The most "unknown" concern when upgrading steering stem bearings to tapered Timken kits
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- čas přidán 20. 04. 2016
- How to install steering stem bearings. This is one of the most unknown things by most technicians when it comes to using and servicing Timken tapered style bearings.
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All balls now includes these washers idk if they did before,I like this guy he's thorough and I run into his vids alot when looking for technical bike stuff
THANK YOU! I'm planning to order a tapered roller kit to replace my 1981 Honda CM400 loose bearings. I wasn't aware of this!!! Again, thank you for the invaluable info.
Oh man thats a video just in time. I was just about to install this on my rebuild and was thinking why the freak the seal hindered the bearing on my all balls kit. Was gonna install it anyway, now to find some spacers:) thanks
this is the best channel for information,i feel like im taking motorcycle classes.this really helps alot.thank you
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I am glad I did mine before watching this . luckily I had no problems except snapping a screwdriver levering the bottom race out . I just got the cheapest kit of ebay . Taking panels and sorting the handlebars and electrics was the hardest part.
In all cases that I have seen the seal has a different "land" on the stem than the bearing, the seal does not contact the bearing it seats in the frame and seals against the land below the bearing on the stem... (lower seal) The upper seal sits against the stem (inner) race.
Great reminder to double check your parts before installation. I have learned the hard way not to trust the right parts are always packaged correctly
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Excellent video and a great point about seal spacing. I have been less enthusiastic about the All Balls kits due to material construction of the bearing and the seal clearance issues.. I'm currently sourcing some Japanese kits from NTN and Koyo to see how the seal configuration compares but over all, I think the bearing quality is better regardless.
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Good information. I always buy OEM replacement parts from my local dealer. They can sometimes be more expensive but at least you know they are an exact replacement.
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The seal contacts the cup bore in the frame and touches the roller cage. I've fitted dozens and if greased the performance is excellent. There is no rotation only oscillation and the whole assembly is necely damped. This instructional is inviting people to get into trouble by reducing thread engagement and putting things out of position.
It's pretty hard to argue the video proof and read through the comments where others have the same issue. Your point of reduced thread engagement is super interesting when many of these kits are "taller" than stock as the timken style beaking pack is compared to lose (or caged) balls and race. We have at times simply choose not to use a conversion kit for the reason, Even the package and All Balls state is as correct. In those cases, there was such little thread available.
We also are talking very small shims. If anything, installing a rubber seal dragging against the cage, concerns me that the handling of the motorcycle could (and it will) not only change the characteristics but negatively affect it.
ooooooooo....fighting words,jkjk I don't doubt,I know ppl do their work and own studys I wonder if this guy checked to see if you're right,that would be something, and a correct move
Great information about any 2nd supplier part....and about though inspection...thanks.
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Top tip about the seal went to the workshop to check my kit that arrived recently but found i candy adjust the rubber seal depth by rubbing it in a circular motion on some 600 grade wet and dry paper took about half an hour for both but now perfect the difference is very noticeable without your download I would of just assembled the kit as was !! Thanks
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Thank you for that just bought an all balls kit for gs 550 will be watching for that 👍👍
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I went to my local Yamaha dealer for a set of head stock bearings for a xvs650 hoping to get the original ball type, but they are supplying the all balls taper roller bearings too..... you would think they would be aware of this problem
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Thanks for Highlighting this Shane, it seems it's happening with all "Pattern Part" suppliers, just reviewed a UK supplier (Pyramid Parts) and there are a few comments surrounding the same issue, so it would seem we either A) Buy the OEM part at an exorbitant price (no thanks) or B) Make sure you get the best fit you can, maybe utilising the old seals if possible, which isn't the answer, i know.
Anyhoo thanks for the heads-up and i hope someone somewhere can rectify this issue !
Old seals will not help in this converstion style. It's simply a design issue as I show and the spacer is absolutely required for clearance. Some kits (many actaully) work fine but every tech (or DIY) is ultimately responsible to check fitment when using OEM or aftermarket parts. That's the skill set I try to drive home...
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I reckon All Balls have given you the wrong rubber seal for the bearings..... I have just checked the set I have here; and the inner washer part of the rubber seal bottoms out against the inner race... no matter how much you torque it down the rubber cannot touch the roller cage
Perfect this is what I have just described. You have to press firm but the text needs the outer race for him to text this.
