Mashing for LESS THAN 60 Minutes w/ John Palmer | BRÜniversity
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- čas přidán 22. 06. 2024
- This episode is sponsored by Atlantic Brew Supply, the largest homebrew shop in the southeast who offer shipping around the US. Grab your ingredients and gear at atlanticbrewsupply.com!
Most beer recipes call for a 60 minute mash rest. But why? And what happens if you mash for less or more time? To find out, we chat with the author of "How To Brew," John Palmer, and go over the results of three exBEERiments that compared 20 minute, 2 hour, and overnight mashes to the standard 60 minute rest.
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Brülosophy has basically taught us all that you can pretty much do whatever you want with homebrew and it makes very little difference so long as you clean and sanitize everything.
I still do 60 minute mashes, typically. I could go shorter or longer but 60 minutes tends to align well with the rhythm of my brew day. I use mash and boil times to prep for next steps, such as measuring out hops and cleaning and sanitizing equipment etc.
It's worth mentioning, that each type of grain has its own 'Gelatinization' temperature, this is the ideal temp for full conversion, typically Malted Barely is between 64>67C (147-153F) while others such ad Rye are lower at 49-61C (120-142F), so the type of grain used in your bill, should impact both the temp used, as well as the duration. A good check to do: an alternative from a gravity test is an 'Iodine test'. Starch is made up of amylose & amylopectin. It's the amylose that interacts with Iodine giving a 'purple' colour, once the test displays 'reddish-brown > orange' this will display full starch conversion. Need to consider everything that happens when we mash > gelatinzation, liquefaction and saccharification.. all are factors! But as always great video 😊
I have been using overnight mash for quite a while, and often. The only downside is that sometimes it has higher attenuation than what I wanted, making my beers dryer
Do you mash out? I think it could help.
Same. I usually end around 1.004 for standard strength beer after my overnight mash.
Interesting. This could be a good process choice for a very Dry Saison
yes, very much so! If you want really dry beers it's great
Dang, i need to try this. I've always had under attenuated across the board. I do a short mash 20min plus mash out. 160-170deg. As quick as possible. I need to give this a try. Or just extend the mash in general.
Nice! I've been doing 50 min mash and 50 min boil ever since I learned about you short and shoddy method. One of those brews got a gold medal award on a Homebrewing Competition late in 2023.
Can confirm Palmer's comments on majority of mash happening in first 15m in my own experiments some years ago. It led me to grind finer to expose more of grains to the water. I now get full-conversion to my target pre-boil OG within 15-20m depending on the grain bill. I typically clarify my beers by cold-crashing and adding gelatin to help any cloudiness settle out. Of course, yeast strain and hop bill play a part here, but in general I get quite clear beers that hit their predicted numbers and taste great.
Great work guys. Thanks You.
Great vid! love it! Thanks for the info!
I rarely time my mash but always am at minimum 60 min, as John brought up the distraction of young kids. Heck even if I took a day off with no distractions, I would still mash for over 60 min, get a workout in, get some stuff done around the house etc. and get to the boil when I was able. But yes, with kids, it makes things difficult to not break up a 4+ hour brew day. I've mashed in over nap times and then boil after bed time the same day, that's my go to weekend brew day.
Running a brewery for 5 years, I usually mash for 45 min, start vorlauf, and after 15 minutes of that recirculation, and have clear enough wort, I start transfer to the kettle.
This video make me wonder about the overnight mash rest and letting it cool. I'll be starting to set up and run a new brewery here, starting next month. It will be focused on brewing the highest quality beers I can, for our large tap room only.
I might incorporate this. This could help with scheduling too. I could see it working well for a Saison and some other styles too.
Thanks so much for this! Great videos!
I usually mash for 60 to 90 minutes every brew day, especially with the Brewzilla managing my mash steps, it is very hands off. Where I shorten things is on the boil, I only do 30 minute builds.
Very interesting. Thanks!!
