The Story of Sonic Forces
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- čas přidán 9. 07. 2024
- Finally, another hour long video of rambling about the story of a Sonic game. I forgot how much of a pain these videos are to make.
And this is with me cutting out a whole bit talking about how Mania's ending doesn't really connect with Forces because Classic Sonic gets sucked into the portal with the Phantom Ruby, which is not present in Forces. But then it's back at the start of Encore mode. It really seems like the more sensible order of events is Mania leads right into Encore mode. And Forces is a totally unrelated event that leads into Mania Adventures. But I think we all know the real answer to how that mess happened.
So after all this time, do people want to see Infinite again? I would because as I say, I think he could have worked with some tweaking. If he was well handled here, I'd be fine with him as a one-off. But considering how they keep worthless characters like Zavok around, Infinite deserves another chance.
I also like his design. A black and white character wearing a mask with few features. Surprising that I like it, I know.
/ pariah695
ko-fi.com/pariah695 - Hry
People - "This story actually had a great potential".
Pariah - "I'm an optimist, but i'm also a realist".
I’m less than 20 mins in, but does it not?
EGGMAN takes over, Sonic captured, Sonic Friends band together to resist, Infinite and his P.R.
There’s a lot of pieces here to work with, but the intro of the game is fucking terrible.
There is potential, but the execution……
@@ViltrumiteIsRite99There's good stuff there to work a good story, the problem is that you need a good writer that can make a good story while walking on the eggshells that are Sega's rules of how the characters are supposed to act.
I do agree though that it really did not have potential. I’m not even really a fan of just starting a story on “Eggman wins” without some kind of buildup. I think it would’ve been better if it took place at some point in the middle or third quarter of the story.
Example is in Marvel’s Spider-Man 2018, Spider-Man “loses” to the Sinister Six about halfway through the game, and that’s where the story officially shifts and the games tone changes. To me that is much more interesting and engaging.
@@deanmoriarty6015 from the POV of someone who likes the story potential, this is a sonic game where eggman wins and you play as an oc. I think sega/sonic team should have leaned into those two key aspects for this and have sonic be the final guy you recruit at the end
Pariah: Sonic's gone, and Tails has just lost it.
Finally. The blue rat broke this man. Came into this series hoping to change everyone's mind about this franchise's quality, ended up jaded and hopeless like all of us. He is one of us now.
I haven't even watched like 70% of his videos yet I still got depression from reading the comments at 9+ PM.
@@robertlupa8273well I get depression of watching almost every other sonic videos and reading sonic threads online. A lot of them suck.
So sad. This was the video to construct a realized version of the disaster from.
Sonic Forces' story is what critics think 2000's era Sonic stories are. Sonic Team let irony poisoning bleed into the actual games, and this was the result.
thank god we finally leaving this era behind, i missed caring about Sonic and friends😭🙏
@@innocentzbateh... i don't find frontiers story to be a major improvement, in my honest opinion. Haven't played murder of sonic, or dream team, but I heard that murder of sonic has a good story, and that dream team has an ok story
@@Hyp3rSonicDream Team barely has a story lmao
@@bluefire9285its small but there is depth there.
@@innocentzbat Yea, now instead of ripping off Star Wars, we're ripping off Breath of the Wild....
I think the whole writing with the avatar is just how the Japanese write self-inserts. You see this too with Fire Emblem avatars and Persona protagonists, everyone in the story just immediately loves and trusts you and you're the most important person ever even though we just met!! They just write them that way as a sort of wish fulfillment fantasy.
Yeah, this is very common in Pokemon as well, like without even one badge in you're the Lissan Al Gaib in almost every Pokemon game lmao. Of the top of my head, I can only think of the orginal Persona 3 that bucks this trend, with Junpei's jealously and Yukari's scene in Yakushima calling out the protag for being perfect lol.
@@theimpersonator7086 Persona 5 kinda goes against that too seeing as how most characters either don't care for or actively want nothing to do with you at first. Pretty much the only one kissing your ass from the start is Morgana and he's Morgana. Even in Royale with Kasumi, you're just a senior who helped her out once or twice.
However, while it's not Japanese, Genshin especially insufferable about this. Though I guess that's probably just the pandering nature of gacha games in general.
Kinda wild to categorize this as something “the Japanese” do based on a kids game and two games meant for teenagers.
@@rollbustah "this is why we don't like people from the boonies."
You'd think Pariah, the massive anime connoisseur he is, would've known this.
Oh boy.
I don’t think pariah understands how excited I am to hear about this story’s mysterious story breaking problem that no one has ever mentioned.
I’ve Noticed it when the game released and that was a problem for me because that was a big potential but they dropped it
to rip off star wars? there's big potential in just ripping off the story in its entirety?
@@frickerrific2813 No what I meant to say was there had some potential with the whole mystery around infinite
@@user-vc2yu9xq9h oh yeah no, that for sure, it’s unfortunate that he exists only in the context of “hey we want to make worse star wars” yknow?
@@frickerrific2813 yeah I see your point on that whole “there trying to copy Star Wars” issue
The moment you said "Anakin", I started laughing hysterically.
I died at the moment when Sonic became a princess
I don’t know why I didn’t realise that sonic forces is literally Star Wars but in a Sonic game.
@Kelps.mp4 me too 😅
@@sajidgehog7651 And it was starring at us in the face all along. The Death Egg is a big plot point.
@@mrbanks456 We all were deceived by the assumption it was just there for Classic Sonic nostalgia crap, and all its "Star Wars-y" aspects in the game cinematically and story-wise were just the result of the Death Egg always being a Star Wars reference since Sonic 2 and nothing more. Little did we notice that no...there was a LOT more there.
