AVRO Arrow vs MIg-31 (Part 1)
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- čas přidán 15. 04. 2020
- Episode 7 continues the series, but starts a new storyline. The Arrow Mark 3 was to be a Mach 3 plus interceptor. There was significant design work done, but much was left to do. Much can be extrapolated though from the Iroquois engine itself and the Arrow Mark 2. The story continues.
(Series Link - • AVRO ARROW vs F 35 & F 18 )
NOTE: This is a work of fiction. Names, characters, businesses, places, events and incidents are either the products of the author’s imagination or used in a fictitious manner. Any resemblance to actual persons, living or dead, or actual events is purely coincidental. - Hudba
The most Canadian Patriotic story on CZcams. 10 out of 10. Can't wait for episode 8.
Me too! These vids reflect care, love, talent and lots of hard work!
T
Awesome job you guys!!! I can't wait for part 2
going to wait patiently!
Virt. you done it again,love it.
Thank you for making this 😁
Orenda pushes the limits and the arrow undergoes structural modifications to accommodate extra power of Iroquois second generation engines improving the combat flight ceiling to 100,000 feet. It is expected that with the new variant of the wolverine missle can shoot down satellites anywhere in near orbit
That's why I changed careers and went into Engineering. We can do it, technically. We could do it, from a production standpoint. We should do it, because we've nowhere to go but up.
Awesome keep em coming!
Hmmm...that was most enjoyable! Good work!
Wow, Just binge watched the whole series. Love it. Please episode 8.
Thanks Northern...Glad you liked it. Working on 8 as we speak.. These do take some time though.....regards...Virtual
This is brilliant!
Hello, I was only 4 yo when the arrow was cancelled yet I remember it clearly. My father was a WW2 pilot ( P40 in Burma ) and he was really upset with the politics of it all. I suppose that was the reason that I remember that so well. Thank you for all your hard work. It is greatly appreciated. All the best, always from your friend in Vancouver BC.
HI Wayne...Thank you for your comment and thanks for watching. regards,....Virtual
My dad talked about it and my drafting teacher worked on some components
Now we definitely need to see part 2. Very well done 👍👍
Great story ! I am anxious waiting for part 2.....
I'm from Ontario been reading up on the Avro Arrow for a while. I am still disappointed that it was never put into service. It's funny how we have the CP-140 Aurora in service, but we didn't put the Avro into service. I'm pretty sure that they could have made several different variants of the Avro Arrow with that technology as well which would have out competed alot with what we now have in the Royal Canadian Air Force.
Hi Alex...you are correct in that assumption..regards....Virtual
Hi Alex yes I worked for AV Roe and was there when it was prime minister Defenbaker Who shut down the AVRO. Arrow. ,we were so far ahead of any country,it was one Beautiful jet intercepter ,we were on the roof and watched the first take off of the Arrow 201. ,Sad day Friday. February 20/1959. When we got word 1,500 people let go ,VERY SAD. WHAT A LOSS FOR CANADA
Just keeps getting better & better. Thank You All.
Will make sure to keep an eye open for part 8.
Great fictional storytelling and video production! 👍
I have been waiting for this thank you . Hard to read the subtitles.
Sorry about that. This was a very difficult Episode to create. I had to get this one right or the following Episodes would not work. Hope you liked what you saw. regards....Virtual
@@Virtualenvirons I was so happy to see CANADA great again but white on white no go change colour. God bless.
General this is fantastic. My only recommendation is use a little it of electronic for a choir to make it sounds like Hanz Zimmer of Williams in some money shots.
HI Bacon. Can only use music that is not copywriter protected. The orchestral music is from iMovie itself and the piano is played by my uncle and myself. I wrote some of the arrangements.....regards....Virtual
This great work, and brings back some Canadian pride. CBC should get you guys to write a TV series for them.
I think it would make a great Netflix movie. I have spoken with some people in the industry, but none of them know what the Arrow was. It does not mean anything to them unfortunately....regards.....Virtual
Love the story. Very well done. What would be great is if the episode numbers could be in the video titles so that the series can be watched in sequence...
