2-Gun With New US Army Weapons: SIG Spear and M17
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- čas přidán 9. 06. 2024
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Yesterday we looked at the new SIG Spear/M5 in detail, and today I'm taking it out to a 2-Gun match to try on the clock. The most suitable pistol pairing would naturally be the other recently-adopted new US Army weapon, the M17 pistol (in this case, a commercial M17).
The Spear/M5 is a really great rifle to shoot. It's soft-shooting (granted, with the down-loaded training ammo) and very accurate. The suppressor is effective and doesn't cause any gas blowback into my face whatsoever. That said, it is also both heavy and specifically front heavy. Is it the right choice for today's US Army? I don't know; time will tell. Personally, I think I can say I would rather have the M5 than an HK 416...but I'd rather have a modernized (lightweight) M16A1 than either of them.
As for the M17, my troubles hitting with it were me, not the pistol. The pistol shooting requirements in this match were particularly challenging, and I wasn't quite up to them. The repeated failures to go fully into battery were annoying, though.
Thanks to Illumined Arms for the loan of the rifle!
Contact:
Forgotten Weapons
6281 N. Oracle 36270
Tucson, AZ 85740
All moustache, no sleeves.
All business, all the time.
You think if he shaves he’ll have mustache tan lines?
gigachad
It's Arizona! Nice dry heat, for now. Soon our monsoon kicks in and it'll put that 90/90 to shame. 115°f (46c) temperature with a 65° (19c) dew point and 50%+ humidity.
Ian lives in southern Arizona so it's a bit cooler than around me. We can top out 120f or 49c, so he'd be a few degrees lower than here.
Plus, Ian is a ham on camera. He's a riot to watch at times!
High speed low drag
Ian needs to be a unlockble character in a game that explains every gun you pick up.
The game would have the most bizarre line-up of weapons - the shotgun would be a single-shot model with an Alofs adapter and the SMG would be a French folding model.
Luty…
Hell no. I don’t wanna have to hear “MoRe mOdErn aR15” everytime i pick up an AK.
And says random French facts
@@AshleyPomeroy WHERE are all of the new games with wacky weird shit like this. I would LOVE a game with an Alofs-modded shotgun or a Hotchkiss Portative.
I just love how Ian's "Modern" US Army loadout is just Desert Storm kit.
@@bahshas cool.
@@bahshas very cool
@@bahshas o
Po
Desert Storm Kit with modern firearms
He did it all for the cookie.
“What do you normally wear to the range?”
“A flak vest”
“And??”
“……and….?”
"And these SICK PYTHONS"
UHMHM ITZ ""FLAK""
@@videoarchiveseries4365 LOLLL dudes wearing a vest made from a grain apparently. Didn’t even notice until now
Fresh white Reeboks, kickin your ass!
yeah google image that, i dare you
A gun being handed off to multiple people that take extremely variable care of that gun. Well excellent real world military test environment. Two thumbs up!
This made me chortle
@@jagdal8503 Same. 😂
“It would have been better if I was a better pistol shot”. We have all been there. LOL The rest of us just don’t have to show it on their super huge YT channel. LOL Good on you Ian. You always keep it real.
My 12 year old daughter is a better pistol shooter than me 25 yards and beyond . True story , I pretend not to be embarrassed by it .
@@kevmoful that embarrassment is easily glossed over by Daddy's pride in his awesome daughter! Been there!
@@kevmoful Well, you’re not alone; my son is a better shot than me; I think it paid off to begin his shooting at 4 years old; he’s now 32 though.
wow the sig p320/m17 is garbage with those malfunctions. army should have chosen the m&p 2.0
@@cagneybillingsley2165 he said it was a new gun so maybe it just needed to be broken in(could also be the ammo).
Like I've said before, Ian puts a new meaning to "I love my job". Love the channel. Keep doing what you're doing!
“Best job I ever had”
who wouldnt love that job lol
For real, he's genuine and super knowledgeable. plus gives great information and tons of history, he's definitely "the gun guy"
@@TechandTools1 that's why we call him "Gun Jesus"
@@Trumplican che non possa
Ian "sun's out, guns out" McCollum.
