Was Baylan The Good Guy in Ahsoka?
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- čas přidán 24. 10. 2023
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We take a look at Baylan Skoll the misunderstood antagonist from the Ahsoka Series. What motivates him, what is his intent and what is driving him and does it all make him a force for good?
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“I am bad, and that is good. I will never be good, and that’s not bad. There’s no one I’d rather be than me”
-Baylan Skoll, probably
Baylan Skoll is the epitome of the conflict of good versus evil in all of us. As he stated to Ashoka, I’m here to protect the future. He is willing to exact evil if necessary to obtain the balance in the Force and sequentially the Galaxy. One thing is for sure, Baylan Skoll and Shin Hati will be popular cosplay at the next convention!
Ray Stevenson in Rome: plays our hero, a rapist who murders slaves out of jealousy, gets paid to assassinate politicians hostile to his power-hungry employers, and torturously keeps a man as a ‘pet’ after biting out his tongue.
Ray Stevenson in Ahsoka: Plays a villain who honourably keeps his word, even to captured and powerless enemies, and allows his apprentice to follow her own path rather than selfishly dragging her down his.
Legend of an actor
And ruthlessly executes an entire ship of new republic soldiers he tricked into believing he was a Jedi. It’s hard to tell if he’s the good guy until we know what his mission is. By aligning himself with witches of Dathomir, and Thrawn at the outset, it’s questionable without knowing his endgame…
This man stole the show from Ashoka and Thrawn.
Agreed
@@kingorange7739 Hayden Christensen as well.
He may not be the good guy but he was by far the best character in the story.
@@janoslambert-cannon7146 exacty
@@chasehedges6775 true enough.
The curious thing about Baylan is that the whole speech, everything is inevitable, does not come from Thanos, it comes from Hayao Miyazaki like the kingdom of dreams and madness.
I don't know what Filoni has in mind for the series, but within an apparent superficiality or triviality, he has left sentences and situations to be able to delve deeper into complex issues. Not just Baylan, also Ahsoka, and especially with Sabine.
This is why the orange Lightsaber is such a good representative oh his personality, He is not Good but neither he is evil, he is the perfect representation of in the grey zone and that makes him an intriguing character to follow.
A dark grey
@@jonmcmurray9510possibly but a grey area is already between white and black, good and evil. So him already being a morally grey character means he is in the light and in the dark but he does not choose a side
Mmm I’d argue that slaughtering a ship full of people to breakout a criminal war lord warrants you being called evil
@@nandoman4769 He took out the guards that were shooting him. We didn't see him swatting radar techs or other such personnel.
@@orokusaki1243 lmao he ordered his padawan to do that.
"Just because you're a bad guy doesn't mean you're a bad guy." - some Russian wrestler dude probably
MUSCLE 💪💪💪!
- Zangeif
Roddy Piper
"antagonist is not a synonym for villain"
He's just trying to bring peace, justice, and security to the galaxy
Having an “anti-villain” character is interesting to have
That's good, I haven't heard "anti-villain" before. It makes sense, though, we have plenty of anti-heroes out there.
@devenscience8894
I look at Victor Von Doom as an Anti Villain
Same with the character Ethan Nakamora from the book series Percy Jackson and the Olympians.
As a Russian whose parents saw the fall of the Soviet Union and who himself hoped to live in a civilized Western-like society but later saw 2014 and 2022, I understand Baylan Skoll very, very much.
That's cool. So, is he headed for greatness or infamy? I'm still not sure.
It's easy to sympathize with baylan.
dude he's a space communist
@@abeautifuldayful it depends on his true motivation which is now kept vague. However, the final shots with majestic Gods of Mortis statues hint at greatness.
@@farseer2043 Or great infamy? And if Anakin becomes the Father, will he become the Son and Ahsoka the Daughter? Unless the three Gods morph into One? Okay, I made up the One, but that's how vague it's still kept for me.
Countless stories have been told from the perspective of the bad guys - they're still people with hopes and needs, living their lives the best that they can in the face of the uncertainty we all face.
Baylan certainly appreciates people and cares, and seems to only kill those who get in the way of his goals/mission. Sounds like an honorable warrior, who understands that should he need to eliminate people, it should be minimal. In comparison to wars, the amount of pain and suffering he causes is a drop in the ocean.
Baylan is seriously one of my new favorites in all of Star Wars. Awesome character all around.
I can only see liev schreiber replacing Ray Stevenson.