I can't wait for the next video "Sonic Was Always Driving Me Insane"
Me fr
The moment I heard him say wars and remembered this game has the DEATH FUCKING EGG IN IT!!! I knew it was over… it’s just fucking Star Wars…
1. Silver showed in the game since he's favored by fans in Japan and the game was just another Generation in that it was trying to be a "here's the best of the franchise" but more focused on the post-Adventure games (hence Chaos, Shadow being teased as being a villain again, etc.)
2. Knuckles being in charge of the Resistance was down to him being one of the pillars of the franchise without being Tails (they see him as strictly a sidekick) or Amy (she's a waifu/romance). Ian Flynn actually suggested that Vector should have been the commander (he's an actual adult who runs a business after all).
3. The Phantom Ruby in Forces was not meant to be the same as the jewelry in Mania. It was early on in development meant to be a tool for conquest made by Eggman. This is reflected by the prototypes.
4. Infinite was envisioned early on in development meant to be effectively Eggman's Ultimate Lifeform rather than a merc he hired. This addressed the actual dialogue saying Eggman made Infinite and the furries in capsules.
5. The overall plot is just an attempt to make a game canon version of Western interpretations (SatAM and other DiC shows, Archie, Fleetway) where Eggman is a dictator who already rules the setting or most of it with Sonic and Co. rebels trying to stop him. A lot of the faux-Star Wars Pariah talks about here is just from them doing so since SatAM at the least was undeniably modeled on A New Hope (see the entire Swat Bots who are just robot Stormtroopers).
Silver is favored in Japan?
@crimsonzone8984 Yeah he is. The fanbase in JP and other Far East Asian countries is more into the Adventure Era than the Classic games as reflected in fan works.
@@galten7361 huh. That's really great to hear. I really like Silver's conception in the east. I don't the way people in the west think of him and how they portray him in media.
What you listed were a result of the miscommunication between divisions of SEGA, especially when it comes to the plot.
@@galten7361 does Japanese players like Zavok the same way they like Silver?since Zavok appears more often then any other sonic villains
Fun fact: The story of Sonic Forces was written by Eitaro Toyoda and Makoto Goya. And who the hell are those two?
Well, first of all, Eitaro Toyoda is not a complete nobody, he is literally a veteran member of Sonic Team. To give you an idea... He was in the development of Sonic Adventure, working as an event scene editor. He was game designer and enemy game designer for Sonic Adventure 2. He learned and worked alongside Takashi Iizuka on the level design of Sonic Heroes and Shadow The Hedgehog (2005). He was boss game designer for Sonic Unleashed. Also he worked on the development of Sonic Colors and Sonic Generations as Sonic character supervisor and etc. and etc... It is worth mentioning that, before he was hired to write the Forces story, he wrote short stories for the official Japanese website Sonic Channel (There is a Japanese webseries of one-shot comics written and illustrated by Eitaro Toyoda called Sonic Comic, which are pretty nice).
And finally... Makoto Goya had already been working at SEGA since the days of the Sega Saturn. He was in charge of the scenario plot for the real-time strategy role-playing video game, Dragon Force (1996). He is credited as one of the scenario writers for Shenmue 1 and 2. He also worked for Capcom, being the story writer for the Nintendo 3DS game, Professor Layton vs. Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney. In short, the guy already had experience writing stories for video games, but the detail is that he had never written a story for a Sonic game before, so I guess he needed the help of someone veteran like Eitaro Toyoda.
I decided to talk about this, because I see a lot of people credit Ken Pontaff and Warren Graff as the real writers of Sonic Forces, but in reality, they were only in charge of adapting the Japanese script into English.
Edit: Honestly, I'm glad no one knew about those two people, because that's how they were saved from fan harassment and hate. Otherwise, the same thing that Ken and Warren went through (they literally received death threats) would have happened to them.
I mean, after all this time, now that we know how messy the development was, no matter who was in charge of the story you can't even blame them.
Not even your Christopher Nolan's of the world could've pumped out something good with these constrains, mandates, and higher-up paranoia and crunch.
Toyoda didn’t write Forces. He never wrote the main story for a Sonic game. His only contribution in writing was Episode Shadow
@@magma1675 That's right. But in the game's credits, he is credited as a "writer, japanese story and script", so I don't know how much his contribution was been. I mean, the script was written first in Japanese like was in games in the 2000s. It would be great if you could provide a little more info.
@@sebastianmartinez5963 This games rough script was initially written in Japanese, then Warren Graff and Ken Pontac wrote the English version, then Toyoda came and retranslated that back to Japanese. He didn’t actually get to do any original writing
@@magma1675 That's interesting and your contribution is appreciated.
when zoro painted a "z" on vector's chest with his iconic paint brush from lost world, i zoroed all over.
Finding out that Sonic Forces is a ripoff of Star Wars was not on my 2024 bingo card.
Same lol
The 2016 leaked script even refers to the game as "Sonic Wars". A bunch of files on the PC version are also named after that.
@ryananthony2869 It's like Star Wars from trying to be SatAM/Adventures/Underground/Archie/Fleetway. SatAM undeniably was modeled on Star Wars what with Sally being a princess in charge of a rebellion, the Swat Bots, Julian being a cyborg dictator of the setting.
@@galten7361Robotnik is more Palpatine than Darth Vader. And for those who mention Naugus, I guess he’s like a corrupt Yoda.
Funny enough I remember when I was a little kid I would play a Sonic version of Star Wars with my toys. So brought up some good memories with that last bit, lol.
its like you can see the life slowly sap out of pariah the closer we get to the current games.
