The Lost Texts of Ancient Greece
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- čas přidán 12. 06. 2024
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DISCLAIMER
I am just a random student on the internet who loves reading, especially about ancient history and classics. The purpose of my videos is to make classics and ancient history interesting and accessible to everyone. I am not a professional or qualified educator, “expert”, historian or classicist. However, I ensure that all the information I use in my video scripts has been collated from numerous credible sources. Additionally, I am dyslexic, and I will mispronounce words. This does not stem from willful ignorance, and I do make an effort to research how to pronounce words before I start filming, but I often misread my phonetic spelling. In light of this, please do not rely on my video for an authoritative or reliable source of how to pronounce certain words.
Chapters:
0:00 Introduction
5:44 The Lost Tragic Plays
16:00 The Lost Epic Poems
22:12 Did the Church Burn Sappho's Poetry?
Resources used:
Greek Epic Fragments: From the Seventh to the Fifth Centuries BC. Edited and translated by Martin L. West. Loeb Classical Library 497. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 2003.
Wright, Matthew. In The Lost Plays of Greek Tragedy: Volume 1: Neglected Authors. London: Bloomsbury Academic, 2016.
SEGAL, CHARLES. “Lament and Recognition: A Reconsideration of the Ending of the ‘Bacchae.’” Illinois Classical Studies 24/25 (1999): 273-91. www.jstor.org/stable/23065372.
www.livius.org/sources/conten...
S. J. Gąsiorowski. “A Fragment of a Greek Illustrated Papyrus from Antinoë.” The Journal of Egyptian Archaeology 17, no. 1/2 (1931): 1-9. doi.org/10.2307/3854814.
"The ancients were petty b*tches." 😂😂😂😂 Ahh, just one of the reasons why I love this channel.
I once had a wonderful dream that I walked into a library with the original texts of ancient writing, and I was so excited when I woke up. Then I realized it was only a dream.
Not only very old works are lost. We have lost movies due to film degradation. Stuff on the internet can easily be lost as it takes a lot of resources to maintain servers and the devices used to view those content. Human knowledge is essentially like building sandcastles. Eventually all may wither with time.😢 So enjoy and learn what you can. Pass it on, share and teach others and they might have a chance😊
How I wish that those text hadn't been lost. How much knowledge we will never recover? And how much we actually recover?
Hey Cinzia, I just wanted to leave a comment to let you know I find great comfort in your videos, like a cozy book. I have a vivid memory of finding your videos during a rough period of my life where I was away from family and friends in a foreign country. I was laid down on two small economy seats on a 33 hour nonstop train trip, crammed between the window and the arm rest at 2 am, unable to sleep. But I had your lovely voice, the intrigue of Greek mythology and the continuous sound of train tracks racketing to keep me company till sunrise, and that was greatly appreciated. it's probably easy to forget that your work reaches quite far, so I hope this message re-assures you that the added time and effort you go to in making these videos is all worthwhile. I would probably listen to you talk about anything :) Thanks
I studied religion (existential crisis in university form) and I had a class on lost texts. Personally, if only one person referenced some lost text, I never used it as a reference bc without someone else going “oh yeah this and this person was an ass to Tartullian” I don’t believe them. So many times people used made up arguments to argue their point. (Failed that class bc I said Tartullian was an ass and probably made up shit to have something to write about 😊) Also Church burning something? Revolutionary. If you study theology and go to Vatican to do some classes they confiscate smut books you bring with you. 😆
I'm in love with the fact that MattPat and Game Theory is a meme now. Nothing delights me more as a fan who's been watching since their early youtube days and I love seeing my favorite youtubers reference each other. :3
Eh. None of his "theories" were ever theories. They were hypotheses.
He also has a long history of really horrible decisions, like supporting Autism Speaks or trying to defend the creator of FNaF from criticism.
whaaaat he supported Autism speaks?! and never knew of this!
@@DragonbIaze052 source? I’ve never heard this and I’ve watched him for a really long time.
@@shanachayadavison5857 In 2021, he participated in a charity stream for NEXT for Autism, a partner of Autism Speaks that advocated for Applied Behavior Analysis. ABA was developed in 1959 for "behavioral disorders" like schizophrenia, and frequently involves shocking people for not behaving "normally". Evidence for its effectiveness is weak, and it's opposed by every major autism advocacy group. ABA is essentially considered conversion therapy for autism. The version that seems to be considered the most effective, called the Lovaas method or Early Intensive Behavioral Intervention, was also used by Lovaas to try to cure transness. The subject (who I should note was 4) used in the study used to prove it works would commit suicide at 38 with their family blaming the treatment as a main cause.