The seal will press against the outer seal and form a nice snug seal without intrusion. I have the same type.
excellent vid, cheers
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I loved your aftermarket bearing video. I'm having the same problem on a 1986 es 250 big red. They keep saying the 22-1029 aftermarket upgrade is a direct fit. I've wasted about 120 dollars cause I kept them too long thinking I'm doing something wrong
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Thank you sir for the video
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That seal is intended to mate with the race, not the cage.
seanchriscraft
Exactly but in most EVERY single kit, it is not spaced correctly and hits the cage. The entire reason I made the video. Almost EVERY time you tq things up it hit the cage, bind and cause drag or sticky spots. Not what you want when steering. 👍 Head over to the new website and subscribe to the newsletter to never miss a video or newsletter!
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Very helpfull.Thanks.
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Thanks! Very useful
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If you keep the old seals and cut away the rubber, would it be ok to use them as spacers? - if yes its a perfect fit washer every time....
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I replaced my loose balls and the difference was incredible. All balls. Hardest part was removing the lower crown race.
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which is advisable?
Noticed my front axle has some freeplay meeting the wheelbearings, I uploaded 2 vids of this. Would you mind having a look to see if i should replace the axle or not. There is nothing in the manual about the diameter of the axle or wear. I trust your judgement.
Mike
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Thanks Shane, so does the makers of these roller bearings (ALL BALLS etc) not know this and supply a spacer washer with kits. Thanks for sharing.
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Why does over tightening make the steering notchy? Like the handle bars are centered and held in a certain spot.
It seems to me Shane that one should go OEM due to the variables in guessing the exact spacing on aftermarket fit. It could be too tight, or loose allowing water in.
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hi! as you sais..its a ecxellent bearing kit brand..I use it on all my bikes...but as you said..that rubber seal at the triple tree neck go to tie on hondas..I need to modify as you do some time ago
..but thanks ..that confirm what I do is right....thanks
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I ran into a similar problem with my 96 fatboy pivot bearings for the rear swingarm. I bought ALL BALLS and they were a hair to wide so I couldn't put the bar in between them that the pivot bolts screwed into. And yes they were for my make and model. It had me so confused!! So I ended up buying Drag Specialties pivot bearings and they fit, thank goodness. I thought maybe my swingarm was bent but no. Not the case. So hes correct you gotta check these aftermarket parts.
It's mind blowing how many people have commented on this video like we are crazy...glad to hear you got the point on "checking your parts" me friend...keep wrenching...Shane
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Absolutely! Thanks
In the service manual when re-installing, it mentions to install both outer races but only one inner race (lower). Could anyone explain why? Why the upper inner race get removed but not reinstalled?
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Where can i find these bearings? My bike doesn't have the top or bottom ones so I need to find the right size but I don't know how
Start by going to your local dealer and they can look them up by model. If not there then go the bearing website. If you still need help from me I can get the part number for you.
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Shane Conley thanks for the info, also, my bikes stem is fat on the bottom, and then it gets skinnier as it goes up. So I don't know if I need different size bearings, or the same size. The bottom of the stem is 24.01 millimeters, the middle is 22.47 millimeters, and I didn't measure the very top but it gets skinnier than the middle.
Thanks, useful info. But leaves the question why after market parts aren’t delivered with that additional washer/spacer.
For sure...the answer we get from manufactures is "this is meant for many models". Terrible answer if you ask us as then include what's needed or list it.
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wow thank you!
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Torque of the after market bearings. Ball vs. tapered. Do you use factory torque settings?
Good question. Tapered vs. Ball are almost always different I believe. I'm really not confident to answer. But when it comes to the steering stem. There is a considerable amount "feel" and operation check steps. The torque spec is very dependant on the shaft diameter. I always tq 1/2 the spec and "feel" and keep going. Not applying enough torque could also risk the races not seating all the way too.
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The all balls kit comes with correct spacers I believe.
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This was an all balls kit.
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I think you may just have a dud set, use these kits all the time some have 2 different sizes in as top and bottom bearings are not always identical in thickness
Theres been countless pivot works linkage kits that ive installed that i actually have to lathe or file a couple thousandths off the inner sleeves to fit properly
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As stated, very rarely have these kits not been perfect right out of the box. BUT you must check! this video shows when they don't, how to fix it, and would help many when using other cheap brands of bearing replacement kits when it comes to Timken style replacement.