Hi John...If you watch each video to when the credits role, there is a link to the next Episode....thanks for watch....regards.....Virtual
Mig-31 just like the Firefox movie... Awesome clip!!!
still one of the best things on You Tube
5 happy faces, Ill be back to see it again
AWESOME. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You must upload the music! (some is already up.) Great plot and dialogue. But I am going blind. Could you use a slightly larger font for part 2? Laser surgery failed. But 206 is STILL gorgeous!
HI P.M. Glad you liked it. I am afraid I can't enlarge the font. I have a hard enough time getting everything in as it is. Time to justify getting a larger computer screen. I was thinking about uploading my uncles music. I will ask his family. regards.....Virtual
@@Virtualenvirons Well, TAKE CARE! We, like the 206 team, live in hazardous times. Well, at least you tried. Can you make a higher contrasting colour, then? Hope the music is available. Your uncle was a man of SUPERIOR TALENTS. Just like you and the 206 team1
OH NO!!! another cliff hanger!!! :)
Ngl that Tu-160 “Firebird” concept looks really interesting
A realistic portrayal of a Canada vs Russia for dominance of the Canadian North, something that could happen if America withdrew its "nuclear" umbrella, cool storyline, how much is National Defence worth to the individual Canadian?
Thanks to dat581 for sharing your opinion, not realistic in the context of???? , cause I disagree, for those of us who support RCAF, RCN and CA believe that this scenario is very plausible and has everything to do with Political Will, getting bureaucracy out of the way, and Working with the Arctic Rangers so they could provide real time intelligence. Only pacifists and ignorant environmentalist's would promote Canada as helpless!
If more Canadians thought like this channel we would be an actual country and not a cold weather version of Puerto Rico.....
we canadians are mot worrryie4d punk
Glenn parent
Indeed there are many sheep in Canadian society......
Meanwhile enrought at 90.000 feet and mach 3.2 is the arrow with look down shoot down capability
The mig 25 looks remarkably similar to the avro arrow especially the nose and fuselage
Hi Michael. It is probably more coincidence than stolen design. Anything going that fast during that period would. have a similar look. In this case just looks, the Mig-25 was no Arrow. regards...Virtual
And if we kept it Russian planes would not be a concern damn shame America bent us over and we took it dry
I agree the day that we were let off or let go I should say is the day the USA came over and took all our engineers and paid them top dollars and our scientist so you know where that design went to
Next chapter please and thank you
Please tell me you've notified Dan Ackroyd about making this entire series into a feature film. This must be made
Hi Larry. I don't know if Dan Ackroyd has seen these. I doubt it. The first six Episodes are a movie I suppose. This one and the next set are going to pretty wild. regards....Virtual
@@Virtualenvirons Thanks for the reply, I'm looking forward to seeing the next set!. We should find a way to get the links to him. He may be someone who would like to pick something like this up and run with it based on his involvement in the mini series. I work in the film industry and I'd volunteer to work on this one with no pay!
HI Larry. It is very difficult to contact him. I looked into sending him a link when I first started this, but not possible for me anyway. I thought the place to start would be a literary agent first. I can tell you one problem though. Most of the people in the film industry don't remember the Arrow. It does not mean anything to them. To us, these videos are uplifting, but to a film producer it may be confusing. I would like to take a crack at it though. If you have any thoughts, perhaps we can talk. regards....Virtual
I like it a lot. 400 Million CAN$ in parts. One question are these scenarios taking into account the fact that Prime Minister HARPER SOLD TO THE CHINESE the right to have military forces on Canadian ground in the north? They have bought a gold mine in Nunavut and demands that Chinese troops be there to protect them with the contract signed by Prime Minister HARPER. So lovely.
Frigg'in Conservatives.... bought off little pimps that would sell their mother for a nickel !
Great story. When well Ep8 Be ready.
These take a while to make and it is summer. Also, a lot of research to build the Mark 3. I think the next one will be available in Sept. thanks for watching. regards...Virtual
@@Virtualenvirons TO-RL-206:
Am drooling and on the edge of my seat!
Good luck! Good hunting! Take Care! LLAP!
The 35 can loiter in one spot hide or even a shippin container dropped with fuel and munitions can supply a 35. Now thats pretty smart tool
Hey, I was born and raised in North Bay. Cheers from Canada👍🏹🇨🇦
Hello to North Bay. Thanks for the "shout ou"t and hope you enjoyed the series......regards....Virtual
I think the weapons bay of the Arrow had room for 4 AIM-54 Phoenix, or 4 AIM-120 AMRAAM.
