Enjoying Black Powder Episode 2: The Modele 1874 Gras
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- čas přidán 28. 06. 2024
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Black powder military rifles of the 1860s-1880s are a really enjoyable group of guns. A lot of them are relatively reasonably priced, and they are actually pretty easy to reload for. The unavailability of factory ammunition (for most, although not so much for the Trapdoor) makes them seem like a daunting prospect, but for a pretty simple investment in tools and time one can make up ammunition and have a lot of fun with rifles like this.
That's the idea behind a new series here on black powder military rifles. Each moth, my friend - and handloader - Tom and I will take out a different model to have some fun at the range and compare how they handle. And then we will show you how to make the ammunition for them. So grab your pith helmet, pause "Zulu" and join us! Today is Episode Two: the Model 1874 Gras!
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3:26 "With the baïonnette on you are halfway to the target already!" :)
Pre wwl infantry rifles with long bayonnet was last descrndant of Landsknechts pike.
@@brittakriep2938 That was my first though too, the bayonet basically turns them into pikemen.
Upgrading your gun to a spear is faster that switching to your non-existent sidearm
@@Ungood-jl5ep : The infantrymans firearms from smoothbore musket to repesting rifle of 1914 had been rather long, accompanied by long bayonnet. Remember, Up to wwl the firepowwr of infantry units had been only the rifles of the soldiers. With a long Barrel the power of powder charge was better useable. But main reason was more reach when bayonnet fencing an enemy infantryman or cavallryman with only a sword ( and No lance). This trench warfare of wwl was not unknown, siege warfare was similar, but when 17th century ended, the time of legendary siege
was over. The carbines of 1914 and before often had no bayonnet, because mostly cavallry men, gunners or transport soldiers had been equipped with them, who usually did not Charge on foot.
@@Ungood-jl5ep Indeed. Back in the day when cavalry was a major thing, that was pretty much your only hope if they engaged you in close, to skewer the cavalryman off his horse with a long infantry rifle tipped with a bayonet with a blade at least a foot long or longer.
Seeing Ian as a Legionnaire is something I didn't know I desperately needed
In my mind you should only wear the Kepi Blanc if you actually earned it...
@@edgarvandijk7595in my mind to as I earned one myself. But gun Jesus win the right to wear one whit is love of French rifle.
👍
@@edgarvandijk7595True, but Ian was given the hat by the Foreign Legion museum, so he gets a pass.
@@edgarvandijk7595better worry about the people actually trying to lie and deceive than someone dressing up for a bit of fun and history.
Tom - your grandfather is John F. Hasey? He was the first American in WW2 to shed his blood for Free France and was awarded a Companion of the Order of the Liberation by De Gaulle. That is an extremely rare and prestigious honor, with just over 1,000 given. John F. Hasey worked for Cartier in Paris before the war, selling luxury items. When the war broke out and he saw France falling apart, he escaped and decided he needed to do something. He was fighting in East Africa and the Middle East with the Free French a year before the US entered the war and was seriously wounded by a Vichy French machine gun in the Syrian campaign. The book he wrote about his service is a great read for anyone interested.
Fantastic story.
What’s the name of the book
Name of the book and ISDN# Please!!! 🤠👍
@@worldtraveler930 No luck with a search?
The book is called "Yankee Fighter" and was first published in 1942.
Ngl this series is a breath of fresh air along with “weapons of xyz war” new stuff is cool but I think a lot of us are here for the older weapons
Old guns are where it's at yo....
@@mossydog2385 I know my brother. I know🫡
Very true, Doctor. ARs can be interesting, but the old shit ALWAYS is.
A lot of these where converted to 32 gauge shotguns for hunting in Greece. Due to the long barrel it can really reach out to birds flying.
Yep I’ve got one in 28 gauge myself. Also got a couple normal 32 gauge shotguns. Even a 24 gauge.
When I was a kid, we moved into a new house and I found that specific bayonet in the basement. It was dated around that time and the writing on it was in French.
When I was in single digits we had a neighbor who had an Arisaka his father had brought back from the Pacific. I was impressed!
For whatever reason, the Gras bayonet seems to be a common older bayonet in the States. I’ve had two different people ask me, “I’ve got this old bayonet, think you could identify it?” Both cases it was a Gras.
It never gets old watching Ian working a bolt action rifle left handed. Impressive
As a left landed shooter, it's always interesting operating bolt/lever actions. Maaaany different ways to go about it
I would hazard to guess but I think at that time you would be hit if you used your left hand.