I got my best efficiency by accident. I use a rectangular cooler with a steel-braid strainer. After I started stirring my mash, I realized I forgot to put the strainer in. Rather than ruining my temperature, I let the hot mash sit for 2 hours, then bailed the mash out of the cooler into buckets, then ran a little water through the spigot backwards. Put the strainer back in, put the grains back in being sure to rinse the buckets and the bailing pan with sparge water.
I collected and boiled down to the target volume, and my gravity ended up way above the target. My guess is that the extra handling of the grains squeezed more of the sugar water out of them. A long soak plus an aggressive sparge.
Fun video. Thanks.
I use the mash and boil times to prep and sanitize equipment. Where I want to find time and effort saving options is cleaning and sanitizing gear.
Depends on Malt.
Standard Continental European Malts I use mostly the "Double Infusion mash" - Mash in relativly thick for 57/58°C, let rest around 30min(depends on malt), then add a specific amount of boiling water to rise up the mash temperatur to 65/66°C, rest until iodine test is ok.
For British Malts, straight single infusion at 65/66°C even rest until iodine test is ok or a bit longer for higher attenuation levels, especially when the yeast is a low attenuator. Hoch-Kurz-Mash is also possible tio have more control over sugar ratios for british malts due to protein rests are totally unwanted with it, and Hoch-Kurz skip them.
For some high protein heritage malts, chit malt as base malt or some times 100% base malt recipes, I do decoction. There are the Vienna style double decoction mash, munich style double decoction mash or the extra complex bohemian tripple decoction mash. Single decoction mashes are also possible, like a decoction version of the hoch-kurz-mash for malts where protein rests could skipped.
pH is also interresting:
For continental/higher protein malts I strike a mash pH at room temperatur of 5.55(at saccharfication temperature its 5.2) to improve some protein degradation and a bit the attenuation level.
For British malts any extra protein degradation except them being saccharafication does, is unwanted. Therefore I go higher to avoid them with 5.75 at room temperature(at saccharfication temperature its 5.4).
Interesting methods. Thanks for sharing.
Heck yes! Overnight mash is my preferred method. Glad to see how it performed in the experiment of 60 min vs 15 hours. Going to keep doing that from the time being !
Thanks guys for the comments and this episode. Very very helpful. I've needed to do this for years. having under attenuated beers and not necessarily wanting to extend the brew day. I think I have to. A 3-4 hour brew is how long it takes. But i don't have a brew in a bag. Maybe that's the next step to keep the day similar in length but have a longer mash.
I do 3 hours at 62C and add in 10% of the grain at 1hr and again at 2 hrs to stimulate enzyme activity. This gives me a nice dry beer. Final gravity is under 1.000 even without adding 'dry enzyme'.
Interesting.
I always mash for 1 hour just because I’ve been told to. I now do a 40 minute boil and no change has been noted ( by me ) from repeated recipes I’ve boiled for 1 hour. Another very interesting vid cheers 👍🍻
Just got that book today!
I still like to check for starch with iodine. That's my go to. Could be 45min or 90
I think that's one of the best videos you've done Martin, thanks. Mind you, when you get John Palmer on for some opinions, it's probably going to be worth the time to sit and listen.
Gotta say, I'll stick with 60 minutes mash, unless it's a decoction or something unusual, then unfortunately, the mash tends to get longer rather than shorter.
I have moved to mashing based upon gravity rather than time. Stay in your beta rest until you reach a gravity target (based upon fermentability desired) like 90% or 95% of pre-boil gravity before moving on to alpha and mashout. Let this be your lever for fermentability. 60min is arbitrary when you look at it from this perspective. The overnight mash example shows that beta enzyme activity continues well beyond the homebrew myth time of 30min and its over. For example, if one is brewing a Belgian blonde, you might want to stay in beta for 60-70 minutes. This ensures most of your gravity is highly fermentable and the beer will have a better chance of reaching a low final gravity. For a different style the time in beta might be shorter like for an English ale etc... If one is doing a single infusion, then the same applies but the times might be longer and your gravity target would be 100% before going to mashout/boil.
