Fault Serve is Umpire Subjective!
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- čas přidán 31. 10. 2019
- Let's talk about a Fault serve and a Good Serve in table tennis? What is the legal serve? And some ridiculous umpire decision?
As a table tennis player, you should also need to learn the 8 simple service rules in table tennis. If not, the umpire can call you a "fault serve".
►Read the full guide here: pingsunday.com/table-tennis-s...
Special thanks to "Ma Short" and TTCom. Without their help, we can not finish this tutorial.
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The only thing professional about these umpires are their dressing code. The problem lies with ITTF. The umpires do not get paid. They only get hotel accommodations, not even plane tickets. Just like the NFL referees in years past, the quality remain poor until they get better paid and work full time. Make the umpires full time with a salary and let them do the important matches.
You are right Edward. Im also an umpire. And mostly we are doing bénévole for free.
wow, that's shocking...they should totally pay umpires and make sure they are of a professional standard. (Feel sorry for the players in the match at the end - until they get professional umpires they should give players the right to ask for a different umpire during a match...)
Two issues. First, LJK's serve is illegal because the ball disappears behind his head. Umpires generally don't call it because from their position, they can see the ball, however, from the opponent's position, the ball disappears momentarily behind the server's head or body. Second, a bigger issue is not that the umpire's call is subjective but that it is not called consistently. I've seen matches where the server makes the same illegal serve throughout the game but is only called for it at seemingly random times.
Nice to see you are making some vids again
Dear i am also a french player and referee and juge referee, fisrt let s start with a smile, muchoir ( handkerchief) must be written mouchoir in french.....then the fact is that 90 % of the serves are not really legal so 90 % of the referees say nothing, they won't give a warning to the player. So there is 2 possibilities, first if there are some rules, we have to follow them, second, if we don't follow the rules because it is difficult, we have to make them more simple. So about the french fftt rules about the toss: Le serveur lance alors la balle verticalement vers le haut, which means the player who serves tosses the ball vertically, it is not written nearly vertical so you re not right. the problem is that is is not possible to toss the ball 100% vertical, and the referees will accept a toss wich is not perfectly vertical. So about the fist chinese player in black, first it is not vertical, he starts the serve near the middle of the table and hit the ball near his line. second His hand is moving up, then the ball is tossed but really closed to 16 cm, then the ball is hidden by the head most of the time. About otcharov, the serve is 100 % not legal, and the referees say nothing so imagine the referee who will give him a warning one day.......so maybe be we should make rules clearer and easier to follow..........then saying that the referee is not here to teach to the players how to serve.......is there anybody who thinks that a referee will be able to teach to the top players how to serve? that s a joke........regards
Chen Weixing's forehand services were very clear, vertical, and without hiding (on contrary, the backhand service was slightly curved). These should even be exemplary of good services. I was surprised by the umpire.
i think the backhand serve of Chen Weixing it´s more "illegal" than the forehand serve. The toss of the serve it´s very nice and he dont hide the ball.
Hi EmRatThich Coach, I think Chen Weixing serve is perfectly clean and clear. These kind of umpires ruin the games lot of times. Even Liang Jingkun serve is clean. Dimitrij serve is little controversial as he throws really high, it goes more sideways.
You are right Rathan. Ovt serve is very high so it could be acceptable but its subjectif
ovtcharov's serve is legal because he throws the ball highly , so it would be still near vertical even though he throws it from one side of table to the other side . The problem when you throw the ball not high enough , it would be more curved and thus not near vertical.
The problem is why is that single rule is exist ? what the problem with vertical or not vertical serve ?
I'm an ITTF trained T.T. official. First, I believe the fault serve call is correct (no.7), you have to understand that the video you are watching is in a 'different angle' fr that of the official. I believe fr his side, the 'not near-vertica'l serve would be more evident. Second, an official should not disregard the rules just to have a 'smooth match.' Thirdly the one you are calling an umpire (5:04) is actually the assistant umpire, and they do not call the 'juge' they call the referee if they have a problem.
Hi EmRatThich! I'd like to know is Revolution 3 glue legal by ITTF. And does it give more speed and spin? Should I use that glue (with Tenergy)?
I want you to talk about doing a good service please I always miss the ball after tossing the ball this is my main problem in serving plus lack of spin when serving?????
