Alco PA The complete story
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- čas přidán 22. 06. 2024
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IMHO, the PA is the most aesthetically appealing first generation road diesel.
Enjoyable video. It brought back a memory of being at Richmond, California, for the last run of the PA’s on the Santa Fe. Standing next to the lead unit I felt so impressed by its huge size and image of tremendous power. I can never equate this with the “toaster” origin in its design heritage. What a fantastic show it’s departure provided with the roar of the engines and black smoke. My friend, Don, and I got chills at the magnificent sight and the historical significance this experience provided. A note: somehow, both SP and ATSF must have figured out what it took to get value from these locomotives, for they racked up millions of miles in service and lasted a long time in heavy use. Also, unlike Santa Fe, the SP rewire job allowed her units to MU with EMD units, so locomotives were mixed when needed.
Quite a bit of railroad history there. Learned much about ALCOs! Thanks so much.
Glad you enjoyed it
It's too bad the the 244 prime mover basically doomed the company. Alco really had some good locomotives on paper. Still love the old RS3's.
Just think, if Alco had taken a little more time to work on the 244, we would probably still have PA's running, on heritage lines, to this day. As there would have been more of them produced and they would not have gotten the bad rep that doomed them.
Thanks for watching!
The CVSR has seven FPA4 (CVSR 14,15, 800, 6767, 6771, 6777, and 6780), two C420 (CVSR 365 & CVSR 365), a C424 (CVSR 4241), three RS3 (CVSR 4056, 4088, 4099), an RS18U (CVSR 1822), and a LG1550 rebuilt to AP1620A (CVSR 365) spec. on their roster.
@@bobpaulino4714
🤦♀️
The FPA4 is based on the Alco FA, not the Alco PA. Like comparing apples to oranges.
@@AmigafurNot a comparison, just listing off remaining Alcos on the CVSR…
One of my favorite alco locomotive besides the rs3
Same here!
I own a couple of ho scale vintage Athearn analog Alco PA1's painted in the New York Central and Pennsylvania Railroad schemes and a single PB1 in New York Central. Thanks for uploading this information about this locomotive manufacturer.
My favorite locomotive. Pity that it was rushed.
Agreed!
I thought a big reason Alco stuck with steam was because during WWII they were actually required by the government to continue to produce steam engines whereas EMD got the contract to provide diesel electrics. EMD got a huge boost in the post-war market from experience gained.
Thanks for sharing this very informative video about this classic American Diesel locomotive.
The ALCO PA's were one of the most beautiful locomotive that ever been made. Save what's left of them.
Here in Mexico, 2 ALCOPA survive, one with the daylight colors of SP and the other with those of the Mexican railway and the latter still works.
I actually have an HO scale Southern Railway Alco PA, and it's a very beautiful locomotive, not to mention a smooth and quiet runner. It is also a really good hauler.
The prime mover wasn't the only problem with the PA1. The electrical was a problem that cause many electrical fires. It forced the Espee to redo the wiring on all it's units and Santa Fe followed suit.
As a machinist...I understand the demands of percise machining....and quality control.
Interesting that this video used some models to show how the locos looked. Turbochargers experience turbo lag where there is slow response to the throttle and smoke during acceleration resulting from inadequate air supply. EMD eventually worked around that by adding a mechanical blower that cut out once the locomotive reached a higher speed, and so ALCO was using insufficiently developed technology.
SP preferred PA's for passenger service over any EMD for use on Donner Pass and other challenging routes due to the robust GE traction motors and superior dynamic brake capacity. Despite this, SP embarked upon a in house upgrade to it's PA fleet in 1952 to improve turbo reliability and simply wiring with the first use of modular electrical components, naturally this program was of great interest to Alco who lent there support to these improvements. Upon rebuilding SP classified them as PA3's they proved extremely reliable not being retired until 1967.
This is all good information, but the narration sounds a bit rough around the edges, like the script hasn't been read aloud very much before recording the video. Take time to rehearse and read the script aloud for a while to let your mouth get used to the script which will smooth out the delivery. Also record yourself when rehearsing your script so you can listen and identify spots that still sound rough and to identify spots in the script you might decide need rewording. As a music student I had to do the same thing, just with music, and it proved most enlightening and helpful when trying to make improvements for myself.
Good stuff, just needs a bit of polish.
Southern Pacific was another railroad that kept it's PAs well into the 1960s. Also, one unintended benefit of the PA's long front end was better protection from grade crossing accidents.