A few months later, a post in the GT subreddit criticizing his participation in the stream got over 1,000 net karma. Given that MatPat talks about frequently visiting the sub and has done so on GTLive before and 1,000 karma is enough to keep it on the front page for a while, this is something he's definitely seen. Instead of saying something like, "I didn't know." he's just not addressed it at all.
Fantastic stuff! Reading the Iliad as an undergrad it always made me think about its iconic status in a different light, as it's just so clearly a fragmentary document. Especially fascinating given that it is of course an orally-transmitted epic and was only much later recorded in writing. Given oral poetics were such a common medium in the ancient world it's almost certain that the gaps in knowledge there are even more extreme than in the written form. Galaxies of words we'll never get to know.
And there are now-lost or fragmentary expansions, what we'd now called fanfiction, of it.
"The ancients were petty bitches". Best phrase of the week. xD
currently studying (unfortunately) a famous French renaissance painter but i cant wait to think more and more abt my regret of not having continued my greek classes 😎😎
I just love hearing this woman talk
As a political theory student I mourn that we only have roughly 40% of Artistotle's works. As a painter I am in shock that we have only one painting from the entirety of classical Athens where visual arts such as painting and mosaics flourished.
Thank you for making this video, it's such a rare subject to see worked out in terms of literary history and it's interesting to know that in some cases we know more or less WHAT was lost, but we also have a vast body of works where we hardly (or don't at all) know what was lost at all. Very interesting stuff!
You're absolutely glowing here Cinzia! Thank you once again for taking the time to teach us such cool things
Watching this video is like my time taking Mythology in College; great video on the subject.
Hi from Greece . Keep going the good work.
I would like to suggest something that is not known to many people and I think many people will find it quite interesting. You could look up the lives of Odysseus, Penelope and Telemachus after Odysseus purged the suitors
Has anyone else here read "To Say Nothing of the Dog" by Connie Willis? I always think of it when the subject of lost texts is brought up.
Babe, wake up! New Lady of the Library video! ❤️
So excited for this new video!❤
I watched your beginners guide to greek literature after i asked a really silly question the other day about what else to read for a beginner. Never heard of Stephen frys mythis b4 so ive bought that and added the rest of the recommendations to my buy it list. I was shocked you didnt mention robert graves greek myths, the ammount of times ive read chapters over and iver is insane because its so good.
Just wanted to say it was a great video as are all of your uploads.
❤😊
This, among many historical events & tragedies, make me yearn for ‘time travel’ to be real 🔮 Other than traveling to *DELETE* bad guys, I would ‘travel’ to save these antiquities & travel to stop tragic events or practices
I haven't been watching or listening to your videos in a while. But for some reason I really enjoy your voice and listening to your videos in the background. Hopefully soon you will be able to hire someone to help you . Congrats on your success.
Have fun with the new tech toys, Cinzia!
Looking forward to the podcasts.
That's such a fascinating topic. I can't wait to watch it!
Thank you so much for posting your sources! Interesting video as always ^_^
Yes, please! I need a video on what we know of the trojan cycle, if it wouldn't be too much trouble.
Hi, Cinzia. The subject of how much great literature has been lost to history is a subject enormously interesting to me. With the current state of technology and information, I hope more work from whatever era we are in will be salvaged for future eras than what we have inherited.
While I was listening to you speak in this video, I couldn't get the image of pages from Guy Davenport's Seven Greeks out of my head: poems and passages with brackets containing empty space strewn throughout. Have you read Davenport's Seven Greeks? I do believe you would appreciate it.
An idea for a video I have thought of recommending a few times: a video on the history of classical, Greco-Roman writing into English, particularly the playwrights. Not too long ago, I read Chapman's Homer. Inspired, I decided to read the earliest-possible English translations of the Greek playwrights. I have not yet done so, but while researching, the earliest ones I can find don't seem to go back much further than the 1700's. Could be an interesting topic, and does seem to be in your wheelhouse.
Very excited about the podcast!!!! Great video too, just with 2 toddlers, not always able to watch youtube
Great informative video. Imagine all the other texts from Mayan to Mesopotamia that were lost as well.
