N7345R Beech Baron Training Crash
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- čas přidán 7. 09. 2024
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After years of enjoying Juan's great reports, I'm doing my 2nd comment. As a retired DPE and longtime CFI, retired FAA, having done VMC Demos in numerous twins including Baron's and 310s, Twin Commanches, Aerostars Seminoles, etc, this was the best analysis I've seen. So many Fatals this past year with VMC Demos with varying CFI experience, some high time , some low time. What stands out is the "blocking rudders" emphasis Juan discussed. I haven't heard much about this emphasis for awhile and wonder as critical as it is , if it's not being emphasized, taught correctly with this new wave of GA Training. Going into a stall while slowing for the Demo as Juan says is inviting disaster if the instructor doesn't correctly block the rudder to not allow the speed less than 5 knots above stall, especially where VMC meets VS1 at higher altitudes .We just had a Seminole spin in the next town in Newberg, OR 3 months ago. Sad so many are perishing needlessly and so great we have Juan doing excellent educational videos to hopefully save some lives.
Juan mentioned the increase in demand for multi-engine training due to demand for airline pilots. I believe that European airlines have traditionally sponsored zero time pilot trainees where US based airlines used to be able to hire experienced former military pilots. If that is so, I wonder if European CFIs use different teaching methods with low time multi-engine students.
I believe that Seminole crash in OR also had a student in the back seat.
@@Thankz4sharingPilot from Europe here. Times where Airlines Sponsor Training are long gone. However with a CPL/MEP IR and 200 hrs we are able to apply for the airlines. During the few hours of Multi training, VMCa Demo was always done with blocked rudders and sufficient altitude. I did my Multi on a DA42 which is naturally very stable, but the method of blocking rudder by the instructor with enough margin to the vmca was apllied at all times.
It's is clear that the FAA needs to conduct a serious review of this training requirement. Especially enlight of all these fatalities. It is all too common now and will, in fact, start discouraging people from seeking this certification. Which, in turn, will increase the shortage of commercial pilots into an even more serious situation, industry wide. They need to allow it in a simulator environment. Or simply restrict / forbid it in certain twin types.
If the airlines don't get back into this training, they may find themselves out of business from a lack of certified commercial pilots.
Retired DPE here too. The Vmc demo needs to be eliminated from the ACS and covered as a briefing item only. It disappears from the ATP/Type rating PTS, arguably because turbine aircraft asymmetrical thrust is potentially so pronounced that training or performing that maneuver would be suicidal. Spin demonstration was eliminated from single-engine tests a long time ago for safety reasons and now is simply briefed -- during initial CFI tests too. Testing the Vmc demo was one of those "you don't pay me enough" situations (rudder blocked, natch) but I never failed to do it, breathing a sigh of relief afterwards.
The scary thing to me is the chief pilot with sooo many hours of flight experience still could not recover this, let alone not letting it happen to begin with. What are low time pilots suppose to do with this info. Thank you Juan for this “don’t let it happen to you” video.
Just what Juan stated.
A) don't have anyone sitting aft as 3rd person.
B) don't practice vmc in bad weather with low cloud bases.
C) use of a foot under rudder so plane looses directional control way before reaching stall speeds.
D) make sure one has a safe altitude before attempting vmc demos.
He may have been distracted by the company owner breathing down his neck.
... which CZcams will promptly de-monitize. Go figure.
@Mikinct No need to have a foot 'under the rudder'. Just keep your foot for the opposite rudder in a set position and don't let the rudder go beyond it. 'Lock your leg/foot' as some say (though of course with a bent leg). Getting your foot under/behind a rudder pedal can be hazardous if it gets stuck.
@@tommy35ss
That may be true as a book smart.
But I'm uncertain brand new "students" have that amount of experience & concentration to just let rudder go "Halfway" when they are brand new to the plane & everything going on during this manuever.
So if the student accidently or flight instructor "allows full rudder control" to surpass vmc & controls & looses control & plane gets into a spin.
Again, we are seeing this VMC becoming a fatality practice routinely.
Poor Juan is making VMC fatalities every month. At least he is smart enough to say hey, a simple foot under rudder can actually Save Lives I tend to let his ideas play out.
I haven't yet heard nor seen VMC fatalities because an instructor used his foot to block rudder.
Or the use of a device to prevent VMC fatalities.
When I start to see these pop up routinely on CZcams I will agree with you 100%.
I flew that plane like 4 months ago. This is insane to hear. The instructor was such a great guy. He taught me to fly that plane. Literal shock.
Did you do the training these guys appear to have done? Vmc?
I got my rating in a baron very similar to the accident aircraft, and a year later two men were killed in that airplane in the same stall-spin accident.
My condolences. Fly safe.
@@mr.mcbeavy1443 yeah. Usually, on your first flight, you are walked through/have to do a Vmca and single-engine ops. That's a safety thing, so if anything happens, you can help out/know what to do and understnad the aerodynamics of the plane on a single engine. I've logged some time in a Geronimo (~2 hrs) and this plane (~7hrs). This Baron was about 300 hp/side, so def have to make sure you are on the rudders. Also, if you are used to a piper/Cessna with retractable gear, the order of the levers is different, so you have to be careful there. When I flew it, I had about 250-275 hrs total time, and about 60-70 retract and 70 high performance. A lot can happen pretty fast in that plane. Bill was a super-experienced pilot and helped me through it to make sure I was doing it correctly. I did my first flight in a twin in a Geronimo and that is when the instructor explained to me how crucial it is to make sure you understand that part of the envelope, espcially with how changes in weight and its distribution affect the performance and vmca.