Seeing _anyone_ work a bolt action these days is impressive.
@@patrickholt8782 Yes, you would most definitely be "encouraged" to use your right hand, if you were "handily challenged". The armies of the period were defintiely "right hand shooters only"
I liked the points in the side-by-side shoot-off where they basically fired in sync.
The Hellenic Army adopted the Gras in 1877, and it was used in all conflicts until the Second World War. It became the favourite weapon of Greek guerrilla fighters, from the various revolts against the Ottoman Empire to the resistance against the Axis, acquiring legendary status. The name entered the Greek language, and grades (γκράδες) was a term colloquially applied to all rifles during the first half of the 20th century. 1877 - Greece purchases about 60,000 Gras rifles from Steyr.
22 March 1886 - Last recorded order (1,000 Gras rifles). In total 129,000 have been bought since 1877 (118,000 infantry rifles, 6,000 artillery musketoons and 4,800 cavalry carbines).
24 Jul. 1923 - At the time of the Treaty of Lausanne, the Greeks have 77,000 Gras rifles & carbines, which corresponds to about 25% of the total number of rifles.
28 Oct. 1940 - At the time of the Italian invasion, the Greeks have 60,000 Gras rifles, which corresponds to about 13% of the total number of rifles.
What's the translation of that Greek word? Украбес is what I could come up with. Ukrabes
I hope the Martini-Henry gets a run in this series!
I love their Asti-Spumanti!
real
Wrapped foil cartridges Vs drawn brass
stay tuned :)
@@JordanFlayer Great!! The MH is going to show its' stuff!!!
"Merde" cracks me up, hearing Ian utter some profanities in my language
?
Episode 3? A truly ambidextrous contemporary of the Springfield and the Gras - the Martini-Henry .577/450.
Stay tuned 😁
We’ve got a gras that has been converted to 28 gauge with a 2.5” chamber. I make my own black powder for it. Very cool gun.
I have one of those lovely guns, and yes, it lives in my house in france and I also have a shotgun conversion one but it's missing the wood but it's a on going project ❤
I knew you didn't turn into a cowardly hermit! You retired to France!
So that's what rifle that bayonet goes to. My dad had picked one up at an estate sale some 15 or 20 years ago when i was a kid because he knew I would like it. I only ever knew it was French because it is engraved on the spine of the blade with a phrase and in that phrase it has the date 1877.
we have precedents that with enough pestering from gun Jesus, some manufacturer will soon be producing 11mm Gras ammo...
Yeah at only $4 a round or some ridiculous price. I never regret buying more reloading equipment. Next project, a good primer reloading die set.
Really interesting when you have to make your own ammo. Converting cartridge cases to another caliber, fun! Just for fun i played with converting 9×19 to 9x18 Russian, used minimum loads that would still cycle and melted battery lead for projectiles. Here comes the "cant use battery lead cause its corrosive " comments. Really, by the time you wash and remelt battery lead it is not corrosive, just soft.
Uhhh most people don't recommend using lead for batteries not because it's corrosive, but because it's highly toxic to you; the human. With proper PPE in a well ventilated and proper safety precautions it can be done of course, but lead is so cheap and it's generally just not worth the hassle to use batteries
For what rifle did you make them
shooting black powder is the second most fun i've had with my pants on.
Don't tell me it's the first most fun you had with your pants off though :D
I've just come home from doing the fireworks for a county fair, that smell, all hail!
"shhhhh" I never rode a motorcycle? or shot BP, zero muzzle loaders.
built my 1st 1858 glock chane cylinder in about 1976.
I only made BP cartridges for my 45-70 Shiloh Sharp's. Great fun.
Are your children texting about Forgotten Weapons?
ROFL: Respect our Foreign Legion
LOL: Love our Legion
STFU: Send the French Up
BOGO: Bayonet on Gras, Obviously
YMMV: Yes, minimal muzzle velocity
ISTG: Ian Shoots the Gras
WTF: Watch Tom Fire
IMHO: Ian Makes Hits Ontarget
What about - LMFAO?
@@gregedwards1087 Loving My French Army Overseas
@@Aravzil, there you go, brilliant, how long did it take for you to come up with that one?
@@gregedwards1087 Lefthanded Manipulation of French Ammo Overhand
@@hiltonian_1260, very nice, so only two out of 8 Billion have figured it out so far, well done.
seems to be a really easy and fun way to dabble into black powder shooting 👍
I always enjoy seeing historic arms put through their paces.