He was certainly the most sympathetic one in the show
Baylon understands that life is gray and any extremes will kill you. If he didn’t feel that getting to peridia was more important than life itself, he would never have been tied up with Morgan or helped her free Thrawn. Shin Hati is going to struggle with the want for power vs what Baylon taught her, her entire life. I think Ashoka will be able to pick her up after she hits rock bottom.
i am saddened by the actors death, he absolutely nailed his role. Baylan is a great character.
I love when Star Wars, and stories in general, delve into shades of grey. It makes things more interesting. Someone doing bad things for good reasons I find more compelling than someone doing bad for bad's sake.
Everyone is a hero in his or her own story. Ultimately, it comes down to what is calling out to Baylan.
The thing about Baylan that should be found most frightening, is that he believes the ends justify the means.
And so did Sidious…
he's an Anti-Hero in my opinion, as he does not actually want to eliminate Soka. he seeks something higher and wants Shin (probably his daughter) to be destined for something greater as he himself put it.
i think he wants to attain the power of the Father, with Shin becoming the Daughter. he would've probably also tried to bring back his dead wife who was probably taken out by Thrawn. and while doing so. i could see her becoming Abeloth. (this was all canned when ray died. or i think so)
Vader is a Villian. Baylan is an Anti-Hero
Good points. But if he truly know what Abeloth is and set her lose on the galaxy anyway he is definitely a villain.
Its hard to tell if he is the good guy but what i can say was that he was a good charcter compared to everybody else. Shame they didnt use him atall in the finale along with Shin.
We don't know his goals, not really. We have to wait. But I am willing to bet that it falls within less savory means
I really enjoy your content man. The real life historical and societal comparisons are educational and thought provoking.
Thanks for exploring the motivations and philosophy of Baylan Skoll. He's one of the best written characters in the new Canon I have come across. Hope future stories explore his character arc.
That’s why I like him. He sort of like magneto. Trying to do the right thing but doing it in the “wrong way”
Fantastic video. Great insight.
Your videos provide some great insights!
In the eyes of most religions and cultures, Baylan would just be classified as a mercenary with an agenda, based on what we've seen. He's had some flowery words about undoing the cycle of violence, but most of what he's done is just kill shit for his employers or further their agenda while furthering his own. They'd probably see him in the same vein as some mercenary in the Renaissance who has his own plans for power.
Can one be blamed for wanting to acquire the power to reshape an entire galaxy to truly be at peace, and perhaps also bring prosperity and liberty? End fear, tyranny, corruption, and incompetence? Is it possible for one to be so righteous, honorable, and balanced?
Palps wanted to rule and dominate. Mothma wanted to share rulership and bargain.
Though, if what Baylan seeks is that powerful, and if he's not worthy or able to control that power, he will certainly succumb and furthermore doom the whole galaxy.
Reshaping the galaxy with power to be at peace is tyranny by definition. There's always going to be rebels to put down when free will is involved.
Peace through absolute power is tyranny.
Who knows, he was written as a mystery box. I doubt Dave even knows what wants him to be yet
I never really felt compelled to watch the Ahsoka series, now I wasn't against it I figured I'd get around to it at some point in the next 10 to 20 years.
Then curtosey of several CZcamsrs I learned Thrawn was in it I really enjoyed reading the heir to the empire series so that got my attention. Hmm lets make some time in the next few months to check this out. Then videos about Baylin Skal and his apprentice came out and I started to be careful in what I watched to make sure I didn't spoil anything good. And that really built up a bunch of mystery and I couldn't take it anymore and decided I HAD to watch it right then.
I watched it to see what Baylan Skoll, Shin Hati,Grand Admiral Thrawn and Captain Enoch would do and what adventures/misadventures they'd get into. And I only hope there is a season 2 to learn what happens to them. And if there isn't then I atleast hope SOMETHING gets made because the characters of Baylan Skoll and Shin Hati have so much work put into them and a compelling story for them it would be a huge waste for them to only be in 1 8 episode season. I feel like if properly handled they could have thier own show.
Nah, his last shot made clear that looking for the greatest balance Baylan has lost the ligth (there you have the Father and the Son, but not the Daughter). His intentions perhaps sound reasonable, but what urges him it is a clear death wish, like some kind of proto Kylo Ren. Baylan is basically reverse Qui Gon
There is only one other CZcamsr I've actually respect for I'm surprised honestly I didn't think I would have respect for anybody doing what you do but I do have great respect for you thank you for your work
Everyone is the Hero of their own story, especially the villain.