Maybe they should start doing VMCA training on simulators rather than actual aircraft? We seem to be killing a lot of people in an attempt to not kill people.
I work in Greenfield and my coworker's property abuts the property where this crash occurred. This has been the talk of town all week because it's so tragic. I live about 20 miles away and I've seen this aircraft fly over my house a lot with students landing at KORE, the field a mile from my house. I often check ads-b exchange, especially when I see a multi fly over because it's not very common in our little rural part of MA. Sunday was definitely overcast all day with 30-40mph wind gusts in the afternoon. The morning wasn't quite as windy but it was pretty bad all day long. We had some crazy snow squalls beginning around 2pm. The first thing I said to my partner when we heard about the crash in the evening was that I was really surprised that a GA aircraft was even flying on this weather. It doesn't sound like weather played a direct role, but it could certainly explain why they stayed so close to the ground. I hope others learn from this and realize that being disappointed because winter weather canceled a training is far better than not canceling and losing one's life. I've been hoping you would cover this so I can point people in the community to accurate info. Your reporting is top notch Juan and it is much appreciated.
Non pilot, to many deathes. Maybe blunt photo of bodybags! "WHO GOING TO DO ALL THE SMALL THINGS, WE DO FOR OUR FAMILY AND FRIENDS"???
Thanks. Interesting details.
I was visiting Westfield that Sunday - windy and waves of snow squalls as you said. Very sad.
If it was gusty, that could have played a part in entering a spin. Wind shear in the wrong direction while in slow flight will do it.
I soloed at KORE.... a long time ago.. 1993.
I'm not a pilot, but regardless I watch these to learn because Juan does such a great job presenting the problems and how to avoid or handle them. Good teachers make any subject compelling.
Me too. Great teachings and analysis. I don't even like flying, lol. I Haven't flown in 11 years now.😅 I got an RV.
Is getting your license an option for you?
@@chrisc161 I feel I'm too old and not rigorous enough in my procedural processing to be a safe pilot, much as I love the idea of flying. Physics does not coddle those that forget to set flaps or ensure there's no water in the fuel, and I'd rather not risk my or other's lives. But thanks for asking... :)
I'm not a pilot in part _due_ to these type of videos. I have zero interest in flying after seeing how many things can go wrong, quickly. And you'll never catch me in a light aircraft either. Went once in an old Cessna, for the experience (long before CZcams), and once in a helicopter. That was enough to satisfy my curiosity.
@@davidg3944that’s what checklists are for. But good on you for thinking about it pragmatically.
I think the solution is to stop Vmc demo in aircraft. We should be teaching to never go below Vyse. Do it in the simulator but its not safe. This was an extremely experienced instructor, he knew to block the rudders and it still happened. There is really no good reason behind the maneuver except to "see how dangerous it is." Staying above blue line will keep you safer
Got my MEL in a Baron. Blue line keeps you flying another day.
In this aircraft certainly. The Idea that a trainer can have a placard against spinning is the problem. Training can always end up in weird situations, so trainers need to be able to forgive just about anything.
I disagree with you in saying that it shouldn't be experienced, but agree that experiencing it in an aircraft it is dangerous for is not worth the risk.
You make a great point. VMC demos seem like no big deal, but the certainly can become a big deal. Decades ago we were required to feather an engine on a checkride. Then, 20 years ago it was stopped. Then, the feds brought it back. Personally, I think feathering an engine on a light twin for training is crazy. Even with un-feathering accumulators, I have had several not re-start over the years. Creating an intentional emergency is insane. Here in the Rockies, most light twins will not hold altitude with one feathered or even in simulated feather. It’s like playing with Rattlesnakes… why take the risk.
The intent is show you what to do if you go below blue line.
@@timarnold9969 the Beachcraft Dutchess I got my multi engine in, was notorious for this. We would full feather it, but not know if the accumulator was going to work or not. I never had any problems, but a lot of people did.
This plane took off from my home town airport. I'm about 10 minds away from Barnes. Thank you for covering this story, I've been watching you since your videos on the B17 fatal crash from CT, my Uncle died in that crash, so your videos were extremely important to me. Thank you again for all you do.
My condolences for your loss.
@@michellegarry1872 thank you
Juan, as always, thank you for your contribution. I’m from the area, had done all my training at the other school in our area before Fly Lugu had opened for business, instructed in the area, and knew Fredrika (Rika) very well as we had done some training together years prior. In all my years flying in western Massachusetts, I can’t remember a fatal accident. It’s a pretty tight knit community out here and everyone knows everyone. I knew Bill Hampton as well, but never spent much time with him. I did not know Chad (the student) personally. I’ve never experienced this before, so it came as a huge shock to myself and everyone in the aviation community here when the news broke. I’ll be attending Rika’s funeral this Saturday. I’m so heartbroken for everyone involved and their families. I truly never thought I’d be watching one of your videos one day analyzing the deaths of people I’ve spent time with personally and considered friends… fly safe everyone.
