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Colt Richards Conversion 1860 Army
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- čas přidán 1. 08. 2024
- Colt, like all the other manufacturers in the US, was prevented from making cartridge revolvers by the Rollin white patent, which finally expired in 1869. This left them limited to their percussion revolvers, the 1849, 1851, 1860, and 1862 models in particular. These were phenomenally popular guns, but quickly becoming obsolete in the face of the new cartridge technology. Colt would introduce the Peacemaker in 1873, but in that brief gap between the patent expiration and their new purpose-built cartridge revolver they needed something to put on the market.
The answer was a series of cartridge conversions - guns which could fire the new cartridges but could be built from the large existing stockpiles of percussion revolver components. The first such gun was the Thuer conversion, followed by the much better Richards conversion, and finally the simplified Richards-Mason conversion (in addition to the purpose-built Open Top).
These conversion were offered form the Colt factory on all the major models of percussion revolver, with the small pocket guns the most popular. Because Colt had a large supply of existing parts and could sell these guns cheaper than their other new designs, the conversions would remain available and selling through the 1870s.
The Richards conversion is distinctive for having a barrel-mounted rear sight, as well as a remarkably modern floating firing pin.
/ forgottenweapons
Mounting the ejection rod in the loading rod hole was brilliant. If you didn't know, you would never notice.
Believe it or not, a wooden dowel is faster than a mounted ejection rod, I have two 1883 pattern Reichsrevolvers, they have no ejection rod, only wooden dowels, turned out it is much faster, lol.
Whenever Ian does old west revolvers I keep thinking back to the gun store scene in The Quick and the Dead.
I ain't got farmers hands. 😎
Or Tuco in the gun store in "The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly"...
Herod: Alright, I'll be a good samaritan. What's the cheapest gun you got? Not in the case, what's the cheapest piece of worthless crap you got in this whole miserable store?
Kid: *takes out this exact revolver* 5 bucks.
Herod: Done!
@@amberyooper CARTRIDGES!
@@smithwesson1896 Not the exact revolver.....but an 1851 (Maybe an 1861) Navy conversion in 38 Long Outside lubed (Heel base bullet). That is the cartridge used in the revolver. It later became 38 Long Colt, but with a conventional inside lubed bullet, and hollow base.
Just want to point out that the 22LR is still a heeled bullet. That's a good reference point for someone trying to understand the concept you were trying to get across. But you did do a great job of explaining it :)
+crazyfvck Yep, good point!
+Brandon Blount because that shape is difficult to fit in a standard cartridge.
+Brandon Blount That's... something a few kids out in the woods do, with pellets and nailgun charges.
It's dubious to say the least. I could tell a story or two, but poor Ian would be horrified. (Note: Crossman Pro77's don't handle that kinda pressure)
Getting one of these cap and ball guns converted to use cartridges must have been like having a Model T Ford and getting a modern V8 engine put into it. Massive technological advancement.
Both those things would make the best two Christmas presents ever!
Ethan Dobbins - The Yeehaw Channel reload time tho
@@EthanPDobbins, what's your point?
They used leftover parts from the 1860 with new parts made so yeah. It's like getting an "UNSUED" model T with a new V8.
That sounds like something "Tim the tool man" Taylor would build... I'd totally love to have one though! 😂
Enjoy all the videos. Ian does a great job, with the history and logistics of all the firearms.
I love when you make videos with guns like this, keep it up!
Ian. Keep up the amazing work! I've learnt quite a bit of weapon history from you.
I love this freaking channel man, you do a great job. Thank you for these vids
I read that Colt marketed the idea that you could send your cap and ball 1860 into Colt, and they would convert it and send it back into you
"...which leads to problems" Ian, your subtle humor is priceless :)
I have an Original 71/72 Open Top in very good condition and a book mentioning my ancestor who used it. Ian, if you want to do a video on it, hit me up! I live in CA but I could drive to AZ some time.