I see Ian brought tickets for the GUN SHOW 💪💪
Out there doing a 2-gun with four guns.
@@Stevie-J suns out tums out
Sort of.
*bought
he doesn’t need tickets, he’s the whole expo
"I am so use to, as a left hander, just having eye watering propellant gas coming out the ejection port.. it was really cool not to." I love that comment and feel for you lefties!
As a lefty, I appreciate that. It's not as rough as one might expect, though. For example, a friend expected me to be unable to shoot his Tavor (a bullpup) due to brass ejecting into my face. Not so; it comes out in front of and below my face. An AK almost seems like it was made for us, as the charging handle can be operated actually easier than if it was on the other side. We lefties have workarounds for just about everything. Some magazine releases are a problem.
I wish PWS would make a side charging AR.....that would be awesome for lefties, as it’s basically a no gas to the face design as well.
@@ericschumacher5189 again as a lefty, the charging handle is my biggest gripe about the AR. Not that I think it's a whole lot better for righties. It's a bad design choice.
@@reliantncc1864 Thankfully, there are plenty of side-charging options out there.
No lie that being the Spear that's been on many YT channels makes it desirable to a certain kind of collector...
Needs its own silver play button stamp on the receiver.
I'd love that slutty gat.
However i'm not willing to part with a kidney or pick up reloading a weird caliber. Still cool as heck.
@@MenwithHill I think that rifle's view count might have earned it a Gold one already
In a hundred years, if the rifle survives, it'll become a legendary item.
It would go from about the current Sig Sauer Msrp of $7k to about $18k for just being all over CZcams!
I’m loving the rifle and pistol from the 2020s and the holster and body armor from the 1990s
Actually, that Armor was used until 2003 so first 2 years of the Iraq and Afghanistan enduring freedom in act one.
Well 90s military gear is very good to look at.
Fashion statement
Ian rocking that chocolate chip camo vest and PASGT helmet. Outdated but epic
Military vintage as it were
it might be outdated, but to me it still aesthethic as hell especially with the Woodland or the Choco Chip camo
I rocked this camo in Desert Storm. Hooahh
fashion is cyclic
@@danscott3880 I saw a vest cover of that color at a thrift store once, same day I found an original Vietnam era uniform.
Slide not going full battery is caused by the recoil rod spring not pretensioned at full extension. No matter how strong the spring is, if the tension is not there at full extension, it will not help seat into full battery, only relying on the momentum of the slide, which is not enough to overcome all the friction in the gun, and ammo against the ramp.
Same issue was on Mossberg MC1sc, simply swapping to a better (same strength) pretensioned aftermarket slide spring solved it 100%.
bro is the gun governess
Is that a common issue with p320s?
I suspect it's common, had the same malfunctions with my issued M17 out of the box. They replaced the recoil spring, but I changed units before I could see if that fixed it.
@@joemontgomery6658 it can be with ANY gun? Many cheap Glock springs kits, Mossberg MC1sc initialproduction, etc. have that issue.
Interesting, I've not had a single malfunction through thousands of rounds on my SP2022. I'm unsure what significant changes sig made to the design to have this issue with the P320's. I'm wondering if too thick of a wire gauge size was used for the spring.
A gun so heavy, even shirts are removed to save weight.
I mean, I'd still take the Spear over a FN FAL...
@@LazyLifeIFreak The Fal is actually 2 pounds lighter than this, fully loaded.
@@skm1091 You blind? I said I'd still take the Spear over the Fal, I know its heavier and Id still take it.
@@LazyLifeIFreak Eyeglasses removed to save weight.
@@LazyLifeIFreak I'd take the FAL, personally.
Praise worthy, for $70!The only issue was the round gasket ring seal between the CO2 and needle czcams.com/users/postUgkxnX9wE_Q8zvF75Y5iWzTU3Q4FlrtyGApQ . Withered away, and I'm having a tough time finding a replacement.Gun still works perfectly, but needs a new gasket. Can someone please say where to find the gasket replacement?