Rika, was an excellent pilot and mentor. She was so well loved. The funeral home estimated between 700-800 people attended. I'd never seen anything like it in my life. People just kept coming and coming. And it was freezing outside. That's a testament to who this lady was. A dynamic human being. So so loved. Just heartbroken.
Juan, this is the closest I have ever seen you to being furious. And you are right.
All pilots need to be aware how dangerous our, lets call it "recreational pastime" actually is.
Too many pilots seem to be completely oblivious to the darker corners of the envelope.
I only fly the very small stuff, single engine LSA, but I have spoken to many seemingly accomplished sport pilots and very few could grasp the concept of, for example, the coffin corner. Why do they think those damn physics don't apply to them?? Well, they seem to not be aware of what those physics are about, that's why.
ive seen him more furious to the point he almost had a loss of words. juan is old school -- he dont play around.
The accident rate for LSA’s is actually higher than for other singles. Light wing loading and slippery airframes can make them a handful. And yes, the physics applies to all of us, no matter what we fly.
@@cessna177flyer3 I agree, there are many accidents with LSA, and many of those are avoidable. The plane I built myself ('seen my channel?) is indeed very light, very slippery and I'd recommend to not even try to fly a contraption like this unless you have experience and proper training flying something very agile that's also always dragging its ass when its on the ground.
There were two fatal accidents with this type where pilots ignored the gap between their own proficiency and the planes requirements: one was in Spanish Fork, Utah, USA, the other one in Nannhausen, Germany only a few Miles away from my home. The one in Germany I had spoken to on the phone the day before he had flown to his death, and I warned him not to try anything alone.
He tried. He found one of the darker corners of the envelope right away, not even a mile from his starting point..
However, I'm still alive and my plane is intact. And I'm aware that losing my focus while flying will kill me, there's not much margin for error.
My point is, there's a lot of pilots who have no proper understanding of what makes a plane fly, all they know is to keep some gauges in their cockpit "in the green".
Which is not enough to keep you safely in the air.
As Juan said, there are the darker corners of the envelope. And I might add, those don't necessarily show up on the gauges.
@@TDCflyer small world. I grew up in Horgau, a town outside of Augsburg. I fly 777s now (when I’m not flying my Cardinal). I fly into Köln and Frankfurt from time to time. Our Frankfurt layover hotel is a actually in Mainz. Cheers and fly safe.
Juan is my most trusted source of civilian aircraft accident debriefing. As a retired A&P, I can say he is the best by far. Lots of these tragedies happening. Condolences to family members.
Why is he the best by far? Im a student pilot and want to know who is firs, second and third. Why is he the best by far?
Amen. I'm a local. I didn't know the folks, but it feels really personal. Let's first and foremost pay our respects to these people, and their families.
Because he always tells it like it really happened.
Simply by merit of his pedigree, and endless searching by me in the YT void, for a comprehensive, factual and trusted source. Cheers.
@@emergencylowmaneuvering7350
Agree Rick...his physics knowledge, combined with his military (as well as FA) training and practical experience over the years he usually figures it all out in three hours! We see the story as it's presented on the news and it looks like 2 different events!
Once again, congratulations on maintaining an incredible standard in your reporting of these very unfortunate incidents.
Unfortunate & avoidable
Hey Juan. When I was a Flight instructor in the late 80s at a big Flight school we had an aircraft crash into the ocean doing a VMC demo with an instructor and two students. It was determined because of the student in the back that the CG was too far aft in order for them to get the nose down and recover from the flat spin. This then became off-limits at the Flight school. I’m surprised the FAA didn’t restrict this as well. The same aviation lessons learned over and over again with tragic losses. 🙄
I'm surprised as well.
OR...flight schools can add this restriction to their SOPs immediately and not wait for Daddy Govt to regulate them further.
The info and tools are out there; it depends on the school staff and how much they want to balance safety with revenue (2+ students per trip pays more than 1).
@@Premier-Media-Group one would think 🤔
I checked my Cessna 310h hand book and under "Spins" on page 3-9 it states, Intentional spins are not permitted however the following recovery procedure should be employed; 1. cut power on both engines. 2 Apply full rudder opposing the direction of rotation. 3 Approximately 1/2 turn after applying rudder, push the control wheel full forward briskly. 4 To expedite recovery, add power to the engine toward the inside of the direction of turn. However I was taught to recover as soon as full rudder was reached.
It's not just your knowledge that makes you the best analyst on YT but it's also your passion for keeping aviators safe. Thanks for what you do.
Agree 100%. We do need Juan's hand to come out of the screen to slap aspiring pilots if they ever get the notion to pull a stunt contrary to his great advice 🙄
I don't fly but I like knowing about recent events and have a very light interest in aviation. These videos are perfect breakdowns as nothing is sensationalized. You break down the situations to such a degree that someone with little knowledge about piloting can still understand what happened given the presented evidence. Keep up the great content!
