TWICE-PLUS-TENTHS … The Most Useful Bank Shot Diamond System You’ll Ever Learn
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- čas přidán 29. 06. 2024
- Dr. Dave presents a new diamond system for aiming sliding bank shots. It is called the twice-plus-tenths system. It is more accurate than all the other systems, including the 1/3-more-than-twice system, and it works over a wider range of angles. It measures everything relative to the rail grooves across from the diamonds instead of through the diamonds. The origination rail number is always twice the banking rail number plus that many tenths. Speed, spin, and cut angle effects are also demonstrated, along with how to aim cross-side and long banks in addition to cross-corner banks.
Content:
0:00 - Intro
1:20 - Twice-Plus-Tenths System
4:29 - Factors and Effects
7:44 - How to Use the System
10:40 - Cross-Side and Straight-Back Banks
12:05 - Examples
13:29 - Wrap Up
Supporting Resources:
- recent video with experiment and system comparison: “SLIDING BANK SHOT DIAMOND SYSTEMS … How to Aim Banks at Fast-Speed or Close-to-the-Cushion” - • SLIDING BANK DIAMOND S...
- 1/3-more-than-twice banking system: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/b...
- analysis of new system: billiards.colostate.edu/techn...
- bank and kick shot aiming systems resource page: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/b...
- bank and kick shot tutorial: billiards.colostate.edu/tutor...
- bank and kick shot effects: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/b...
- diamond ruler for 9′ table (for measuring between diamonds): billiards.colostate.edu/resou...
- gearing outside spin 40% rule: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/s...
- “System for Aiming With Sidespin” (SAWS): billiards.colostate.edu/faq/s...
- experimental results comparing banking angles on various table brands and sizes: billiards.colostate.edu/techn...
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Good Luck With Your Game!!! - Sport
*Content:*
0:00 - Intro
1:20 - Twice-Plus-Tenth System
4:29 - Factors and Effects
7:44 - How to Use the System
10:40 - Cross-Side and Straight-Back Banks
12:05 - Examples
13:29 - Wrap Up
*Supporting Resources:*
- recent video with experiment and system comparison: “SLIDING BANK SHOT DIAMOND SYSTEMS … How to Aim Banks at Fast-Speed or Close-to-the-Cushion” - czcams.com/video/ZY9-rNx16-4/video.html
- 1/3-more-than-twice banking system: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/bank-kick/one-third-more-than-twice/
- analysis of new system: billiards.colostate.edu/technical_proofs/new/TP_B-27.pdf
- bank and kick shot aiming systems resource page: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/bank-kick/
- bank and kick shot tutorial: billiards.colostate.edu/tutorial/kicks-and-banks/
- bank and kick shot effects: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/bank-kick/effects/
- diamond ruler for 9′ table (for measuring between diamonds): billiards.colostate.edu/resource_files/diamond_ruler.pdf
- gearing outside spin 40% rule: billiards.colostate.edu/faq/sidespin/outside-gearing/
- “System for Aiming With Sidespin” (SAWS): billiards.colostate.edu/faq/sidespin/aim/saws/
- experimental results comparing banking angles on various table brands and sizes: billiards.colostate.edu/technical_proofs/new/TP_B-28.pdf
*Subscribe to Dr. Dave's CZcams Channel:*
czcams.com/users/DrDaveBilliards
Thanks Dr. Dave for all your hard work in making these videos
You're welcome. I aim to swerve. :)
Thanks for all the awesome videos, Dr Dave! The mix of technical skill and research really results in some great systems.
You're welcome. I appreciate your appreciation. :)
You are the best mr .dr dave ! I m following you for almost a decade now , you allways amaze me , i mean , the way you can easely explain difficult topics !
I'm glad to hear it. Thank you!
Thanks Dr. Dave! I first watched your 1/3 + twice video when I first started playing pool about 7 years ago. It was a little much for me at the time, but I revisited it a few months ago, and my banking has improved immensely. Can't wait to try this one out!
The "1/3-more-than-twice" system (with adjustments where necessary) has been my "go to" system for many years. Now it will be replaced by the "twice-plus-tenths" system!
