T-Mac and Iverson Together: 1997 NBA Redraft | Bill Simmons’s Book of Basketball 2.0 | The Ringer
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- čas přidán 8. 07. 2024
- In the second episode of The Ringer’s NBA Redraftables, Bill Simmons and Joe House redraft the 1997 NBA draft. Spoilers, but Tim Duncan was and is the top overall pick. After that, there was still a lot of talent in the top five. Players like Tracy McGrady, Chauncey Billups, and Stephen Jackson may or may not have been selected to new teams. Outside of the top five, things get a bit dicier, and Bill and House have to dive deep into NBA history to round out the lottery selections.
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I got more Keith Van Horn content than I bargained for.
I got more Rick Pitino content than I bargained for.
I got more clippers seasons tickets content than i bargained for
Growing up a sixer fan, van horn and harpring were the most frustrating players to watch lol
Is that the basketball equivalent of getting Rickrolled?
No such thing as too much Keith van horn
After a few redrafts, Jerry West's decisision to make a move for Kobe just takes player evaluation to a whole other level.
It's not really an impressive move when the player refuses to play for any other team
Jesse Paiz He refused to play for the Nets not every team. He was supposed to go 8th in the draft
@@stevesteve0521 Kobe didn't have much intent to play for Charlotte, the team that drafted him. Credit to West for recognizing game, but Charlotte was just screwed in that situation.
Charlotte drafted him to make the trade for divac. They had no intention of drafting or keeping kobe it was jerry west who got in contact with Charlotte because he knew kobe would end of 8th in the draft because they were looking for a shooting guard (that’s why they ended up drafting Kerry kittles) later in the draft because most teams weren’t looking for a shooting guard especially when straight out of high school. It was jerry west who was the mastermind to it all
@@stevesteve0521 I remember having some disdain for the rookie Kobe because it was well publicized in 1996 that his camp was telling teams he wouldn't play for them. A lot of these original articles are archived and behind pay walls, but you can read some content here and there from 1996.
“We got an ultimatum from Kobe, too,” Sacramento Kings player personnel director Jerry Reynolds said. “Not just Charlotte. We were at No. 14, and we were strongly considering taking Kobe, but he was gone.”
Reynolds also says Kobe refused to work out for them before the draft and told them not to draft him.
Bryant’s agent Arn Tellem somewhat says concedes that they manipulated the situation.
“I think what people should understand and respect is that this is a business,” he said. “Most players, when they’re drafted, rarely have the opportunity to have their dreams fulfilled. But we were in a position to do it, so we went for it, and we achieved it. You can’t begrudge anyone for trying to get their career objectives accomplished. Everyone else in this country does that every day of the week.”
Kobe's team had a huge hand in this. West and Kobe made it happen.
House mentioning Danny Fortson averaged 16 rebounds per game in a season, didn’t mention he only played 6 games that year 😂
Right. Bill also said Fortson made the playoffs once, but he made it twice in 2004 with the Mavs and 2005 with the Sonics.
Yea but he averaged 11 a couple other times in full seasons
@@Doknot-tb9ey he didn't play in that 04 series with the Mavs
@@Doknot-tb9ey shows how much Bill dislikes Ron Mercer more than anything. Also, Danny Fortson strikes me as a player who should leave his childhood circle of friends behind.
they said he made the playoffs once?..he was on the 04 mavs and 05 sonics..so they are wrong
The silver lining of the NBA season being suspended is Bill being able to drop some knowledge on us all and not being a 24/7 Celtics homer on his pods
Bill Simmons dont know shit
@@marcosrodriguez830 LMFAOOOO
Annoyed that when they should've been discussing Chauncey he mostly whined about Pitino tho.
@@Jay_Berries13 right.... dude barely mentioned tmac and spent hours on the Celtics fucking up. to be fair tho, this was the celtics draft they tanked hard for
@@Chronz lol he's talked about this many times on other podcasts. I think this 1997 redraft gave him an excuse to talk about it again. He's always an unabashed Celtics homer but he's has only talked a lot about the Celtics on these pods when it's a consequential year for them. He's been pretty neutral so far.
Imagine making it to the NBA from community college.