The Espee and the Santa Fe actually collaborated to rectify many of the deficiencies of the PA1 in order to get some semblance of reliability out of them. They also collaborated at a later date to work mutually on some of the teething problems of a more successful model, the EMD SD45.
@@eastbaykidd8574 That's interesting. Especially since Espee and Santa Fe were arch rivals. Seems as though Espee liked their PAs for their dynamic brakes, which the road's E7 fleet lacked, and more robust GE traction motors.
@cris_261 a gentleman rivalry, as it should be, I reckon.
i am curious about the 241 alco prime mover...the precursor of the 244 and 251....i wish i could find a picture of the 241.....wikipedia has some excellent info about the development and bench testing of the 241..but unfortunately no pictures..it was able to generate 1500 hp from 12 cylinders versus 16 cylinders of the EMD 567 prime mover...kindly do an article on the 241...😊
Great video! The alco PA's we're always some of my favorite units. Could you do a video on the EMD BL2? Or the alco big boy?
Thank you. Enjoyed your video and learned a lot.
minnesota commercial rr has an eclectic collection of alco's in it's roster that are still used today.
Cometary may of been rushed but its a good history lesson for all. Where I live the PA was cloned because federal money didn't come so they coped it & put a British submarine motor in it instead. Enter the South Australian Railways 900 class.
Australia had a load of Alcos built under licence for years after that.
This locomotive looks right at home in the SW US and northern Mexico
Especially the warbonnets!
10:50: Man, those are CAR engines! I believe they are making Chevy 'stovebolt' 6's...
Nice catch! I think they are the stovebolt 6's as the pubic domain film I got the footage from is from the late 30's. Would have used footage from the actual Alco plant but I could not locate any
Thanks for watching!
Right! I saw those engines and realized they were WAY too small to be prime movers.
Magnificent video. I wish I could have seen these engines. I have to make do with my H0 models.
I liked your "keep the metal side down". Another rail greeting or salutation is "keep her off the ground".
Great video, footage and story
Thanks!
you should try to put top notch production to your videos because you're dropping top notch knowledge. I know it cost money but i'm sure it would be worth it and who knows who you may impress (not like you aren't already) and gain connections to/with. Every train manufacturer/railway company would wish to have someone like you shedding light in such a professional way - if they knew about you they'd probably thank you.
Did ALCO ever solve the crank issues with the 244 series? I guess the other way to ask that are there any in existence that still are operational. :)
Not completely but for the most part yes. They came out with the 250 prime mover, in the early 50's, which was a 244 that had been gone through, like it should have been to begin with. Crank shaft failures were drastically reduced with the version of the prime mover but not eliminated. The fact was that the 251 was almost ready for production by this point and the company just wanted to move on. The 250 was just to satisfy outstanding warranties claims as a drop in replacement.
@@alcobufff That's interesting and I wonder if there is a record of what locomotives were graced with that one! And if any still exist. I know the fa-4 got the 251's, but understanding what happened with the rest is something to research I think. ( for me at least )
A little side note; the PA was one of the very few typical North anerican diesel models that was exported, and I'm not speaking about the former SF and later DH units that went to México later in their lifes. There were 3 locos bought new by the 'Paulista' railway of Brazil. (and it wasn't the only local Railroad buying Alcos, because Central do Brasil bought some FAs that saw use as varnish haulers). 3 umits were aquired. There's one that still exists (it's basically a hulk), and it resides in the 'museum' of Jundiaí, near São Paulo. There was also a nose of another, being used as a restaurant in a road in Minas Gerais
So many people go on about how beautiful the Alco PA's are, but I prefer EMD E and F units. If Alco had given the high nose some down-slope, I think it would look better.
If the ALCO 244 was so bad how come there were many railroads that had good 20-plus years worth of service from them. The 539 had to be phased out because it was at the end of its development horsepower wise it was a great switcher engine but you needed two of them to power a dl109 streamline passenger Freight locomotive. The PA as well as the E8 with their dummy axles for basically flat land units which is why the railroads all went to EMD units with all powered axles for going through the mountains.
Great video. DH-19 is kept operable in Mexico.
“Keep the metal side down - and the *Soot* going UP!”
Thank you for a good, informative history lesson. Interesting the design came from an appliance designer. Too bad
quality control did not do their job when getting the foundation parts right (bearings and cranks). Still a good looking
unit. Can't wait for the one unit to get back on the rails.