Coach, the rules do not talk about seeing the contact point. This is what they actually say: "From the start of service until it is struck, the ball shall ... not be hidden from the receiver by the server..." Do you think that Ma Long sees the ball from 5:33 to 5:35 on the video?
Ilove that "redicioulus ampire!" hahahaha
Hi Emrattich, can you make how to beat anti rubber, thank you.
Practice and practice against one to start (your brain must know how to quickly adjust to the different ball rotations). If you play only against inverted your brain only knows how to react to these rotations, so if you play against one all of a sudden you can be a very good level player and still die against an equally good Anti player. You must understand what happens when/if YOU spin what options he has, so you know what to play next (if you loop, you may get a short block full of backspin ... now what ?!) then you can start practice. Other elements are lots of patience and be quick on your feet. I am an Anti player and these are my tips.... maybe the Coach can link you to some videos which explain overall "idea" so you can practice. Good luck 😁😁😁
Could you make a video for the correct technique for chopping and how to add maximum backspin in your hits 👍
While the throw of LJK's first serve was within the normal vertical tolerance level, that was certainly not a clean serve since it was obscured during flight by his head. This is in sharp contrast to Boll's serves, which are indeed clean. The comparison made here is severely flawed.
5:00 still have wrong serve, coz liang serve very close with body make to hidden ball , compare timo boll , zhendong n ma long no hidden n close body serve , n ball fall very near close with body liang
That's quite true. Umpires are just people who had some classes of table tennis rules and regulations. The fact that they're not even amateur players make them ignorant people and that's why these annoying things happen. Both Liang Jingkun and Chen Weixing serves are completely legal.
Hi Emratthich
Just like to thank you for all these videos
It has really upped my game and made me a formiddable force so thank you🙏
Thank you Shoba. Keep improving like a rocket
There are so few rules to follow in TT compared to other sports. To not follow the most important one (serving) is simply cheating. No excuses.
you are from which country
The worst Umpire call in my Opinion is during the Olympics Ding Ning vs Li Xiao Xia.
In particular the US umpires were noticeably bad in years past. Many years ago I flew to Atlanta to watch a World Team Cup tournament, which drew all the top players from different countries. Afterwards I bumped into an umpire from Hong Kong, the place where I grew up. We started talking and she told me she heard a US umpire snickering about giving Deng Yaping a yellow card, seemingly bragging about drawing the attention. According to her, it was not uncommon at all.
IMO - its sad to see only *some* umpires strictly follow this rule and call out accordingly. I've not seen an umpire calling out faulty serves by Par gerell or Maharu Yoshimura or Marcos Freitas and many other players young/experienced. Its surprising to to see the umpire faulted Liang Jingkun although he is not hiding. Either ITTF need to enforce this rule globally and make it a standard or dismiss it completely so the audience can watch an uninterrupted game-play.
phaniraj patel I think the point is best explain by em rat thick. The whole point is to ensure no player takes an unfair advantage and to not disrupt the flow. There is no point in forcing players to serve absolutely vertical or to fault players because their hand wasn’t immediately removed as long as it doesn’t give them an unfair advantage. But if somebody is using a non vertical serve to give additional spin to the ball or to prevent the opponent to see the kind of spin they put then the umpire should fault it. As in normal life there is the law’s wording and then there is the spirit of the law.
9:30 🤣
Nada justifica que un jugador se vuelva un impertinente patán en pleno torneo contra un árbitro, hablando se entiende la gente, y de inteligentes es controlar sus impulsos enervados por la adrenalina...
Por cierto, yo soy jugador de tenis de mesa a mis 57 años, y también fuí árbitro en los 80's
I want ask to ask you a question coach please , is it illegal that the ball is served out of the side line of the table?
Hamid Hamdane yes
Depends on what you mean by side line of the table. As long as the racket / ball contact is outside the table and behind the line that is parallel to the net then it is okay.
@@Hesselaer Go back to school.
It depends. Jun mizutani got a fault serve because he throws and serves beside the sideline to gain the angle advantage. But near the corner is acceptable. Very subjective.
Paul Ispaul I meant that it would be a fault serve like in the example coach gave. When Mizutani played against Zhang Jike (in 2011 I think) where he served outside the sideline to get an advantage.
This is the scenario in which it is illegal.