I'm mentally preparing myself for his Sonic Frontiers review. I know the game is very flawed, but going by his reaction to the post-2000's games, I think cook that game
I really miss the 2000's games and it's stories and characters
just a reminder that shadow 05 did a war setting better
I'll even give Sonic Prime the benefit of the war stuff being more understandable, in Forces its just cringe 😭 😭 😭
Shadow 05's story is great 👍
@@Hyp3rSonic you god damn right it is
@innocentzbat It also made sure that only Rouge actually acted as anything close to a soldier for the scenario with the rest of the reccuring hero cast only fighting the Black Arms themselves or in their estasblished teams rather than being war ministers.
@@galten7361Black Arms?? I said Prime, they had the Chaos Robot clones of each hero
The Black Arms are the alien race lead by Black Doom in Shadow the Hedgehog
The Murder of Sonic The Hedgehog did the self insert oc way better because instead of them being an action hero, they're just like... a guy
They're name is Berry
@sugarsmile7852 yeah, but you can change their name to whatever you want in game
@@gracileferrante4313It’s funny, the Avatar can be made into whoever you want, but they go unnamed, while Barry can be named whatever you want, but he has a defined look.
I started watching Sonic X recently and the lack of G.U.N here made me laugh harder then ever because by Episode 12 of Sonic X, the government is already so sick of Eggman that they attack him directly.
@AceofShadow Sonic X is not canon and it's portrayal of G.U.N. is not how the games portrayed them (Game G.U.N. is not S.H.I.E.L.D. and has no real ability to combat Eggman's empire).
@@galten7361 I know it's non-canon to the games but it's still a funny difference.
@@galten7361I think you're dismissing the fact that they literally funded a planet destroying laser cannon several decades before this even happened. Also the fact that humans simply did not exist in the 2010's sonic games lol
@mau2172 The Eclipse Cannon was made by Gerald and his staff and still needed the Chaos Emeralds to work. More importantly G.U.N. repeatedly fails to stop both Eggman and Sonic's posse in Adventure 2. Eggman didn't even bring his robots with him in his raids.
@galten7361 they had the ability to stage a whole war with the black arms. I don't believe that they wouldn't be able to at least resist eggman despite sa2 clearly outlining how much weaker G.U.N robots (and other such devices) are compared to eggman's robots. Although, to be fair, this is only seen in the gameplay where eggman blasts through everything in his mech so the grunt-level robots might actually be on a similar level. Ultimately, it's not like G.U.N is portrayed as a small faction with no power, I fully believe they'd be able to pose a threat to eggman in a meaningful way if provoked.
This is arguably Pariah's nost anticipated video in his Sonic Tuber phase.
It was definitely the one I was nost anticipating. I definitely did mot see the star wars thing coming but it was hilarious
I just realized that infinite has an extremely stylized design, in the sense that they modeled his hair based on the concept art (angular and spiky), while Shadow has to settle with his round spikes
"her"?
@@purplebruh947 My mistake, English is not my native language, I corrected 3 other errors before sending it, I missed the least important one
@@harryenchiladas8826 its all good
1:31 That is true, but the original Japanese version isn’t the Japanese version we got. The game was first written in Japanese, then in English by Pontaff & in Japanese again. So the current Japanese version is still based on the English version.
Are you saying that they actually used pontac and graff as some sort of decoy writers for fans to put the blame on and then do better ones after the negative response put into those two? Was this also the case in the other 2010 sonic games?
The funny thing about this whole "it had a ton of wasted potential" thing is that, despite how many times that has been repeated, not once have I ever seen ANYONE explain on what this supposed "potential" even was. This video is the closest thing I've seen for talking about some wasted potential.
Let me tell me what I think it was:
This wasted potential was nothing more than Sonic fans trying to justify falling for hype and the marketing campaign (which is sadly so common with media nowadays but that's a different rant), instead of just admitting they fell for a trap and admitting maybe Sonic Forces was nothing more than random ideas put in a blender all along.
@Neawn-by5pi The wasted potential talk is just fanfic ideas and them wishing they could just get a game version of SatAM/Archie.
People falling for hype and marketing also happened with Frontiers but that's a talk we're not ready to discuss yet.
@@DaHeis Idk people hated on frontiers before it released and then the shift happened where people started to love it. Marketing for frontiers was pretty ass
The closest thing to potential besides infinite would be the custom character who in all honesty would have fit better in a spinoff game like the Riders series (too bad that got shitcanned thanks to Sonic Team's obsession with gimmicks) much like how a character like Infinite would have been better in a completely different game. The whole what if Eggman won shit will never work as a game because there are so many variables that have to be taken into account for it to even remotely work unless you do what Forces does and throw everything to the wind and reduce the world to just Green Hill and Chemical Plant and at that point you would just have Eggman just take over an island or two because that makes infinitely more sense but then you're back at square one. It was doomed from the start.
There's almost always potential to be found in a "what if the villain won?" set-up, especially in long-running franchises like this one where the status quo mandates that they never get an extended period of victory. "Sonic CD" shows via its Bad Futures just how bad a deal Eggman conquering the world would be, but the whole point of the game is that these are hypothetical futures that you're supposed to stop. Taking that concept but NOT involving time travel and having a much bigger narrative focus than what was possible with the Classic games could have carried "Sonic Forces" far.