Good industrial design seems to have widespread application, even with trains. Like with Raymond Loewy and the PRR
The Alco PA Also Pulled The American Freedom Train First
Too many compromises were made and corners cut. When you fail to plan, you should plan to fail. The marketplace remembers your failures longer than your successes.
Much like the American auto industry moving on from the 70's. It all came about, from corporate decisions to push the manufacturing rates until things started to fail, and only then slow it down. It made for plenty of failing products, and when they refuse to change their quantity instead of quality policies, it's the beginning of the end. It's the 'I want everyone to give 150% today' attitude of management; the failure to understand that 100% is all anyone can give.
I prefer ALCo diesels to those EMD units!
At least one of the PAs in Mexico still runs... it is used as a Yard engine in the Puebla City Museum, the one that runs is painted in the orange/grenn NdeM scheme (which officially never used when in revenue service in the FCP) the other is still painted in the SP like scheme (daylight scheme) but I am not sure if that onw has a working engine or just cosmetic... but both were running when they entered the museum more than 20 years ago.... nice video.
So basically ALCO would have survived longer and maybe still be partnered with GE had it not screwed up the 244 prime mover.
Yep! that's my opinion.
Thanks for watching!
I agree. Everything in the heads of ALCO top managers was rush-rush-rush to get it onto the rails and into sevice as quickly as possible with the minimum amount of time invested in testing because it all checked out on paper. What a hugely expensive mistake.
The video makes it sound like the PA car body design and structure were based on the FM Erie-built, with only the nose redesigned to differentiate it. What is the source for this?
The video narration isn’t very well researched or written.
engine crankshaft journals must be ...in line bored...a slow but percison process...with nooooo shortcuts.. crankshafts...must be machined with percision...or it will destroy itself. .alco definitely had quality control issues...
ALCO had their fingers on the fast-forward button for output production, and seemed to rely on the drawings rather than go the route that you described. Had they integrated with GE much earlier on the story would have been very different IMO...
What nothing about Erie lackawanna's PA's they were the last of the original owners of the Alco PA's and a little correction there are three Alco PA's in the United States Delaware and Hudson originally had 5 Alco PA's one was originally New Haven as a parts locomotive was sent to a scrap yard but was not scrapped
The New Haven ran the wheels off of their DL109's, during the war, passenger service during the day and freight service at night! They had a large fleet of switchers with the 539 in them, you seem to suggest that the 539 powered locos were un-reliable how so? I agree that the 539 had it's limits but not bad for a 1939 diesel that has it's roots as a large GAS engine! Can any one put together a comprehensive list of all the PA types existing please. Running, out of service, out of service skeletons in a ditch somewhere in Mexico etc. Thank you for the vid!
ALCO Diesel guy, do you have any intention of doing a series on ALCO's export market I.E. their World series units and India's 'RS' types?
Hmm have to see if I can get the footage.
Thanks For watching!
Of all Alcos and MLWs just for the Iberian Peninsula, that means a lot of work. There were RSCs, DL500, DL535, among other stuff
I don’t know which one I like better. This Alco or the Baldwin Shark nose.
The PA 1 is my favorite model of the train to draw a picture of
Yes...possibly.
Am building a model for S Gauge with smoke , Can you clarify the Diesel Exhaust location when under heavy acceleration and black smoke pouring out from where, which end and location. Seems we don't know in Model Train World. Videos are impossible to location.
u mean to tell me this train company used the same electronics in a toaster for an engine and they’re scratching their heads on why it always broke down
yes...a road...toaster!!! I just knew it!
Yeah, locomotive testing is extremely important but extremely expensive. Amtrak spends years on their testing of locomotives and rolling stock. You saw similar problems for the small motor companies in the US after the war. Good companies just couldn't keep up against Ford, GM and Chrysler. Ford and GM had deep pockets at the time and it was practiced at the time to keep manufacturing under one roof so to speak which allowed better quality control with the bigger manufactures. That's been a problem in current times with Boeing loosing control over quality.
What is dorpped????
Dosen't Napa valley Caifornia run one of these ALCO PA model engines?
Actually, Napa Valley run a few MLW FPA-4's. this is a Canadian cousin to the Alco FA, which was built for passenger service. It dose pay a resemblance to the PA except it is noticeably shorter and has 4 instead of 6 axle trucks.
Thanks for watching!
