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Village of the Angels - Take Two Doctor Who Review
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- čas přidán 6. 06. 2023
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Others may have said this, and I only watched the episode once so I may be mistaken, but I think the "getting sent back in time from the '49 years ago' version of the village is instantly fatal" thing only happened because the village was cut off from normal space-time. Under normal circumstances, the Angels could safely fling their victims further into the past, but because of the isolation thingy and/or the Flux, the '49 years ago' version of the village was a temporal dead-end
I assumed that people couldn’t be sent back twice in this story because the town had been taken out of time. So the first time you are sent back, you’re sent back to the beginning of time for the space. If you’re sent back from there, you’re sent back to nothingness.
The Angels are the Borg of Doctor Who, brilliant concept with diminishing returns as they are continually demystified.
Worst thing Moffat ever did was make the Weeping Angels a recurring villain, if they were a once and done villain they'd honestly be the best of all time
@danhayward3057 sorry but i really don't like the argument that the Weeping Angels should've stayed in Blink. They were popular before and people wanted them back, they've become (arguably) one of the most iconic dr who Villains on par with the daleks and cybermen. So people are going to want to see more of them.
The rogue Angel was one of my favorite twists in this story, or any story, in a while. I haven't rewatched, but I remember my jaw falling open and my eyes going wide at it. So good! In regard to the casual cruelty, I could no-prize an excuse for the little girl's reaction, but I agree it's Chibnall's lack of thought or care that's the true reason. I hadn't really noticed the patter before watching all the take twos, but now I can't unsee it.
I'm with you on being super disappointed in this episode. I did not understand the overwhelming positive reception. There are things to like, for sure; The story starts out strong enough, the atmosphere is great, the cold open is intriguing, the secondary characters are pretty good all around, but once the Angels start getting explored it falls apart. I was actually quite excited for the episode when it started, but even removing the Flux stuff, this story quickly reveals that it doesn't really work.
I don't have a problem with subsequent writers taking concepts created by previous writers and using them in their stories, but I do have a real issue with how the Angels were handled by Chibnall, because it felt kind of disrespectful and cynical. For example, nobody surviving being touched by the Angels twice; That's not just a minor retcon, that's literally the opposite of what was already established. It's immersion-breaking and it shows a lack of care for what you appropriate.
Likewise, the Angels' mechanics are cheated throughout the story, especially the "image of an Angel becomes an Angel" thing. An Angel can just jump into your phone or telekinetically draw itself in your machine and just pop out now? That's cheating! The original point was that staring at an Angel imprints them on your mind and you become one, not an Angel took a selfie and now it can pop out of your phone.
And finally, the whole idea that the Angels are working with the Division is so stupid. Did they sign waivers? Did they have to go through training? It makes what was once a spooky, unknowable nightmare creature, even to the Time Lords, and makes them just another boring species with banal motivations and a comprehensible existence.
I really loved Jericho's fight against the Angels, especially when he's talking to one through the TV.
Of all the times where this era is overly cruel, this is the one that tracks the most. The angels have been established repeatedly as being *extremely* cruel. Letting the Doctor know how Bob died being one of the most prominent examples. Also, why do you think the angels don't just zap people back instantly (because they totally could just zoom across a field if you turn your back and zap you), but let them run in fear and have people realize what's going on? It's because they play with their food. If I remember, there's even a line from Claire's angel to the Doctor saying "it's enjoying watching you figure it out".
(The grandparents getting killed obviously doesn't apply here; I fully agree that moment just fell flat on its face)
Easily the best story of the entirety of Flux. Love the attention to mood and atmosphere, Claire and Jericho are solid side characters, and the idea of a rogue Weeping Angel inhabiting a host's mind is a good one. Just a shame the last two episodes spoiled any goodwill this story had.
I know you said "best of" not "great"...
...And technically this is an episode 5/6 problem...
but why even bother turning the Doctor to an Angel if ALL you're doing it for is to reunite her with an antagonist?
Surely Chibs should know better?
Turning the Doctor to an angel is a cool idea, maybe have her companions figure out how to change her back while she's stuck in some Angel quantum reality?
Now that story idea is kinda shot for the series. Maybe someone one Big Finish can do it better?