The thing is that the umpire is not in a good position to judge if the serve was illegal due ro it’s verticality specially if the player tilts forward during the serve, their view is bi dimensional.
Possibly, it's not fault no. 7. But it is not clean, either. The throwing arm is not removed as it should be. Instead, the throwing arm is moved upwards with the ball rather than instantly removed after having thrown the ball. This is a defined rule. There are serving rules, that have to be applied, even if it doesn't disturb the opponent, so this is not a valid criterion. I estimate, that 70 or 80 percent of serves in international competitions are faulty, but "let go" as correct, because there is just no "tradition" to declare them as faulty. So, faulty serves are considered correct in the public opinion and this leads to the problems, we see here. Take the Butterfly Apolonia Serve Tutorial video. It promotes a service, that breaks several serving rules at once. Personally, I'm completely fine with pursuing wrong serves. Hopefully, in the end, players use serves, that are correct, even if it may be a tough lesson to learn and leads to disadvantaging the serving player.
Exact. You have a sharp eye
At 4:30 you can clearly see it was a hidden serve.
In germany you have to throw the ball at least 16 cm up into the air - I thought this was international.... ;-)
Ohhh I didn't knew there was a white card in table tennis, when do you use it?
Time out.
you are WRONG EmRatThicch, the service rule says: "the player must make his service visible for oponnent, the empire and empire assistent", besides the arc, and besides the fact he uses his fingers to spin the ball before the arc serve, pay attention mr EmRatTich, you're supossed to be an empire right? (im too)....services must be ALWAYS CLEAN, the only way to do it is to punish the supossed "smart players" that break the service rules in may ways and gain a clear illegal advantage
No, this is wrong. The ball must be visible for the receiver, not the umpire. What would be the point, if the umpire sees it, but the receiver doesnt? The umpire is not playing.
@@nulldemokratiezwei7773 It must be visible to both the opponent and the umpire.
外国人吃发球，不说自己水平不行，只有找别人的麻烦。美国是乒乓球水平较低的国家，但是他对发球规则的执行标准却是极高的。乒乓球发球规则也有很多莫名其妙的地方。比如说球放在伸平的手掌上。玻尔，樊振东，奥恰洛夫，莫雷高则的球都放在弯曲的手掌上的。比如16厘米抛球，说是离开手掌后16厘米，肉眼如何能判断什么时候离开了手掌？比如球打在持拍手过去有效，那像巴西的那个两手同时持同一𠆤拍子，是否还合法？其实，很多规则的制定只是有人想在比赛中与优势方较劲，所以难怪对规则的判决会不一样，因为有些规则就是扯蛋。
Ma Long service at the end is illegal. the ball disappears behind his head :)
Was the ball blocked when it came in contact with the blade? Did the opponent challenge? Would you as a player even watch the ball in the air or when it hits the blade? It's tossed up. It's going to come down towards the blade. This rule of blocking the ball on its way down is not sensible.
Chen Weixing is very angry ,as always :D
Well he should be angry, he got called immediately once the ball was tossed from his hand
It seems like a fixed image in the umpire's mind that he would make illegal serve instead of judging "is this serve legal?"
Hi EmRatTich, I saw that match between LJK and FZD and was really bad the umpire's attitude even I could tell you that was decisive to make LJK lost the concentration and the match ...but I saw this kind of umpires actions since China Open when the referees started to push the player to play fast and many times the players took only a few seconds to define which strategie would make in the next point...I know that the rules are the rules and the player should follow them but the rules have a "spirit" of justice and if the player is not taking adventage and is not going against them deliverately the Umpire should be like a ghost...and nobody realize that is there....the referee cannot be more important than the players..
Carlos Aravena fully agreed. Except on the “taking the time” part as it can actually make it very hard to organize the events if players take their time between points :) but yes there’s the law and then there’s the spirit of the law...
You are right. As in the ittf book the role of the the umpire is to keep the match in a normal way not to disturb the match. Sadly.
@@pingsunday Coach. I am not sure if you have ever seen this. This video was close to 5 years ago at a regional Cadet Tournament Final in Russia.
Note. The boy on the right (the violent one) already had both a red and a yellow showing. So it was probably out of hand long before then when it was one sided and he lost 0:3. Also noted that he wasn't trying too hard at the last several points. In short, he was pissed and he tanked those points just to get the hell out.
