (it was another brewtuber), but you can use a stir bar inside the hop screen to keep your dip tube submerged in beer.
Yes. I have seen this on a video by Gash
I'm always impressed that you can keep your face straight when saying how you "avoid messy blow-offs"... 😀
But seriously, I really enjoy the content you are producing. Very watchable indeedy.
What I notice is reduced lag time and faster fermentation with the reptiches of the Weinstephaner lager strain. I've taken this up to 3 generations I'm the fermzilla conical. The first 2 generations are great! The third generation tends to hang around and takes a good bit of rousing to get into the yeast vessel at the bottom of the fermenter. Time really doesn't appear to improve this as it is rousing. I'll be brewing and fermenting with McGuires Irish Pub house yeast (proprietary strain) under pressure to see how it performs in a pressurized environment. I do know this repitches very well. Thanks for all the work you've put into this series Martin!
"The Norm" returns ... two thumbs up.
I have done this a few times, but only used the yeast for one more batch. Mostly, I do it to build up a Yeast Starter for a bigger beer that I ferment in it next. But it has worked great every time I’ve done it, cheers.
Sneaky Girl! 😜
Love the video. 🍻
I do it all the time. Mostly it's building yeast for a 3gal Dubbel to a 6gal Quad. Currently doing something different. Brewed a Hazy with Vossa-Nova. Took some of that trub and made a 3/4gal mead. Very drinkable in 5days so doing it again but adding blueberries this time. I don't do side by side experiments like you but the beer comes out tasty.
Great video, 👍
I really liked this video because I learned something new. Thanks!
It's not quite the same, but I use a fresh yeast cake from a conical Fermenter. I do a trub dump day 3/4 of fermentation and then a yeast dump after emptying the Fermenter, before pitching the wort onto what's left. Works a treat.
I usually do "lighter" beers first, with the least hops/speciality grains. It's superb for high gravity beers.
For the floating dip tube there are lids with a liquid post. Easier to install and much easier to clean.
If you pitched the same amount of yeast cells, this experiment would be valid. I would've pitched 1/3 or 1/4 of the yeast cake. With 05-yeast, ive been doing this and reused more than 20 times. No issues, but I also keg, brew and pitch the very same day.
Thanks for a great show. I'm watching every video.
I have re-pitched on top of yeast cakes for years, typically I dump and start over after the third generation or so. Echo what others have said about the reduced lag time and ferments more vigorously and finishes with a lower FG with the re-ptiches . . . so there's some real pluses to doing this method, but you can very quickly overpitch. Then again, I'm usually making IPAs with lots of hop character, so the resulting beer is usually hard to distinguish if it had fresh or not. Fantastic video and always entertaining - thanks Martin!
My Vienna is very similar. Nearly all Vienna malt with a touch of midnight wheat for colour.
Thought I was the only one that did this !! For house beer it’s fine have done 5 generations but you need to start emptying yeast through the floating dip tube after batch 3.. you end up with like 3L of yeast !! Don’t do for comp beers though as flavours can become muddled and not to style
I’ve been doing this for a few years now, and it seems the beers improve over time in my experience
Great experiment. Always preferred fresh yeast after trying the other method a couple of times. Ended up having a huge yeast cake by the end of it.
I yeast train all the time. Makes great beer and saves on starters. Why make a starter and pour it down the drain when you can have another 5 gallons of beer instead?
My state's first craft brewery. Started off with ringwood yeast. Since then the original founders all split off and created their own breweries, using the same yeast. You can now brew the same beer at 5 different breweries and they all come out different as the yeast is no longer ringwood as about every 5th or so generation the yeast mutates and they've been separated so long they're like long lost relatives of each other.
For a recent brew, I tried pitching on a yeast cake for the first time. I did a Czech Premium Pale Lager with fresh Imperial Urkel. I kept the beer on the yeast cake until brew day thinking it would help keep the yeast fresh (probably didn't matter). However, I cold crashed to transfer the beer off, of course, but now the yeast cake is 36F. I cannot chill my wort much below 70F. That is an enormous temperature differential. So I transferred the beer early on brew day and then let the kegmenter with the yeast warm up during brew day. I got the yeast to around 60F and the wort to 68F when I transferred the wort to the kegmenter with yeast cake. Still not the greatest differential but at the edge of acceptable. I next chilled the wort in my fermentation chamber to get it from 68F down to 55F for fermentation, which it did just before the lag phase ended. This second beer was a Czech Amber Lager so that the yeast is still appropriate and has the same hops (Saaz) as the first recipe. At first, I thought the Amber had a ton of esters, and it might have, but as the Amber has been lagering, the esters are far less pronounced. So far, it is an enjoyable beer. I sent it to NHC, so we will see what the judges think of it. I plan to do one more beer with this yeast cake, naturally a Czech Dark lager.
I have done this twice. Both times were my favorite Kölsch recipe from David Heath. It worked both times. I did not go as far as scientifically testing both batches, but both times all was fine.
i have separate fermenters for IPAs & lagers, get over 20 beers from one packet
Great video!