I like how his gear is from the Cold War and his guns are from the Cold War Part Deux.
with those pale upper arms, he looks like he just arrived in Southeast Asia a few days ago.
@@bahshas Whatever you say Vlad...or is it Xi? Kim? Mahmoud? I can't keep all y'all's usernames straight on the Internet.
@@bahshas tell that to the Ukrainian population and see what happens mr tough guy
@justforever96 the Soviet Union hadn't fallen yet, and were still an ally of Saddam.
The m17 with its basic issued iron sights is miserable. They clearly intended for every handgun to have a red dot (sig); I don't think the military will make that happen any time soon.
Have to shoot at least 200 rounds through them to break them in. It is quite often with new out of box M17/M18 having issue going into battery or dove piping. After 200 rds, give it a good clean and lube, it will then perform at the level it was designed to.
considering that sidearms are basically never used outside of spec ops, and they can acquire their own red dot, I don't think it's that big of a deal
@@AmazonWebService98 still a valid point nonetheless.. I definitely wouldn’t want a gun that my life depends on to need a “break in” period. Garbage QA
@@DelGTAGrndrs yeah I was wondering what the deal with all those malfunctions was.
Shame you can't throw on some Trijicon Bright and Toughs. That's what I have on my P320, and they are pretty nice to shoot with.
I love the bare arms and way too big flak vest. It’s so tactical try hard it’s perfect.
That's a lot of malfunctions with that Sig.
That's what I was thinking. I'd be curious to hear more about that.
Probobly a lemon
Enjoy the honesty on your ability, no glossing over or edits.
Great respect for your content Ian.
Can we appreciate how hilariously mismatched the guns are with the vest and helmet?
I really like this new approach of narrating your match/range videos! For those of us that unfortunately can't do this kind of stuff ourselves it's difficult to know what we're watching, and the commentary helps a lot.
Damn! Ian you gone need a special permit for those two guns! And I'm not talking about rifles.
Ian saying "Garandthumb" is perhaps the only time we'll ever hear him pronounce "Garand" *that* way.
Ian can do pretty well with a 115 year old pistol with sights that are vestigial at best. With a modern pistol with very good sights, not so much.
And yes wearing armor in the desert really sucks, that is why I invested in plate carriers. Props for wearing your helmet, I never wore mine even when being shot at.
Yeah but probably a 115 year old french pistol so that makes all the difference
Man, helmets are not that bad.
Love the narration over the 2gun really lends to your actually thoughts
I really hope, Ian has adequate sun protection.
Enemies come and go, fatigue is a constant threat.
lmao I was just typing this comment. Stay screened up brothers
I think that as someone who lives in Arizona Ian has long ago learned the importance of sunscreen.
Green ACH, Chocolate Chip, no sleeves, moustsche, hater-blockers and a well traveled rifle?
#DesertStormWave
Oh yeah, and cannot wait to get my hands one of those Spears.
thats a pasgt bro, cant get more 90s than that
@@eyeamstrongest The only thing missing is the chocolate chip helmet cover. I think Sportsman's Guide has 3 packs for cheap...
Wish there were matches like this around here. Looks hella fun
It seemed like Ian had a bit of tire melt onto his can on the first stage. I hope widespread supressed rifle adoption will help improve the supressor cover market. I haven't been a big fan of the ones I've tried
I was wondering where that rubber burn on came from in the break down video. Nice spot.
You should make a playlist of all your competition shoots, love watching these
Suns out guns out.
My p365xl was having the same malfunctions, about one or two per mag. About a hour of hand fitting and polishing later and it runs 100%. I also had to do the same thing to my friends as they are both in the same serial number range with the same issues.
Jake
9:52 Ian had some incoming ricochet there
Love the color on the rifle. It reminds me of the PlayStation 2 "gold" controllers
It’s fun to watch lan doing these matches it reminds me that I’m in trouble shape.
What a fun course of fire. Ive shot a few club shoots in the USA and each and every one was a real treat. Always a warm welcome for Brit shooters.
Ian you are a true competitor and kudos for showing us some great and some not so great shooting. Few watching this could do as well. Myself included!