Look at the very end of the video when the poor ass loser literally shoving the umpire to the ground! czcams.com/video/ns5_qNBxXTA/video.html
沒有人能證明一名球員在與裁判的比賽中變得無禮，人們被理解，控制腎上腺素使他們緊張的衝動是多麼聰明...順便說一句，我是57歲的乒乓球運動員 年，我也是80年代的裁判
What do you think will make a video about why we are losing?
There are a lot of factors. But it is mainly about 3 aspects. 1. Physical. 2. Tactical. 3. Mental.
1. Physical: Everyone is different. What you need to do is to prepare properly for a match. When it comes to evaluating your opponent, try to find out from the warm-up. What type of equipment he/she is using? This will give you a slight clue as to their tactics and style. When it comes to warm-up. Don't just blindly hitting the ball back and forth. Carefully reading the way they hit, the way that the ball rotates with various trajectory and arc, and so on. This will give you more of how they will play.
The match will often determines very quickly when you are out-playing your opponent, or being out-played. Try not to fall in their traps. Making a video with your match can perfectly analyze every single point. What you did right or wrong and the outcome. Then you can review and improve with your coach.
2. Tactical: Table Tennis is a versatile game and the crucial factor is if you can dictate your tactics properly. It is a percentage game but it is also very simple to figure it out. The more you can get your opponent off their strike zone by having them going further away from the table. You are controlling the rally simply because you have more area of the table to hit, rather than your opponent. The key is to move them around quickly from side to side and creating wide angles to limit their time and space. But also if you are on the defensive side like taking lots of smash bombs from your opponent, perhaps you should decide when you should power loop back when you see a good ball to hit, rather than throwing up lobs. As well, if your plan A is not working, trying another plan and not being so predictable. For example, the 80/20 short to long serve ratio. As well as mixing serves from different locations, plus other variations, can easily throwing off your opponents to get the match back in your favour.
3. Mental: Construct the point from start to finish. Concentrating on the ball and the footwork is fundamental. You can have all the skills in the world, but if you hit the ball too early or late, it is not going to work. Play the point one at a time. This might sound cliche but don't think too far ahead, or too down when you are behind. You have a time-out. When you are in doubt to give yourself a breather or you are in a crucial situation. Use it and carefully think it over. There is no use to rush and getting fluster. Especially when the match is tight. Around 8-8- or 9-9, this is the time whether you should opt for a little margin for safety, or risking it all for the win. If you see a ball that you can hit, even it is a marginal 50/50 at best to power loop, don't guess. Make up your mind and go for it. One of the worst thing you can do at table tennis is to second guess, which you will always paying for it in the end.
Remember, always fight for the last ball and point until it is over. Sometimes, when nothing is going right for you and you are down 0-7 on the final set. Don't worry and don't give up. Just do your best and making sure you got one point first. Then slowly turning the match around. I beat opponent after being dominated just like that, which from a 0-7 deficit, then I got back at 6-9, and finally winning all last 5 points to win 11-9.
There is nothing wrong to lose. We all do and that's why we play. However, in order learning how to win. We must find out why we lose and what areas we can play better. There are always room to improve and table tennis is a fantastic game because no one is perfect.
Hope that helps, good luck!
@@canicetang8837 It often happens that I mean 2: 0 and lose 3: 2 or I lead in the set 10: 6 and lose 10:12. I don’t understand what’s the matter, I feel that the opponent is playing weaker, but I can’t squeeze and win
@@kirillpupkov6314 It is not easy to close out the match. The key is very simple. Don't think ahead!
What happen is that when you are having a big lead like you said above. You will lose your concentration. Your mind starts to wonder. Instead of focus on your tactics and winning the big points to close it out. You tried to be too cute and that is the cardinal mistake. If you let your opponent to comeback or making stupid plays, like popping the ball up and not finishing the point. Then the momentum will shift quickly.
This is why mental toughness is crucial in table tennis. In the old 21 points rule where you get 5 serves. You can afford to lose an odd point or two. When it shrunk to 11, there is no way.
In particular when the score is close at 9:9 and you have the last two serves. Your mentality is to put a decent, high percentage quality serve to force your opponent to give you the third ball attack if you are ready. If not, be patient, press on the attack to give you a high percentage shot to finish the point.