I have 2 systems. I do overnight mash on both, then in the morning jump into the boil on them. Second batch of the day on each system is 60 minutes. 4-6 fermenters full before lunch :)
Im going to start looking into "overnight mashing" ... will save me some time the next day 👍
Enjoyed the video as always. It got me to thinking tho (not even related to mash length). When doing individual triangle tests, if the person can’t tell a difference, why not have that as an option, rather than just guessing?
I usually run a 90 minute mash including mash in(low), mash rest(mid) and mash out(high). I find I get around 4 gravity points extra over a single mash and mash out at 60 minutes.
As always, interesting stuff. In my view there are 3 variables not mentioned in this video that could be linked with mash time :1. mash thickness 2.pH 3.volume Vs heating power. In these test water/grain ratio was not mentioned but a very thick mash could be a good reason to extend mash time. I had only one Kate conversion in my brewing experience and was for a mash that I did with lot of acid malt ( the idea was to have a kind of berliber Weiss using lot of acid malt) and it took me like 3 hours for a positive iodine test. 3. If you have like 50l mash heated by propane burner you will not notice differences as heating time are so long that anyway even with shorter rest you will convert in the transition times anyway
The problem with long Mashing is a high b glucan and polyphenol content in the wort wich leads to a sometimes hanging bitterness which feels not to nice while drinking it would seem like a bad hop bitterness. In addition on short mashing and not doing a flameout at 72-78 °C is that if there are residual starches your beer has a high risk of going bad really fast.
That’s how we do it in Germany
Standard mash is mostly the way to go. However, overnight mash has the advantage of splitting the brew into two days - which may be useful for some people. I personally use overnight mash only for a certain recipe - a Vienna Lager.
Although I prefer the overnight mash, I do go 60+ minutes. Even if I try for 30 mins, by the time I do my prep work, cleaning, setup, measure hops- it’s closer to 60 mins. I have always got higher gravity with overnight.
60 minutes. No need to shorten my brew day and the time is used in other ways. I like seeing the other options won't affect the final beer though.
I am usually between 60 and 120. My pro tip is to mash in and then go to the gym and mash out when i get back home! I did 1 overnight mash in the home depot cooler and did not lose as much temp as shown in the example, still worked just fine. I think it goes to show that there is not just 1 way to make a good beer.
Edit: i posted my below comment before watching. Looks like my findings are confirmed. Got a bit longer on the mash to be safe. Clear beer is more sexy. And a few more points of efficeny, alcohol, and more dry. Maybe not noticeable but in my pea brain, maybe.
--
I finally checked with iodine after not for the past 5 years. I've been under converting, potentially. Efficiency was usually around 70%. It took around 25-30 min for it to clear or rather show brown, not blue purple. 155 single infusion. YMMV This was golden promise if that matters too. Maybe it does and i should check every time.
Some of my beer have been forever 2 months cloudy, lightly. Maybe this is why. I would usually did a 20 min mash and mash out to 160 or so.
Cheers
I typically use a 60 minute mash, I have done a 30 minute once on a day I was doing a double brew day and it came out fine although my OG was a little lower than expected. I have used overnight mashes several times and they always work out great I do end up getting much higher attenuation with overnight mashes. I did an over night mash and then a short and shoddy brew to do two brews in a day and i still ended up finishing my brew day at the time i normally would have with a standard brew day.
Many Pro brewers will start the MashOut after 30 minutes as the conversion continues for a bit of that time.
I use to do shorter mash times around 30-45 minutes, but now that I have a pump and can recirculate during mash I find myself doing 45-60 minute mash times. Im not seeing a significantly higher efficiency's with the longer rests so I might go back to 30-45 minute mash times. If I need to shorten my brew day I have found that I can turn up the boil and shorten boil times with not much change in flavor or quality of my beer. Sometimes it gets a little darker.
Just like in your compound bad beer experiment, it is the amalgamation of multitude of factors that make a difference in the final taste. Perfect analogy is watching documentaries on human made disasters - it is the compilation and sequence of bad decisions and negligence that lead to the failure.
30 minutes is becoming the standard at the commercial level. Unless I'm doing multiple turns, I still do 60 though. Mostly because I use that time to get other stuff done. I've got a brewery to maintain, still.