Anti-hero’s prolly a fitting description
I am not one for fluff. I am a big Star Wars fan tho, and I have to say I love your analysis. Especially how you tie it in with the real world and current events, while still doing an excellent analysis of the Star Wars events you discuss. Whether you're right or wrong about the characters or plot is besides the point. Your insights and presentation are superb. My compliments. I never subscribe to channels like this (although I sometimes watch them, obviously), but I am subscribing. ✌️ Keep doing what you're doing. This is the 2nd video of yours I have watched, and liked the other one even more... and I love this one.
I’m reminded of that very profound quote by an author I now forget: “A necessary evil is no less evil because it is necessary, and no less necessary because it is evil”.
Baylan said “like your masters “ meaning not just anakin. So if it’s true of Ashoka then that’s the truth of his baylans masters as well.
“A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack.”
You know Sidious and Vader was securing the future, just good guy things.
11:40 What if he doesn’t care about Thrawn or their goals, but they heard the Witch was seeking to go to another galaxy, and that’s why he went along with the whole thing, to get to that greater power that he’s after.
Sure, Skoll is a sympathetic villain, but a villain nontheless. The "the ends justify the means" is the closest 'objective' definition of 'evil' that we have. He didn't need to massacre the crew of that cruiser to rescue Elspeth. Just because he is sympathetic and nice to his padawan, or regrets having to fight Ashoka, does not make him a good guy. Even the "one-balled dictator" was kind to dogs...
IMO, he is an antagonist in the story, not a villain.
@@travcollier I mean, I agree, but that's mainly semantics.
@@Klijpo The words themselves have clearly different meanings, it is not just semantics.
It's like a debate. Ahsoka is on one team and Baylan is on the other. Neither are villains, but they are antagonistic towards each other (a simple example being siblings competing for something). Ahsoka wants to get that map and Baylan stands in the way of her goal (get the star map), just as she is standing in the way of his goal (defend the star map and get on the ship to Peridea). (And really..they left the map orb, which was unnecessary, they could have sent it off somewhere else..)
Notice on the republic ship, that his first attempt was diplomatic, and it was the captain standing in his way which forced him to switch to "aggressive negotiations". The mission simply being "liberate Elsbeth", he eliminated the hostiles and completed his mission. A rebel infiltrator, or Jedi would do the same thing.
What pushes him out of the villain circle is that he isn't showing maliciousness, or evil. The lightsaber color is probably just an orange herring. Just like Jedi invading and chopping up Geonosian defenders on their home world, both are trying to accomplish a mission and these beings are trying to prevent that mission's success. (Obi-wan was the only captive, until Anakin and Padme got caught, and then 183 Jedi died trying to rescue them. Some trade-off. Thrawn would've have found those losses acceptable, while others might have questioned the morality of the Jedi leadership.)
@@Klijpo Yeah, but when you dig into the semantic differences between antagonists and villains, you get into interesting stuff. Antagonists can be downright heroic, they just are in the way of the protagonists.
It would be cool to see this series from Baylan's POV shot as if he was the protagonist. I'm sure there has to have been a film or series of some sort done where it is told as two interweaving stories where the roles of antagonist and protagonist flip back and forth.
The Jedi had no problems hewing through swathes of imperials and separatists if they stood between them and their goals, arrogantly self-assured that they were inviolably good, and that their ends justified their means. How are they any different?
Baylan, the Fallen Jedi, is a very interesting character. What did this former General for the Republic actually do to survive the Jedi Purge? He hasn't completely turned to the dark side but he seems to be affected by it.
His actions move the story forward but we're never made clear what he's searching for. Is he seeking knowledge or just simply power?
"Hard work pays off. Dreams come true. Bad times don't last, but bad guys do."
He's not evil like Dooku, Vader or the Senate is but still a bad dude nevertheless.
💯💯💯
"So I threw The Senate at him!"
A compelling antagonist *should* be relatable and hold up a mirror to the protagonist. They *should* believe that theirs is a righteous cause, even though it's at odds with the goals of the hero. Baylan certainly filled that role perfectly. Kudos to Filoni for understanding that so well and making some excellent content in this series. Not perfect, but certainly competent.
Short answer: No, he's not "the good guy in Ahsoka". He's definitely "the good guy" in his own story (aren't we all?) but still directly does terrible things and indirectly sets terrible things in motion in his misguided self-righteousness. He's a snapshot of Dooku before his complete fall to the dark side, idealistic but flawed, tainted by the specific circumstances of his experience and tunnel-visioned by the scope of his world view. His desire for power is what keeps him from using his abilities in a more philanthropic way. His arrogance is exposed in his contention that he is the only one who can secure the future of the galaxy, instead of working together with others to do it in a more cooperative way.