Examples for the win! Some other videos only show happy path, ideal circumstances. Appreciate teaching us how to think about these!
I'm glad you like my "complete" coverage.
Another great video dr. Dave. Going to try it out right now. Thanks for all your hard work making videos for people around the world!
Thanks. I'm really excited about this system. I hope people around the world find it as helpful as I am.
On.a table I used to play on ,which was an olhausen 8' ,I would simply multiply by .4 from wherever I was shooting from .From 2 to .8 , 4 to 1.6, 5 to .2. That seemed to work pretty well on that table at higher speeds.
@@lesterweinheimer665 That's close to the Eckert and Briesath 3/8 systems in this video:
czcams.com/video/ZY9-rNx16-4/video.html
This is great man. Thanks for being such a great resource for everyone Dr Dave😊
You're welcome. I aim to swerve. :)
@@DrDaveBilliards 😂
謝謝DrDaveBilliards提供清楚有效的練習方法.
You're welcome. I hope you find it helpful.
Club table and pro table have significant effects and I am happy this video was posted
This system works on any table; although, Diamond tables play short and require adjustment per the info here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/bank-kick/Diamond
Holy cow! I've been trying to dial this in and am experiencing a huge bump in my bank shot potting 🤯 wonderful work, good sir!
I am also excited about how effective the new twice-plus-tenths system is, even at large angles, where most other systems break down.
Dr Dave is brilliant
Thanks. Although, coming up with stuff like this is more about careful experiments and patience (with a little Excel plotting thrown in).
You're the man Dave!
Thanks. I hope people like this system. I worked really long and hard on this one.
Excellent. Thank you.
Thank you, and you're welcome.
Very thorough. Gonna try this out!
Thanks. I hope you find it useful. I certainly have.
I really love this video dr Dave very detailed and brain quenching that’s much I will let you know my results
I hope you find it as useful as I have.
This is REALLY a great tutorial vid 👌👍
Thanks. I hope it helps you win some games.
Brilliant as usual
Thanks.
Ty Dr. Dave! Gonna give it a try.
Yw. I hope you have success with it.
@@DrDaveBilliards i tried it a little while ago. It works very very well. Even the off- angle shots.
@@joestrauss8977 I'm glad to hear it.
Very cool! Rootin Tootin shoot em up Sam!
Thanks!
You're welcome. And thank you! I appreciate the support.
I will definitely be trying this bank system on a sliding table
Sliding banks are possible on any table if the OB close enough to the cushion or if you use enough speed.
Looks like a good system, which I will try. After playing for 60 yrs, instinct has more or less won out over systems. The problems I find with most systems is when the balls aren't near rails, out in the field of the table, where you need to figure the nearest path or line for a system to work. And then throw in the math, if math is not a strong suit, it tends to cause a few tantrums among opponents. On top of that, as you well state, all the nuances that goes with banking tends to creep in the further out from the rails. Any who, Very interesting and I will certainly give it a shot. Thanks Dr. D
With balls away from the rails, it is helpful to find the nearest system tracks and estimate in between or do a 2-to-1 shift relative to the nearest track. See:
czcams.com/video/rcWccgPnoso/video.html
This works for twice-plus-tenths also.
Excellent work. No more adjusting the tracks for the twice plus 1/3rd. I guess we are adjusting. It's just measurable now. Super great concept!!!!
Thank you!!!!!!!
This system is definitely a big improvement over the 1/3-more-than-twice system, and that system was already pretty good.
@@DrDaveBilliards they are both amazing, just like you!!!!!
@@fixitrod4969 Thanks you!
Help full! Oh my you just turned pool into a math class. And you know how good I was at math... Good point about top spin roll and hitting with power. That I can understand.
I’m glad you liked it.
Thanx!
yw
LOL
GREAT STUFF BUT I'M CONFUSED I'M GLAD MY POOL DAYS ARE OVER WITH
Keep em coming Dave
So for us non americans its just opposite x2 + 10% (1,1). This is super helpfull as usual. Thank you!