Thanks for a very interesting video regarding the conversion era. I've been in black powder guns since about 71, with a Lincoln derringer kit, and have about a dozen revolvers and rifles which I enjoy shooting. I'm waiting on delivery of an Uberti 1858, 38 special conversion, which i just bought off Gunbroker. I look forward to an interesting bit of "alternate history". There's just something about the smell of black powder, the smoke, and the gentle percussion of its fire. Thanks again, Semper Fi, John McClain
Yesterday I saw almost the exact opposite to this revolver! It was a new Uberti 1873 SAA that was chambered in .44 and muzzle loading!!!!!! Everything including frame, loading gate, ejector etc was from a standard SAA but the cylinder had to be removed from the frame to load powder cap and ball then inserted back in the frame before firing. This abortion of a revolver was made by Uberti in order to allow the weapon to be legal in the UK! Talk about one step forward (1870's) and three steps back (2018's)
So you carry extra preloaded cylinders, like you would carry extra magazines for a semi-auto. Boom! Or should I say pew pew pew.
Wait. Cap&ball handguns r legal in Britain?
@@TheMrPeteChannel Yes they are, also rifles, shotguns and cartridge handguns with some modifications. It's a common misbelief that all guns are banned here :)
@@avago2day Time for another Glorious Revolution than chap! (This is humor! I'm not advocating gun violence!)
@@TheMrPeteChannel The Real Glorious Revolution of 1689 was non-violent. It installed William & Mary on the throne and created the English Bill of Rights one of which was the right to keep and bear arms. This right only applied to protestants.
Love. Forgotten weapons look for a new episode everyday
Very informative video, Thanks!
I just bought a Cimarron replica of that gun. It’s a very cool revolver to shoot especially when you can appreciate the history of it.
is the replica in the original .44 colt, or is it changed to the more common .45 colt?
@@crazysilly2914 I have a couple of the Cimarron open top replicas. One in .45 Colt and one in .38 special. I think they are also available in 44 Special maybe?
@@GRMGR1 .44 Special? Never heard of it. Is it like a gimped down version of .44 magnum, similar to how .38 special is a gimped down version of .357 mag?
@@GRMGR1 Is cimarron a gun replica company like uberti or pieta?
Very interesting video as always.:D
As usual, great video Ian. Any chance you might do some "forgotten ammo" videos explaining the evolution of early cartidges and showing some real live examples of such? I think it would be a great complement to see how modern ammo has been developed along with the wonderful firearms you show us in your videos.
Best regards from Argentina,
Andrei
He actually did one on a shotgun that had iron cartridges that you pre loaded and put in made in way early 1800
YES, like the 32-20 (aka 32 WCF). It was a widely popular round at the turn of the century. And is now nearly unknown. Heaven is a 32-20, Model '92, Winchester at the range.
Heel bullets were indeed an evolutionary step on the way to modern cartridges, and they were frought with problems. HOWEVER the heel bullet didn't disappear. I give you the humble .22 rimfire, Short, Long & Long Rifle (and the BB & CB caps as well). When pressure is moderate & projectiles are small with accuracy (or economy) is paramount, their shortcomings are inconsequential.
DOUGout
one of my personal favorite revolvers to shoot.
1860 Army with cartridge conversion is the most prettiest thing.
Honestly. Looks almost netter than the SAA, just not as functional.
@@samwecerinvictus Exactly.
I agree
Beautiful firearm!!
Sweet, sweet gun!
I just bought one of the Cimarron 1860 Richards conversions in .44 Special w/8in barrel.
Love this Conversion Revolver, want in a future to have an Uberti/Cimarron replica in .38 special
I would buy one for sure
Good job
Really neat pistol.
that's a nice looking gun
The back part is called the conversion ring. The improved version kept the black powder hammer and used the sight in the hammer as it was just less complicated with the complicated spring rebound firing pin removed.
I have both versions.
also more safer I think, because you can’t slam the back of the hammer and have the cartridge go off
Where do you get the .44 colt cartridges BTW?
@@crazysilly2914 Yes you can!
Very nice
Wasnt there also an 1860 conversion called the "long cylinder conversion" that fired the .44 henry rimfire and didnt have the backplate or loading gate?
I look at that skinny little joint between barrel and handle and wonder how that didnt fail,,a bridge over the cylinder looks so strong,,
Do you ever get punt guns coming through your auction house? I would like to see a video on them. Thank you for sharing!
Nice revolver to look at.