Agree 100%
Ive told you this once b4, I learned to fly with an Allegheny Airline pilot(now US Air) and he was a pro like you. When Thurmond Munson crashed his Citation in Akron-Canton(we flew out of a small airport nearby) he drilled us over and over about paying attention to the details of airmanship and drove us to the crash site and emphasized how important it is to master the basics. Munson crashed just yards from the runway on final approach in an almost new jet with min hours experience in it. thanks, Bill
My dad was mechanic for Allegheny Lake Central
Don't know how you keep producing these Juan. It guts me to just watch them, especially these reoccurring training accidents. Can't imagine how miserable it is to research them all.
Thank you for your sacrifice..
My own MEI started my multi training with a long briefing on just how dangerous the training was, and I did the same for all of my students when I became an MEI myself (I did not particularly want to be an MEI, but my school didn't really give me a choice). You can't be complacent at all in light twin multi training, and I always took all the precautions you mentioned. And this accident does show that it's not just young, inexperienced MEIs that are the problem. This can happen to anyone, even highly experienced instructors with thousands of hours. You really need to be "on" and laser focused 100% of the time when doing this training, and that is just really hard for any human to do day in and day out.
RIP - Thanks for a review of the basics.
When I teach multi, I damn sure block the rudder during a Vmc demo
Meaning, I induce loss of directional control
.... before the plane will actually lose its directional control, put us into a spin, and get us killed.
I am at a loss. I earned my CFI back when I was 18, shortly after attaining my Commercial. I upped it to CFI-I and Multi Engine Land soon after. I taught many pilots, from basic Private and onward. This was all over *four* decades ago from my perspective, but I never put myself, student and airplane in such dangerous situations or scenarios. BTW, my initial Multi Engine training was in the B95 Travelaire, and I also have a lot of time in the B55 Baron model.
The *ONE* time when things could have gone sour was a go-around practice (full landing config) and I took one engine away. This was a final test before his check-ride recommendation. The student FROZE UP! Required me to take over, clean up and continue the procedure... Students can surprise you if you don't stay ahead of them
Not only surprise you but cause you to grow gray hair prematurely!
Juan, Thank you for educating us. Thank you for all you do! I think this is one of the best CZcams channels. You don't beg for money. You're not trying to sell anything. You have a real job. You explain these scenarios in a way that a non pilot like myself can understand. I wish you all the best.
When I was checking out in the PA-44 at Travis AFB Aero Club, no one was ever allowed to be in the rear seats when training was going on for the reasons you mentioned
I went with my dad when he worked on his instrument flying training with an instructor. It was in the late 70's and it was in a Cardinal.
As usual, a terrific analysis on this terrible accident. You are the gold standard on You Tube.
I did know applying power made the spin go flat, but every video I learn something from you. Thanks
I teach these maneuvers to my multi engine students. They all get these videos too. Thanks for posting!
Thanks for posting this video. In the late 70s, I was fortunate to be trained for my Commercial ME and ME Instructor ratings by an instructor that understood how to do a VMC Demo safely. He taught me the importance of the CG location, proper altitude, and using the leg to limit the rudder travel. I spent many years after that as an instructor, and was surprised at how many fellow instructors were totally unaware of these safeguards.
According to her obit, the flight school owner already had her multi-engine, and was due to get her Airline Transport Pilot (ATP) certification in February.
"... she returned to her passion in 2016. From there she went on to earn multiple pilot ratings, CFII, land and sea single engine, land multi-engine, Complex, High Performance, and was getting her ATP this coming February which she was extremely proud of."
Just sad this keeps happening.
Maybe she was working on her MEI?
Kind of makes it sound like there’s no check ride for an ATP.
that@@addsub49 reasonable conclusion, I think. It would explain her presence in the back seat.
I literally went flying with Bill for the first time just 2 days prior, took my grandfather up with me for the first time, and we even practiced emergency landings a couple times. Bill was extremely experienced from what I saw when I flew with him, he taught me a lot during that flight, and he was supposed to have me solo the day after the accident happened. RIP to Rika, Bill and Chad
I agree 100% with everything Juan is saying. For those still interested in multiengine, I would encourage training in counter-rotating light twins such as Seminole, Seneca, and Duchess to eliminate the critical engine and discourage training in a higher horse-power twins such as Baron, 310, Aztec. Of course, this is not to suggest one can't learn safely in the later if no other choice is available.
Or a Cessna 337
@@Herlongian If you train in a 337 you get a multi engine limited to centerline thrust twins which would be excessively restrictive I would think.
Why don't all multi-engine propeller aircraft have counter-rotating propellers? Cost of having separate models of left and right engines? Risk of putting an engine on the wrong wing after an overhaul?
@@rayg.2431 Mostly cost.
When we revise our training standards to a) teach use of VmcSE as a hard floor and b) allow this to be taught in a simulator, the accident rate will go down - likely with little or no increase in operational incidents rooted in loss of an engine. Eliminating the 'critical engine' is less important than training to keep the aircraft above this speed. If so doing results in the inability to maintain altitude, one is arguably better off than making an off-airport landing under control than spinning in.
I concur. I did my ME training in a PA34 though the instructor did stress about the critical engine on a conventional twin. My heart goes out to the families of the deceased.
Great video as usual. To be perfectly accurate on the wording: the center of mass is not outside of the fuselage axis. It remains centered like on any symmetrical body.
It's the moment of inertia which is high due to the mass distribution far away from the center of mass Moment of inertia is a physical value which has no physical location. Center of mass is a specific physical location with no physical value.