Your comment sent me down a rabbit hole. Some interesting stories of "community college to the league." But they're never as fascinating or novel as them seem on the surface, and the spectacle tapers off with the proper context. Shawn Kemp for example was drafted out of a CC but was actually a blue-chip prospect out of high school with a commitment to Kentucky but just couldn't pass his SAT. Ben Wallace and Devean George played in Division II and III schools but blew people away with their athleticism. Traditional, solid dudes don't get picked out of anywhere but the premier schools. It takes intangibles to get the attention of a front office.
There was a time in my life when Stephen Jackson was my favorite basketball player and Steven Jackson was my favorite football player at the same time (most underrated RB of all time)
Modern sports is severely lacking in Stephen Jackson’s compared to the mid 2000s. When will a commissioner of any league get on this?
I'm no draft guru guy but I remember watching Steven Jackson slide down the NFL draft and I just couldn't believe it. That guy was so good
Dude was the best player to never be an all star
It's crazy to think that Billups was shafted as hard as any player in NBA history with the situations that he was put in and still developed into the player he did.
Oh, and how shafted as hard he was!
@@fickdich973Kobe!
It took a little bit but you're right I remember when I saw him on the Pistons
Lol Bill still hates Patino for ruining the Celtics.
Keywan Bernard How could Pitino ruin a bad team??
Christian Soldier We could of drafted tmac originally but he drafted billiips (who got traded in his rookie szn) and a bust
Bad Billups trade.
alot of celtic fans feel this way too lol
who wouldn't.
Also never forget when Tim Thomas was talking shit to Dirk in Game 5 of the 06 Conference Semis and Dirk promptly gave him 50
Stories of the greats going into "I'm better than all of you" mode will never get old lol thank you for this one
@@ronaldclark3128 yea exactly. To heck with that humble attitude
When Stack hear this you going be in trouble...
Am I the only one who is overwhelmed by the amount of content all my favorite CZcamsrs are droppin?
Shoots 38% from 3 - this guy was clearly 400 years ahead of his time.
It's kind of a myth that Van Horn was a bust. He just wasn't Duncan. I mean, yeah, you'd pick TMac and Chauncey ahead of him, but Van Horn had some pretty decent seasons and was a productive player his whole career and sort of was a progenitor of the stretch 4 developing a decent 3pt shot as they transitioned him to a 3. It's just that he was bad at defense and wasn't efficient enough in the paint for a 4. He was the typical 6'7" player who grew 3 inches too big.
He played in the wrong era too. He’d be like sabonis now.
Keith Van Horn had talent he was soft you can't teach heart.
i take jackson over him..van horn could shoot thats about it..jackson could playmake defend rebound penitrate and shoot
Nobody says he’s a bust
Man, i sure had high hopes for Ron Mercer. He looked so smooth at Kentucky!
I watched Anthony Parker play A LOT and I feel he deserves a little more respect. He played himself out of the league, went overseas and became an MVP. Raptors signed him after destroying the Euro League and became a crucial part of the Raptors when they were trying to build an identity. He played lock down D, could shoot the three and was a decent scorer. Show a little love for a guy who really worked on his game for years and had a second NBA life. At pick 15, I'd love to have a guy like that. Interesting Note: The year he came to Toronto they won the division, the starting 5 was Parker, Bosh, Nesterovic, Garbajosa and TJ Ford. To win a division with that lineup deserves a little love
Loving these redrafts! Interesting & informative. Keep it up guys
Can't wait for Bill to pick Pierce over Dirk & Vince in 98
Pierce should be picked over Vince but definitely not Dirk
Pierce > Vince by far
@@finlayson6868 You not wrong at all. Things could have played out alot different for sure under the right circumstances. Vince had a couple good chances in NJ, those were some good years considering I was a Pistons fan born & living in Jersey so I could enjoy that rivalry to the fullest. Vince has always been great, shoot I was 7 his rookie year. He been in the league my whole life lol damn
When Bill used to write about House in his Page 2 columns, I used to think, "No way is this dude a 'yes' man to this magnitude." Video versions of House have since proved me wrong.