Yes, I agree. That bit with the grandmother (who's obviously been bullied and belittled by her asshole husband) dying as well and Peggy just being 'meh' about it, that struck me as so wrong the first time I saw it. These episodes did bring up some interesting things with the angels, most of which make a lot more sense than some of the things brought up in epsiodes like Angels Take Manhattan (if anything that holds the image of an angel is an angel, and the Statue of LIberty is an angel then, based on the all the merch out there with Lady LIberty on it, we're all screwed) but the Angels themselves are almost as overused as the Master and the Daleks at this point. All I want for this newest season of Doctor Who is for them to come up with some new bad guys or, failing that, bring back some of the more obscure ones who haven't been seen since the 1970's/80's. Also, off-topic, I love that shade of lipstick on you - it looks great!
Crazy how the angels haven't had a solo episode since 2012, and yet they feel so overused and bland. Time to move on from them I think before they become boring
I quite enjoy everything with the Angels here, but I’m not too keen on the Division aspects. It’s a real shame that Jericho’s actor is a massive transphobe irl.
Yeah, don't remind me of that.
I remember really enjoying the first half of the episode, with its subtle creepy atmosphere, genuinely suspenseful tone and fun character interactions (Jericho is a favourite of mine, sucks to hear his actor's a POS). Literally the second the word "Division" was spoken, all my excitement and goodwill just evaporated, and it ended up leaving me feeling very disappointed. It didn't bother me when I rewatched the episode recently, and I definitely have more positive opinions on it now, but I'm still rather put out that a potentially great standalone episode got dragged into Chibnall's ill-conceived fanfiction concept
I would say it's the best of the Flux season, due to it feeling like the most fleshed out pre-Flux reengineering. This could have been something a lot better, and maybe still would have led to the same overall ending. Solid 6.75/10
I had a lovely nightmare that I think was inspired by this episode. In the nightmare, it was demons/extradimsional creatures that caught my eye. The longer I looked at them. The more of them got brought out into our plane. At some point they didn't need me anymore and they just clawed their way into our dimension
I think the reveal that Peggy was the old woman was supposed to make us think, "Hang on, does this mean she (and therefore Yaz and Dan) never gets back to her own time".
How you feel towards the Sontaran episode is exactly how I feel about the Angels episode in Flux. It’s fun the see the featured alien again, but it’s held back by everything going on in the overarching story drastically. I don’t think the displaced village thing ever gets resolved... similar to how Russia never got undid iirc.
Professor Eustacius Jericho should have been a permanent companion.
Change my mind.
In Re: the Angels sending people back twice equalling death vs prior instances where such didn't occur that way. I immediately assumed that it worked that way in this story/arc because of the nature of how the universe was destabilizing -- certain things didn't work the same way as they did when reality was more stable as was the case for TATM (New York 1938).
17:37 I feel like this can be explained through 2 ways. A: The line addressing it comes from someone who has no context for what the Angels are capable of beyond what she's seen and b: since the village at those 2 points in time were isolated and disconnected from the rest of time/space (I think that's how it's explained but I'm not 100% sure since I've not rewatched it recently) which could be interpreted as meaning that the only place where those sent back in time in that situation was to the village's other time zone, and thus once in the earlier time zone there would be nowhere for them to be sent back in time to.
I don't think the people that make the show have their heads around less is more, Daleks, Cybermen, Angels et al always seem to work better as threats when they are one or two rather than there being legions of them
I feel like this episode juggled way too many traits of the Angels at once. I liked their use in Angels Take Manhattan because they felt simple again, all the rules of Blink and nothing more, for the most part. They're just too complicated here
For me this was the best of the Flux series, but I absolutely agree that it suffers from being part of Flux, and that the Claire and Peggy time loop aspects really should have been exploited better. Too much of the Chibnal era comes across to me as bad sci-fi written by people who don't understand sci-fi. This episode comes across to me as a sci-fi episode written by someone who does understand sci-fi but then shoehorned into a series written by people who don't understand sci-fi.
This is the episode I liked the most of Flux. After Moffatt had ruined the weeping angels by over saturating them, this episode actually made them scary again. Almost repairing the damage Moffatt had done.