And it's this high moment of inertia which results in a high rotational inertia whenever the plane starts spinning.
what percentage of pilots are aware of these concepts? Sounds like it should be memorized & understood.
Juan, once again you tell it like it is. I learned from your videos what I didn’t learn during my multi engine training. My school didn’t allow passengers during any training flights, no matter the rating we were working on or the aircraft we were flying. I do agree with you that the sheer amount of training and the speed people are trying to accomplish it in could be the issue with all the crashes as of late.
We live about 20 miles from the accident site. It was blustery on Sunday with snow squalls after an overnight frontal passage. Tough day for flying.
Just finished my AMEL training. I've been paying special attention to these accidents and have thought about them as I've been training for the maneuvers.
Thank you Juan for the insights
The fatal twin training spin we just had in Newberg, Oregon had a passenger in the back.
A very bad idea to spin a twin with a passenger in the rear, over the past decades so many lives have been lost for this reason. Btw spinning a twin is a bad idea anyway as there is no requirement that they pass a spin test, you become the test pilot if you spin a twin. I know of two ex Navy pilots who spun a Baron at 1500 feet alt. they survived but were in hospital for a good while, plane was written off.
@@dwaynemcallister7231 I won't even spin a single below 6000 AGL. I'm 70. I'm old, not bold. 🙂
No one spins twins.....deliberately.
@@phillipzx3754 The saying goes is you can be an old pilot or a bold pilot, but not both.
Juan, I hope your channel grows exponentially so new aviators learn the approach of utmost caution as a pilot. Condolences to the families.
Thank you for explaining the engine thing cause I was thinking the same thing. Why no just add power opposite. Granted I'm only a noob sim pilot lol. I love flying and thank you for your help in understanding
This is great analysis; thank you. My 19-year-old is about to be in twin training. I did mine in a 310 just a few years after the owner of a local Flight school (KSQL) perished in a VMC demo. I hope your straightforward passion reaches impressionable ears.
Couldn't had been explained and reported any better!! Gracias Juan!!
That plane flew almost directly over my house shortly after take-off on that ill fated flight. Crazy to see my town on one of your videos.
My father had thousands of hrs in multi-engine prop planes. He taught me and my brothers to fly. ( including spins in single engine planes). Still remember him doing pre-flights and checking baggage areas. Pittss2c601 got it right on his "baggage" comment. Aft cg !
When I saw the Flightaware data, first thing I thought: possible stall spin crash. When I saw the aerial photo, my first thought: definitely a stall spin crash. No forward motion, all downward. Though I left Southwick decades ago, I feel the pain on this one as it is so tragic. Prayers from East TN. 😢
Whenever this guy does a crash video I feel like my Dad is giving me a dressing down after doing something stupid. "We've been over this before!" Love it.
My heart sank when I saw the header on my subscription feed. Geez, this is such a preventable accident. "Here we go again..." so true Juan, keep getting the message out, I'm certain it is filtering through and positively saving lives.
Everyone should pass this and the other linked videos on to fellow pilots and flight schools.......
Thank you Juan for your analysis. This was especially hard to watch as I knew the student pilot. We had worked together at an aviation job about 9 years ago. I've been a pilot for 25 years, including CFI. I'm so glad I had a very good instructor while I was getting my MEL. This has been an emotional week. RIP Chad. 🙏🙏
The added engine power affects the resulting gyroscopic effect, which Juan didn't mention but is significant. Engine at idle vs engine at high RPM will block the stick forward nose dive. Hope this video saves lives.
I'm old enough to remember the 1950's-60's TV series, "Sky King" which involved the hero flying either a Cessna T-50 or 310B. I wonder if he was aware of the spin dangers of these twins.
I've never had my multi-engine sign off, but as a former CFI I never did stalls below 7K feet AGL. In the 1st full turn of a spin you lose SO MUCH altitude. In a Cessna 172 it's like 3 or 4K feet. I can only imagine how much a twin might lose.
Fantastic insight, Juan, I shall rewatch this video until I completely understand. My advanced airline training in the UK 53 years ago was on this model Baron. I found it a fantastic aircraft and very powerful. We had a fleet of over a dozen and never lost one. It’s not cleared for spin training and the mantra was don’t get into a spin! It’s shocking how even experienced pilots are now getting caught out so frequently. I was wondering about as a last resort using power on the inside engine- thank you for showing what a bad idea! You do such terrific accident reports!
Was that for BOAC? Did you use Chipmunks for the initial training?
It's interesting that the Cessna 310R manual recommends trying power on the inside engine to recover from a spin.
Also was going to ask, did they allow anyone in the back when you trained in Barons? Were they very conservative in the way they approached Vmc demos?
Yes it was for BOAC in 1970. I thought the Baron was an absolute beast after 200 hours on PA28s. I thought the jump from PA28 to Baron was bigger than Baron to VC10! After upping your thought processes to get on the Baron, the VC10 was an easy conversion. We used to regularly fly around with 1 instructor and 2 cadets flying to different airfields and even with stall training. All we were told was 'don't spin- just don't go there!'@@igclapp
Im not a pilot but I work in risk management. I really don't understand why people are prepared to stack the odds against themselves when flying and take risks that cumulatively place you in a very fragile position. Twin engine, 3 people, training...... just keeps repeating 😞 Thank you Juan for all your factual education.....the frustration is palpable.