Then, once you are ahead 10:9, you do have a slight margin of error. This time around, try a long fast serve down the line, cross court, or even a wide angle short serve that you normally don't do. Now, you create a surprise for your opponent to produce another unforced error or even a poor return. This will give you the better percentage and the edge to finish the game.
Table tennis is mental. It is all about game management. Not only to only out-chance and out play your opponent. But mostly, to manage yourself to focus and stay on the concentration for the entire match. If you can do this, you will win more often. Good luck!
Thank you coach .. feel sorry to Liang Jingkun .. although both players played well
Every national country have a own rules, so please make sure before play know rules in the game,
You are an ignorant supine. Go back to school.
In table tennis. We use only one rule from ittf. National rules dont exist
Totally agree with you on this one again Coach ! referees which are amateur players have no clue how to execute or read these serves (even top players can't) so how can they make a judgement call??? Again I go back to another Comment I made about Maharu, when the rules are possible to be bent then so can the "calls" ! I go by actual facts - So, if you go by measurements, then one must measure ! the naked eye cannot "measure" ... just like in Tennis they had to bring Electronic Eyes to make the PERFECT CALL on "the line balls" .
Also what in HELL is "NOT VERTICAL", Geometrically speaking there are only to answers : YES or NO .... not "vertical enough" !! hahaha
One of the top obvious players who will never send a ball vertically is Pär Gerell (top pro player who has a fantastic serve) ... he would never be able to serve or play for that matter, but like him there are so many. Again, too many strange rules which are impossible to judge.
adam dede olmuş hala hakemlik yapcam diye ugrasiyor😂
Looks pretty vertical to me.
3rd player serve legal
That not was ilegal service LJK 🤔😳
La exigencia de lanzar la pelota vertical no solo para que se vea, sino fundamentalmente para estar seguro que no se introduce ningún efecto adicional! Está claro? Y creer que se necesita haber sido jugador profesional para ser árbitro es una soberana estupidez! Imaginen si a los árbitros de futbol por ejemplo se les exigiera lo mismo. Lancen la pelota verticalmente si son tan profesionales y listo
2nd serve illegal
1st serve illegal
The Quality of the umpire in big turnaments is really bad thats true, but that mostly happens due to lack of expierince. In the finals only the good umpires are chosen. If you know the rules -> you know how to serve so your argument is stupid. It is the same though process like you need to be a good/better player to be a good coach. But that is not true at all - because a coach needs many different skillz. Otherwise only retired pro players could fill the role of the umpire - which would result in a huge lack of umpires. The ITTF just doesn t have the money to pay a pro umpire team. What really need to change is a much more stricter enforcment of the service rules. For example in the german open are always much more called services because the education of the umpires is better and they do have the balls to enforce the rules.
You are right. I really want that the retired pro player become the umpire. Not just the amateurs and old guy who will be the umpire. Your idea is great
Very good point ! I applause your comment " if the opponent did not complain, the umpire should let the play continue"
There is no sport where the referee awaits players complaints in order to make a decision. Umpire's judgement cannot depend on players complaints. Question : what would prevent a player to complain on EVERY single point ? The referee's job is to judge. The players are here to play. You can not mix it, it would be a bigger mess.
Mr EmRatThich NONE of these services are a vertical throw, for example on 3rd fault is the worst, in fact sooo bad that the hand is positioned at the table center line but the ball has such a non-vertical arch that the contact is finally made almost to the corner of the table. these are illegal serves. Period.
Chen Weixing's serve was vertical so it could be that it was a hidden serve.
@@StevesDataStore Also Chen Weixing as a player was known to have an extremely bad temper. That match was quite a long time ago in the US. He was pissed that he was losing to Eugene Wang, back then the Number 1 player in Canada who was well below him in the ITTF ranking.
That’s the whole point he’s making... they are not “absolutely vertical” but “near vertical” and on top of that there is absolutely no obvious advantage taken by LJK by throwing non vertically. It’s just his normal gesture and does not bother the opponent more than it should. That’s the spirit of the rule. Nobody is going to take a ruler to check if a service was vertical and that was never the intent.
@@bricecarpentier5817 Thanks for your response..in this case i believe the umpire does have a responsibility to at least warn JLK .the slow mo demonstrates a clear non vertical illegal throw. Compare Timos toss of the ball .. much more vertical.