I can’t find a Forgotten Weapons on Colt 1851 Navy or Colt 1860 Army…major bummer.
I've heard that a number of Colt revolvers were converted to cartridge by independent gunsmiths prior to the patent expiration
It's one of those things that was done but you don't really see a lot of.usually those types of conversions will lack loading gates or ejectors
you can still get aftermarket loading lever to ejector rod kits for Cap&ball replicas. in the case of the Remington New Army, it's just welded on to the sliding cylinder pin, and locked closed with the OG loading lever.
i've pondered getting a kit for mine, but you loose one shot when you do that, so....
This was interesting 👍😆 .
very cool
there is one shrouded in mystery in our family, we just had it appraises at over 30k after my grandpa passed away last year. the thing about this gun was that it was in the possession of an old woman living in southern Michigan who allegedly came from MO, grandpa told me he called her grandma but i don't think she was a relative, but when he was a boy in the 1940's maybe early 50's he went into her house that no longer stands and got the pistol out of a dresser. his mom caught him with it and scolded him. before she put the the gun back she said Donnie, there is a really interesting story that goes with this gun and some someday i'll tell you about it. that conversation never happened, always been speculation by my grandpa that it was involved the the james gang as the woman claimed to have been his neighbor in MO at one point. no idea what the truth was.
Could you imagine the stories these old guns could tell? I have an original Henry made in 1865 thats fully silver plated and factory engraved by Samuel Hoggson. It's estimated value is around $175,000. I wish there was a way to know who owned it, where it has been, and what it had seen. All I know is my dad traded several guns for it about 6 years ago. The owner before him, who was in his 60s, said his grandfather got it for painting a house in the 1930s or 1940s and that it has been hidden in the bottom of a cedar chest wrapped in quilts at his grandparents house. So many of these old guns have a history lost to time. It's a shame.
ok, I've bought about all the modern guns I think are worth the money, glock, berreta, sig, s&w, fn and ruger. what would be a good affordable antique firearm that may be affordable now but will be worth a decent sum in say 20 years? also fun to take to the range on occasion.
Any idea if the barrel was cut down? The original 1860's had 8" barrels but I don't know if these conversions were sold in different lengths.
Probably not, Colt was making all kinds of barrel lengths by this point.
Weirdly, the RIA website stated that it is in 45 colt. Misprint?
Load 6 and drop the firing pin between that cartridges. Yes, it will drop between them.
You ever notice how in some Westerns, when they have a certain sidearm in their movies, they make sure that every character wields some variant of that firearm?
In The Good, the Bad and the Ugly, most of them have the 1851 Navy.
In Josey Wales, they have the 1860 Army.
And other films just use the SAA.
It's what's cheap or what's in the prop house
I wish Uberti would productbthe Richard's type l. I have their type ll Richard's and the Richards & Mason and a open top 1872. They're my favorite revolvers. I'd love to have an original.
I know that it's been years since this video was made. I just got one of these old revolvers. It's not based on the 1860 Colt though. I'm having fun figuring out what it is, lol.
Great video Ian. I love cartridge conversions. I seem to remember that a .44 rimfire was used in some revolvers. Was it the same cartridge as the .44 Henry rimfire? And what make/model revolvers was it used in?
+J.L. Roberts I've never read of Colt making any 1860 Army conversions in .44 RF, but they did make the 1871/72 open top (from-scratch revolver, not a conversion) in .44 RF, which was indeed the .44 Henry.
Some sources claim the 1871/72 wasn't in .44 Henry but a proprietary .44 "Stetson" rimfire cartridge, which is bupkis; .44 "Stetson" was simply .44 Henry ammunition manufactured using bullets swaged by a process patented by a man named Stetson.
+GuyKappe Thx for your input.
Absolutely beautiful.
Is there any reason for those pistols to have tiny sights? Seems to be a common similarity for firearms in that period
I wish Uberti would make a replica on the 1862 frame size.
I know the SSA sold for I think $16-$17 to the civilian market ($13 for the US military contract) when first released. I wonder what these sold for brand new?