The way your describing him, is the way the original JEDI worked with the light and the dark in balance.
hey alen might have a video idea what if the death star test fire at jedda city fail and the super weapon didn't work what would the following events have been
Baylans costume looks cool, reminds me of lukes black hooded look from last jedi
“a complicated and well created character”
Humans can never be either, they are a combination of both.
Only the Sith deal in absolutes.
@@bryanwilkens Jedi deal in absolutes as well, they are strictly forbidden to use the dark side, thus, they inadvertently betray their own sayings.
I thought this was Generation Allen and your name was Tech.
Baylen is frustrated by the dichotomies inherent in the universe: Jedi vs Sith, freedom vs order, democracy vs authoritarianism, love and trust vs hate and fear. He is frustrated because the Star Wars Galaxy never seems to move past these dichotomies into a new synthesis. The galaxy has been stuck for thousands of years.
He's decided that the problem is the existence of dichotomies. He seeks to return to the beginning and sweep the old dichotomies away.
He's wrong, of course. Dichotomies are hard to avoid. The alternatives are a monolith of ideology (appropriate that he ends the series standing on a monolith) or a multiplicity of ideologies (sounds nuanced and sophisticated at first glance, but can quickly become anarchic if taken as the base of your new reality).
The solution is to help the galaxy move on from the conflicts it's been stuck in. The characters in this show are uniquely positioned to do this. Ahsoka left the Jedi order, not embracing the Sith darkness, but no longer walking completely in the light. Anakin walked both paths and now as a force ghost seems comfortable drawing from both. Sabine has walked as a Mandalorian and Jedi. Her breakthroughs have all come when she embraces all aspects of her training.
I don't know what that new reality looks like. The conflicts in Star Wars resemble the dichotomies in our own world. But I hope that future episodes, seasons, and shows explore how the Star Wars galaxy, and our own world, can move on from the conflicts we are all stuck in.
I'm surprised you didn't mention the Bengal famine in the WW2 things the allies did.
After finding "Abaloth", Baylen will be "corrupted", mutated into the hulking form that would become known as Snoke. His bodies flesh would be sought and cloned by the Sith for a vessel capable of holding Palpatines dark energy.
Alan keeps professing his allegiance to democracy, but Creamy Sheev also told us something similar. Starting to sense a connection...
I wonder how much they filmed of season 2 , I hope they got some of ray stevensons shots, or they are most likely rotated the ark due to his absence in the finale, I think they did have to rewrite their season one ark shin as well , I am one who thinks he should be recast not a I , the actor who takes over will be honored
I think that one of Ahsoka's teachers was Myamoto Musashi.
It's a wonder no one built up a large Resistance-like militia force and went after all the Imperial Remnants themselves, after all, they had just been rebels, and the legitimacy of the New Republic's authority was questionable at best.
Another brilliant piece my friend. Now where is the video we all want to see????….”choomchoom and Wally a Ewok and wookie buddy cop tale
Much like Baylan, Saw Gerrera had a worthy cause... I guess that makes him another good guy.
Im going to miss him.
Now, the sith HAVE been said to be purely evil...just different levels of it. Great Jedi are what Baylon is and Asoka are, just different lvls
A lot of people don’t know that Stalin actually reached out to Hitler and asked on several occasions to become allies.
I think Baylon is simply trying to figure out who the fuck is manipulating him through the force, Because he definitely knows somebody is
Yo champ did you ever realize that Captain Rex ever only called snips by her first name one time in the entire clone wars and do you remember what episode it was!! Trivia question if you get this soon got 2 minutes to answer without looking back !!
Whats the difference between their padawan and master blades?
Rip Ray Stevenson, thank you for the great performance
The pre-empire Republic was also a bureaucratic mess where nothing could get done. That was a pretty major sub-plot in the prequels. A galaxy wide government with thousands of sentators and trillions of citizens would be a nightmare to manage. Makes a little anarchy in the outer rim seem appealing.
Just a simple man trying make his way through this galaxy
He’s just a guy, a ‘chad’ if you will
Baylan Skol gives off Thanos-vibes with his grandiose vision of remaking the universe from scratch while on the surface appearing to be chivalrous and honorable...but if you dig deep down into what his vision seems to be...you realize he's no better than someone like Palpatine. Possibly worse. Palpatine wanted to control the galaxy, whereas Thanos (and in my theory, Baylan) want to control-alt-delete all of reality and start over from scratch. Countless lives ended or irreversibly changed by the snap of a finger.
Life eats life is not evil. And the rise and fall of nations is depending on social cohesion just as Ibn Khaldun has seen during his lifetime.