Respect for getting out there and doing that, miss or no miss!
Remember, guys, He sweated for our entertainment! And a measure of empirical testing. Amen.
So nice to see, despite being the new undisputed encyclopedia of guns, Ian puts himself on the line and humbly admits to his shortcomings on the range.
This only makes for more awesome. I envy the people that share the competitions with him, something to tell the grandson one day.
It all comes down to the military issue ammunition. Whether it is really that much better than 7.62 NATO and whether US will ever go against near peer enemies.
"It's better to be the warrior in the garden, than a gardener in the war." It sounds like what the US is going for.
Well, from the war in Ukraine, Russia clearly isn't much of a concern. China hasn't really done much with body armor, they mainly focus on armoured vehicles, aircraft, and naval vessels. Their infantry are pretty basic, with the only really modern innovation is their rifle, which uses a 5.8x42mm cartridge. Other than those two, there really isn't an actual near peer nation that the US would ever face. Iran is nowhere close to the US in military strength or capability.
I feel like an upgraded 7.62 nato and an improved ar-10 would accomplish everything they were looking for with this.
@@62jape the 6.8x51 is basically an improved battle rifle round comparable to 7.62x51 , and the xm5/spear is basically an improved ar-10. So there you have it. at the end the army is doing right
@@My-Name-Isnt-Important China is currently acquiring a crap ton of Lv III ballistic armor. 5.56x45mm won't defeat it reliably without resorting to AP ammo, while 6.8x51mm can penetrate it without AP.
Very professional and interesting review 👏
Yo, ian mc-fucken-collum is absolutely JACKED
Surprising how many malfunctions that pistol was having. Did not inspire confidence.
The real indictment came when Ian described the M17 as "basically, new out-of-the-box."
I've found the 320 often needs a break in period. Once you run it through its paces its perfectly fine. I also recently bought some really crappy ammo. There is always crappy ammo out there.
@@kabloosh699 military pistols should just be able to eat anything
@@macoppy6571 I heard 3 or 4 years ago the m17 was going to be phased in as the marine corps standard sidearm but knowing how certain weapons are pushed for bias reasons and certain budget projections they may have cranked out the next in line failure. The M27IAR seems promising however despite the lack if 200 round boxes
@@stephen9564 That's not true, military pistols should just be able to eat any "military grade ammo".
Civilian cheap cartridge can really be worse than military cartridge.
75 years from now, a Holo 3D Gun Jesus will be going back to look at an ancient 2D video showing SIG Spear from 2022. He'll also have a rifle on display while at some rifle museum and talk on how it held up in military service, it's production, etc.
Mad respect for showing us your skills. Keep up the good work!
Super cool that this one rifle is getting the rounds with so many toobers.
I’ve never seen a three tier falling plate rack. Very interesting.
It's interesting, the issue with the slide you are having looks similar to what I have found for myself with my glock 19x...i tend to get my grip juuuuuust a bit too high/support hand pushes in too much sometimes and it induces a failure...in my case I'm accidentally engaging the slide lock. Yours looks like your glove just contacts the slide and just slows it down a bit. Easy fixes for both, more practice!
Good job Ian! Out there trying and practicing! Keep at it brother
Great video Ian
Ian you should totally try out the Wilson combat grip module for the M17. Completely changed the ergonomics of the weapon for the better in my case.
The idea of having one round for training, and another for combat still seems a little 'odd' for you infantry main small arm. I would hope some training would be done with the full fat round. Opportunities for a great whoopsies from QMs!
Seems like this "training" round is pretty pointless. When I was still in the Army, the axiom was that you trained like you would fight in war. Unless the training round matches the ballistics and recoil, your riflemen won't be properly trained to handle the actual combat round. Even with training rounds on the Bradley. they may have not had the same punch, they ballistically would mirror actual combat rounds.
Yeah, they say that the use of training ammunition which was lower powered than their combat ammunition was a major contributing factor to the events which took place during the Newhall Incident.