… or 2.2 x opposite. (or 2,2x)
This is similar to a system I use, but I learned it as the 2.5 to 1 track for medium to firm banks, or as you accurately state when the obect ball is sliding, which can be from faster speed or proximity to the rail.
For mine, CB position 1 equates to .4 on the opposite rail (.4 x 2.5 = 1), then 2 to .8, 3 to 1.2, 4 to 1.6, etc. I think you will see the numbers match pretty close, exactly if paralleling your lines over and adjusting by 1 tenth on each side, 2 tenths for the 2 line, etc. I typically measure mine through the diamonds but will adjust to rail track numbers as needed, especially on shorter banking tables like broken in Diamond tables.
Also, should note that it's easier to just multiply by 4 and count in tenths on the opposite rail rather than divide by 2.5, especially when in between even diamonds. So 1 goes to .4, 1.5 would match up with .6, 5 with 20 tenths (2 diamonds), etc. Just easier on the brain for most... :)
Thanks for sharing, as always love the videos and explanations, have learned so much from you over the years and able to pass that knowledge along to my students as well, really appreciate it!
I’m glad you liked the video. Try it out. It is easy to calculate and it is very accurate over a much wider range than typical through-diamond systems.
@@DrDaveBilliards I know it works because the system I use ends up very close if not exactly on those same numbers. As per one of your examples, then shooting from 4.4 to 2, the actual numbers through the diamond are 4.6 to about 1.8. 1.8 * 2.5 = 4.5, so pretty close. I would have to test as the angles get larger (beyond 4) if my version starts to get a little off, it may, but then again I'm usually not banking regularly above half a table in rotation games I play.
I'm familiar with many kicking and banking systems from playing 3 cushion, and there are a lot of variations - through the diamond, opposite the diamond, dead ball (no english), running english, max running or reverse english, etc. Whenever possible I prefer running english and through the diamond, easiest to visualize and easiest to see. Dead ball systems are very finicky on tip placement and sometimes speed, and opposite diamond systems are hard to see and judge, especially at steeper angles. But these pesky systems don't always conform to what we like... :)
Again, thanks for sharing, great to have another way to look at the banks and appreciate it's super accurate across a wide range of angles, as you said not usually the case!
@@ScottsPoolSchool You’re welcome, and thank you for sharing your perspectives also.
Great Dr Dave. I'll have to make sure I take a tape measure to my next game lol.
You don’t need a tape measure. That’s what the diamonds are for!
Billiard là môn thể thao đầy tính khoa học, giúp đầu óc phát triển rất nhiều, nhưng ở nơi tôi sống, những quán billiard thường là nơi tụ tập của những thành phần giang hồ, phá hoại, nên nhiều người đánh đồng rằng nó là trò chơi không lành mạnh. Ngoài ra, tôi chỉ có thể hiểu được một phần của video vì tôi không biết tiếng anh 😂. Cám ơn tiến sĩ Dave vì những hướng dẫn bổ ích của ông 👍.
You don't need to know English to understand the system diagram:
billiards.colostate.edu/wp-content/uploads/bank_sliding_twice-plus-tenths-1024x637.png
I use the spot on the wall pretty effectively with your 2 plus a third system. I will try this one with it a bit too. My biggest problem in banking is not being able to get the cue ball away from the object ball in time and using english for reverse banks.
I have used the 1/3-more-than-twice system for a long time, but the new twice-plus-tenths system is my new favorite system. It works better and over a larger range, and it is much faster and more reliable than a cue-measurement-based spot-on-the-wall approach. Concerning how to avoid double kisses and use sidespin effectively, see the videos and info here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/bank-kick/double-kiss/
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/bank-kick/effects/
How about a video on slow speed banks. You're awesome!
I just did one:
czcams.com/video/rcWccgPnoso/video.html
It focusses on kicks, but it works for rolling-ball banks also (as I demonstrate at the beginning of the video).
Thanks. I'm eager to try this one out. Have you experimented with using it on different tables?