You have a beautiful voice, love listening to your videos :)
Such a brilliant video, thoroughly enjoyed. I cant wait for your podcast to start😊
Yes! Another video by Cinzia. Thank you, Cinzia ❤
I'm sure I would be interested in many of the lost texts. How many cultures and stories will we never know about? How much mythology has been destroyed? What were the texts in the Library of Alexandria like and what kind of material was in it? I'd love to know what we've lost, but they're called lost texts for a reason, unfortunately. I'm sure some things truly have been lost forever.
As always, such interesting and well-sourced info with a balanced presentation - thank you so much for all your work on these!!
Love your channel!! And love your hair this week! I’ve not been interested in classic literature until I started watching your channel. Thank you and reading does save lives!!
Thank you so much for this super neat lost texts video! 🙆♀️
Another fabulous video! I would definitely be interested in a video about the Epic Cycle. Also excited about the podcast. Hope you're doing ok today! 💜
Another excellent video! I feel so smart with your channel on in the study all day. 5 minutes of an episode and you learn something really interesting. My daughter has followed too.
... not really Greek, buuuuuuut, there's all those carbonized scrolls in Herculaneum. The ones already excavated seem to be an Epicurean Philosophy collection, BUT, I think there's suppose to be some potential more carbonized scrolls in a larger, more generalized library that's as-yet-unexcavated.
Oh, how do we know about the Epicurean Philosophy scrolls if they're just lumps of carbon? There's a virtual unrolling project that's using all sorts of fun science to READ all those lumps of carbon that were once scrolls.
Science is amazing. Sooooo, IF there's some undiscovered scrolls in an unexcavated area, some of those could very well be copies of lost GREEK works. Romans were quite fond of copying so, it's not too far fetched there may be copies still to be discovered in unexcavated parts of Herculaneum, and IF we find those carbonized lumps, they can potentially be virtually unrolled with science and read! 😀
My very own thoughts!
They're still working on the virtual unrolling process to make it better, and it's quite exciting (toldinstone has a podcast episode/video about it) but I'm frustrated that the rest of the house hasn't been excavated yet. At least pull them out of the ground if they're even there and preserve them!
Another amazing video. Listening whilst studying :)
I would love to hear synopses of the lost works. The titanomachy has been a favorite obsession of mine for years; I had little idea we'd lost so much literature since Greece though.
It’s not bad that I’m using content creators of Cinzia’s caliber as a form of continuous collegiate education is it?😅
I’m here for all the ancient writers and them being read to filth ❤
Im sad about all the plays & pieces of plays we lost of Aristophanes.
Interesting topic I knew nothing about! Thank you! ☺
excited for the podcast ❤ might go submit a dark literature request later 🦑
I'm currently watching this as smoke from Canada blows all the way down here to New Jersey, USA. I can't help but draw a tiny connection between these current wildfires and the ancient texts lost to fire. It can take but a split second to destroy what has existed for hundreds of years. The act of that destruction can ripple out into the world, affecting people and places far away; or, in terms of the texts, those ripples spread out through time. We're living in a time of great destruction and, if we don't work hard and very fast, we're going to lose so much that people in the future will have no idea even existed. It'll just be a pile of ash thrown to the wind. If we lament now what we lost from thousands of years ago, how will our future ancestors feel when they discover allusions to information they'll never find? How far will we be setting out children and grandchildren back if we continue to let our planet literally burn to cinders?
Clever and charming! Rare on CZcams.
that’s kind of you to say, thank you. though there are plenty of clever and charming creators on here!
The two Ancient works I wish they would rediscover are The Milesian tales by Aristides of Miletus and The wonders beyond Thule by Antonius Diogenes.
Hey Cinzia , i was wondering if you could make a video on ancient Mesopotamia( including the mythology)....btw great video as always :)
You changed your hair? It looks good Lady!
No, it's just hanging in a different way than usual, but thank you!
I love this topic and I lovr your channel. You are an inspiration. I wish I could sound half interesting as you do😂.
Thanks for the video! It made me feel sad, inspired and remember why do I love ancient literature🥰.
I'd watch a video about the stories of the lost Trojan cycle!
This type of information always destroys me like just imagine all the things we have lost to time
There was the lost work of Archimedes, "The Method," which was discovered by Heiberg circa 1900.
great video! your hair is amazing!
Is it Sappho? It’s Sappho!! ❤
As much as I trust your conclusion of the fact that her poems probably just weren't copied because they were hard to read, so they are now lost, saying "well the Christian church didn't really mind this man writing about explicit stuff so they must've not cared about this woman writing about explicit stuff" isn't really a great rebuttal given how the Christian church treats women
@17:00 yes! Yes! YES! We want to know!!