The problem was that someone at Sega (on the creative or executive side of things, I don't know) decided that "Forces" shouldn't examine its premise much and instead try to brush the consequences of Eggman's conquest under the rug as much as possible. Meaning that any novel character interactions based on a seemingly hopeless situation that we COULD have gotten were wasted. Yeah, I get that the characters were being botched like no one's business for a long time before "Forces" hit the scene, but it's not as though they couldn't have gotten their act together here if they really wanted to.
19:18
“Because the characters read the script” That’s pretty funny, but also very accurate to the logical problem something like this would have with no explanation.
Pariah saying this also reminds me of that one time Robotnik, in early Archie Sonic, read the script of one of the issues of the comic. Which is pretty funny on an unintentional level.
I can't wait for the fanart of Sonic dressed as Princess Leia sparked by this video
I can see it now... "Star Wars: A Sonic Story" now on Disney+ XD
I almost read Disney XD ahhhhh my childhood
13:59 Regarding that scene in Unleashed, I think Tails retreating was actually a smart thing to do, because the alternative seems to be he tries taking them on before being overwhelmed and whooped by that giant club monster
At least, that’s how I see it
I like the Avatar in this game. They are likable but aren’t complex. Their friendship with Sonic is out of nowhere, but I’m not bothered too much.
Especially that I love Gadget. The red wolf. I think he’s likable and pretty adorable.
Ian Flynn is a Sonic-fanboy-turned-official-janitor.
The Star Wars comparison made my jaw drop. Immaculate content, as always!
Throughout the video, you say that fans were upset about certain elements of this game's story *for some reason*.
The thing is, there is a reason why Sonic fans are upset: they view Sonic as a work with complex lore that is interesting to get into, not too dissimilar to Kingdom Hearts (don't know much about it) or Kirby. When you view a game series (or any work of fiction) as lore-oriented, you'd expect things to be tightly connected and explained from the lore standpoint, you'd expect meaningful and clever references to old stuff, and of course, you'd expect good stories that utilize those elements to their full storytelling potential. The problem is, Sonic *isn't* a lore-oriented work, but the marketing team, the lore team and some of the creatives that don't have that much influence over Sonic Team's direction (i.e. Ian Flynn) *desperately try to make it lore-oriented* so that fans wouldn't be upset.
That's why fans are angry over Forces story, and that's why fans try to come up with convoluted ways to explain the plot holes the bits of lore that were given in previous games, despite the fact that they may contradict to each other.
Some find it useful to complain to SEGA about this so that changes would be made (and Frontiers has since validated that approach for those fans, despite the fact that Frontiers doesn't actually adhere to original characterizations but instead ponders to headcannon ones that fans came to accept and like). Some find fun in theorizing all plot holes and inconsistencies away, and that's totally fine.
But the amount of effort and mental energy you have to spend to alter a fictional universe that the original creators don't bother with properly upholding, to me, does NOT make it worth it, especially if you don't even have fun with it. So that's why I don't bother with Sonic's lore anymore. I just moved on to works of fiction that *do* have proper and consistent lore, like Kirby or Hollow Knight. It's much more satisfying that trying so hard to fix a broken mess of a universe that is Sonic. But I understand why people try to do that: Sonic has a lot of potential that simply isn't being realized by the official staff, and they want that potential to finally be realized. This is also why people are excited about Frontiers or Sonic x Shadow Generations, because it at least feels like Sonic Team tries to bring back the lore-oriented appeal of Sonic into the spotlight, albeit not quite right if you look into it closely.
As for Forces, the moment they showed Classic Sonic is the moment I gave up on this game. No amount of marketing and hyping up has convinced me that this game's story would be good, and I was right to think so.
TL;DR: Sonic Team don't give a fuck about the Lore. Hell they intended for the Ancients in Frontiers to be completely new species, but Flynn made it that they're related to Chaos and the Chao and they just rolled with it.
30:14 Pariah is too afraid to admit he want to hold hands with Sonic.
Who wouldn't?
20:53
The reason is because they combined two separate stones. Originally the Phantom Ruby in Forces was a completely different rock. Its name literally was different in the leaked early script for the game.
We are also in a game that treats Classic and Modern as two separate dimensions as well.
Something interesting to know about the Sandhill line in the English version is that could kind of call back to Sonic Adventure. There's a level called Sand Hill. You can argue, "Sonic's never been to Sand Hill, though." You don't know that. He's been to many places, on and off screen. You can also argue, "But it's not meant to be a reference." You don't know that. Granted, neither can I. But I did say "could." It's speculation. But that line of reasoning does fix it, from being another bad joke to a neat little callback.
I don't think i can afford to care about "callbacks" after what frontiers did
As if the writers knew about Sand Hill
Ok you got the biggest laugh out of me as soon as you said "Anakin Skywalker" cause i knew EXACTLY where you were going lmao. Thank you Pariah i needed that. But you are right about Forces story being kind of unsalvagable cause i realized when i tried comimg up witu concpets for a rewrite i quickly realized outside of the premis i created an entirly different story only using certain elements of this game
To be fair, Sonic's personality has always been being really chummy with basically anyone.
@netcatt22 Sonic 2's manual says that Sonic didn't care what Tails did and he didn't actively try to be friends when they first met.
But not to THIS degree, he is chill and friendly but not to the point he treats you like he has a secret crush on you
Despite Sonic Forces' story sucking, it quite litteraly has the biggest impact of the timeline.