An idea for a future exbeeriment - same beer, one with a yeast starter and one with no yeast starter (under-pitched). It has most likely already been done but it would good to see a fresh take. Cheers !
Part of the fun is hanging out in the garage and drinking my last batch while making the new, so I stick to 60 minute mash 60 minute boil. Shorter brew day, less fun.
I usually do a 60 minute mash but if I'm trying to squeeze something out in a hurry I don't mind going down to 30. I've been into step mashing lagers recently which takes significantly longer, but has resulted in a crisp, clean, dry, clear beer in the glass.
I would suggest to make a video using different boil time
For the overnight mash, did you bring it up to temperature and then let it cool down right away, or did you hold it at that temperature for some time?
Still do 60. Nowadays if im doing a traditionally decocted beer (pils or hef) or a malty beer, i pull 20% of mash water 20 min into mash and press boil it for 30 min then return to mash for a quicker mashout bump and a maillard bump.
I always do a 60min mash at 151f and fly sparge at 175f to my desired volume and a 60min boil. I've tried changing it up but I've got my brew day dialed in at 60 and 60.
I use a less modified base malt and decoct nearly all of my beers so I'm typically mashing for a few hours. I like the results but there are obviously more factors than just a longer mash at work.
I really like overnight mash and set an early alarm to lift my grains and sparge. All done with brew day before lunch.
I start my timer for the boil when temp gets to around 200 F so my actual at boil time is probably 45 minutes.
Great video! But how does the impact of diastatic power play into this? I see that beers I brew with lower diastatic power take longer to reach peak mash conversion that those with high diastatic power.
You need to do different boil times, including no boils.. I know many brewers who don't even boil anymore especially when doing NEIPAs when most if not all of the hops are whirlpool.
In my experience the important thing is doing the mash out otherwise I end up with a dryer than wanted result. And I personally like beers with a bit of body, generally I don't want to go lower than 1010.
Overnight mash with my temp controller set!
i love overnight mash ,,(with an electric programable of course so stable 65-66 c),,put in on before bed and /or movie etc..then go to sleep,,wake up and finish it..
Will this channel be doing any beginner videos or is it aimed at intermediate or advanced brewers? I like the presentation style but looking at past videos this channel seems to cater for seasoned brewers. Thanks
These studies did not count for diastatic power of the malt. If you get something with a lot of flaked oat/wheet, you are very likely going to need some extra time. I know this from personal experience, but have never done a side by side test.
Get grains and water ready at night. Mash in before work in the morning. Mash out and sparge after work. Boil after supper. Clean up after the kiddo is in bed. Suffer a bit at work the next morning from getting up early and staying up late the day before.
I often do 30 min mashed and allow the beer to cool overnight before pitching.
I have noticed clouder beer, but I will try but have not yet tried gelatin to clear it. The efficiency loss documented in the video is negligible and well within tolerances.
Based on this experiment, I may opt to just mash, let sit over night and then finish up the next day, but this doesn’t seem like a time saver. Another option would to be brew as normal (30 and overnight cool) and add the hops in for the overnight cool.
I’d be very curious if brulosoph tried the no chill method, as that dramatically cuts done on water usage and allows the brew day to be easily cut in half.
I still mash for 60 mins but I would have no issue mashing for 20-30 mins if I needed to speed up the brew day. I'd probably add 10% to the grain bill if I was planning a shorter mash, though.
60 mins boils, however, are long gone.
When I discovered on my own that most conversion takes place in the first 15m, I started to grind finer and never looked back. I read in books on malting and brewing that early brew-houses knew the key was to get more of the germ exposed to water for better efficiency, but they couldn't resolve the stuck sparge problem that comes with. BIAB at homebrew scale solves that issue PDQ.
Duration is interesting, but what about temp change? Alpha and beta conversions? No comments other than John Palmer 🤔
We have people in our club that do overnight mashes.
I will go as low as 45 minutes for some simple grain bills, up to 75 minutes with a lot of adjuncts.
If you take a sample full of starch and no "real sugar" do you read a "gravity" too ? I always thought the gravity reading didn't indicate the state of the conversion, only iodine test could do it.