The thing to remember is these aren’t the blink angles cause moffat got rid of them at the end of the angels two parter in season 5 by throwing them into the crack from Amy’s bedroom taking them out of existence theses are the moffat angels from the angels take manhattan that have slightly different abilities that we may not fully know yet I will agree that the stuff with the village does feel like an afterthought in the final version probably due to have that episode the season needed to breathe better getting cut so the flux had to become a bigger part of the episode most if the part with the doctor is best part until flux has to brought in the episode
I remember enjoying this episode and thinking the shock that the angels where working for the division was good until the episode ended and I had time to process everything.
I've always found the more we learn about the Angels the less they work. In Blink they seem so alien in the sense that we dont know why they do what they do, we can't comprehend it etc. Kind of a H.P. Lovecraft kind of thing.
However the episode badically makes them alien assassins for hire and ruins that
I recently rewatched the season, and honestly it felt like Chibnall didn't want to stop. There are enough plotlines running for three seasons here! The Sontarans with their temporal incursions, the Ravagers/Division, and the Grand Serpent elements could each make for a season's theme. The Ravagers in particular felt like they were recycled from a rejected "Sapphire and Steel" outline, which (if true) is a shame - they would work much better in that setting. But still, any one of them would have provided enough material for a six episode mini-season.
More specifically on this episode, you didn't like Peggy's response to the deaths of her great aunt and uncle. As someone who experienced abusive supposed carers as a child, I felt that it was spot on. He was cruel and abusive; she didn't protect young girl. Plus, children tend to be less empathetic. So the line that he was never kind? That just felt right. (I agree that Chibnall's cruelty is persistent and excessive, though.) Had this been the plot for its own season, it would have been interesting to see the interactions between both Peggies and the aunt and uncle - the uncle storming out after berating the child, and the woman glaring at him as they pass, for example.
Kevin McNally is always a win. Professor Jericho wasn't his first foray into the show, either. He was a guest character in "The Twin Dilemma" (in which he ended up with an outfit to rival the Sixth Doctor's). He'll always be Mr Gibbs, though.
How am I JUST realizing that the actor who played Jericho is Mr. Gibbs from the Pirates movies?!?!?
@@CouncilofGeeks Because he's that good, and Mr Gibbs is nothing like Prof Jericho!
I don't think this is a great story, but it is the best part of Flux. It feels like a standalone script that Chibnall rewrote to tie into Flux. Wouldn't have been shocked if that was what happened. I'd love to see that standalone version.
Thank you for the video, Vera!
My personal problem with this episode is the same one with every episode post-"Don't Blink": the Doctor Who TV series keeps revealing more information about the Angels and making them less interesting and mysterious, such as they are not able to send people twice or too old(?) back in time (as you mentioned, it seems a continuity error...), and they work for the Division. The latter only happens because it supposed to sell the organization as this big space Illuminati group controlling the universe behind the scenes. Compared to their first appearances, the Angels no longer feel like these evil entities who exist for messing with their victims' lives and hiding at plain sight.
Character-wise, I really like this episode. Claire and Professor Jericho are very good here. However, the young and old Peggy's plot is just that, a plot point for the sake of creating a twist in the climax. You are not supposed to care for young Peggy losing people around her (even if they are abusive relatives) and apparently being forced to grow up to old age inside the village by the Angels. It is really bad! And later episodes just ignore all that.
By the way, Vera, about your confusion over the Angels' motivations in the story: the Division's Angels (the regular ones) were trying to hunt down the rogue one hiding inside Claire's mind. At first, the rogue Angel hijacks the Tardis to send it towards the village and tries to make a deal with the Doctor in exchange for its safety from the Division. However, at the end, the same Angel makes a new deal with the other Angels, betraying and selling out the Doctor to the Division. Ironically, in the next episode, the Division does not honor the deal, catches the Angel anyway and extracts the information inside it.
A lot of these episodes could have been better if they were given more attention and not tied into the whole Flux thing (which I still don't fully understand now). The Flux storyline was a big detriment in my opinion. This series had it good parts...but not enough to hold it all together
It had an assortment of great characters and scenes, but it never cohered into a genuine episode. I put all the blame on tying it into Flux.
There was NO reason for that girl to stay behind in 1901. Alone, with no guardians. That's just cruel!