Not yet, but I plan to. Although, I expect it to work very well on most tables (except Diamonds, where adjustments are required for all systems) per the tests and info here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/bank-kick/testing/
Some didn't go long at 3:17 , the shallow angle going to the diamond the rail is in the way of the path. I do the 2:1 with rail groove but instead of the +.1 I gear them in with outside spin. My 1st choice for banking is a perfect straight shot and change angle with speed or spin.
This is a rail groove system, not a through diamond system, so there is no path blocking.
Great Video! I remember you said that your rails are very spongy and dead, does that affect the accuracy of the system when used on other tables?
My cushions are not very fast, but they bank "on system" very well. FYI, I plan to test out other tables soon.
Thanks Dr.Dave. But could you summary steps to do when ball is in random position? I just understand that need to find nearest point first, but don't understand how to aim
I show 2 ways in the video:
1.) Find the nearest track lines and aim in between.
2.) Estimate where the OB will hit the cushion, double that number and add that many tenths, and then aim the OB along the line between those two rail-groove points.
If you watch the video a few times and practice every step, it should become more clear.
@@DrDaveBilliards thank you. It seems clearer now
You're welcome. I'm glad to hear it.
Taking 2 adderall and getting notepad now. I will rewatch in 1 hour and stop in 12 hours.
I hope the Adderall help. :)
@@europe-number-1And less of those comments on a pool page.
As a physicist myself, this warms my heart. Applied physics ftw!
The entire game of pool is applied physics. You have to figure out the physics and then adjust the geometry to match the physics. But the physics is what determines the shot not the geometry.
Right...
...
...
...
I have a master's degree in physics...I know that. I'm not talking about physics as a set of rules governing phenomena. I'm talking about physics as a process of inquiry. Specifically, the experimental design, data collection, and analysis used to generate these new guidelines. But thanks, I guess?
@@jamesnewcomer5963 oh. Gotcha.
This was a fun process. I haven't done careful experiments, analysis, and creative system discovery like this in a while. I enjoyed every step, and I am excited with the result (the system), which is very good.
"banks are tough". Yup.
i never knew pool was this complicated and very nerdy of a sport and i love it thanks dr dave now i could beat tf out my friends in pool 😂
I'm glad to hear my nerdy info is giving you an edge over your friends.
Nice !!
Thanks! I love this new system.
@DrDaveBilliards so have a horrible memory but I see the system in my mind I just watched your video twice -tenth is easy to calculate your draw your speed and contact for the cue ball do you have to worry about
@@donniegraham3904 Yep. Everything needs to be near perfect to make the banks.
Use your system last night and it was very simple and it's easy to figure out your own way you start from number one he hit it to number two that equals 3 at two 10th bingo
@@donniegraham3904 I'm glad to heat it. I have also been having good success (and confidence) with the system.
I've been working on a system of seeing possible scratch shots.
Found corner pocket to oposite corner. Will find cue ball back to you into close corner😮If kick off caution sinking it far corner. 😢
FYI, good videos dealing with this topic can be found here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue-ball-control/hanger/
Dr. Dave, how accurate would this systems be for a bank beyond the side pocket? Could you aim at 4.5 from a theoretical 9.9?
Good question! 7.7 to 3.5 isn’t too far away from that, so I’d guess it would work pretty well.
I just tried 9.9-to-4.5 and I made the ball on the first attempt. Although, the Schofield system in this video is a little easier to apply for shots like this:
czcams.com/video/ZtK0Jqom3_o/video.html
@DrDaveBilliards I appreciate the quick effort. My thought was having one system that covers both would be convenient.
@@KanV437 Good thought. Agreed.
Oh nice, first time I've seen where 0 is along edge of cushion.
The only time it is not is with 2-rail and 3-rail systems like the Plus System and the Corner-5 System, where it is in the middle of the pocket (and not along the lines of diamonds).
Thanks for the video!
I see some people are confused with the math involved, and I feel the wording with tenths might be confusing to some.
Isn't it simpler to just say "multiply by 2.2"? That is what we are doing here, right?