And when the smoke did clear, gun Jesus was still there 🇺🇸
PRAISE BE
@@LARPing_Services_LLC Arm men
Best comment ever on FW.
Ok
🙄Holly guacamole 🥑! You have to be smart,enough to read between the lines . He was being sarcastic😬 he wasn't preaching🙏 any religious doctrine . 🤦♂️ that's what he calls Ian :
I am thoroughly enjoying this series. Single shot BP rifles are simple and fun to shoot.
Terrence and Phillip go to the range...
Nice kepi and gun. 🙂
I loved watching this video whilst cradling my own Gras.
For those of you who are interested in getting 11mmR Gras cartridges, Bertram Bullet Co. in Victoria, Australia makes brass for the Gras and a number of other black powder or smokeless cartridges.
Black powder is where it's at. I've been shooting muzzleloaders since the 70's and I only like them more as time goes by. My first was an H+R huntsman, which was just an Handi-Rifle break action that they converted to black powder by plugging the breach with a stainless plug sealed with 2 O rings. In the intervening decades I've discovered more of the historical and modern models available and I love them all. In recent decades I've also discovered air power. It's more expensive to get into than BP because of the specialized pumps, carbon fiber bottles and compressors one needs to create and store high pressure air, and they're not as powerful as some of the more powerful BP guns, but you get multi shot capability not available in most BP guns. What would make me happiest would be for a major manufacturer to make modern big bore airguns....at least a few...look more like a traditional muzzleloader, but that's me, I don't know how well they would sell in a market saturated with the "black rifle" look. By the way, your uniforms are magnifique.
Excellent video as always.
didn't expect to ever say this on this channel, but i've got one!
edit: unfortunately, being british, my gas-venting safety feature isn't a scallop but a dirty big hole drilled through the breech.
Sadly, that might vent a little more gas than you'd really like.
That reload is pretty slick. With uh, “proper motivation” I could see these having a formidable rate of fire.
I finally got ammo for my Gras after nearly a decade of owning it. Still waiting for a special occasion to shoot it 'cause it's nine bucks a pop. Also gonna be fully decked out in French gear.
The speedrun wasn't even fair! Sure, the rifle wasnt set up for a lefty, but Ian clearly had the power of an obscure French rifle on his side! It's his natural environment!
At 1800 meters, it's a tiny howitzer. :)
It's slightly disappointing how there are aren't massive clouds of smoke - but of course in films they usually show a whole row of soldiers firing, not individual rifles.
The cartridge firing guns also had more efficient measurements of powder compared to muzzle loaders
Never seen a gras get shot in a row
with that much wind it was a miracle they kept their hats on. all the smoke got blown away instantly
Just enough smoke to give away your position
@@vice10mmautoOr to screen your repositioning al la light infantry skirmishing/shoot and manuvre...
We need more reproduction models of these old classics.
I believe that the issue is always that the demand is not high enough to make them cheap enough, especially if real examples are not stupidy expensive (such as in the 10's of $1,000's). I'm sure this has been a question that Ian has answered on his Q&A videos. People will say "I'd love a repro of this historic and hard to get rifle".
A manufacturer looks into it and says how many do you want made?
"Oh we have about 100 interested"
Well for us to set up and build a repro for 100 examples will cost $20,000 each.
Project dies because very few can justify $20,000 for the repro.
@jcorbett9620 a lot of those old guns aren't manufacturing friendly either in the modern day. Like i feel like there's a solid demand for c96s and lugers but they're not economical to make
The Gras is easy to find; no need for reproductions.
@@ForgottenWeapons what about a Remington Rolling Block? I've been dying to get my hands on one of those or even a reproduction.
@@jcorbett9620 Excellent point on the demand side. I wonder if a boutique gunmaker could offer a series of repros? Not necessarily setting up assembly lines, but hand-made with basic tooling. They would still be expensive. Like the stupidly expensive boutique shotguns, but without any bells and whistles to keep the price decent?
I liked that a lot
Gotta love when The Desert King of Guns is out and about firing old guns in period clothing
I've recently become interested in black powder firearms due to @capandball 's channel. I'm really enjoying this series.
To anyone wanting to load ammo for an old rifle sometime in the future- .348 Winchester brass is very versatile. It can be made into shootable ammo, if not perfect, for a variety of calibers. 11 Gras, 8mm Lebel, .50-70 US, 10.15x61R Jarman, and with a little more work, .43 Spanish. There are also a plethora of European shells that can be made from the .43 Spanish, but as thinning the casewall is involved with the
.348 conversation, l wouldn't recommend using the .348 for those. Winchester still makes a run of .348 brass every couple of years, so it isn't always available. Get some when you see it.