True and gens
@@NickMario1 Not really. Forces :
-pretty much began IDW
-killed GUN
-had both Sonic and Shadow M.I.A
-was responsible behind Whisper's backstory
-"""""teased""""" the first villain of IDW
-made the character of Mimic
-lead to the whole Mr Tinker/Belle situation
-had the Eggman empire ruining Green Hill to the point where there are still sandy parts according to IDW Issue 63
-created the Resistance which lead to the Restoration
Gens only has Classic Sonic and even then, I don't think we're seeing him anytime soon.
it's as if Eggman told his badniks "execute order 66", thus creating one of the most important moments of the timeline
@@DaYapGuy
Sonic Team has yet to elaborate on the state of GUN as their database was mentioned in Frontiers.
But yeah, the IDW run is heavily reliant on Forces and its Speed battle series that they outright refuse to show any humans besides Eggman.
@@michaelgiuseppesalvatore4912 Yeah ! But the story sucks so the games barely notice it. If it was good, this would be the best Sonic story ever.
Very ironic that the main power of the villain of Sonic Forces is making false promises. It’s like a reflection of Sonic Team’s state of mind while developing this game. They were so insecure in their franchise and their own ability to deliver that they had to make all sorts of grandiose promises about what the game would be like that ended up falling flat once people got to try the game for themselves. Just like how Infinite is all bark, no bite, and is really a pathetic character at his core. In that sense, Sonic Forces story actually really works as a meta-narrative.
I thought I was the only one who thought that the story of Sonic Forces was a Star Wars rip off. Guess I was wrong bout’ that.
If Zavok gets shoehorned into any future Sonic games, at least we'll get a continuation of the glorious running joke where Pariah just makes up random crap when referring to him. My favorite joke on this channel.
We need Paramount to make a live action Zavok movies, where Zavok is Sonic's annoying roommate.
I think everyone looks too deep into the "Sonic from another dimension" line when I'm pretty sure it's just a stupid pun... Cuz he's the 2 dimensional Sonic... haha get it?
It was never a translation error. In the official Japanese website for Sonic Forces, Classic Sonic's bio literally states that he's from another dimension, in which they are trying to establish a separate Classic brand with Mania.
@@kilometersperminute4113 Didn't SEGA's TailsTube retcon to Classic Sonic being from the past?
12:51
From what I can tell in interviews, Classic Sonic was always intended to be in the game. They probably just didn’t have enough time and/or budget while making this game in two years, to make it.
You should watch Stuff Dissected’s videos on Sonic Forces. It goes over what was most likely the original plan for the story, like how Infinite was supposed to be a creation of Eggman, which is for some reason shown in one of the final levels, and how there was supposed to be an army of Infinites as opposed to an army made up of Shadow, Chaos, Metal Sonic and Zavok.
It helps explain why Sonic and friends talk about how Infinite lacks friends so much (despite him literally leading his own mercenary group prior), and also might help explain why they are so focused on his power source if he’s a creation of Eggman’s.
I really liked the Star Wars parallels you made, good stuff. If Infinite was supposed to have clones, then Sonic Forces would have been a literal clone wars.
I'd like the literal clone wars idea, rather than the final battle in avengers endgame that the game went with.
@@blitzes3177 well that would promote murder (well, outside of Biolizard and Black Doom).
I never made the Star Wars connection, but it doesn't surprise me because Sonic 3 is basically a retelling of Castle in the Sky.
tbh the phantom ruby for me sounded like a simple device to make bringing back old stuff - even stages in sonic mania. And i think its cuz they wanted an excuse to make generations 2.
I’m confused. Why is Classic Sonic being from the past a retcon? That’s just literally what he is in generations.
That was a retcon in that game, originally classic and modern sonic wasn't actually a thing, and the characters looked different because of an art style, and they suddenly talk (in mainline games anyway) because the hardware actually allows them to do it in an elegant way and they put way more emphasis on story. For all intents and purposes, sonic 1 sonic was the same as sonic unleashed sonic (no I'm not counting colors)
@thatoneguyUknow They retconned him into a mute to pander to the crowd (especially e-celebs like Yahtzee) who insulted the post-Adventure Era for among other things the plots and voice acting.
The whole "Sonic is bestest friends with your avatar" is probably the most made-for-kids a Sonic game has felt in a while. I'm sure the 8-12 year-old demographic loved it.
Also the "Sonic from another dimension" thing was clearly just a joke about Classic Sonic being from the second dimension. /hj
As someone who knows absolutely nothing about star wars that ending blew my mind
I remember you teased on stream a few months ago that the problem with Forces “started and ended with S”. I’ve been wondering ever since! That it was “Star Wars” is a pretty mind-altering reveal. Well done!!!
This is gonna be PEAK 👍(the video, not the story)
this series really, REALLY, needs a bit of reboot cuz Jesus it's dumpster fire
No, It can't, just like Marvel comics didn't even do that.
Just DC and that Also created problems
@@joaquindiaz3621 i still think it's better to have a reboot cuz were at the point where we apparently need canon again, but it doesn't make sense with all the inconsistent shit that's happened over time, so if we want a canon again, you need to do a reboot, or even have different continuities so we stop making every thing just one picture that doesn't make sense
@@Whatevertoonz They won't do that because they would rather work with what they have, Japanese franchises barely do reboots like that
@@joaquindiaz3621 i know they most likely won't, I'm not saying it will, I still think that a reboot would probably be the only fix at this point if they want a canon without so many problems
Yeah, definitely.
Sonic did have a pretty good canon once - Sonic Adventure, Sonic Shuffle, Sonic Adventure 2, Shadow the Hedgehog. These games' stories didn't have many inconsistencies and built upon each other quite well (especially in the case of SA2 and SHTH). But then Sonic '06 came along, a soft reboot, and the canon remains decimated ever since. As you said, maybe another reboot will help to make the canon logical again...