I do very similar in my small scale system. I do however don't have a microscope to see if the yeast is healthy, but I do taste the yeast cake. My theory is if it tastes good then it will ferment good.
The other difference is I put my wort in the keg at 170˚F, and the next day I drop in the cake when the temps are ideal. Your show is one of the best on the tube!
Your floating dip tube tubing is too long, that’s why you couldn’t get the last of the beer out. Cut the tubing shorter so the filter only just reaches the bottom, but the tubing doesn’t, and you will get almost all of the beer out
A little dip in Starsan makes it very easy to slip the tubing over the shortened dip tube. I also like to slip two stainless washers over the tube to ensure that there’s some weight holding the tip underneath the liquid, otherwise you can suck air. Lastly, I usually purge the tube by blowing some CO2 through it before transferring… though maybe with the filter attachment that isn’t necessary.
The kegland floating diptube kits and filters are amazingly good.
Drop a spare magnetic stir bar in the filter cage and you'll never have it sucking foam before the keg empties!
Put some shoes on, man 😂
On the floating dip tubes. The reason the inlet points up is because the tube is sinking behind it.
The solution is to place a "life ring" on the tube a few inches before the ball. "life ring" could ideally be a second ball... or just a ring of closed cell foam
Fit a ball lock post onto the removable keg lid and fit the floating dip tube to that.
For second generation I’ll pour 10gal wort on 5gal batch yeast cake with a slightly higher EBC/SRM then again only using about 300ml for about 3-4 generations. Finishing it with a dry hopped beer, dumping it and starting again.
Awesome episode! Totally expected a non-significant result on this one. I've pitched direct to the yeast cake before with great results but never done a side by side with fresh. My standard practice is overbuilding starters and saving from that for future batches. I might decide to do a similar test with a 4th or 5th gen and a fresh pitch based on your results.
Love it!
I've never poured a fresh batch onto the yeast cake from a previous batch. I don't consider that best practice as there will be hop trubb and proteinous matter as well as yeast which may influence the flavour negatively. I have often washed harvested yeast from the bottom of a fermenter and reused it with excellent results. When I add it to a starter of boiled and cooled DME it takes off like a rocket. Very healthy and happy yeast!
I've been pitching on yeast cake for years with great results. Never went beyond three batches though. I'm planning on harvesting yeast cake and saving in frig as others claim great success with that, too.
The success of this method really depends upon how clean your wort is going to the fermenter. Many homebrewers do not take steps for really clear wort going to the fermenter. So a process change/improvement might be needed to get rid of the majority of trub/break material if you want success reusing yeast directly. Keeping the yeast in a CO2 (oxygen free) environment is the best way to store yeast. So the method is technically sound but dependent on the brewer's sanitation & wort separation skills.
I think a lot of people put a stainless nut on the hose near the filter to weigh it down a little.
FloT iT dip tubes are great.
Never had an issue since I started using them. Great product!!
Agree. I'm actually surprised that Brulosophy or Clawhammer haven't converted yet by now.
@@NeurosisNic the yeast market perhaps
Need to try this experiment again but with making a starter for both yeasts.
I think that with a proper starter, both will yield identical results.
Your wife is hilarious 😂
I do this all the time. Brew a “lager” with kveik then throw a west coast on it after
Drop a spare magnetic stir bar in the filter cage of the floating dip tube and you'll never have it sucking foam before the keg empties again and the stir bar is very easily kept sanitary
Flotit 2.0 dip tube is the way to go. Worth the little extra money.
Curious to know if you’re oxygenating your wort before putting it in the keg with the cake in it? Great videos!
I've dumped fresh wort over yeast cakes up to 6 times. I stopped at 6 because everyone said oh no don't do that. I'd be surprised to see how many times you can do this beforethe beer comes out "bad". Keep in mind under pressure is the key. Also fermentation starts very fast.
I've done this a few times now. The subsequent beers tasted just fine from my perspective. i only do this when the second beer is going to be darker/stronger than the first. An example would be first round light lager, second round amber or schwarzbier.
Hi Martin :D
I have 4 SS fermenters (3x50 mini uni and 1x58l kegmenter), and i regularly brew 42l in the 50l ones, and 50l in the 58l ones.
I brew 3 times, one with fresh (dry) yiest, and two times more where i just "dump" on top.
I _usually_ brew a new batch between 14 days and 2 months after the last one, with an average of about 5 weeks i guesstimate.
I could possibly brew a 4th or 5th batch, but the headspace will start to get VERY low at this point i think, so its 3 max for me.
Im not sure how much of a difference i can detect, and what i prefer the most, but i mostly think of it as a "huge starter", and it usually "take off like a rocket", and start to ferment within hours.
This are also a "light lager" style "drinking alot of" style beer. (Think Heineken, Carlsberg, Tuborg or similar).
18c for 5 days, and then a rampup to 25c for another 5 days, and then i turn of the heat, and then i just "lager" in the same tank. This is done in a norwegian cellar, so its basicly between 4 and 10c year round.
S-23 Yiest, and under about 15-20psi/1-1,5 bar of preassure.
Saves ALOT on yiest, and also ALOT less cleaning to do.