I've noticed people begin purposely stacking odds against themselves in All types of activities, certainly a psychological phenomenon.
Not for me, I'll just stay with cave diving.
Beautiful Summation Juan .. Many thanks , I’m learning so much .❤
got my multi in 76 or so in a twin comanche. i was told you go below VMC and the aircraft would go into an upside down unrecoverable flat spin. i took their word for it. cost 700$ in those days.
What, exactly, cost $700.00 in those days? One hour of multi training?
I just typed that into an inflation calculator. That would be around US$3700 today. If only! (in Australia, ab initio to MEI will cost your AU$150,000 or around US$110,000)
Thankfully I had a great instructor for my multi training. Thank you for this great (reminder) information. I am hopeful that your videos saves someone from these mistakes.
Excellent analysis and insight. See/experience this once,at higher than 5,000’ AGL. Then, don’t continue practicing it!! Dave, Baron pilot at 23 years old 37 years ago, retired airline of 40 years, 28,000 hours and I never crashed!🤞🙏🏻. Now flying my 1947 bonanza.
Juan, I can't overstate how important and informative your videos are.
Any budding pilot should watch them and let the lessons sink in.
As a MA resident I am all the more saddened to hear about this tragedy. My deepest condolences to all those affected. Thank you for covering this.
For those of us who fly zero or single engine and are unlikely to ever fly multi engine, but are very fascinated by the balance on the head of a pin that is part of every GA flight, please remember to say which rudder the instructor should block in training. The one to the outside or the inside of the Spin. I assume the rudder in the direction of the Spin should be limited but I have made theory in the past only to be surprised and learned valuable logic in figuring where I went wrong
"When in a spin,
engines at min"
Got it! Thanks Juan.
I survived my CAMEL training recently in a Twin Comanche. We had a stall light rather than a stall horn. If that came on during a Vmc demo, we would immediately recover.
Follow your POH. Some aircraft require a full aft stick before going full nose down. Nose down input is a pro-spin input. To understand, you need to think about gyroscopic forces, which also explains why you shouldn't add power and how power flattens the spin Some aircraft need to slow the spin down first with aft stick then break the stall with an ABRUPT nose down input before the rotation can speed up again.
You mean to slow the spin first with opposite rudder, not aft stick..
As a retired United Airlines Captain since 2019 I can say that the quality of First Officers I flew with were top notch. But times have changed and there are a lot of seats to fill now. United has a school that controls a student from day one until they get in the right seat of one of there Jets. This is a great model to follow. I have not flown a light airplane in over 40 years but not rushing training with students is essential.
I am seeing a few fatal accidents already in January. I hope that the accident rate stays below the 2023 numbers. RIP to the lost and prayers for the families.
Unless the damn FAA gets off their butt and changes how this requirement is done and limits the aircraft type it can be performed in, instead of turning student pilots into experimental test pilots, it's only going to get worse. Ask ones self why other countries don't have this particular requirement outside a simulator?
As an outsider with only a discovery flight in a light Twin Bonanza, it seems like one of the common denominators in these crashes is that 3rd passenger, moving the center of gravity aft. RIP to these aviators.
well said in Test pilots school we worked on the stall characteristics of T tails. including the tramahawk and the Seminole. its hard to spin a Seminole with the counterr rotating props and some other things...but we did. and we had spin chutes. you dont want to spin the twins.
Excellent analysis Juan. This should be mandatory viewing for those folks undergoing these demos.
I went many times on late night airline recertification flights in a 75 C310. Third seat with my flight instructor buddy and the pilot.
Before the flight, we always had a long careful preflight meeting going over the whole flight literally every minute including spin recovery. I always hated that part because I figured airline pilots would know the obvious. … it definitely had a reason for being including the spin recovery part.
I suppose I shouldn’t have been there but man what a great experience it was for me.
Absolutely the very best aviation training I've seen. My father had Travel Air. B55Baron and P58 Baron. He was a PBY squadron leader during WWII. I spent hundreds of hours in right seat with my single engine private pilot rating and never realized all these potentials dangers with light twins as well as with single engine aircraft as demonstrated with the Pitts special video. Thank you so much. Kind Regards, Craig
Unrecoverable flat spin with 14’000 hour instructor. This simply confirms to me once again that this dangerous exercise should not be done. I am guessing one of the engines was shut down for the demonstration. In Europe, we never do it. When I passed my equivalence license in the US, we did and it was my most scary flight, although I have practiced multiple spins on gliders and singles.
Juan is fired up! Crazy how such a veteran flight instructor allowed this to happen. RIP to all.
Extremely helpful report from you Juan! Although my MEP training is far out in the future, I already know what to look for when receiving ME instruction. It's just crazy to think that three experienced pilots allowed to slow the airplane down below the stall speed...
We had a bloke spin down from 17,000’ in a Baron (that had modified engines, one of which failed) here in NZ. It took a long time to arrive at the ocean.