Love the Phoenix, long legs.
The weapons bay has the room for that many AMRAAM's al least. The Phoenix was a larger missile...fatter...regards...Virtual
Imagine as technology advanced they could have replaced the inefficient turbojets with Turbo fans. Imagine it with the F-35's sensor suite plus external hard points for missiles. It could have been a high speed, high endurance missile truck that could have kept Canada safe. It is to bad Canada never got the F-14. It seems like the perfect aircraft fir their mission requirements.
Hi Theokolese.....Good comment. Yes, I was a big fan of the F-14. Although Turbo-fans produce good power, especially low end power and great fuel economy, there is one drawback. Turbo-fans don't process air well much past ~Mach 2.5. Turbo-jets don't have that limitation, hence the change in engines from Mig-25 to the Mig-31. In the next Episode a Iroquois Series 2 will be turned into a Series 3 and a more detailed explanation will come about. Keep up the good work...regards....Virtual
Are the news excerpts part of the fiction or the "fiction" is built around genuine news extracts ?
Hi Benoit. It is just a movie. The first six episodes told a story of who killed the Arrow. The next set of episodes will see the Arrow Mark 3 evolve. regards...Virtual
@@Virtualenvirons Can we please talk more about the Arrow Mk III DM me
I have to wonder if the blueprints we see glimpses of is a Super Arrow, and if it makes its appearance in Episode 8.
The plans you see are the Mark 3 which might have evolved in the early sixties if the program had continued. Recently there have been groups talking about a Super Arrow built from 2020 technology. I will let you extrapolate from those last two statements on what to expect.....but, you will have to wait. regards....Virtual
Its happening...for real ;)
"one ping and one ping only"
OOOHHHHHYES
Bring it back bring it back
Bit of a nitpick, the F-35B is a STOVL, not a VSTOL. VSTOL is Vertical Takeoff Short Landing, STOVL is short takeoff, vertical landing. The F-35B cannot take off vertically, only land.
Hi Max. I have found a lot of info that it can take off vertically, but has to be refuelled almost immediately. Google it and see what you find. regards...Virtual
wow..i knew that mig-31 is a strategic interceptor ( intercepting/killing enemy strategic bombers...like b-2 )....but i had no idea that it could be escort ( escorting bombers on patrol ) and also bombers ( bombing ground targets
...one learn something every day
Hi TheMilo....Only recently has Russia converted the Mig-3 to carry bombs. You can find it on a few sites including Wikipedia. Any jet can be a escort. Often the U.S. escorts with a F-16 and an F-15 together. regards....Virtual
A big loss for CANADA. ,yes I worked there And the day Defenbaker squashed the Arrow and put out 1.,500 people out of work the Black Friday February 20th /1959 ,yes we were on the roof watching the 201 Arrow take off. So so BEAUTIFUL.
Hi Barbara....What did you do at AVRO...regards...Virtual
@@Virtualenvirons Hi. I worked in the blue print. Crib
I hoped you kept a set of plans for yourself.....regards....Virual
@@Virtualenvirons No I didn’t keep any of the plans I wish I had but it was a very upsetting day and it came so suddenly I would never of thought of it
Sorry you had to live through it. Even reading about it sixty years later is upsetting.....regards....Virtual
Actually amazing a world where we grow are balls back
Well said.....regards.....Virtual
Yea you can paint with a mase and then observe the painting
If sweden can build a fighter, why not Canada.
Because Sweden has balls unlike this pissass government even today it's a shambling disaster
Can't wait to see Canada GREAT again! Whatever happened to the Super Arrow fighter jets?
Hi Celso....The Super Arrow concept really never got off the ground. regards....Virtual
@@Virtualenvirons Thanks but sad. Anyway am sure Canada would be having its 6th Gen fighter jets model soon! God Bless Canada!
@@Virtualenvirons Sure it has, www.superarrow.ca/
Regards
Pretty sure the arrow would not keep uo in dog fight in anything made after the 2000 but might have a chance with thrust retiring tech abd speed but would be a great inter enter abs strategic strick bomber not fight
the F35B does not have vertical takeoff capabilities, only landing...