Agreed about the lack of acknowledgement of death as an issue, but the trope of death as punishment also kinda bothers me, so I actually in a way prefer death being unfair and random. Like I hate the implied moralism of many slasher films. But then the girl's reaction implies death as punishment, so it's kinda worst of both worlds in this case.
Villiage of the Angels is my second favourite doctor who episode after The Haunting of Villa Diodati. The mood and atmosphere are perfect, i love how much of a threat Division feels (the chills i get with the line "you are recalled... to Division), and Jodie's perfromace is just incredible throughout.
One thing that bothered me was that the angels had their faces covered too much, I mean what made them initially terrifying was when you first see them, they have their faces covered but the moment you turn around and then back, they're uncovered and baring their fangs and thats when you know you;re fucked. A lot of the angels in this episode tended to keep their faces covered when they should have been uncovered...? Like Chibnall didn't quite understand how to write them.
The whole thing about Peggy only acknowledging her uncle feels like a bad continuity mess-up. Perhaps in an earlier draft of the script only her uncle did die, and that scene was filmed with her reaction, and then they went back and re-shot the scene so both of them died, but they either forgot to, or didn't care enough about, changing the script to reflect that and re-film Peggy's reaction.
15:17 I think this part could’ve been remedied if the girl had added something along the lines of, “She always took his side,” indicating even the sympathetic aunt was complicit in her husband’s abuse. It would’ve at least explained her apathy.
What do you think?
That would have been better. To at least acknowledge she died even in a “no sympathy’s for you” way.
I loved this episode, it's got some good characters, good atmosphere. That twist at the end. But I agree on your point about the aunt dying. It owuld have fitted better that she survived and then was around to take care of Peggy. Again though it does feel like a lot of things cramped in because of Flux not having enough episodes to give it breathing room.
I don't think we ever had a truly bad Angel story. Even "The Angels Take Manhattan" is pretty decent. I still prefer "War of the Sontarans" as the best chapter of Flux. The next one, "Survivors of the Flux", is certainly the weakest chapter of the serial, though, but even that one is inoffensively decent, imo.
I’d agree, though I love The Angels Take Manhattan. The Angels are such a great antagonist to use every now and then
this is the best Flux episode.
which is a really, REALLY low bar.
Village of the Angels is by far the best episode of Flux, which isn't too surprising considering it's the only one Chibnall didn't entirely write!
I hated this episode so much when it aired, and I have to admit I haven't rewatched it (or any of Flux since it aired). I remember so many things not making any sense - the village falling off into nothingness, the image of an angel working with sketches and tvs, and there being conflict between whether these angels are teleporting from one location to another or just getting born, as well as the usual muddle of flux stuff. I'm glad to hear there are some redeeming features, but I probably won't be watching again for quite some time!
I like Chibnall's casual cruelty. Like Lovecraft, it's an acknowledgement of a cold uncaring universe. The UK doesn't regard children in the saccarine way Americans do. A great deal of British sci-fi is about the Id of children, Midwich Cuckoos, The Changes, Children of the Stones. Plus, the tacit acceptance of the wife of this man and how wrong that is rings true of late postwar 50s.
Guess you were scraping rock bottom trying to think of a joke for the intro.
I rewatched all 6 in one go, and I completely agreed with you on first watch. By this point I was bummed how much was going on and I could TELL it was going nowhere. But all 6 in one go, its the only one not cluttered by flux, tonally its surprisingly dark for doctor who and I really enjoyed it for that. Best directed episode of Chibnall's run. I still think the angels are broken and peggy's guardians are the worst one-dimensional dumb characters ever, but I dunno. Being able to not wait for bad build up of Flux, and being able to ignore stuff that I know goes nowhere, its just nicely creepy. Low bar for chibnalls who, but last time I think I had high expectations because of Maxine Alderton, and it fell short, but now with low expectations Maxine Alderton does elevate the usual convoluted mess of Chibnalls writing. I also love Jericho but I was so mad the first time that ep 4 was STILL introducing new characters, in hindsight I wouldnt actually cut much of it its just all so thinly included and ep 6 didnt pay any of it off.