When I was instructing MEL in a Twin Comanche Vmc demos were very difficult for the students to recognize at first because it was such a small window to identify it before the airplane would start to roll over. Teaching in the Senaca was easier because the roll was easier for the student to identify. Doing Vmc demos in a Baron or Twin Comanche is a lot more critical to identify sooner due to the roll over happens a lot faster.
I've never flown a twin. I've done many spins in single engine planes. If the plane is placarded for them, they are a fun aerobatic maneuver. If it isn't, it's more work and time (altitude) to recover and best to avoid. A good friend had to leave a perfectly good Stearman (for a few more moments) and use his parachute when he got into an inverted flat spin. He started with a lot of space but just could not get the nose down. Not enough speed for any control authority in the rudder or elevator.
As a long time GA multi pilot and Cessna 310 owner, I refuse to do any single engine training in my plane. I attend a simulator school every other year (opposite years to my BFR) to maintain proficiency. Risk management pure and simple.
We were taught (UK) and did Vmca demo at 2000 agl. When teaching i always rode the rudder to make sure the student didn't do something unwanted and always ready to throttle back and pitch down.
Going back 20 years now but doing it at higher altitude puts the Vmca closer to the stall speed from memory. Less power from the live engine reduces the yaw you are trying to balance, so loss of directional control is lower but closer to stall.. Less margin of error.
I visit Barnes regional airport periodically.
Not only is the terrain 800' ASL, but it is also somewhat hilly. Plenty of such terrain reaching up to 1,200 ASL easily.
Not the easiest terrain to learn to fly in.
Much easier to crash into ground that rises in front of you!@@Plutogalaxy
@@Plutogalaxy using this incident as an example if the accident aircraft was at 4,000 ft above sea level when it entered the spin and the terrain below was 1,200 ft above sea level then it would only have about 2,800 ft to recover before hitting the ground. 2,800 ft is not enough altitude to recover from a spin in a light twin. Minimum altitude to safely conduct this type of training in a light twin is 5,000 feet above the ground.
@@Plutogalaxy These hills, while not even remotely reaching heights like that, are close enough that they could pose some degree of risk to rookie flyers. Though they're definitely not an immediate risk. If you just do regular pattern laps, they wouldnt even be a factor. But if you do anything beyond that, it behooves you to keep them in mind. Especially in less-than-ideal weather or visibility.
And thats without the potential hillside breezes (smaller scale versions of mountain winds) messing with the local thermals. Admittedly I dont know if those would be a factor at all.
@@Plutogalaxy you are missing the point here. This accident had little to do with density altitude. The likely cause was an unintentional spin in a light twin aircraft that started around 4,000 ft above sea level over terrain that varied between 800 and 1,200 ft above sea level, leaving between 3.200 and 2,800 ft to recover before hitting the ground. As Juan said, if you get into a spin in a light twin such as a Baron less than 5,000 above the ground you are not going to recover. These folks did not have 5,000 ft and could not recover from the spin before impacting the ground.
@@Plutogalaxy Dude, you really don't get it do you? Here's a quote from your 1st comment: "except for hot summer days lowering the aircraft performance it made no difference" What do you think the definition of density altitude is? Density altitude is "pressure altitude corrected for temperature. In layman's terms it directly affects the performance parameters of any aircraft, and in effect it is the equivalent altitude of where, performance-wise, the aircraft “thinks” it's at. That is what you said, hot summer days lowered the aircraft performance, ergo density altitude. I read what you said. And again, I'm going to say this real slow for you, density altitude had nothing to do with the Baron stall spin accident that Juan's video was about. It was about getting into a spin in a light twin with insufficient altitude above the terrain to recover. Cheers
Be careful with light twins, in the wrong hands they will expedite your journey to the crash site.
Use the simulator when ever possible to try and avoid hazardous situations.
I am not a pilot, so pardon me for my question - if this VMCA demo is hazardous enough to kill people while learning it, why isn't that particular evolution performed in a simulator, or at least practiced there before going live?
I did ME training at Flight Safety in Lakeland, FL in 1994. That was very scary because the Piper twins were badly maintained. I'm glad I survived those 56.5 hours.
Thanks Juan for your passion! Appreciate your wisdom and insight.
Juan,
Thank you for this! I live about 60 miles east and have friends in Greenfield (a beautiful small New England city on the Connecticut River). Westfield-Barnes Regional Airport is about 30 miles south of Greenfield and is home to MA Air National Guard 104th Figher Wing (F-15)
Paul (in MA)
How many of these accidents do we have to cover before CFIs learn not to do this!! Thanks for your work JB!
There's a training film called 'Quit stalling or spin in" - made in 1943!!!
@@johndonaldson3619 They dont care for that. Juveniles want to push buttons, not work all controls hard as needed. Autopilot recovery button for all emergencies..
That’s my question too.
Are you insinuating that this instructor was a juvenile @@emergencylowmaneuvering7350?
The 55 is more susceptible than the 58. We’ve lost 2 55’s in the last 15 years. Same thing, training flights, VMC demo, flat spin. Same result. Great video Juan.
Juan, I can hear the frustration in your voice over this needless loss of life. There goes another flight school….. The procedures to fix the spin are somewhat counterintuitive (to a non pilot at least) so I can see where someone might panic and throw in a whole bunch of the wrong stuff, engine RPMS, etc. almost no time to fix the problem at that low altitude….