For move info on the fpa-4 check out my Alco FA video
czcams.com/video/SQdDFjpwefE/video.html
Maybe I’m Mistaken…However, I Saw A PA At The Grand Canyon Rahway Shop In Williams, AZ.
That's actually a Canadian cousin called the MLW FPA-4. It is noticeably shorter and rides on 4 instead of 6 axles and has a 12 instead of 16 cylinder prime mover.
Thanks for watching! Here is my video on that locomotive czcams.com/video/vydDnOUZSdM/video.html
@@alcobufff Thank You For Clearing That Up. I Saw The The MLW FPS At GRAND CANYON RR Shop From A Distance While Driving By. I Remember Thinking, “No Way! WOW!”. I Didn’t Have A Chance For A Closer Inspection. Again, Thank You.
The napa wine train is of the variety discussed
the New Haven had 60 DL-109's and they kept theirs in service until the 60's. they did yeoman's work running passenger trains in the day and freights at night. the last one left was used as a test bed power supply for the 3rd rail mu's that were being bought. And would have lasted longer if PENN CENTRAL hadn't scraped it for the money.
I liked the old alco s
What about the PA-3 units?
According to Alco's factory records, no pa-3's were built. Even though the D&H PA's, after being rebuilt, were known as PA-4
@@alcobufff I saw a roster for the Southern Ry that listed PA-3 locomotives #6900-6914.
Southern railway had PA3 after the DL109s
What about the FA-1?
czcams.com/video/SQdDFjpwefE/video.html
Honestly all alco had to do was build a carbon copy of emds 567 and then they could just out produce emd
1:04 It was SCRATCHED!
Ran some of these in Vancouver Washington when I was a young engineer they were okay but sd7s and nines outperform them
🇧🇷 BRAZIL 📡📡📡
It was called The Unofficial steam engine smoked and they did not perform well as a Burlington Northern engineer I ran a couple ammued in my const some of them died before leaving the yard or shortly thereafter they did not
like train
american locomotive built the most advanced steamers of the day but never made it in the diesel era. its a shame ,while emd controlled the market with howling growling gutless 2 strokes alco and ge used 4 stroke.
I know the appliance designers name it's roy patent
Roy Patton of General Electric i believe...😊
@7:09 Dorpped?
...keep what metal side down? lol
Hey Alco Guy! I just posted a video with the 1of1 Alco/MLW RSD17. Thought you like too know🚂🇨🇦🇺🇲🙋
Thanks for the heads up! Ill check it out!
What a finacial shame. :(
To build such a beautiful engine and have it scraped shortly after put into service. Wow.
I'll go has a really bad habit of rushing things didn't they I love Alco PA they're very beautiful aesthetically but piece of crap mechanically it's kind of sad anyways I'd say keep the shiny side down peace out have a great day
Copyright Crimes..Apple💯
ALCO always made beautiful Locomotives? Just their engines were junk?
Yes if they didnt do some cutting corner shenanigans then they would have been last longer
Electric vehicles are the same story. The old companies just can't see how obsolete the gasoline cars they make are.
Au Contraire ... EV's have way too many downsides and do not have the flexibility as ICE vehicles do. The infrastructure does not exist, the the proper disposal of used batteries and their safety concerns have not been properly worked out including the environmental damage caused by their construction.
Wait until you see lithium mine
This is false. EV cars are totally practical. There are millions on the roads today.@@spuds6423
I've been driving an EV exclusively for 6 years. Haven't found the downsides yet. Batteries aren't "disposed", they are recycled. The difference in energy to produce an EV is offset in about 15,000 miles. @@spuds6423
Really need to slow down a little on the narration - you're getting ahead of yourself which leads to stumbling over words. Otherwise, good history.
My favorite diesel. I did learn from this video, but would like to suggest some improvements.
First, know your script, backwards and forward, and rehearse it, rehearse it and rehearse it. You falter and stumble too much.
Second, don't show production footage of little automotive engines. Makes no sense.
I laughed when you used your model train set in place of images of actual trains.
Your basement is a mess.
Like redundant figures of speech much? KISS verbally too.
Great Video- HORRIBLE narration!!! SLOW DOWN & TALK SLOWLY!!! Other than that I enjoyed this Video.Thanx.
EMD!
Lousy narration. Read you mates (which I hope you wie to add your narration to the video. The narration was very stop start towards the end. Also the pronunciation of Morrison Knudson has the "K" as a silent K and not sounded. A poor job really.