Many german industrial breweries does in fact mash 3-5 hours, stepmashing from 40c and up :-) I allways mash for 2 hours, and when mashing under this my efficency is much poorer.
do you guys ever try more complicated step mashes? seems like the vast majority of recipes these days recomend single infusion with maybe a mashout step, but I was wondering if the other lower temperature mash steps might still be useful for someone who has the time
45 min mash and then mashout til 168 and sparge. works great.
My question here is what temperature were all these mashes? And if they were done at different temps, how does that effect it?
I wonder if heating briefly to 65ºC to gelatinise the malted barley starch, then cooling to allow the enzymes to work for longer, would be a good way of releasing as many sugars as possible? It would be a slightly more controlled version of your 15 hour mash. Does anyone know how long the starch has to be kept at 65ºC to fully gelatinise it?
I do 120 minutes +52C, +65C, +70C. Mash in/ Mash/ Mash Out.
I usually plan for a 60 minute mash. But If I finish whatever else I wanted to do in that time and I get bored then I'll call it done at 45 or so
I typically go for 60 minutes unless I'm doing something fancy with lots of steps.
I found myself landing on 45 minutes. Not a huge time savings but now I can sleep in an extra 15 minutes 😅. See you tonight!
depending on what I make, I range from 45-70 min mash times
I’ll always be a 60 min mash guy if only for a clearer beer. Haze in my lagers and IPA just drives me crazy so I want that starch gone.
I'd be more interested in shorter boil time than shorter mash time. 🍻
It’s amazing that you just posted this recently. I am in the middle of a brew day and was wondering what effect putting grains in immediately and letting them rise to a mash temp would have.
I only have one brew kettle so it isn’t a test I really want to take on myself, but if you’re ever looking for content I’d be an n of 1 that would like to see the results.
I’m a 60 minute mash kind of brewer. Why fix what isn’t broken?
It depends on the recipe, however overnight I don't do because of the nasty smell, look at your sons facial expression, it says everything !
1:15
Graet work 👍
60 minute mash. Always have. See no reason to change.
Haha. I’ve just been watching items regarding AI. For around twenty minutes. I thought. I know this guy. But where from. Then it hit me. Home brewing.
Okay, native speakers... "i'm not brewing as often as many people do" - is it the common way since now? I mean i'd probably start it with "i don't brew as often". Or maybe not :)
Who would mash in and then go to bed??
Standard 60 minute mash.
I like 30 minutes. But what about those very technical recipes will a step mash. Are those even worth dealing with? Also, If you knew over 60 was pretty much useless you should have done 20, 30, 45, 60 minutes tests.
I always go 69 minutes
Hello, I think your final conclusion is not coherent with the experiments you conducted (nor the testimonies of Palmer), because the arguments / experiments are made between the mashing efficiency of 1 hour and 2 hour mash, or 1 hour and 15 hour mash.
From your experiments the results show that mashing for More than 60 minutes is unnecessary. because there is very little gain in extract when mashing for 1 hour, 2 hours, or 15 hours, which is logical and in line with what Palmer said on minute 3:16 that 98% of starch will be converted in 60 minutes...
What still needs to be investigated is the difference in efficiency between a 15 minute mash or a 30 minute mash for instance compared to a 1 hour mash.
This is why I'm saying that the final claim that "mashing can be done is less than 60 minutes" still needs to be tested/proven.
By the way, extending the mashing time risk ending up with a very thin beer that lacks body because you will obtain a wort with the wrong sugars profile that has high fermentability, and will be over-attenuated during fermentation, and gives a very dry and thin beer, which could be a deffect (depending on the style characteristics of course) . so in a Berlinerweiss this could be helpful, but in stouts, porters, most IPAs, and most strong Ales it will skew it out of style characteristics.
From another perspective, think about all the money the brewing industry can save by adopting shorter mashing regiments (time and heating costs). There is a reason why they don't do it !
For the homebrewer, mashing (or boiling) for less or more time not only increase the cost (which could be trivial on homebrewing scale). it will also produce a different beer that could have deffects.
Thanks