For the first batch i add:
10g of yiest per 10l of beer.
6g/10l of DAP
For all batches:
whirlflock at 15min
2 packets of dry bread yiest at 15min, as thats also an excilent yiest nutrient.
The first batch is ran over a kegland wort spreader (KL33640) to get a better airation.
It would be very interesting if you re-did the experiment, but with fresher yiest then 5months or whatever. Or even did a triple-split, with fresh, 2months and 5 or 6 months, and see how that went.
Cheers!
I've tried this and had decent successes if I pulled g half of the cake out so not over pitching. Doing this seems to lessen off flavours (and aroma) too for some reason.
I use 303 ss washers in the dip tube pick up screen section so that its still allowing it to float but sits under the water or beer an not pulling air.
I only use s-04 yeast, but I regularly do 5-6 batches on one set of yeast in a fermzilla. So long as the wort going in is clear (from recirculating the mash) and the final beer is completely clear, I haven't been able to notice any difference.
More content like this!
get two or 3 SS like M10 nuts, and put them in the filter-thingy, that makes it go abit further down into the trub
I bought some stainless BBs to weigh down the filter and keep it in the beer.
The Krausen line would be super thick after 10 brews in the keg without washing.
Reusing a yeast cake is a great method - but I think best practice is to get more wort on the cake shortly after previous fermentation ends - how long? Well who knows but I feel pretty confident re using within a month or two if it was store cold and sealed.
I’ve won gold Multiple beers using this method - kolsch and helles.
That song, as the young kids say (I think) slaps!
Float it 2.0 hooks up outside the keg, more expensive but worth it in my opinion.
I have thought of doing something similar...but just brewing a batch 2 weeks after a previous batch and just putting the wort on top of the old yeast...so transferring to a keg and immediately putting new wort on it
omg THE THEME SONG
Interesting experiment. There's obviouly a massive over pitch in the yeast cake beer. You might find that the results would be much closer if you pitched at a similar rate in each beer. Rinsing the yeast prior to use would be ideal but even lazy brewers would get decent results by simply discarding a portion of the yeast cake prior to pitching
I have done this with beer and mead. I seemed fine with the beer. The mead final gravity ended up being 1.030 so it was more sweet than I’d like, even though I had some peppers in the second batch. 🤷♂️ More experiments are being done.
I wonder how results would differ based on yeast strain/beer style.
Hi! What is the bbq tap/dispenser you use with the keg?
I only add my floating dip tube to a keg lid with a post. Such a pain to add the floating dip tube to a post on the actual keg.
Super
Does they use the fermenter keg as a server keg too? I mean without transfering the beer to a clean one
Can't help but wonder about the impact of any remaining CTZ characteristics in the yeast cake version. Perhaps a variant on this experiment using a yeast from a beer hopped with Magnum and Tettnang, like a German pilsner or helles, would lessen the impact of that variable?
You need to the perfume counter trick and smell coffee beans
I've done three lagers on the same yeast cake. I thought they were good but timing brews can get difficult
Hello brewology what is you made a malt mix,, mixed half with ale yeast and the other one with lager yeast what would be the difference in taste...🍺🍺🍺🍺🍺
Love the new theme song LMAO!!!! Awesome!
FlotIt 2.0❤ diptubes are superior ✌🤘
I'm wondering if there would be a big enough difference with taste with comparing pilsner malt vs 2 row, a friend once told me there's the same 🤔 so maybe you could make two batches and see if there's a big enough difference or not
As a homebrewer who uses dry yeast exclusively, why do others use liquid yeast? Is there any perceptible benefit?
How different is this practice from using a foeder? Seems to me the real difference might be that perhaps more yeast is suspended in the foeder wort than just a yeast cake - but there's definitely a yeast cake that will build up in a foeder.
it's ok on a homebrew level......but no sane brewer will put wort on top of a yeast cake on a commercial scale, the risk is too high.........but great video........in essence it's about pure yeast culture and the beer u can get with it......cheers.......another great video
Ask Dino at White Street how many times he uses the yeast. He has a set amount of pitches, but I've forgotten the number. Also, I wonder if it's not the yeast cake, but the age of the cake. You said that the cake was 3 months old. What about a fresh one? 2 weeks old?
I only reuse the same yeast for 3 batches and always increasing the alcohol content of the beers. E.g.: bitter ale; cream ale; american IPA
they never do isolated blind tests? lots of chances to influence the tests
Using an entire yeast cake is something you can get away with for one, maybe two batches, but there will eventually be autolysis. You'd be pitching an amount of cells well above max cell density. Too many cells for the food available = a lot of dead cells. And the surviving cells will get tired because they did not have the opportunity to divide. Cell division is important for optimum fermentation performance. This is why recommended pitching rates are far lower than max cell density.
Should’ve shaken the keg before you started the video to clean all the crud that’s been sitting inside of it
thought off the bat that this would be a pretty obvious test, definitely should have closer results if your "used" yeast is fresher, cone to cone style rather than sitting at serving pressure for months autolyzing itself and stacking genetic drift toward survival in that environment