I'm showing what I've seen a few times in hundreds of these installed over 20 years...I teach technicians "how to" be a mechanic and things to look for beyond remove and replace.
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I'm not sure you are correct on this. The seal will rest against the tube, which will keep it up off the bearing cage. Drop the whole assembly in the tube and then view it.
@@Daveinet No worries you're unsure but it's most likely you missed key information from fast forwarding as Shane clearly shows and explains the problem. Even an employee from All Balls verified the issue and agreed that the final assembly MUST be verified by the technician. As we shared, most of these kits work perfect, but this video shows when they don't, how to fix it, and would help many when using other cheap brands of bearing replacement kits when it comes to Timken style replacement.
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Which is better ballrace or nuckle bearing ,pardon me
There are reasons for both. Most folks believe the Timpkin bearing like shown, is strongest. Want to say “thanks” or “keep it up”? Click here www.paypal.me/how2wrench Thanks for commenting and adding value to our community!
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I brought a set of tapered for a 73 rd the bearings were to thick no threads to put nut on ended up buying proper bearing from yahama
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its lit
5:05 - 5:20
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The question is, what if the bearings is broken. how to remove the outter race??
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Hammer and drift
Shane great video man, not gonna dissuade me one way or the other but i love learning new things,i am restoring a 550k that was parked since 1984,some inside, some outside but more outside than inside,lol,thing is rough but my magic hands will give this bike another life in the witness protection program,ha ha ha, anyhow i am subscribed and i wanted to ask you something....
I know when people put these tapered bearings in, they freeze the cup in the freezer and Ive actually seen the cup go in 3 quarters of the way and tap the rest which is not much with a brass punch very very carefully, my question is... what if a guy had access to a big ole drum of liquid nitrogen? i actually work in a machine shop,we overhaul big engines and we use it to drop inserts on the deck of the engines after we machine bad portions of them due to erosion caused by water over the years,once those inserts are frozen they drop in there like magic,would the nitrogen hurt the cup in this application or would it be ok?
Reason i ask is because the inserts we freeze are pretty good size but these cups are tiny compared to that,just curious if it could be done, thanks man for all your teachings.
Shoot sorry bud, We haven't seen any questions like this won come across to help you on nitrogen use...Let me try and see I can catch Shane to answer quick. He is currently at an extended stay in Japan training students this winter. We are just the social media team.
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I recently installed a set of "All Balls" tapered bearings in my SR500 Yamaha
The previous owner had already replaced the original bearings with tapered bearings and the outer race of the lower tapered bearing that I now needed to remove from the frame had a larger inside diameter than the original bearing would've had and so there was no lip to drift (strike) the bearing out
This made it near impossible to remove the lower bearing race, I was going to weld a washer to the bottom of the bearing race but didn't for fear of badly damaging the bearing's seat in the frame
I ended up grinding a thin screwdriver's blade to a sharp edge and bent it an inch or so from the tip of it's blade and managed to hammer the sharpened tip of the screwdriver between the bearing's race and it's seat in the frame and moved it enough to allow a washer to fit in between the bearing and seat and I was then able to drift this washer from above and by working the washer around the bearing I managed to remove it
This caused slight damage to the seat but I was able to correct it
The lower "All Balls" bearing I refitted has the same problem as the bearing I removed, no lip for future removal
Another problem is these tapered bearings are apparently eight to ten millimetres taller than the height of the original bearings and this caused other problems with the way the top clamp sits relative to the steering stem
After I managed to remove the tapered bearings fitted by the previous owner I should've thrown away both the old set and the new "All Balls" sets of tapered bearings and refitted a set of original races and ball bearings
We shared this with Shane and he said "been there...sometimes OEM is best to stick with" He said to give you good ahead and share this video link with you (normally a member benefit) czcams.com/video/oYW1Syr8Fwg/video.html
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I need to get back on my bike where did you get that washer lmk asap
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I bought one of these kits for a VTX1300 and I didn't have this issue. Maybe its particular bikes that do.
Hi Alex...You may have skipped the part in the video where he states the "most times" they are perfect. In this case you have to remember what he is really teaching is how even new parts can be wrong and its the technician's responsibility to verify. Thanks from the social team!
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Thanks brother I am from Dhule, Maharashtra, India . But why the company provides Ball bearings in most of the bikes
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That seal is not necessary.