@@lchris2703 they did this with the norma mmg as well it is a cost thing the bullet is weighted to give similar performance to the actual round but not cost as much. Idk if it is a sound idea but I can see the reasoning behind it.
@@lchris2703 it’s a range issue. Outside of the major training installations the impact zone won’t be large enough. There are plenty of ranges that you can’t shoot 855a1 on, because the impact range isn’t large enough but 855 is perfectly fine.
So much for the whole "Train as you fight, fight as you train" thing.
Really great job man
excellent review
Love the 🍪 camo. One of my favorite patterns of all time. 👍
I always fought it's rather easy to shoot a more or less steady target. Then I went to a seminar and we had the luck to shoot with a hunting rifle on animals projected on a wall through a beamer with a laser system (somewhat like lasertag) freehanded and the distance was around 3-5 meters I think. Alot of fun, but damn it is hard to get a shot in the chest (in german you would call that a "blattschuss") on a boar or stag. Since then I have even more respect for hunters or people in the military. Together with the weight lifting and heat, this looks really exhausting.
Awesome video. Big thanks to Ian and everyone involved! I've always been interested in 2 gun and 3 gun events, but even a cheap setup is a bit expensive so, unfortunately, I've never participated.
Glad you're keeping track of your Marksmanship as well as your piloting skills, Wedge.
Fun video Ian! For a first time with these weapons you did well.
God bless all here.
The M17 generally requires a break in period. They come pretty tight out of the box and need to loosen up a little bit
thats facts. I had the joy of being the first class in AIT to get them and we got to shoot 1000 rounds over a week period
@@collateral9159 most P320 models require it. My M17 had a bit of a sluggish cycle during the first 2-250 rounds but I never had to force it into battery like this. Running it out of the box in a match is ill advised
My M18 was fine right out the box 200 rounds plus that weird. Put some ballistol underneath slide and just ran it. I then shot like 500+ rounds before cleaning it
M17 and M18 are among the best looking pistols in my opinion
Sig sauer is just a consistent company especially lately love all my sig firearms. Great video!
The brotherhood of the travelling (SIG) Spear.
Ian looking like a yoked up desert storm vet!
The most interesting thing to me is the noise difference between the pistol and rifle. That suppressor is really doing it's job well.
Always ignore sound in a video as it will never transfer the effect. Microphones, even the higher end ones fail to capture the sound.
Sound suppression is really taking only felt first hand.
Not sure how much that M17 has been shot but something I have noticed with all of my 320s and various grips and slides is that in particular with the full length pistols and new frames the polymer is a bit tight on the dust cover and can give you issues going into battery until you dab a little oil on the side and work it out either with range time or just running the slide at your desk etc. I've been wanting to get a manual safety FCU for awhile just to have that bootleg M17 look on my full size
Super digging the Farmer’s Tan!!
Those shooting challenges with the kettle ball are really, really hard. You did very well.
When y'all are using your 320 in a self defense situation, remember to politely ask the person (actively trying to kill you) for a quick timeout so you can get your gun back into battery.
I'm sure it will work, everytime, the 1st time.
Well my 320 isnt a lemon so ill be fine
Next week on forgotten weapons the smart gun and motion sensor attachment for the intrepid xenomorph hunter.
Great video. Thanks dude
I love you you're not shy about mentioning you're not the greatest pistol shooter. Way better than I could manage on any of this, but shows that it's all about getting out there and doing it, not having to be perfect.
First off would like to say nothing but love for Ian and forgotten weapons. It is funny to see his farmer tanned chicken wings in full battle rattle!!😂😂
Would be interesting to see the same courses done Spear vs m4
Ian not only shoots guns but has some guns he looks like a a mercenary in an old action movie
Loving Ian and his sleeveless gear. More please
Perhaps a go with the proper ammo would be an experiment worth doing? See if the recoil and accuracy holds up still with that insane pressure cartridge.
The military isn’t allowing that out into the wild. Only lower pressure hunting and training ammo.
@@dclark1980 Give it to a reloader, and you could match the military performance pretty easily. And again, the hunting ammo is only marginally lower pressure than the military stuff.