I would have taken Stephen Jackson at 4, i understand that he has issues with his background and what he lived as a young adult but he was a better contributor where he played than ketih van horn.
You can see that he did not played in the NBA until 2001 because of his issues, but if he had the same opportunity that Keith had when he got to the league he would have been a better player and would have better numbers overall
He made really good contributions with the Spurs, Pacers, Warriors and even got the Bobcats to the playoffs one year
Where was he actually picked though? Couldn't you've got him way down the line instead of wasting number 4 on him?
I looked it up. He was taking 42nd. You literally could have picked him in a second round and had both
James Miller why it would be a wasted pick?
Give me another name that had a better career than him from that draft except from Tim Duncan, tracy mcgrady or Chauncey billups?
He was the 42 pick and was waived by the team.
@@haroldrodriguez9961 I'm saying that because he was chosen 42nd that you could have chosen somebody at number 4 and still chosen Stephen Jackson when you hit the clock again before he was actually selected.
I suppose if we're doing a full re draft he would probably be chosen earlier. So if we are playing by those rules I suppose you are right because he's definitely not going to stay on the board until the second round again knowing what we know now.
Not arguing against Jack 5. I ride with him all day. If not for the brawl , my Pacers would have won a title with him, Ron Artest, and J O in 2005.
James Miller yeah the pacers could have won a championship back when the brawl happened but we will never know. This is a re draft of 1997 so i think those are the rules
TMac is still my favorite player ever.
Top 5 most frustrating
Stromile Swift
Anthony Randolph
Andrew Bynum
Darius Miles
J.R. Rider
6th man
Jimmer Fredette
I feel you. For the most part, great list. Gotta say, Bynum was a substantial contributor to 2 championships with the Lakers. Only champ on the list I think
Anthony Randolph always looked like a kid about to cry.
@@valthomas9786 I agree. But he flamed the fuck out as fast as he came on and he literally had ZERO other centers to worry about during what wouls have been his prime other than Howard. Im not saying he was a bust just that he fruatrated the fuck outta me.
@@S.C.-wo8hq He was always about to cry because the wind was always trying to push him down.
Darko
These are so excellent, such a great idea
Loved that '05 Sonics team! The finesse of Allen and Lewis paired with the brute force thuggetry of Evans and Fortson!
Not to mention the whiteness of luke vlad and collison and the all time got paid for a few playoff games then sucked got fat stole money from knicks owner guy in jerome james....
A solid team, and the last Sonics playoff team.
The only Sonic team that won a playoff series between 98 and the early 2010’s I believe.
Always joy to hear Bill rant about 97 draft lottery. Can't blame him
Love these redrafts!
I recall Ray Allen saying Tim Thomas could be the best player in the league if he put his mind into it
Which actually offended Thomas and that's why he was a malcontent
brad monaghan should’ve listened to Jesus. Lol
@@TheIcemanthomas that's right. Look where Ray is now
I also saw ray Allen get catfished by a fully grown man soo idk about him
@@monblancnoland4666 funny how he got off the hook for that
Bills random hatred of Tim Thomas is the best part of this video😂😂😂
Please. No one likes Tim Thomas.
I started playing Myth in 1997, great year !
I'm disappointed that House isn't >250 lbs like I imagined.
My sixers are looking lovely! Always so sad Timmy D decided to stay that last yr, felt back then (although I love AI) just the type of big man TD was he would of won a chip here
Can we keep this going? Great 40 minutes of content
No Russillo? We went from Stone Cold and The Rock to Stone Cold and Goldust.
Lol at that analogy. Spot on though.
I enjoyed this about as much as an Austin v. Dustin mid 90s WCW match. Which is to say, very much indeed
hey Goldust was actually solid. House is more like Val Venis
stop it. Joe is at least Chyna.
Everyone after pick 6 was a role player... but I still feel like they got it entirely wrong
who picks keith van horn over jackson
it would of bene fun to see the 7 best players in this draft on one team..considering only jackson really steps on anyone's position and he can do it all and play at 4 spots on the floor so it would work...