The Italian bikes with taper rollers as std kit, (MG LeMans, Duc 900 etc)
Had a pressed steel cover with a 4mm lip that enshrouded the top of the headstock.
there was never any problem with rust etc. LM grease it up, good to go.
And a shallow lip rubber disc (stepped) under the bottom bearing.
I hear you. Riders that ride in heavy rains or those crazy "powerwashers" would find a slightly longer bearing life...lol
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Where did you get that washer I need it
You should have contacted All Balls and got their take on it?
First off...I love this All Balls and its a shame I got a poor customer service person or "techline" expert with such a poor attitude and had no interest in helping. I suggested that this get to a higher up position and got not return contact...
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I have the same bearings as these..
Of you push the seal hard enough against the outer race that seal will flare outwards , you'll get a nice seal without the rubber rubbing on the bearings.
I actually found the bearing set was. perfect.
Again on the seal there is a line you can clearly see. That will bend once the seal faces against the outer race.
Please can you do this test again but put the outer race on and press firm. There will not be any intrusion of the seal to the bearings.
Feedback is always welcome. You’re year make and model may be fine but this one and others, (I just filmed a Harley with same problem) are not right. I ask you to watch the video again and the close “gap” that creates the problem. No seal should cause significant drag or bearing contact. 😊 seriously appreciate you commenting and continuing the conversation.
@@How2Wrench thanks Shane,
I will take a real close look.
I tried to creat the same problem as you showed here. And yes I do get the same issue if not using the outer race. Is when holding the bearing in to the race and the seal applied on top there is drag unless the seal is pressed firmly. I noticed that the seal flares outwards and drag is eliminated.
I will go back and recheck your video. Thank you for your response.
@@How2Wrench ok , just went back and re watched careful.
I understand what you are pointing out here and it's a good point .
My kit was for a Honda vfr 750 94.
I just bought another kit yester for the Suzuki Gsx 750 f 2001. Otherwise known as a Katana.
With out the outer race yes I do get the same issue. But putting them all together. Outer race , bearings and seal. There is some drag until squeezing it together firmly.
Before I fitted mine to the vfr I checked many times over.
Upon fitment I made sure that the seal flares outwards. Was a great.
Can you try it with the race and see what happens. Many thanks and thanks for your response.
@@calvinmartykleinmcfly6998 Of course, I love sharing and working with not only kind people, but those to learn from. Welcome to the channel.
@@How2Wrench thanks for looking in to the Shane. Great channel by the way. And thanks for responding . Keep up the great work. Your videos are extremely useful and some great teaching tips applied.
For OEM just make sure the old matches the new...
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Pls confirm the bearing size and model for Yamaha yzf r15 v2 2016 make.
Your factory parts book should have it, or find Yamaha parts vendors online with exploded parts breakdowns.
I hate when people ask questions just to prove a point
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Show less
Ruuber seal seats perfectly, you have to simply push it down, there is no ANY GAP. Everything seats perfectly!
Feedback is always welcome. That is the case most 99% of the time BUT Not in this case...
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Seal is no hitting cage, You have to push it down evenly, on Your wideo seal and cage is always with gap and askew. No gap, no problem, work like design.
Can you please review @ 4:09 and see it pushed down and hitting. If you watch the entire video, he shows it hitting when pushed down. It was noticed after the student could not get the steering not to drag no matter how loose or tight when installed. Shimming it fixed it correctly as shown. We know there are so many of these kits that work well and you believers in the product struggle with seeing this. We've only ever seen it two times and used it as a teaching lesson in looking at the details of how it's supposed to work. What do you think now?
The issue appears to be self clearing after awhile ha!
So are you saying your better off With the ball bearing If that's what came with the bike Rather than switch over the role of Bearing That wasn't designed for it? Us Would Thank that most people Would catch that What I don't understand If it's that obvious, Why would they try to install it?
Hi George. I'm not saying these bearing are bad. I think they are an improvement (but I'm not an engineer either...lol) I'm just pointing out an installation check step and how to do it correctly.
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You wouldn’t be trying to use the seal off the old bearings would you?????
Hi Derek,
Many kits work perfect and we love them. Its just that some (one than one kit) over the years ran into this problem. We are doing two things here. Trying to teach a required skill set to use regardless of the brand and to recognize a problem to address. I still order and use these kits.