It’s great that with a lot of these older rifles, particularly BP with the inherently reduced chamber pressures, you can reuse that brass time and time again. Granted even using modern loading data (not including intentionally hot loads) good brass will survive a fair number of cycles before it’s not safe.
Yes indeed. I kept a couple boxes of .348 Win I found just for that reason.
French Foreign Legion: Monsieur Ian, on ne porte pas le kepi avec un queue de cheval.
Getting a gras soon and was looking to see if 32ga brass would work, thanks for confirming that for me. 🙏
I thought this was the sequel to the 'Carry On' movie 'Follow That Camel' 😂
What an obscure but fitting reference.
Jesus enjoying some fine french heaters.
Very very cool. It's modern enough I'd forgotten about fouling until Ian mentioned it during the speed run. Damn, very cool rifle and mechanics and knowledge on display here!
"Once you go black, you never go back," 🤣🤣
Awesome gun. I sympathize with the left handers pain of right hand bolt, but we adjust. Looks like a lot of fun. Thank you.
Very enjoyable content, thank you.
So cool. I want to see so many more black powder cartridge rifles demo'd like this.
This is shaping up to be one of my favorite series of the channel.
07:35 "There we go, that's how it's supposed to come out" says Ian, as his belt pouch starts dumping all his reserve ammo on the mat! 😀
Always so interesting these single shot single load bolt actions. Trapdoor rifles are also very cool too!
This and the 1871 are the only rifles left on my bucket list. Then its back to building custom muzzleloaders.
That long bayonet on a that long rifle is a reminder that there was a time when hand to hand combat meant that infantry wouldn't just be fighting a guy but also the horse he's riding.
The Gras is a great rifle and fun to shoot - looks great too.
I feel so cool owning my own gras bayonet watching this haha. Just imagine being in a 3 line deep ranks of men. You can see the bayonets of your comrades just passing your face
Watching this familiarization video was very interesting, well done Ian and Tom. The 1874 Gras was a very exquisite gun to look at.
Glad to see Ian enjoying Foie gras!
This seems to be a useful defense weapon for today...with the right brass.
Never thought of it before but the one side of that bayonet is really going to be covered in soot! One more thing to clean.
Someone get the water hot...
Got one myself including original Gevelot brass wich I alterd from berdan to boxer primers. A very fine rifle to shoot.
Thanks for the vid Ian.
Thanks for making this video
If you just squint your eyes you can pretend this is March or Die with Gene Hackman and Terence Hill.
Nothing quite like a bolt gun. They always bring a smile to my face.
Интересный ,прикид, на стрелках.🎉
The French always thinking about logistics
Shitty logistic is one of the key reasons they lost the Franco-Prussian War. Empty train cars in one place, shitloads of soldiers in another.
The absolutely shitty quality of French generals and Louis Napoleon himself was, of course, the biggest problem. But you can't beat the enemy if you can't assemble and concentrate your soldiers.
I grew up playing with one of those bayonets! The grip is unparalleled. Matt Easton should do a video on it lol... Matter of fact, I'd personally love to see a collaboration!
If a mechanical device can be said to be beautiful or elegant then military rifles of the late 19th century are beautiful and elegant. It's part of the reason they're so collectable.
I noticed this was the same weapon Jean Claude Van Dam used on the movie Legionaire. It made a big impression on me because I never saw a single-shot rifle before like that.
Ian, just a suggestion: keep your ammo on your left side, perhaps all the way back to your hip. After firing, with your forehand, tilt the rifle counterclockwise about 30 to 40 degrees, and work bolt left-handed. To reload, just lay your next round on the side of the open breech (which should fall down to the bottom), close bolt, and rotate rifle back to firing position. Practice makes perfect. Less hassle than the way you were doing it.
I will bet that receiving fire from 1800m (especially) in 1870 would be somewhat disconcerting and more so if it were 40 or 50 Gras in volley fire. Just the rounds impacting around you would be bad enough but if they get a couple of your buddies you are thinking "We are still over a kilometre and a half away, what will happen at 300m?" Area fire, even with bolt action rifles has its place even today. All you need do is get close enough that the impact is seen and heard, if you get one or two of them, even better.