For two guys who remember a lot about 90's-00's NBA, they really blew through the 7-15 picks. Speaks to the lack of actual talent, in hindsight.
this draft was garbage after pick 6.....like they said that was the end of clear starters on playoff teams...really after 3 this draft was bad..lol...like captain jack was a late bloomer but deserves to be 4th on this list and that when the draft really got bad and horn when healthy should be 5th and both were great starters but not great talents cause one could only shoot and the other was a headcase knucklehead...t mac and billups were late bloomers too..duncan was a finished product..without him and billups 2nd run on his 5th team due to t macs injuries and bad luck in playoff series this could of gotten really dark..but we got a mvp 2 all nba first team talents for multiple seasons and 2 finals mvps and a two time scoring champ out of this so It saved itself from 1991 and 2000...
Love this concept. I question the approach. Seems like they're evaluating these 1997 rookies with what's valuable in the game right now. Why not pick based on who had the best career in their era?
wonder if Stephen Jax watched this
How dare you mention VanHorn with Stack?? 🤣🤣🤣 Stack was a waaaay better NBA player than that guy LMAO
Van horn on the 2002 nets has a higher rating in 2k20 than golden state 2007 Stephen Jackson
wasnt it a thing that orlando wouldnt let tim duncan bring his wife on the plane with them for the free agency visit and that's one of the reasons he didnt sign with them?
Yes it was smh
Jordan Genetti they were stupid for that. They could have won championships
it was Doc Rivers decision to say no and it was Timmy Ds girlfriend at the time
Goddamn doc rivers ashy voice ass
Imagine that. A big three before the big three era.
Looking forward to the 2004 Draft with all the High school guys.
Keith started a tv station in Utah and had his Van Hornathon fundraisers every Saturday. Great guy
Looking forward to the 1998 draft. Very deep draft in comparison to 1997.
I only found out a couple years ago Stephen Jackson was a McDonalds All-American the same year as Kobe and had committed to Arizona originally
Derek Anderson had ankle injuries in Portland and never seemed to get healthy. I was super hyped when pdx signed him. Watching him, you could see that he had lost mobility in comparison to his spurs Era. Portland never seemed to play him to his strengths. Blazers would try to use him as a spot up shooter during games, but at the end of close games, often times they would give him the ball at the top of the key and iso. Watching it, it was confusing. Here you have a guy that you believe can get you (and showed he could) get you buckets at crunch time, yet, during the other 46 minutes, your not giving him touches or putting him in positions that suit his strengths.
I hate holding the malice at the palace against those players, I think the fans deserved it and the pistons helped escalate it
Van Horn over Steph Jack? hellllll nahhhhhhhh
Alvin Williams was the starting PG on a good Raptors team... shoulda made the list
if he picks pierce for the next one over dirk imma be real upset
If he does that, I’m deleting my phone
no he won't do that lol
he won't bro
He didn't take it easy. But titles wise they have the same amount. It's just Dirk has better individual accolades
@@jordan12118 What
I've re watched this series over and over...please it's time to do 2011-2021...or at least 2011-2018
Top 7 picks I agree completely 100%...and than there's some differences but generally it's not that much of a difference...Mercer I think deserved some spots higher...despite very few playoff appearances...
01) Tim Duncan
02) Tracy McGrady
03) Chauncey Billups
04) Keith Van Horn
05) Stephen Jackson
06) Tim Thomas
07) Bobby Jackson
08) Derek Anderson
09) Ron Mercer
10) Brevin Knight
11) Austin Croshere
12) Antonio Daniels
13) Danny Fortson
14) Anthony Parker
15) Tony Battie
Honorable Mentions:
- Alvin Williams
- Adonal Foyle
- Maurice Taylor
- Troy Hudson
Wow, already at Van Horn at #4. What a thin class. Several teams tanked for
Duncan, but if you fell short, you really nerfed yourself.
but tmac and duncan...thats two legends
@@ProfessaJ Duncan is top 8 all time. McGrady was good, but I can't call a player a legend without a playoff series win. Billups was good after a rough career start. Then the rest of the class was a bunch of who the heck cares. Bench players and less.
But me down for that 2005 Sonics documentary as well.