You are right Adams. The main problem here is it depends on umpire subjective. I mean that the umpire should be flexible. Too hard will ruin the game.
It is borderline. Coach. But as an Umpire, Liang's serve would be a fault not for the toss, but the paddle struck the ball well inside the table. So the fault was given correctly, but just the wrong signal that's all.
He don t contact the ball over the table he moves it inside after it soo it is no problem
You're a f*ing joke. You can't judge that by watching this video. Both lack of perspective and lack of quality, don't allow to do so.
You are right Canice. Its very subjective. That’s the main problem I want to say. Its at the borderline.
@@paulispaul1974 Funny how you are the exact kind of players that I will have no hesitation to giving out cards to. I have no tolerance for players to disrespect officials and putting the sport in disrepute.
Furthermore, I don't blink to toss sorry ass crap players like you with foul languages right out of the tournament. Then perhaps reporting the incident in detail to further get the punishment you deserved. Do I smell suspension, massive deduction out of your ranking points, or an outright expulsion altogether?
@@pingsunday That's why as an umpire and as a coach. Always give the benefit of a doubt by leaving a 'slight' margin of safety. Therefore, don't stand so close to the table and leave a few inches away to be sure that there is no place in hell you will call for foul serves.
Your example to Timo Boll is a 'classic' one. In fact, I told my players exactly to follow his textbook serves.
As well, the ITTF are too timid not to calling foul serves when they were supposed to. Then when they start calling them, players will get upset. Just like tennis baseline judges calling foot fouls, when the players were clearly cheating even at the pro-levels.
Too often, I am very disappointed that at the very top level. Many of the pro players were getting away with foul serves. That has to do with tournaments with time restraint on match this on the courts. Also the reputation of the players might be more important than judging the games fairly by the rules.
It is time that ITTF should be acting like professionals. They already have big name title sponsor such as 'Seamaster' and hosting big money T2 Tournaments. It is imperative that they should have top level of officials who are paid well and travel with the ITTF tour of tournaments. Only then, you will have the consistencies and the highest quality of officials. In turns, it will make the game better for everyone.
dude its ummm not immm in umpire
Chen Weixing is a good player, he should be respected and I faced the same problem while playing in the nationals for the first time, a long time ago.
The clown umpire is just there to ridicule and destroy table tennis once and for all.
Nothing justifies that a player becomes an impertinent scumbag in the middle of a tournament against a referee, people are understood as speaking, and how intelligent it is to control their impulses enervated by adrenaline ...
By the way, I'm a table tennis player at 57, and I was also a referee in the 80's
1st
Umpires still could not make sure to use serve rules!!most of them pay no attentions to illegal serves while a few of them have gone far behind!!I think first of all Umpires must understand their roles!!
These umpires (besides being dinosaurs) are a shame for the sport. With their last rales of life they try to reach more notoriety than the players. They are abject and pusillanimous and - personally - in those specific cases I would file a criminal complaint against them and force them to pay compensation.
Clearly you must have anger issues. You have no respect for officials, do you? They are there to uphold the rules so they can be fair for players to compete equally. Otherwise, if there are hotheads like you who thinks they are better than everyone else. Then saying, I would file a criminal complaint against them and force them to pay compensation. Who the hell are you anyhow? You might have the freedom of speech to disagree against me. But seriously, where on earth is your stinking manners by swearing at me earlier? Don't you have any sense of civility?
The best matches will should never be involved with officials. The officials should only step in when there is a foul. Was that foul serve by Liang close? Yeah, it was but the ball will certainly lands well 'inside' the table if he didn't struck the ball in the first place.
One of the essential skills in Table Tennis, like Tennis, is to practise your 'toss' consistently so it always land outside the table. Give yourself a little margin and always respect the rules. Sportsmanship counts more than arrogance. Especially in your case!
Otherwise, this was you probably when you were young! There was a video where a poor loser at a Russian Cadet Tournament almost 5 years ago when he lost 0:3 badly. Then he shoved the umpire to the ground instead of shaking his hands.
Your asinine tone in all of your messages showed your lack of class as a human being. Have a nice life, you will need it! czcams.com/video/ns5_qNBxXTA/video.html