@@ostiariusalpha unless you got some of the same casing as the army does then that isn't going to end well for you
@@kameronjones7139 The hunting ammo is exactly the same case as the one the military ammo uses. No difference whatsoever.
@@ostiariusalpha that statement alone show you haven't seen the military case by all means look it up and tell me they are the same I bet you didn't even watch the last video all the way through because he show the difference
Ian’s living in 2032
Thanks for the great content.
Keep them coming. Love this content. You should do more and more.
Damn bro, Ian has got some nice arms, and that armor looks good😏 wonder if he's like Ned Flanders and Gardener Willie, ripped af
Pretty decent run sir, sad to see the function issues with the Pistol.
Gotta remember as you said, the ammo being used is the "training" ammo and not the full/ high-power cartridges for active duty/ combat use, so the recoil is going to be softer. I'd like to see how sustainable it can be with the combat ammo in conjunction to the weight and lessened carrying capacity. Still not sold on this system or the caliber.
Ian is upgraded into a badass operator,..salute to you sir..
That tire you were lugging around looked pretty nice.
An all Sig load out. Good on you, Ian. Sig makes quality stuff.
Sig stuff is garbage. The company should cease to exist m
Testing out the newest military rifle and pistol in camo that has been outdated for 30 years. That's Gun Jesus for us.
Thank you for sharing
Love the Desert Storm aesthetics. And i'm sure your guns (arms) love getting some sun.
ian i know its a lot of work to film what you love but please keep going. youve never changed. and the rest of this media is getting unbearable. luv u
I know, right? It's basically as bigger the channel gets the more "idiocratic" it gets. Except Forgotten Weapons.
How are there already "surplus" new military pistols?
And I want to see Ian shooting full pressure battle ammo.
Sig sells the M17 on the open market. ETA after hearing Ian’s comment: Sig sold off the initial batch of M17s used in one of the trials, those would have been the surplus ones
They are meeting their contract obligations and selling them on the market as well I guess
You know what you right,
But there still are difference between the M18 and p320-M18
@@AbsolutionArmament the military M17's are the same as the military M18's. No lightening cuts, different attachment of the rear plate, etc. The safety changes to the civilian P320 were based on what they did with the M17. And no, there's no plans I've heard of to switch the M17 for the M18.
@@bobbertbobberson6725 M17s are the standard issue across the board, M18s are issued to MPs and other MOSs that may need a compact pistol.
Love the video Ian great job
Been waiting for this
In my country we call it "NATO tan", where the arms are dark until where the sleeves of t-shirts usually begin.
Here is farmer's tan
@@DarthSouron Farmer's tan in my country, is when only your hands are tanned.
Hell yes, bring the fury! The .277 Fury to be specific...
Keep up the good stuff Ian!
Thank you for this interesting video.
I’ve never done two gun before, but now I want to
Motivation! Ian's in shape, swinging those kettlebells like a champ! No bodybuilding nonsense, just good old endurance and performance.
He looks like a hybrid of ‘Nam and Desert Storm soldier 😁
Ship me to the south china sea right now
Grate two part review. As a Retired Spec Op Intell guy, My view of the M5 is this (it is about time we got it right). A lot of YT commenters are stuck on the added weight and the cost of this refit. Would like them to consider this for a moment. The cost of calling for back up support in combat because the target you hit is still combat effective and over running your position. Great review, great video
As someone who's served with both the G3 and the C7 I couldn't agree more. Too many things constitutes "proper cover" for the 5.56. Having a cartridge which is flatter shooting AND has petter piercing ability than 7.62 is going to be a major boon. 7.62 already made short work of single layer brick walls at 50 meters. This uber powered 6.8 with a steel core might extend that to some 100 meters.
Being able to penetrate body armour is going to be "the justifying trick" for this calibre, but it's real value is going to in it's versatility against "medium hardness obstacles". Because, lets face it, this rifle is going to be used a lot more against insurgents using hit-and-run tactics in diverse environments than against Spetznas troops in a direct confrontation.
Ian you're a legend! Always have been!
Cool, thanks Ian!