37:50 don't talk trash on this moment, this moment is just like moments I have in real life where it's like "ah yeah, I'm back!" and then nothing ever happens. Does that not happen to you guys?
Your statement at the end...
THAT'S why so many jokes were about Infinite being Kylo Ren. Turns out it was more on the nose than I thought, go figure.
What we were promised: "War for/Fall of Cybertron."
What we got: 💀
Fist Bump is just a few lyric changes from becoming a love song.
"Running to the sunset. Such a different feeling. Both of us believing". That is a solid 8 seconds of weirdly love song sounding lyrics right there.
It already is, it's just a very friend zoney love stuff
I definitely was one of the ones that greatly over complained about the Tails characterization and Classic Sonic now being from another dimension. I still care about the characterization of the characters, so I will still champion them being written correctly for as long as it takes… but yeah I am kinda at the point where I see these just aren’t the same characters anymore and I just now treat each new Sonic game’s story as it’s own thing. And as their own things, I very much do not care for these stories at all starting with Colors.
That’s specifically talking about all the main Sonic Team made Sonic games, so Colors, Generations, Lost World, Forces, and Frontiers. I don’t include Superstars in that group because it was made by a different team even if the writers are the same, and I think that story is pretty good.
Sonic stories mainly treating themselves as self contained is probably for the best, especially since Sega doesnt seem to care for the lore/planning/story cohension. See the Moon lmao. Also wont end up with stuff like Shadow having a very memorable death in Adventure 2 only to come back in the next game.
At some point, I just can't bother with trying to argue against how characters are portrayed. As far as I'm concerned a lot of characters peaked in the mid 2000's and have not been anywhere close for way longer than I should care. Why should I care if I don't think Tails has been protrayed well in this game, he's been stuck fiddling with the stupid Wii U gamepad since Unleashed. I can only bark at a brick wall for so long before I realize it can't speak back. This is very defeatist and pessimistic but I have virtually no faith in Sonic storytelling anymore and anything somewhat decent I treat as a fluke.
So where's the scene where Sonic and the avatar character kiss and then find out they're siblings and Infinite is their father?
What is wrong with you?
@@tylerparkes-jk7uv Star Wars reference.
BRUH NOOOOO 🤣🤣🤣
@tylerparkes-jk7uv what's wrong with YOU? It's a reference
@murilosampaio1264 It is a terrible reference even if it's a joke.
Great video Pariah, I can't wait for you analysing the story of next game, where I remember Princess Leia heading towards the lonely Temple Island of the planet Ahch-To, where Luke Skywalker is rumored to live as a hermit. Instead Leia finds small Porg and Lanai Caretakers creatures and this big ass Wookiee, who likes throwing Leia like a baseball. Leia has to unleash her full power of the force and fight the giant Wookiee. - Oh yeah and somehow Palpatine returned and he has new daugther that they call "Rey Skywalker" or something I don't know. :P
BROO HOW DID YOU CONNECTED THAT LAST PART SO WELL IN SO MANY LAYERS XDD
GOSH DARN IT FRONTIERS IS ALSO A STAR WARS RIPOFF BUT OF THE HECKING SEQUEL TRILOGY NOOOOOooooooo... 🤣🤣🤣
28:50 Thank you for pointing that out. I knew I couldn’t have been the only one to get that vibe from this game.
i've waited a long time for this video
The story *could* draw an parallel between Infinite and the avatar. Infinite's mercenary squad was taken out by Shadow, the avatar's resistance group was taken out by Infinite, both are left seemingly traumatized and filled with self-doubt. If Forces was willing to do anything actually meaningful, it could explore how the avatar is able to face their fears and overcome them while Infinite is unable to and retreats into this edgelord persona. Infinite even feels like a bit of a edgy Sonic OC, being in some ways a character he's created. You could do something with that! But it's Forces, so it won't.
In my opinion, the biggest issue with this story is that it just felt like Sega were going "we're going to give older fans what they want by upping the stakes and having a more serious story.... but not that much! After all, we've got to keep the people who hate Sonic stories happy too, right?"
I have a confession to make, i was one of the people tricked by the marketing of Sonic Forces, in fact i was so excited for Sonic Forces that i basically left the Sonic community in hopes to not get spoilers from it until i played, it was not until way later when i found out Sonic Forces is actually bad, i know right? My naivety is disgusting.
But seriously, if you like this game, i respect you, but for me Sonic Forces is just a mildly entertaining game, and i don't care much for it.
If there's one thing y'all should learn, is that if there's a game with a story that you don't like, you can just skip the cutscenes, it's that easy, doesn't matter much for Forces though since the game isn't that much better, but people make such a big deal out of this game being mediocre that honestly it's kinda tiring, this video is great though, Pariah's cynical ramblings are way more entertaining than the story of Sonic Forces could ever be, and it made me think about Sonic Forces' story in ways i never thought before, like that comparison to Star Wars was genius, i never thought about that before.
Honestly, might be the best Sonic Forces video i've ever seen, and it makes me proud to be a subscriber.
Never really engaged with Star Wars, so bo wonder I never noticed what you brought up.
Beyond that, well articulated points about this whole mess.
31:07 OH GOD THE COAT IS INSIDE HIS MOUTH
The video everyone has been waiting for
Infinite is genuinely one of my favorite villains in the entire Sonic franchise. As much as people make fun of the "I'm not weak!" scene, personally, I think it is a scene that defines the character of Infinite well, without needing to make it so complex and it genuinely makes him a good character (A little half-hearted but not it's so bad).
I love Infinite. So much squandered potential! Considering his black and red color scheme and his "virtual reality" powers, it would've been a no-brainer to bring him back for Frontiers and tie his powers to the Ancients.