I know I am real later to this video. I have owned and shot a Richard's conversion for over 50 years. Good video. Many, mine included, were converted by Colt. The way to tell if Colt did the conversion is the frame and barrel serial number match but the number in front of the trigger guard will be different. According to Colt when the revolvers came in to be converted the triggers guards were remover and put in a barrel. The grips went into a different barrel and back straps in another. The grips on mine are stamped US. The trigger guard has a different number than the rest of the revolver. There is a new cylinder on my revolver. The new cylinders are a few thousands bigger in diameter than the original c&b cylinders. Most were sent to the Tex/Mec border. Mine has been cut to 5 1/2 inch barrel. Colt said they did this to manny so they would fit in pockets better. Colt can not provide letters on the 1871s as a fire burned the records.
How do you get a hold of the 44. colt heeled centerfire cartridges?
I make my own. Cast a soft lead 200grain two grove bullet and size through the bottom grove down to .429. Then load 29 grains of black powder and bump the bullet hard into the case.
@@stevejorgensen5523 where do you get the cases? Do you just cut down 44. mag cases?
I started out turning down the rim diameter of 44 special cases and using them still special leingrh. Star line makes 44 Colt cases with the correct rim diameter and correst leingrh.
There's a Richards (or Richards Mason) conversion used by Tom Selleck in The Last Stand at Saber River. The film takes place in 1865. Would these conversions have been available/produced at that time or later? Thanks
@Jeff Lee the Model 3 was a Smith and wesson.
In some Bonanza episodes you ll see the conversion revolver too.
Are there cartridge conversion for dragoon models too?
How do these guns compare with modern hand guns?
I would have thought they would have had the new design cartridge gun ready to go the day the patent expired.
Only eight or nine thousand. Not a lot, but still nothing to sneeze at compared to modern firearms featured on this channel.
If it was patented then how Caldwell revolver used same mechanismis of ejector and loading gate/chamber?
This looks like a modern Kirst Conversion.
I want one of the .44 1858 Remington Army revolvers.
I remember a Western cowboy film when one character was shown in close up tyeing a bit of thong over the hammer before he rode out again.
They rode into town firing wildly in the air and someone muttered, "They don't get paid enough to buy so many bullets".
Although these are called 'conversions' I was surprised to hear you say they were factory made. Were there any true conversions kits, so someone could change the cap&ball cylinder to bored through without much alteration to anything else.?
I've heard this was a pretty common conversion done by independent gunsmiths at the time, and much cheaper than getting a whole new firearm
@@Eralen00 I love the Colt conversiobnabd Open Top guns and I believe that it is a misconception that conversions were commonly done by gunsmiths. Just as today the precise fabrication of intricate parts is beyond the capability of the average gunsmith and the ones that could do it would charge quite a bit for a custom job like that. Not saying it wasn't done, there are existing examples, but more the exception than the norm. Especially when you could ship the gun back to Colt and they would do it for about half the price of a new gun and it would be properly designed and built, without the possibility of it being some hack job.
Anyone making guns or anything in quantity will make them far cheaper than someone doing one offs or very limited production pieces.
Why is the sound recording sounding like it's mono?
+hamiel85 It's a somewhat common practice with behind-the-camera reviewers, it gets rid of that freaky effect of the sound moving from one speaker to the other all the time.
I don’t understand how this avoids infringing on the White patent, since the chambers are bored through.
Lubrication was the only reason to go away from heeled bullets? In jacket bullets era, it seems that it would make firearm and bullet cheaper, or it wouldn't?
+Tyler Brown No, there were also reasons involving accuracy.
this is ancestor from colt 1873
There was a study done out of iirc the university of Stockholm done by some engineering students and their prof who have found that the large arbor of the open top revolvers is actually stronger than revolver frames with an open top, using modern steels that was. I personally prefer the open top series of revolvers, be them 1872's or one of the many conversions and am currently modifying my personal Uberti conversion model to suit my own taste.
yes I can't find the idiot who was arguing with me about the fouling with BP, but the forcing cone will end up dragging on the cylinder with the 1873, this really doesn't occur with open tops, cartridge conversion or not.
Where is video about wz. 28 ?
+POLO MAR It will publish in a couple weeks.
Yes! Awesome! I love the wz. 28, its like the cool brother of the B.A.R!
Great!