This would be even better if you could read the white on white captioning....
Hi Iota..Yes, I had a few complaints about that. It is a bit of a pain to fix that, but I have done my best for the next episode to mitigate that. Thanks for watching....regards....Vitual
For Canada, vertical take-off is a waste of money and capability.
Hi Raymond....I don't really like the F-35, but if we do buy them, ten or so Vertical take-off versions would give us fighter capability up north. Watch Ep. 7. regards.....Virtual
Another great episode very good job, however I see something that to me looks out of place.
I agree with the Doppler radar detecting the stealthy F-35.
The APG-81 radar of the F-35 is said to have a range in excess of 80 NM the R-37 has a max range of about 220 Nm so everything looks good with the Russian attack plan.
However, the R-37 was designed to attack tankers, AWAC and C41STAR not fighters. At Mach 6 it’s fast enough to catch any fighter and has great range, but the F-35’s should have been able to break radar lock. So assuming the R-37 was fired just outside the F-35 radar range at say 120 nm it now has to cover this distance before hitting the F-35.
With the R-37 closing at Mach 6 if its rocket motor were still running and the F-35 running away at Mach 1.6 that brings the closing speed to Mach 4.4. If the rocket motor was burned out the R-37 would be losing speed giving the F-35 more time to evade the missile.
Remember the R-37 has a range of 220 nm and it has to cover about 120 nm to get to where the F-35 was, giving the R-37 just 100 nm’s to catch the F-35 as it runs directly away from the R-37. The farther the F-35 moves away from the point the R-37 was fired from the slower the missile gets. Also the missile is now going to be getting very close to its max range and losing speed. How much speed would the R-37 lose? I have no idea but it would be much slower the then Mach 4.4 it had with the rocket motor running. This is now starting to favor the F-35 and the final evasive actions.
Missiles are not that great at turning because of the high speeds they travel at with very little in the way of control fins, this makes it easier for a plane to outturn them. Put the missile on your six let it get close start jamming and pull a hard banking turn right and then a hard rolling bank to the left will defeat almost any missile.
Now the pilots are left with the “dealer’s” choice turn and try to find the bad boys or tuck tail and run?
Most pilots are right handed and would turn harder to the left then the right. As the right hand moving to the right it has just a little less strength then the right hand pushing to the left across the body. Allowing the pilot to turn faster and harder to the left.
BRING BACK THE ARROW!!!
Please help me understand the obsession with the Avro Arrow. It is doubtful that the aircraft could have operated as is being described because, for example, the SR71 had to be built mainly out of titanium because of the heating. It flew higher, where the air is even less dense. The Arrow, was to be made out of aluminum. I am sorry, but the MIG 31, F15, SU27, Mig29, F16, F18, F22, F35, Typhoon, Viggen, would have ate it for lunch as they are far new and far more efficient designs. Let alone the difference in avionics which is measured in orders of magnitude.
Hi Agent. The Arrow was designed in the mid fifties. Just before it was to be operational, the Prime Minister got up in Parliament and announced all the planes would be destroyed, all plans destroyed, all assembly lines, jigs and fixtures....destroyed.....therefore creating a legend.
Of course the jets above would defeat the Arrow based on current avionics and weapons, but put those on an Arrow today and you could shorted the list to the F-15 and F-22. There was technology on the Arrow that was not seen again until the arrival of the F-16 and F-18. For example, fly-by-wire with haptic feedback. The Arrow was designed with negative stability in the Y-axis, again not seen until the F-16 and F-18. It was only ever flown with the test engines and even then held under Mach 2, so the new Iroquois engine (twice the power) would obliterate the world speed and altitude records. The Arrow was designed to fight above 50,000 ft. Look at the big wing, it would have been able to hold sustained turns with G's at very high altitudes. The Arrow would have been limited to ~Mach 2.5 due to the air intake inlets. There were variable inlets in the pipeline. I have those designs and have recreated them for the next episode. The variable geometry inlets would have allowed the Arrow to probably attain ~ Mach 2.7. The Arrow had a lot of titanium in it. The SR-71 flew high and fast, but probably never attained the technological status of the Arrow until the 70's.