@@sophitiaofhyrule I'll tell you something funny. When I first saw Sage, I theorized that she was Infinite.
I theorized that because Sage's color pattern (red, black, and white) were exactly the same as Infinite's. The energy emanating from she seemed like some kind of "Virtual Reality", exactly like Infinite. I mean, Infinite posed as Sage, taking the appearance of a little girl who at first glance seemed harmless, with the aim of deceiving and guiding Sonic into a trap on the Starfall Islands, based on a leak from Sonic Frontiers back in 2021. (which at that time was called Sonic Rangers).
That leak, by the way, mentioned that Sonic wakes up with amnesia on the Starfall Islands and a mysterious voice guided Sonic to tour the islands. That voice was neither more nor less than Sage's own (this was proven by several clips of unused Sage voices).
Oh well... Sorry if I made the comment too long, but I certainly got a little carried away xD
Loving the Zavok gag
about the stilted cutscene animation, frontiers already kinda fixed that AND shadow gens is looking to be a truly AAA looking sonic game both animation wise and graphics wise
Fleetway Sonic The Comic did the plot of Sonic Forces way better all the way back in 1993 in issue 9 and took them issue 100 to take back the world they lived in
I would say the movie Star Wars did the plot of Sonic Forces better all the way back in 1977 lol.
@@Pariah6950 wait it did
@sugarsmile7852 The plot was just them trying to make a game version of the DiC shows and Archie with Fleetway. It didn't since among other things none of the recurring hero cast besides Blaze and Silver are anything close to actual superheroes with most of them only fighting villains casually. Only Blaze and Vector have anything resembling skills that could be handy for running a rebellion with Sonic etc. al overall just teens who don't fight villains as an organized force.
@@galten7361I don’t think That’s the case, because as Pariah Said, the story is a Star Wars rip off.
And Sonic Team clearly do not Care for the DIC shows and the comics as they have never referenced Them in their games.
@themissingbits6375 All of the faux Star Wars in the plot was from how SatAM was significantly made with Star Wars in mind (Sally being more or less Leia Organa as a furry, Julian being a cyborg dictator, the robot Stormtroopers). And Sonic Team not actively including any of the DiC or Archie or Fleetway characters doesn't mean they haven't pulled from for ideas. Orbit and Cubot for one are legit just a wannabe Scratch and Grounder (with Sonic X also pulling from them for Decoe and Becoe with Bokkun).
I will never understand why Sonic fans think Eldritch Horror Infinite should've been thr final boss of Forces. The game is literally about freeing the world from Eggman's control, this theme runs throughout the game, from the fact that every minor enemy is an Eggman robot, to the end goals going from Eggman to resistance symbols, to the map showing how much of the world is ruled by Egman. It makes perfect sense that thr last fight of the game, where you've slowly defeated Eggman throughout is Eggman himself.
That comparison at the end was...something ELSE entirely...
I can’t believe Infinite is Sonic’s father; that’s crazy.
22:23
If you recall, the Phantom Ruby and Classic Sonic was sent to Forces. But we only Classic Sonic appears in the game.
I think the Ruby here in front of Eggman’s base is that same one from Mania.
Even then, I find it weird how two of Forces’ prequels goes against the story in the game.
Episode Shadow tries to tell us that Infinite was this lone Jackel, when he actually just said to be made by Eggman in the final level. Probably with the use of the Ruby.
Even then, it’s the best we got for Infinite’s backstory in the game itself. Kinda stupid that we have to go to random side material for the full story. Especially when the only origin the game itself leads us to is not even consistent with the prequels entirely. It only works out as the characters not there for his creation said he was made by Eggman out of nowhere.
Similar to your idea for Tails and Classic Sonic. If they had kept Classic Sonic being a Phantom Ruby illusion instead of the whole Sonic Mania tie in thing, I could see it being that Tails reverting to how he was before meeting Sonic created an illusion of him from when they first met and he seemed so cool and unstoppable to Tails after sticking up for him on their first time together. That life changing moment where he began to look up to Sonic and wanting to be just like him. It would give an explain why he's Classic Sonic and why Tails focuses on him throughout Forces, as much as it'd be preferable he just not be there for obvious Classic Sonic nostalgia pandering. Not perfect, but it at least feels less forced and at least a little more worthwhile that way.
I'll defend tails in unleahsed by saying he at least had the excuse of never seeing dark gaia spawn, there were at least 3-4 of them, and one several times larger than him.
Tails has seen chaos before and defeated chaos 4 on his own, so I think it's more valid to think tails hiding from chaos 0 is a valid complaint
Are you just making sonic story vids for the views now if you dont care?
The story of Sonic Forces & Mania!
A new pariah video? It’s a good day
I just remembered that they don't use the Chaos Emeralds in sonic forces
Yeah!...
Me and Sonic, we're best friends!
I'm Sonic's best friend! ME!!
Overall, the 2010s was a bad decade for Sonic games. Sure it has 3 hit's and these were some of the best Sonic games ever so those were major hits. But all other games in that decade were either mediocre or bad. One element that was consistently bad even in good Sonic games (Minus Mania) is the story that practically ruined Sonic and its characters.
Wait how was classic sonic being Modern Sonic’s past self a retcon?!
Since the game is a star wars rip-off and Luke kisses his sister in the star wars films does that mean my OC kisses Sonic?
…..I think SEGA walked back in term of the Phantom Ruby in which Eggman lost the original and all of the prototypes (including Infinite’s) were copies that he made that winds up being absorbed in the original at the end of Forces.