There's a video right here on YT called, " CFI Spin Awareness, Avoidance, and Recovery Training Flight ". ( I do not post links from other people's channels w/o permission ). Although it is done in a SE aircraft, it does show the importance of stall/spin avoidance training as some commenters have questioned. This CFI does an excellent job teaching stalls and spins.
Thank you Juan for the great job of presenting this incident. I especially appreciate the lessons that you bring from it.
This is an instance where a Flying Flea-style aircraft is so inherently safe, as you dump the lift of the main wing to lower the nose, and that re-attaches the flow instantly, while a canard (even when it is equipped with a fully moveable airfoil) takes some time to get the wing's airflow attached.
During a pullup, a Flea-type aircraft gets lots of extra lift, long before the fuselage starts to rotate, so again an improved situation, as long as you don't overload the wing.
THANK YOU FOR YOUR CLEAR EXPLANATION AND EDUCATION 😊😊
Gosh... amazing to listen to your technical advice--coming from a pilot beginning so young and long-experienced in both huge and small twins.
Thanks Juan, as usual, an outstanding synopsis of the accident. I can only hope that your excellent guidance on conducting Vmca demonstrations reaches the right people. Thanks again.
My old stomping grounds -- was an ATC at BDL and I flew out of KBAF back in the 70s -- doesn't mean anything but it hits home much more.
great explanation and presentation of a very misunderstood and deadly aspect of the natural progression of flight training.. Juan, as usual, you make it very clear how these spins happen.. why they happen, and how to get out of them.. we have students instructing students now more than ever.. and, like you said.. this is a critical part of the envelope to be in.. and without good knowledge of what to do.. things can get deadly quick.. during training, more emphasis needs to be put into the understanding that you have to pull the power out of both sides.. and stop even trying VMC demos with an aft passenger at any altitude.. the pitts footage shows perfectly how power flattens the spin.. great piece juan.. thank you..
I love the passion he brings to his analyses. Clearly he's invested in safety and helping us all learn - and maybe getting a little tired of having to repeat himself every couple of months. 🙏🏻
Juan, as usual, excellent presentation. Thank you
Just as I thought, I’ll bet it was during the VMCA demo. I respect that airplane with the intensity that you describe. Seems like this is happening more often and to very experienced pilots and DPEs. Thanks again Juan for posting this!
Be interestijng to know what the UK air force used to do. They used a fleet of bright red Barons back in the 70's for multi -training.
I live in Greenfield. The wearher was overcast with snow squalls throughout the day.
The temperature was in the teens for the day and it was very cold.
I was wondering if icing had anything to do with it.
And the Sukiyaki Rate was quite close too. OOhh Sooo !
Ive never eaten it.
Very educational. I would caution using a single engine demo to illustrate how power flattens the spin on a multi. The entire point of multi training is to safely managing the asymmetrical thrust when an engine fails. Centerline thrust in a spin will flatten the spin. To recover from a spin you have to stop the rotation. Asymmetrical thrust opposite the spin could aid in that. Very few twin POH’s have spin recover procedures as spins are prohibited in all twins that I’m aware of. The Cessna 414 is one of the few twins that does have spin recovery in its POH. Here it is.
C414 POH says:
1. Throttles- Close immediately
2. Ailerons- neutralize
3. Rudder- hold full Rutter opposite the direction of rotation.
4. Control wheel- full forward briskly 1/2 turn after applying full rudder
5. Inboard engine- increase power to slow rotation. (If necessary)
After rotation has stopped-
6.Rudder- neutralize
7. Inboard engine, (if used) - decrease power to equalize engines
8. Control wheel- pull to recover from resultant dive. Apply smooth steady control pressure.
I gain a huge appreciation for guys like Juan, Scott @ flywire, Dan Gryder, Kenny @ Hogs for the unrelenting requirement for strict procedures to be a safe and competent pilot. It certainly seems that complacency is a factor in many of these GA crashes.
Fly safe.
You should check out Pilot Debrief as well. Hoover also does a great job breaking down incidents and crashes, and he has done this one as well.
@@miragesmack007 ah yes. Forgot to add him, thanks. Great channel too.
Careful with Dan, he has a tendency to claim pilots are dying due to the vaccine before any facts about the crash are known. Really sloppy stuff.
DG may mean well but seems weird.
@@purrple.shadows He does go off on tangents sometimes. But he gets some stuff right…and trying his bit for safer ga flying.
Thank you Juan for your intelligent and heartfelt advocacy for multi engine training safety.
Sometimes the most experienced pilots are the most complacent or just plain robotic. I know of an incident in the mid 90’s where a recently retired high time airline pilot joined our club and was getting checked out in a piper 235. They filed since it was a low overcast day. From what the club CFI said, the airline pilot got instantly disoriented and lost control in the climb as they got into Imc. The CFI took control and recovered at low altitude but was terrified by the incident. The older ATP was profusely apologizing for the incident
It happens to the best. Also I have spoken to a navy pilot who mentioned of a stall spin incident on a P3 Orion. They dropped thousands of feet before recovery. I don’t fly twins or in hard IMC any more, I am too scared. Not ashamed of it either
Same happened to the chief pilot of a flight school i use to work at in Texas. Same airplane as well.