I'm excited for your new direction!
Thank you, Leslie! I thought of you the other day when Julian of Norwich was trending online haha
@@CinziaDuBois Thank you 💓. I posted about it being her feast day on the day! (I'm halfway through editing the novel.)
I'd love to see a video on the Telegony
Please, please, do a video on the epic cycles ❤❤
I have heard,the Vatican library can be accessible by looking for specific words.
Sounds like Sapho's work being deliberately destroyed is a rumor from Renaissance Italy.
I read a book called “The Trojan Epics” by Quintus of Smyrna. Thanks to you, I’m off on another quest! BTW, do you read Ancient Greek?
I would never argue that The Church did not censor, control or destroy written works that contradicted doctrine. BUT, the lack of technology to mass produce books plus the illiteracy of the time probably had a lot to do with the loss of ancient knowledge/writings .Possibly more so than any deliberate effort to ban books. Papyrus is fragile, literacy was low & war was common with the sacking, burning & looting that usually accompanied invading forces. Blaming The Church seems like an over simplification.
please do a video about the trojan cycles!
It is very cruel that we know so very well what is lost.
Every time somebody mentions the burning of the library, I have a small stroke over the things that were lost. The people, the ideas, the methods and histories. Sorry I think I need to lie down now...
Yes epic cycles video please!
How do we know that the Sappho who wrote the poems is the same person that the play character was based on? I mean, could it have been another case of a family member having the same name?
Many of these lost writings might not have been considered that important. The authors weren't necessarily producing Great Literature or Breaking New Ground in this or that philosophical or religious endeavor. They'd be astounded to learn that we were writing entire dissertations on the 'real' meaning of a scene in a play or whether Author X accurately wrote about Thrace when the source material was equivalent to a Poverty Row movie or a Berlitz travel guide.
Good stuff, Kiddo.
Have you considered sharing Dr. Elaine Pagels translation of the ancient texts on the subject of "Adam, Eve, & The
Serpent "?
Dr. Pages, in examining her academic acclaimed work in translation of the Nag Hammadi ancient manuscripts presents a real eye opener into more ancient versions of very early writings on "Satan/Devil" origins defined by very early Christians & a guaranteed "yummy" read.
you need to voice books on tape, I could listen to your voice all day; and I tend to tone people out.
The notion that I come to on some of these losses was the tight control that the owners kept on their copies. In many cases, all we have of many of them are summaries, or even summaries of summaries. I seems that many of these scholars could only read, but not copy, these rare (at the time) works, probably at a cost. These works were "rented" out due to their rarity, only to wear out from use. Never copied, for fear of there owners losing there income. A real "kill the golden goose" thing.
Of course, the whole Palimpsest thing. Thankfully, we are getting a number of those back, thanks to modern imaging.
You should talk about Herculaneum
AsthiDIMEous sounds much nicer, truly fascinating to learn about
him and truly tragic that we will never know what he wrote...
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Quality content as always... and is it just me that I THINK her pitch changes along the video and then I'm back to square one in that it didn't at all ? =) . And 8:35 so... Alexander Pope v/s Thomas Hearne but in the ancient Greek version? =)
I mean, I'm not a monotone speaker so my pitch does change throughout when talking as I think most people's do ahah
@@CinziaDuBois Yours have something... I'm just unable to pin exactly what... It works absolutely GREAT to be honest. =)
My voice trainer from twenty years ago will be very happy to hear it haha
@@CinziaDuBois Oh!, maybe that's it. =). [Oh, Thank you for the heart ]
You have such a lovely voice… I’m sure everyone would love these so much more if you spoke in a less formal tone, and more naturally. :) I’ve been trying to learn my natural voice as well, so I understand the struggle of balancing being natural, and presenting in an interesting/professional tone... There’s always that space where it sounds like one is “putting on,” especially whilst reading a script. Hence my lack of posted videos.
Thank you. Well my friends and family don't mind that I speak this way. They know I'm not putting it on and they accept me wholeheartedly for who I am, so I've decided I don't want to cater to strangers on the internet. If they can't accept me for who I am, my whole authentic self, they can watch other people who appease their tastes. I am who I am, and people can either watch and accept me, or not.