The Iroquois engines were also ahead of their time. Using only ten compressor sections instead on 17 utilizing a two spool design. This was ground breaking. An engine was taken back to England under great secrecy and emerged as the engine that powered the Concord. You can find that story on this channel....regards.....Virtual
@@Virtualenvirons Thank you, I did not know that. :) Did you know, speaking of similar: There was a proposal, and I think Israel actually built several of these, to re-engine the F-4 Phantom and replace the avionics? The engines selected were a physically smaller version of the PW F100 (from the F15 / F16), with the result being addition fuel storage (I believe). The resulting Phantom had better climb, didn't smoke, much higher endurance (like 30% more), better trans-sonic acceleration, among other things. The cost of the entire retrofit was around $9-10 million per aircraft.
@@AgentPepsi1 No, I did not know that. The F-4 was a fine aircraft. regards...Virtual
Yes indeed, it had titanium of great quality that americans (in all respect) did not know how to produce then.
@@thebrad271 Not only did the Arrow use Titanium, it also used many other strong heat resistant materials as well! Like Magnesium alloys, Steel and even Inconel-X as well, This Inconel material in particular was also later used on the Experimental X-15 Rocket powered aircraft pretty cool eh?
Tu 160/ Tu 95 could destroy that base from over 1000 km away.
Farther than that actually. Problem would be the jet fighters that intercept them in a hot war.. Also this Tu-160 was not carrying any missiles.....so the scenario as it is works. regards....Virtual
Any chance of adding China, as a Russian ally in the next episode.
I had thought about that, but I just could not work that in. Perhaps in a follow on series. thanks. Virtual
is there actual flight data to back any of this? or just wishful thinking. a new fighter is always perfect until you crash a few. and find out what you actually have.
This is not a new fighter. I was designed and then wiped off the face of the earth in 1959. regards...Virtual
@@Virtualenvirons
Thanks
Hi Virtual, I just Came across this new video about the MiG-31 and the R-37. Apparently both are doing much better than expected in Ukraine. The presenter also makes a very brief reference to Canada aswell, but it should leave one to ponder what that connection is. Dare I say the Arrow? It's also a very good analysis of the current airwar over Ukraine: czcams.com/video/-y8KXMq9tqg/video.html
HI Noah, that was a good video, I made a comment. I am assuming you know there are 12 episodes. This video is a few years old.....regards.....Virtual
Note to the Art Department: white text on a white background is a bad idea.
Text should be readable, otherwise, what's the point?
Hi Garfield. Art department here and I suppose 3D animation, 3D CAD reverse engineering, piano arrangements, piano playing, Video composition, sounds, and everything else in the movies. I am one person, close to 70 years old with one Mac and some good software. I do what I can with what I have. regards....Virtual
@@Virtualenvirons Glad I was sitting down when I read that.
The white text on the white background meant I missed some things I wanted to read.
I have been watching your work for hours and my overall reaction is you did a spectacular job!
Your piano playing stood out, you played some very tasty licks there on some of my favorite tunes like "As Time Goes By."
I don't know anything about video editing and such, but am sure I was watching the product of thousands of hours of work.
I am stunned one guy pulled it off.
You deserve some sort of award.
Sometimes with something like this, there are people who pick at historic details or the plausibility of a story, but I'm not one of them. I want something to just enjoy in suspended disbelief.
I want to be entertained and this series is highly entertaining with a unique style.
You have talent, sir, thank you for sharing it with the world!
Hi Garfield. Thanks for the comment. I must make a correction. I play and write some of the arrangements, but the really good stuff recorded in a studio came from my Uncle who passed last year. I can only record on my iPad. But, I thank you for watching. BTW, this is the new channel with the latest Ep 10. regards...Virtual
czcams.com/channels/JAbsrun_K6CCdHXOrrVLng.html
Not bad but the Arrow should be a Mk III or Mk IV armed with Aim 120's or Aim 54's.
Wait for the next Episodes. We have reengineered a Mark 3. The next episode will explain in detail the transformation and more. regards....Virtual
@@Virtualenvirons can't wait
Normally, F-35 will have a short take off and a vertical landing, not a vertical take off.
Yes, but it can take off vertically. I checked that. Seems to be something each pilot needs to work on a bit. regards....Virtual
@@Virtualenvirons yes, but the problem is that with vertical take off, you limit your payload and fuel (not good for combat missions), It was the same with the Harrier.