Wow slandering AI last week and Captain Jack this week, can't wait to see who Bill disrespects next
Maybe I am biased as a Raptors fan but Alvin Williams was a solid starting PG for them
I think House is my favorite guest on these shows
AI and TMac on the same team would not have worked, AI said several times he never wanted another scorer on his team because he wanted to be the only guy and win his way.
he never said that
@@Chronz exactly
Ai never said that dummy stop lying.. Watch any All Star game especially the Rookie Rising stars game Iverson is a willing passer if he had teammates who can actually score
Can you imagine being the JUCO player who had to guard Stephen Jackson?
"So, Pete... You're guarding their best guy. He's 6'8" and running point. I know you're our 13th man, but there's a decent chance he's going to put whoever's on him in the hospital, and we really need Will for next week against Cloud County."
Bobby Jackson was on 2nd team all rookie team. In sure when he said he wasn't on the all rookie team he meant 1st but he was 2nd team.
Crazy to think, TMac still could have gone to Philly when they got the 7th in the KVH trade. Was a lot more realistic than we think.
I think this was gonna be wack but the shit is interesting as hell
GREAT JOB FELLAS
Anytime you can get a 13%, three point shooter in the top ten of the NBA draft you gotta do it, right, House? "
You mook. I'm joshing, Joe. You and Klosterman are by far my favorite 2 guests. House becomes the best strictly by volume. "
T-Mac and AI: a 7×11 prequel.
Few people remember that Starbury ruined Van Horn's career. Minnesota saw what he was doing to the big Ticket and shipped him, same thing happened to Van Horn. Honestly if Van Horn had played for the right coach and system he would have averaged 25 and 10 for his career and a borderline hall of famer. Just goes to show how important coaching and teammates are to a career.
Shawn DeBoi I will not stand for this Starbury slander..
Duncan wasn't hurt in 2001, he got hurt the prior season. 2001 was his comeback year
No, Utah was up ten at half time of the championship game, then lost to Kentucky. Still haunts me.
Van Horn fooled me big time 😂
*capable of making a 3*
This guy was ahead of his time
Van Horn was no joke. He should've been the number one option
I’m not scrolling to see if anybody said this already, but the breaking point with Duncan going to Orlando was that they said Orlando wouldn’t let his family go on the my flight.
16:58 Bill was hesitant.
House is the man!
Stax Jack was nice
These podcasts are saving my mind during all this bull shit. Thank you 🙏
You didnt watch Derek Anderson provide production on those Portland and Spurs teams in the early 00s? I would take him over Croshere every day.
Big Dog wound up in Philadelphia
Wow, I forgot Keith Van Horn's Utah team fared better the year after he left.
Fun fact: Utah lost to Kentucky three years in a row in the tournament - 1996, 1997, 1998 - and one round later each year.
Bill “When I Had Clippers Season Tickets…” Simmons
they underrating my man Anthony Parker big time.
The Raptors have drafted point guards in the first two redrafts.
Actual Top 14 Picks
#1 | SAS | Tim Duncan | Wake Forest
#2 | PHI | Keith Van Horn | Utah
#3 | BOS | Chauncey Billups | Colorado
#4 | VAN | Antonio Daniels | Bowling Green
#5 | DEN | Tony Battie | Texas Tech
#6 | BOS | Ron Mercer | Kentucky
#7 | NJN | Tim Thomas | Villanova
#8 | GSW | Adonal Foyle | Colgate
#9 | TOR | Tracy McGrady | Mount Zion Christian Academy
#10 | MIL | Danny Fortson | Cincinnati
#11 | SAC | Tariq Abdul-Wahad | San Jose State
#12 | IND | Austin Croshere | Providence
#13 | CLE | Derek Anderson | Kentucky
#14 | LAC | Maurice Taylor | Michigan
Simmons & House Top 14 Picks
#1 | Tim Duncan
#2 | Tracy McGrady
#3 | Chauncey Billups
#4 | Keith Van Horn
#5 | Stephen Jackson | Butler County Community College | 42nd | PHO
#6 | Tim Thomas
#7 | Bobby Jackson | Minnesota | 23rd | SEA
#8 | Austin Croshere