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So these tapered bearing kits are incomplete junk is what your saying.
Not at all. As stated, very rarely have these not been perfect right out of the box. I'm showing what I've seen a few times in hundreds of these installed over 20 years...I teach technicians "how to" be a mechanic and things to look for beyond remove and replace.
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this seal goes on the bottom of stem & bearing on top of it
That is true for the bottom of the tree but we are talking about the top bearing...watch the entire video so we don't confuse someone reading the comments friend...😊
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Yup.....yup......yup.......yup...
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If you have to add spacers ... ITS NOT A GOOD KIT
Thanks for commenting and adding value to our community! I'd have to agree. After reaching out, and trying to get information or see if there were any recommendations, I got no response. Sad as I think this is an easy fix to what would otherwise be a great product.
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Great channel!
But, ALL BALLS are Chinese low grade products.
Go oem, or go to bearing dedicated companies...
Great point! There is a time and a place...depends on use and weight of the vehicle I think is a big factor too...
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Why do people think allballs are quality ? Get Koyo or NTS ?
So agree. All Balls are cheap, convenient and have a time and place for sure. In certain applications I would not use (my track bike) and in others (small dirt bikes/atvs for example) I will.
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Taper rollers bearings in head stem was about the worst thing to ever hit the mcycle aftermarket when I was an mc mechanic in the 70's , don't use, period - taper rollers bearing require preload resulting in braking effect at the steering head which is a great way to bring you just that much closer to owning a tank slapper special, don't ever race with them - ball bearings have precision point contact, no resistance in the steering, that's why they use them in steering heads - check them, if they are loose adjust them to just remove slack, if they are notched replace them but don't ever get the idea taper rollers bearings are a good idea - dirt bikes fine but road bikes, don't do it
Yet millions of people are out there, riding just fine with tapered kits and not having a single issue. The bearings, their design, their usage...are not the cause of tank slapper.
The diff is taper rollers require a good deal of preload that puts some resistance into the steering, balls not so and run neutral that resistance can result in a shimmy of the steering head when light under power, yes you can ride out of it easily, or not if you are inexperienced, its not dissimilar to what happens if you hold the bars a little too tight and induce a tank slapper but not that profound, as for what causes tank slappers, a number of things can including simply backing off too fast at high RPM on a bike with high compression in a dead straight line, been there and done that, the tank slapper itself is just a compounding oscillation and merely the outcome of a number of factors..As for them never causing an issue, how to you arrive at that.
I agree. My opinion is it's because of lack of maintenance...
Yes that's the number one reason they use them, low maintenance, but as a mechanic my attitude to it was its a bit like car owner logic, so long as it last longer its good where bike riders are IME a bit more focused on whats best for the bike not just service costs and generally more prepared to spend time in maint and checks on their bike than most car owners and checking the steer head now and then inst so time consuming, so long as they are not allowed to run any slack they will last a very long time. But with the advent of CDI and EFI there is a good deal less tweaking and tuning to do on bikes and more riders are possibly less incline to get the tools out so often like we used to.
Not ball bearings.
Whats the other word for a crf110?something french?lol..no seriously
Turn the seal around duh
Thanks for commenting and adding value to our community!
Well almost, you can't flip the seal "upside down" in this case as the seal would then sit outside the steering stem kneck and provide no protection to the bearing. Dirt and water would get right in and ruin both bearings in no time. Take another look.
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Interesting....
25 years fixing cars and bikes...
Almost always I'm using allballs for steering bearings.( especially for honda )
Never in my life encountered this problem.
By the way it seems like you are trying to match the bottom seal to the top race set.
Hmmmmmm
Maybe you are doing this on purpose?
Hmmmmmm
To what gain would I have to give out "fake information" Since making this video years ago, many folks have reached out saying thank you for a solution from their kit not woking (other brands too. The point of the video is to model a step one should check when installing. Like I said in the video we have used many All Ball kits with no problems as well but they provided no help or feedback except to return it. So as a tech of 25 years maybe you should think back on times that you appreciated "learning a tip". Here is my suggestion for you: You can find what you need here: amzn.to/3a3Xwsn 😆🤣
You could also read the other comments people posting finding similar results. I am still irritated from your insultive suggestion. You did know research on our channel or reputation. Nor did you respond. Behavior like this does not fit our community and best of luck elsewhere.