And 2.2 is specific to your table, right? But it seems possible that each table has it's own multiplier, likely very close to 2.2.
Also, it seems you haven't hit straight some of the banks, e.g at 11:12, the cue ball clearly goes to the left after hitting the 8 (it stops right of the ghost ball from the viewer's pov), so does it mean that system actually goes long?
2.2x is correct, but most people can’t do this math without a calculator.
The number will vary some with table brand (especially Diamond) and conditions, but my table plays very close to “on system.”
I did not hit every shit in the video perfectly, but there is a little room for error with short banks into big pockets.
1 degree of travel over 58" is about the width to tip ratio of a standard cue.
I’m not sure what you mean by “width to tip ratio.” 1” displacement at at the end of the butt corresponds to 1 degree. See Bob Jewett’s illustration near the bottom of the page here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cut/estimating-angle/
Hey, Dr. Dave. I think doing the long bank off the end rail is closer to a true 2:1 since the forward roll of the object ball almost certainly can't be helped unless you hit it unreasonably hard. You'll notice when you missed long, it was just about at the mirrored spot of your starting point. I've tried this on a couple of my tables and the +tenths works perfectly on the short banks, but a true mirror works on the long banks. Also, I think a fun follow-up to this video would be more accurately predicting a 2-rail Z-shot bank. I know you've done a Z-shot video in the past, but with the updated system, you might be able to have even more successful Z-shots.
Agreed. When the OB is far from the banking cushion, a slower-speed, 2-to-1 bank can be more reliable. FYI, there is a system for Z-kicks here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/bank-kick/z-kick/
Although, it is very sensitive to shot speed, angle, and spin.
I noticed that diamond billiard tables seem to bank a little different especially if you look at red label vs blue label rails ... is there anything to that I feel it distorts math systems sometimes based on how hard or soft rails play?
Diamond tables do bank short, and adjustments are required for all banking and kicking systems. For more info, see the video, TP link, and other info here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/bank-kick/diamond/
Hello dr.dave i read in gour website that if nose height of cushion be a little higher than spec ball wull rebound slower and bank longer.what do you mean bank longer please explain it.
Going long means going past the target, with the outgoing angle too shallow relative to the rail.
I’m jealous of anybody who can grasp all this in one watch. I’m a lower level player, and I absorb as much as I can, but some if this is like college algebra. Thanks for your hard work, Dave!
Nothing worth doing is easy. I honestly didn’t expect anybody to grasp ever detail in one viewing. To do it right, you should view and practice each thing in the video separately, viewing each sub topic as many times as necessary.
@@DrDaveBilliardsYou’re an excellent instructor. Upon second viewing, I already picked up on things I missed the first go round. Thanks again, Doc! 🤟
There are so many concepts it's mind-blowing. Like using stun, rolling ball distance, the correct power is required, and math, lol
He wasn't kidding when he said banks are tough.
@@fixitrod4969 Absolutely! The best part of this game is you can ALWAYS learn new ways and techniques to get better. 🍻
@thegodofpez I'm glad to hear it.
Should the long rail bank be twice plus half a tenth since the correction should be half as much? Good stuff.
It is actually twice plus 10% of twice (or twice plus 20% of the banking rail number).
I watch a lot of snooker videos on CZcams and one of the things that I noticed is that the snooker tables don't have the diamonds on the rails. I wonder why that is. Does anyone out there know why that is the case?
Honestly, the diamonds on pool tables and the tons of different systems around it confuse players more often than not. If you followed a system, and it didn't work out during a match, you will have no clue what went wrong - was it your application of the system or something else? Also, every table plays differently, every day it will play a little different based on heat, humidity, cloth life, ball condition, etc. If the players still learning the game spend more time actually practicing the shots and improving their intuition, it will go a longer way. Under pressure, our instincts kick in and the better we refine them through practice, the better we will be under pressure.
Snooker tables which are essentially English billiard tables, never had markings. The players with their repetition develop the instinct that hold them in good stead over a variety of conditions.