I just noticed that Infinite in prequel comic is actually off-model. He misses white pattern on his back in Rise of Infinite and his collar is misinterpeted as fur despite the fabric texture and it's in both issues he shows up.
I would’ve loved to see Tails team up with Omega in this story.
This Story, like the rest of the game, could’ve worked if the writing/characterization were better and if it actually took it’s time. Still better than 06’s story though… because at least it has a much more interesting premise.
You hit it right on the nail, Sonic meets a new character and helps them change for the better, it's just that easy for his stories to be good and yet Sonic Team keeps fumbling the bag.
_Sonic : Strike Forces Heroes_
_Sonic_
_Team_
_-Alledged-__ __-Allegiance-__ Allied_
_Restoration_
_Stratagem_
Former commander: _Rose Amy Valentine_
I get the star wars part but ripping off?
Infinite should have been good in the first place to be more like anakin but the guy was a mercenary, not a misunderstood edgy teen who was a slave and constantly complains about sand kind of guy, also its kinda a reacurring trope on japan as well of making someone betray their people for power, kamen rider does this with some of their antagonist
you explaining how it's pretty much an _exact_ star wars ripoff blew my mind
Infinite is my favorite Star Wars villain.
I really wish to be able to get as firm a grasp on the foundational principles of writing as you have one day.
I think that the biggest dissapointment is the absence of the chaos emeralds.
Both in mania and the final boss of forces there's this thing as the ruby seems to have its own will and act on his own accord, and like the emeralds like swiftly being mentioned in rush adventure also seem to have a will of their own.
So, my idea would be that instead of having the lame and overused "power or friendship and teamwork" we can have a very simple, yet effective analogy: the lone and malevolent phantom ruby vs the united and benevolent chaos emeralds . And dont give me the stupid bs that "phantom ruby is stronger than the emeralds" since no feat in forces make the ruby comparable to the might of a super state. And as for how in mania the ruby difused super sonic,a simple solution will be involving the master emerald into the story as a way to make the chaos emeralds stay together.
Also, expected to have at least mentioned Amy's line in that stage in which she acts as if Infinite was eggman's creation. I think that could've been a neat idea, since he could've been like, Eggman's own ultimate life form which unlike Shadow is not born from a benevolent cause of curing a disease and instead be created for annilating his enemies.
They kinda shy away from super transformations in the 2010s. Only gens got a super final boss while LW and Forces only got optional super transformations.
Infinite was eggman's creation in an earlier version, but they decided to go with the current route later on. Amy's dialogue was just not changed.
@kilometersperminute4113 They must've just figured that Infinite being another Shadow wasn't needed for the character.
I agree but more so in the sense that I heavily wonder why the Chaos Emeralds weren't seeked out in the first place by the heroes or villains. Guys, you have miracle gems that can can cause great fortune or disaster in this war, go out and loom for them! I don't mind when the Chaos Emeralds aren't touched on, sometimes I prefer the stories or gameplay circumstances where they aren't needed for the billionth time. But in this specific scenario, their existence not being touched upon actively irks me. Eggman in pne of the prequel comics actively rejects taking the Master Emerald with him after Knuckles leaves it out in the open because he apparently has all the power he needs in the Ruby but like...dude just take the Master Emerald. The only real reason he doesn't is because the Master Emerald was not on anyone's mind while making the game because they don't care.
@@kilometersperminute4113 yeah, I realized that Amy's line came from a previous version of the script, but I think that unlike colors and lost world that didn't lost much by not having the emeralds/super sonic fights, same can't be said about forces
@@castform7 yeah, it kinda doesn't make sense that the emeralds are not even mentioned in the game once.
Also, unlike colors and lost world which didn't lost anything and work just fine without the emeralds, not having them in forces is literally a plot hole since they can turn the tide against eggman, also if eggman had the emeralds then the pressure over the main cast would be even bigger.
Also, the fact that the phantom Ruby needs a power source apparently makes you wonder why eggman thought he didn't needed the emeralds since they are literally the ultimate power sources.
Honestly as much as it doesn't make sense for Sonic to be chummy with the Avatar, it did put a big smile on my face
Also infinite does appear apart from mobile phones, he appeared in the toyoda stories and those are stories that people like, i dont know if you checked them out but most people say that they are good
24:50
Or that Infinite joins Eggman and the Jackal Squad follows suit. And we have a time skip to after Shadow defeating them.
Also, I find it funny how the artist didn’t even try to hide Infinite’s face. It’s like they know there isn’t much of a pay off for hiding his face anyways so they just ignore it.
Made my day
I didn't wake up today thinking I'd find out that Forces' story is a rip-off of Star Wars' story
No one did
My take on Classic Sonic is that AT THE TIME of Generations, he was in fact, from the past. The adventure that took place in Generations happened to be new for both Sonics, Classic and Modern, so the skills Classic Sonic learned throughout his travels with his older, more experienced self would have set him on a different path from Modern Sonic, making a timeline branch, which could be considered another world or dimension.
My problem with Classic Sonic is that they have retconned him to be from the past again, when clearly Generations was new for Modern Sonic too.
If Classic Sonic is still just Modern Sonic from the past, it implies he eventually grows up to become Modern Sonic and experiences Generations from the Modern perspective. But it wouldn't be a new adventure for him at that point.
31:20
You’re the first person I’ve seen who thought that the Ruby could be selective.
Or I think, you do say it’s just an illusion and its effects only the mind. Even though we see it cause permanent destruction. But even then, I do think the Phantom Ruby was intended to be selective.
I think the game doesn’t well convey how the Ruby works which is why people always joke about this scene.