I was worried when I first watched this ep that jericho was gonna be angel fodder. I'm glad he got a bit more than that. I do agree with you about the aunt but I can also somewhat see peggy's reaction being so 'meh' due to just being totally emotionally exhausted from everything that's happened, so the most she could react was 'he was never that nice to me'. anyway I think a lot of the praise for this ep came from the speculation of where the cliffhanger would lead, and that being so disappointing and. outright bad. which is something I rarely ever say about dr who. hopefully means that it's looked at a little more in a balanced way than 'oh wow that cliffhanger was so good that means the whole thing is excellent' but idk could just be my perspective on it lol
I hate the kids reactions to the death of him also. Like children who are abused don't know they are - adults often don't know they are! The couples behaviour to her is her normal. And victims of abuse (aware of it or not) still bond very much to their abuser(s). Her reaction is so illogical, but I think her whole character was. It felt like she was gonna portray this eerie, too mature for age and without childrens normal emotional impulsivness, but instead she is kinda robot like, like cold and uncanny. (I don't mean to say the actor is or isn't that, I think it has a lot to do with the directions on child acting).
I'm also autistic, and this kid gives me the vibes of they wanted to give her autistic traits but instead they just made her incabable of feelings. And ok, sure, yes, a lot of autistic people can struggle with their own emotions and/or empathy, and with conveying/communicating emotions/empathy. Making allistic people view us as cold and uncanny. But there's always more to that, and if your'e gonna do that portrayal you need to be aware of doing it.
I thought this the strongest episode of Jodie's run and still think this
Totally agree about that Peggy's great aunt should be kept alive. Not at least to take care of Peggy, when all of the rest travels along to Turkey in the next episode. I must say that the other parts of the episode still makes me like it, though. Professor Jerico was great and the angels were scary. To me, this is far better than the angels takes Manhattan. Must also say that Jodie's performance is very good through this episode.
It's weird how they don't even acknowledge what happened to Peggy in the next episode, not even a single throwaway line explaining that they left her at an orphanage or something, they just sort of forget about her
@@christianwise637 Yeah, that's so odd, since professor Jerico was so protective of the girl on that field, behaving almost like an old uncle or something. But then, we heard of it never again.
Yeah, Jericho was great!
the snooty straw man scientist like the Professor in the 10th Doctor episode "Midnight"....the one that kept denying exactly what he saw because he had preconceived notices of how the universe works....yeah, i was glad the professor in this episode was not like the other guy
i think this episode was the strongest of flux, and I enjoyed watching it, which i didnt for halloween and once, upon time. It wasnt great, but overall good. episodes 5 and 6 of flux were just truely terrible.
Off-topic but you're gonna have a tough time with all the trailers that dropped today, depending which ones you decide to cover of course. They won't let you catch a break, will they. 🙂
I quite like the cruelty of showing minor characters to be nice then killing them off 😂 definitely weird that the kid didn't care her nan died tho
The whole "she has an image of an angel is her mind" thing is absolutely fucking genius and I love it so much
I liked the stone pun 😂😂😂
For one of the smaller What If Doctor Who Wasn't Axed ideas, I wrote out that Professor Jericho comes into the show in Season 60, and becomes a permanent companion along with Dan, Yaz, Cornelius, and the Eighteenth Doctor.
I didn't care for this episode myself, I picked up on the lone angel betraying them to the other angels pretty quickly so I lost interest the beginning parts were pretty decent but it was my least favorite of the episodes among a really abysmal series
In regards to your numbers point, I've always found it strange that (in the show at least) we've never had a solo angel story. Surely that should be the default, creatures that freeze in the sight of any other person should always be operating alone. They should hunt alone, not in packs, except for in extraordinary circumstances. In Blink you can justify it by their desire for The Tardis, and maybe in Manhattan you could argue that they have banded together to run their human farm, but in both this ep and Flesh and Stone have them working as a group for seemingly no reason. It feels like a fundamental misunderstanding of their basic concept, which is surprising because Moffatt does it more than anyone!
I think this was the best episode of flux
Village of the angels is awesome. I get flux doesn't stick the landing completely but it never is not fun.
I genuinely don't get the complaint of being cruel and harsh and unfair. Why can't things be like that?
I don't care about lore changes in ref to can't go back more than two times etc.
Woah no comments yet what a novelty XD my memory of this ep is that it was in the upper half of flux but that really says nothing at all