Ian, you didn't really say how colt got away with selling the conversion when there's the patent. I'd assume they were made as pecussion reolvers with the kit as an extra supplied separate? Right? Or wrong? Hmm
+Mickleblade Ian said in the video, that the conversions were sold from the moment the Rollin Wright patent expired, to cover the period from the expiration of the patent (1869) to the release of a ground up cartridge firing pistol (the Single Action Army or "Peacemaker") in 1873.
+J Corbett... Colt still would have been infringing on the patent as the Wright patent was extended until '71. Also the "conversions" were not sold as a parts kit, but as mentioned, a complete gun
+Son of a Zombie Ian did say that the conversion was only produced for a couple years. If S&W had gotten the patents extended or a new patent issued for some relevant "improvement" over the expiring/expired patent, Colt and everyone else would have been stuck, but that didn't happen. The 1869-1871 period was probably the time it took to make the application to the patent office and for the patent office to decide whether the application was valid.
+Son of a Zombie Well I was wrong about the expiry of the patent - as you say, though the original patent expired in 1869, S&W managed to wangle an extension to 1871, but it lapsed then. But at no point did I say Colt was manufacturing conversion kits - I said he was manufacturing conversions, which was the whole gun "converted" to fire cartridges. Colt were never contravening Rollin Whites' patent, because it had expired, in fact Rollin White was appealing to Congress in 1870 for "relief", claiming that he had not been suitably compensated for his patent by S&W, after he had failed to get a patent extension.
There a Colt Walker Conversion? Can you get a hold of one?
+McBandit Hope No, the Walker was long out of production by this time.
Sorry, I was thinking of the converted Colt Walkers in the movie "The Outlaw Josey Wales". Not period accurate, but pretty damn cool. Sorry for bothering you.
So here I was thinking the weapons in the movie "The Good, The Bad and The Ugly" were period correct, I get smacked in the face with this information that Colt didn't make cartridge conversions until 1870. Seeing how the movie takes place during the civil war the 1851 navy that blondie wields with the cartridge conversion cannot be period correct. What a bummer!
Ian, bro, you need to fix your audio, it sounds like a dodgy Skype connect.
Nothing different to notice here. Audio is good as any previous videos.
1:19 Muzzle loading cap and ball revolvers? Cap and ball pistols are loaded from the muzzle. Cap and ball revolvers are loaded from the cylinder, NOT the muzzle.
Mincing words dude
WDC - here was a comment somewhere (on FW vid - dragoons?) some place making muzzle loading revolver(s) to be legal in Britain sigh ...
Hi Ian, did you know about the 1871 barrel weight for target shooting?:
czcams.com/video/OS01B3tmkdY/video.html
22lr is still heeled I think
Yes because it just stayed popular. It was so cheap to shoot and produce and accurate enough for small and medium game super thin brass a swaged bullet and some powder
Poor Rollin White. The big companies paid him little which the lawyers took to fight the companies illegally using his patent. Sound familiar? I think it's amusing that his design was made while working for Colt.
Is there a particular reason you've stopped doing an intro as part of your Forgotten Weapons videos? Just don't like them or some other reason?
+Jirekianu To be honest I prefer to get right into it. I've seen the intro so many times it's refreshing to hear "Hi, I'm Ian" without a 10 second intro.
+Jirekianu I think he only doesn't have it at the beginning on his Rock Island Auction videos.
I used to skip about 10-15 secs in the video once the page has been loaded. Repetition is pain in the ass. Displaying an description and going straight into the video makes perfect sense for his style of videos.
Anonymous surfer Agreed.
WEIRD!!!!!! I was watching Hickok45 uberti conversion vid....... clicked on FW Richardson conversion vid...... Now have H45 vid on screen..... but FW comment section below. Anyone EVER have this happen? The H45 vid is playing as I write this.
So... I refreshed the page & now all is normal.I'm going back and try to recreate this event.
@@dr.johnpaladinshow9747 thats how the internet works, algorithms and data collection, they know
Just a
comment for the algorithm
Has there ever been a time in history when patents and intellectual property law didn't retard the march of progress? No. No there hasn't.
first
+TheJimmie Rustler good job
FYI Roland White was a woman.