Hi Tom....Yes, I can see that, although it could take off with low fuel, full missiles and refuel mid air. I would imagine that is the scenario for a vertical take off mission. regards....Virtual
Mig 25 then 31 technology was stolen from Avro Arrow
HI Alan. Perhaps some was simply gleaned from looking at the Arrow, but neither the Mig-25 or 31, structurally is an Arrow. regards. Virtual
@@Virtualenvirons LOL. And just how relevant was the Mig-25 or the 31, for that matter, in future scenarios? Almost non-existent.
@@nwtruckerll Hi NW. How are things? Are you still in the U.S? Don't dismiss the Mig-31 outright. It was never intended to dogfight. The Mig-31 essentially does the role of the Arrow for Russia. Designed to traverse Russia and knock down bombers, AWACS, etc. But, it can launch against fighters and evade using speed or altitude. Speed kills. The newest version though are being made for strike role like the Arrow was to be. Keep in mind that a Mig-31 is faster than a sidewinder as the movie shows. Also, at distance the AMRAAM will slow, especially if it has to climb to 80,000 ft.
The scenario shown here is not fantasy. The technology I have shown has existed for years, just not as this package. It would be useless over Europe or most of North America....but not over the Canadian North......regards.....Virtual
@@Virtualenvirons HI! I'm still in the US. (About 100 yards from the border with White Rock, B.C..) I'm not saying the 31 doesn't have potential use. I am saying it isn't held in the same regard by western AFs as the SU series right up to the 57. We see with Japan's F-3 and Chinese efforts what direction state of the art development is taking us. The 31 wouldn't even get close to an F-35 and it really doesn't matter how fast the 31 is as it wouldn't even know a missile was about to activate it's radar and wipe him out until it was far too late to outrun it.
@@nwtruckerll I suppose we could debate this for years. The scenario presented is quite plausible. This wasn't something we cooked up for the series. A lot of expertise was applied to this scenario.. I worked in the field for a while during my career. My colleague years ago did some experimental work for the U.S. Navy in this area. Anyway, it appears to be a good story. regards...Virtual
I thought the F35B was short take off vertical landing
It can take off vertically, but with a reduced load, fuel. I suppose they would refuel mid air is this situation. regards...Virtual
Virtualenvirons ohhhh, ok I didn’t know that. Most of the vids of f35b’s I’ve seen were them doing short take offs and verticale landings. Thanks for that and nice animations
the nato needs f22 and f23 as soon as ngad is fielded!
A feasibility study should be looked into resurrecting the Avro Arrow and the Canadian Aviation industry, Canada is going to spend Billions with limited return on a US or Swedish fighter purchase with a limited return. Had the Arrow been allowed and continued to grow with research into a 5th or 6th gen aircraft, Canada would have been the top supplier of fighter aircraft to most of our Allied forces.
My opinion.
An opinion shared by many... regards....Virtual
great story , but by todays standard, looks like we all gave the ruskies a bit too much credit, the Ukranians have proved that so far
as much as i love the cf-103, i must say the mig 31 would be just too fast.
Hi Splenid. You must keep something in mind. The Arrow was not affected by its weaponry. It carries missiles internally. The Mig-31 would slow quite a bit with missiles and drop tanks as shown. Clean the Mig-31 is faster as shown, but not by much But, this is only Part !. Keep an eye on this series. regards....Virtual
@@Virtualenvirons sure, love the vids btw
It's too bad that John Diefenbaker had no vision for Canada's technical wonder, the Avro Arrow the most advanced aircraft the world had ever seen. The Americans knew what we had created and played Diefenbaker like a fiddle. They convinced him to destroy everything about the Avro Arrow so they could remain the aeronautical superpower. After the Americans got Diefenbaker to cancel and destroy the world's most sophisticated aircraft and put all Canadian engineers and workers out of a job. The Americans then offered all our brightest and most talented people jobs who later helped NASA put man on the moon. Canada could have sold Avro Arrows to all NATO members countries and we could have developed our own space agency and become a world leader in aeronautics and technology. Prime minister John Diefenbaker was a puppet and Canada paid the price. Black Friday was a day that left Canada in the dark.