#9 | Brevin Knight | Stanford | 16th | CLE
#10 | Derek Anderson
#11 | Antonio Daniels
#12 | Tony Battie
#13 | Danny Fortson
#14 | Ron Mercer
My Top 14 Picks
#1 | Tim Duncan
#2 | Chauncey Billups
#3 | Tracy McGrady
#4 | Antonio Daniels
#5 | Derek Anderson
#6 | Keith Van Horn
#7 | Tony Battie
#8 | Stephen Jackson
#9 | Tim Thomas
#10 | Brevin Knight
#11 | Bobby Jackson
#12 | Kelvin Cato | Iowa State | 15th | DAL
#13 | Austin Croshere
#14 | Scot Pollard | Kansas | 19th | DET
The Cavs had 4 rookies that played almost 30 minutes and made the playoffs
Tim Duncan + ( both healthy ) T-Mac + Grant Hill ? Are you kidding me...these three would win like 5 rings. Just add two 3 and D guys in the starting lineup to play with them and you will be around 60 wins every season and a favourite in every single playoff series. What a shame. Also... Anthony Parker was a moster. Absolute monster in europe. So I have no doubt he would be at least a very quality starter in the NBA if he got a chance. Dude was like a europan Jordan while playing for Macabi Tel Aviv. Him,Jasikevicius,Vujcic,Sharp,Burstein,Baston etc. Those guys were a dynasty. That entire team could play in the NBA as they were.
Good guy Tony Battie
I would've taken Bobby Jackson or Derek Anderson at #7. Both were buckets
Bill " I have clippers season tickets" simmons
It's not a five minute gimmick.
It's a variation to test on your opponent, especially when you're down and have nothing to lose?
Mercer should have went higher I think like at 7 or 8. Also Battie versus Foyle should have been brought up. Foyle had better shot blocking off the bench than Battie.
With 15 you easly go Anthony Parker. He didn't have a good NBA career but in euroleague he was like Michael Jordan for Macabi Tel Aviv. He definetly had talent and no question in my mind he could average 18 points per game at least in the NBA in his prime. Look him up.
@Jackson Gilmore Yes she is. But he was amazing in europe and there is no doubt he would be a good NBA player if he had the chance at the right time. He did return to NBA later in his career when he was over his prime,but around let's say 2005ish he was a monster. I would say the best euroleague player in that decade.
Little known fact - Bill Simmons had Clippers season tickets.
Shoulda had Alvin Williams on there somewhere! He was a quality starting pg for a playoff raps team!
Sometimes, players just happen to play for a lot of teams. Doesn't mean there is a reason. Andre Miller and Joe Smith are examples. Why penalize a player for that?
IMO:
1. Duncan (1)
2. Tmac (2)
3. Chauncey (3)
4. Tim Thomas (6)
5. Stephen Jackson (5)
6. Keith Van Horn (4)
7. Bobby Jackson (7)
8. Austin Croshere (8)
9. Tony Battie (12)
10. Antonio Daniels (11)
11. Ron Mercer (14)
12. Anthony Parker (15)
13. Scot Pollard
14. God Shammgod
15. Derek Anderson (9)
Highly disagree with Van Horn over Jackson, I don't see a side where you pick Can Horn. Jackson should have been a multiple time all star
Why did they talk about T-Mac and Iverson for like 10 seconds but they talked about Keith Van Horn for half the re-draft? Lol
I miss the 20 footers they should make a different game where half court shots are worth 6 points and people can go watch that
get house on these more!
Go away house burner account
@@s.shephard8547 pretty homosexual of you
Wait, Simmons says don't trade down, but a couple years ago the Celtics traded down and won the most lopsided trade of young players in recent years.
Mr. Stoic
Pitino's temperament with Duncan would never work. Duncan went to the right place thankfully. Most of this draft class were what-if players. I think Mercer, Anderson, and Tim Thomas were all smoking blunts in their off time because they should have been great out there. They didn't have that extra gear unfortunately.
Tuff redraft. post Top 4. A lot of solid pro's like Battie, Foyle, Anderson, Blount, Knight, Scotty P, and the underrated Aussie Crochere etc. 2nd round was ugly
This is a fun idea, why ruin it by adding house?