@@CinziaDuBois Aww, I’m sorry, my self-deprecating humor didn’t come across! Text is very harsh. It never conveys the nuance of my gentle/friendly/jocular tone when offering suggestions, so I didn’t come across well.
I did wonder if you’re “putting on” a bit, but really, I was talking about ME sounding like I’m putting on in my videos. You do you girl!
Most creators/presenters/speakers have a “voice” they “put on” (ie: professional/formal/presentation style) compared to conversational speech (natural/informal/podcast style). I haven’t found the sweet spot myself.
To you, subscribers may be strangers, but to us… you’re our friend. (I know balancing that aspect of CZcams-ing is part of the game.) We don’t know the real you, which is why I made the suggestion. I shouldn’t have assumed you were speaking in a formal tone, or that a formal tone isn’t your natural way of speaking.
I always suggest reading “The Four Agreements” and “The Fifth Agreement” for their phenomenal life wisdom, but especially for creators. Because what they teach you works like a shield while you’re reading comments.
Thank you. This interaction has been a good lesson that *I* need to reread those books to remind myself not to make assumptions or take things personally. And to be impeccable with my word, while always doing my best, and being skeptical but listening.
That greek drama gatekeeping decision is tragic indeed.
No one expects sappo lost in translation.
the lost osyseus cycle :O , are there telemachus misadventures :O
This is kinda bit unrealted but I read an artical a while ago that found a copy of a text by Archimedes on mathamatic that had been erased by a monk copying a praer book.
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I've always been fascinated by this subject -- especially because of the possibilities that some more lost manuscripts may one day be discovered. I guess at this point most dry desert caves or ancient monastic library basements have been explored and have turned up most of whatever there is to be found ... but who knows? Maybe we'll get one of those missing epics one day. The works I'd love to see most are Aristotle's dialogues. I remember reading that he wrote dialogues as Plato had -- but since they're all missing, we have only his very dry textbooks. How much would it change our picture of the division between Plato and Aristotle to see the latter presenting arguments in the same form that Plato did?
If you ever do a sequel to this video, maybe you could talk about some ancient texts that vanished for centuries before being rediscovered.
Wouldn’t you love to rummage through the Vatican’s libraries?
I don't trust any of the sources claiming Sappho was into men, especially since they're either in the form of, "She was married to Dick from Manland," or, "A man turned her down and she was so sad she threw herself off a cliff."
I think it's time that we put Zeus under arrest. How many crimes has he committed?
I love the haircut.
I haven't cut my hair at all but thank you haha
Someone may have mentioned that you are slightly out of focus, at least for the first few minutes. This is of course a shame as you are such an attractive Lady of the Library.
*I don't think Sappho's Ode a good example,*
*Although Longinus tells us there is no hymn*
*In which the Sublime soars on wings more ample;*
......
*And then what proper person could be partial*
*To all those nauseous epigrams of Martial?*
- Byron, _Don Juan_
Anyone told you that you got a perfect Jokersmile?
no but I’ll take it
@@CinziaDuBois Do it... I notised during the video of the Greek underworld and thought "Damn..... What a smile..."
If you do a Halloweenvideo.... Go nuts with it and add some creepy laugh
They were destroyed because they were written in what is today's Albanian language which was spoken in "ancient greece" and most of the Balkan Peninsula.
Podcast sounds interesting, cant wait to listen.
There is a school of thought that Sappho's poems may not have been from her point of view but may have been written from a man's point of view, so they don't necessarily point to her being a lesbian.
I'm not an expert, but from what I have read, this would be a very difficult thing to be true. The ancient Greek language is gendered, so (people who can read ancient Greek) can tell pretty well when the speaker is identifying themselves as the feminine or masculine gender.
@@Theater00jock One of the things that Sappho was known for was to be the 1st poet to write in the 1st person. In Greek first person and second person pronouns are not declined for gender. They use the same forms for masculine, feminine, and neuter.
The 1st mention of her possibly being homosexual came 2-3 centuries after her death found in a fragmentary biography of her, author unknown, that states 'some' people accuse her of having relations with women. The earlier Romans didn't like her poetry for being too erotic and to slander her suggested she was a lesbian.
Of course we will never know for certain.
Smart chicks🤩🤤 just censor me already lol
You have a pretty nose
Aww, thank you haha
Are you sure you're not putting on a voice like Elizabeth Holmes?
Yes, I'm sure
LOST HER IN THE RAIN REMASTERED (C)2006
@jamesmonahan1870