Having systems is good in some way and a great discussion topic, but I see far too many average level players hung up on the systems and applying them during the match and fail unfortunately with no clue what went wrong. From the sidelines, I can see their aim is off but they are trusting more on the system rather than standing back and having an intuitive guess on what the angle should be.
It's because the Brits don't let no one but royalty to have diamonds.
Custom and tradition. For those interested there are several visual system for aiming kicks and banks that don't require diamonds. Many can be found here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/bank-kick/mirror/
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/bank-kick/contact-point-mirror/
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/bank-kick/spot-on-wall/
The parallel 2:1 is not easy. I saw one video where they did the parallel then did half way back to the original. Thoughts?
That could work, assuming you end up over the OB after both moves.
Love this breakdown.
6:46 - Did you scratch? 😅
I’m glad you liked it. That shot was not a scratch, but it’s was close. It bounced back from the point. I was just trying to keep the video as short as possible by editing out as much as I could. I knew the video would be too long for most people.
@@DrDaveBilliards awesome! Should most of your bank shots be stun?
Slow, rolling-ball banks are also reliable (and especially useful in the game of one-pocket). The banks tough to predict and control are the medium-speed, partial-roll banks. Avoid those like the plague.
Does this work for kicks as well?
... theoretically, yes; but it is very difficult to guarantee stun with a kick. You would also need to be extremely careful to not have any sidespin on the ball. There are better systems for kicks using a rolling CB. Many of them can be found in the videos and via the links here:
billiards.colostate.edu/tutorial/kicks-and-banks/
Would it make since to mark on the rail where the diamond actually is to see it easier?
By "diamond," do you mean the "aim point" on the rail? If so, that is a good idea. As demonstrated in the video, I like using a golf tee for this when practicing. And when playing you can put the tip at your aim point on the rail.
@@DrDaveBilliards yes
*sense lol
We want your beautiful videos, my ❤teacher. We are waiting
I've been busy with lessons and travel, but I'll return soon. Stay tuned.
❤️❤️🙏
ល្អហើយតើរបៀបវាស់តាមដងគើមេច
Google translate: "Well, how do you measure times?"
I'm not sure what you mean.
How do you do it when the cue and object ball aren’t lined up perfectly? 😂😂😂
When showing or practicing a banking system, it is helpful to use only straight shots. I cover in detail how to adjust you aim for cut angle and spin effects (for any banking system) in the videos and via the links here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/bank-kick/effects/
You came up with this system after your 8/10 post??? That new?
Yes. The system is "hot off the press," less than a week old.
Oops, i posted a comment for another video lol. Sorry
No problemo.
1rst. Amazing find!
Actually, 2nd, but nice try. :)
I hope you find it helpful.
I think it will be. Testing it out on my table now.@@DrDaveBilliards
I'm glad to hear it. Let me know how it goes.
Im like wth ? Algebra isnt this hard to cigure out. Sorry Dave,im lost
It might help to watch the video several times, rewinding where necessary. Even better, try everything I demonstrate, one thing at a time, at a table. That should help a lot.
Aiming at points on rail grove is awkward and impractical. I'd rather use less precise system that lets me aim at diamonds.
I agree that many people will not like the rail-groove measurements at first; but to me, the added accuracy and larger range of effectiveness make it worth the effort.
I’ve gotten used to it, but yes it’s more difficult to use than aiming directly at the diamonds.
No it isn't. I've been using rail groove for decades. Hope to see you in a game. I'm thirsty.
Agreed. Aiming at the rail grooves is a little more work than aiming at diamonds. But it is worth it to put in the practice.
Never made sense to aim at diamonds when the ball never gets there.
Ok. Why?
… to aim sliding banks with deadly accuracy over a very wide range of angles without needing to guess or judge.
P R O M O S M 💔
Very confusing
The easiest way to use the system is to just remember the reference lines (2.2 to 1, 3.3 to 1.5, 4.4 to 2, etc.). For any OB position, just find the closest line and do a 2-to-1 shift. It also might help to watch the video a few times and try everything in the video one thing at a time.
My dummy brain cannot understand 🤡
Systems like this are certainly not for everyone.