Volley fire was a tactic to provide a degree of indirect fire on distant groups. Whole units firing in unison could put a reasonable amount of lead on a given spot.
@@petesheppard1709 Since there's no way anyone was picking an individual target without a killer optic. "Shoot at the dark, Prussian spot right over there!" Crazy ass ranges aside, I imagine the real horror started - for the Prusso-Germans - when they closed within 500m.
@@scottmccrea1873 I cannot imagine being packed into a shoulder-to-shoulder formation and just 'taking it'...
@@petesheppard1709 Just like the US Civil War and WW1. Cannot imagine just marching straight ahead while rifles, canister shot or, later, machine guns just blast away.
@@scottmccrea1873 AND yet, most soldiers survived the carnage--sort of...
At least the crosswind cleared the smoke quickly.
COOL Kepi Blanc
hello from Albuquerque
That rifle is phat with a capital G
In Tucson/Three Points for at least a week visiting my parents and sister.🤠👍🇺🇲
I have a sword bayonet for that rifle for being over 140 years old it's in very good condition would still do the job no problem
I have one of these museum pieces I was wondering about it's history thanks for the lesson
I was expecting Ian to lead a charge, Mle 1892 in hand
As a left handed shooter, it is always great to see Ian shooting bolt action rifles. I don't have a bolt action rifle, but I do shoot rifles in a similar manner as Ian and when I do get my hands on a milsurp bolt action, I will definitely be shooting it just like Ian does. Otherwise, the Modele 1874 Gras looks like a solid rifle for it's time.
This makes me think that a really cool video would be a splitscreen of different eras of military weapon against the clock. Musket vs minié ball vs trapdoor vs bolt action vs clip fed semi vs assault rifle. “How many shots can I put on target in 2 minutes.”
Looking at how polished the Gras is as an infantry weapon for its time really gives you an idea about why exactly France, prior to WW2, was still considered /the/ military land force in Europe. That's a really polished action for the time, especially with the simple efficiency of the feed tray.
The logistics issue of the Chassepot paper cartridge is well illustrated by the French navy. Who did not change to the brass cartridge Gras post 1870 war but kept the paper cartridge Chassepot. They were ship based and had all the materials and tools to make them on board ship not to mention men to do the making. So could turn them out to the proper standard and the Chassepot paper cartridge, when properly made, was very adequate. Eventually replaced by the Kropatchek tubular magazine rifle.
Chile had two standart guns during the saltpeter war, one was the comblain, the other the gras. Was a great logistical advantage over the peruvians and bolivians who were equiped with sniders, chassepots, remingtons and even minnie's (altough those were given to irregulars if i'm not mistaken)
Gras sounds like a sound a crow would make. "Graw! Graw!"
The unaltered 1874 Gras already has gas venting grooves in the bolt and receiver, they just enlarged them with the M80 mod.
Thank's.
LE PIÈCE DE RÉSISTANCE!
1800 meters is an expression of purest optimism.
It was for volley fire to create a beaten zone/hit an area target like assembling troop formations.
I hope that the Berdan 1&2 will receive attention in the black powder series.
stay tuned :)
It's funny that one of my uncles have a Gewerhr 88(/05?), made in 1888 same year that JACK THE RIPPER started his murder spree. My grandfather has a browning model 1910 with some FN grips and seeing that pistol in Kingsman and later learning that it was the model used to assassinate Arch Duke Ferdinand. It's crazy how time seems to warp when you hold things that has a part in history.
The same year that the Lee magazine rifle was first adopted, and my great grandmother was born. She died in1988.
It's really nice n cool shot of gun
Légionnaires!
🎉 i have 2 of them fore repear 1 infanterie 1 Cavalerie bot 1866-74. The cavelerie is from the fabric of the german citry and i have the barjonet also 😊
I live in the UK and have an immaculate Gras with all matching numbers. Doesn’t have the safety cut out which makes it rare. It’s for sale if anyone’s interested
Ian doing the lefty version compared to all righties is like shooting another rifle 😂
I really want one now. Maybe we will get new ammo!
5:30 Oh, merde ! 😂 Le Gras, c’est la vie !
It would be interesting to have high speed footage of the gun with and without the Bayonet fixed. The resonance is probably quite different with that sabre hung on it.
Isn't this the same cartridge they adopted in a revised format for aerial machine gun use against balloons? With smokeless powder and incendiary projectiles?
Yes
Lovely cosplay as always
Look just like the gun in the beginning of the movie "The Mummy."
"Le Gras, c'est la vie... "