Baylan makes me think of an older Jacen Solo if he didnt take the sith path
Baylan cares not for whether or not Thrawn makes it back or not. He needed to get to Peridia. Aiding Elsbeth was his one way ticket. Just a means to his end
I believe people like him are called "Antiheroes".
This is what Star Wars is lacking and needed. It never managed to do it in the movies, this duality of good vs evil with no in between always bothered me. You're either good or you're evil, there's no gray area.
It was sometimes presented well in the animated shows with some characters but was never fully explored.
As far as I know the only times something similar was done quite well was in the games like the recent Jedi Survivor and also more importantly KOTOR & SWTOR
When the rebels blew up the death star some people on that station were not evil and we're decent people and they all died...and in the eyes of some people in the galaxy or imperials that was an act of terrorism...it's not all black and white no matter how much new hope paints the canvas in front of us....
Sure, there are shades of grey, but Baelen knows what the empire is. They killed everyone he ever loved and destroyed the jedi order. That he'd side with them and help them start another war for domination after seeing what they were does make him evil, obvectively. He can't plead ignorance, he lived through their rule. He's helping them so that he can chase a Jedi fairytale, and that'll probably end up being just another evil he serves.
I always saw Star Wars as a Inherently black and white story.
And I still do, to extent at least when it comes to the force.
I don’t think Baylan and Shin should have red lightsabers. Because I’m pretty sure in the current Canon you have to bleed the lightsabers to make them red, and they don’t seem like the kind of people to do that. I would think they would see that as a Sith thing and not want to do it.
To be fair
Baylan Skoll is a mix between Zaheer from The Legend of Korra with a less insane Thanos
I really thought the sponsor was going to be "butcher box" or some such with that intro.
Wait wait wait
Baylon is a modern-day Kreia. Think about it, you basically said it yourself, he wishes for an end to suffering by both sides, the Light and the Dark, he correctly sees the New Republic for the corrupt state that it is and wishes for peace and order, its borderline Kreia-esque philosophy, carving out your own path, not committing to either side, using the Force as simply a means to an end without letting it corrupt your desire for peace and order into a lust for power
You are falling into a trap. Baylan is the Operative (Serenity) of this universe. He believes he is doing something righteous that will remove him and the order from the universe, but it’s all selfish motivation. Even if we don’t align good/evil but right and wrong, he will still be on the wrong side, and he knows this. This world he marches to isn’t meant for him, and he just wants to burn everything with him. At least, that is my impression. Hence why he doesn’t care if the empire comes back. If his goal succeeds, it won’t matter, for there will be no place for it, either.
That should scare you.
That's an excellent take. I was getting Operative vibes from him. Such a great character.
Then it would make sense for him to release Abeloth on the galaxy. She is something close to a god of chaos, change and destruction.
He will open the door for another.
A good guy with their skills did not need to kill everyone to rescue their prisoner. What is the deciding line between good and bad ??
Yeah I feel Baylan is in his own right not evil.
👍
Unnecessary suffering. . Is what I'd call evil.
Just when wonder if there's real evil just self interest. Youder actions that make wonder what did they have to gane. What what about when a cat or an orca actually a type of dolphin don't eat their prey and and cut them up make suffer when could give the killing blow the hole time
You should’ve quoted section 13 from The Genealogy of Morals by Nietzsche. Birds of prey and lambs. Interpretations.
I still think he's in a crossover with Star Trek V.
For Balen to succeed and the wonderful Ray Stevenson RIP morph into another actor as the power he seeks can morph people and time. This explains cgi Leia, New Hope rip off ep 7, all a Dallasesq lucid dream. Whole sequel fiasco explained. Then someone switches off Balens power???? For other seasons to continue. Maybe the Boba Fett scooter gang can accidently bump into it as they try to avoid it in a long scene that feels so slow.
As said by the Jedi Downfall legend "Good is Only A Point Of View"
The new Republic does feel like a newly established government I feel like they are doing a good job with that
I hate that Disney has destroyed the SW fan base so badly that many didn't see the new direction that Filoni has taken SW to by using elements of the EU and is creating something so different and exciting that it would be nice to see where it goes. Gilroy, Favreau and Filoni are working together, rumored, to give us SW like we have never seen it and I hope that Disney falls on its face so badly that they will sell off Lucasfilm to George or someone like him who will honor SW.
Like Count Dooku?
Baylan = balance = grey = doomed.
He's some good, some bad, a bit of both.
The father could still be alive since he was stabbed by just a lightsaber too like the son
By intent or happenstance the result is predictably the same.