The Mysterious Sinking of SS Pere Marquette 18
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- čas přidán 28. 06. 2024
- On September 9th, 1910, the railroad car ferry SS Pere Marquette 18 mysteriously began taking on water during a routine voyage across Lake Michigan. After discovering the flooding, her crew went to work to try and save the ship. A fight they would eventually lose.
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Sources:
www.wisconsinshipwrecks.org/V...
Great Lakes Shipwrecks & Survivors by William Ratigan
Shipwrecks of the Great Lakes by Dana Thomas Bowen
www.michigan.gov/leo/bureaus-...
www.newspapers.com/image/2394...
www.newspapers.com/image/3705...
www.newspapers.com/image/1182...
www.newspapers.com/image/2790...
www.newspapers.com/image/4692...
Music and Select Stock Footage:
Epidemic Sound: www.epidemicsound.com/referra...
Artlist: artlist.io/
Chapters:
00:00 SS Pere Marquette 18
2:09 Chapter 1: Great Expectations
5:18 Chapter 2: An Alarming Discovery
8:27 Chapter 3: Fighting to Save Her
12:06 Chapter 4: The Final Plunge
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I'd think that the issue with steering may be more significant than is realized.
If some of the rudder shaft packing became dislodged (due to lack of maintance and inspections) not only would you now have a point of entry for water (below the water line) but you'd have a rudder that'd respond in a weird manner as instead of being fixed on it's axis it would wobble on an eliptic axis. This would only become worse as it was operated (as more packing would dislodge, the steering would also worsen).
I've only seen this happen on a model boat once, but what was described made me think about it.
Agreed. It would be something that post-conversion inspection missed and something that might not have started until they departed on their final voyage. It's even something that could have been started before quitting time and then forgotten about on the next shift if workmen were reassigned to another task.
I’ve had experience with rudder post packing issues. It was a historic schooner from 1888. I can understand the problem and this would CERTAINLY be a problem in Lake Michigan. Seas can be confusing on that lake, for sure. Lots of times we saw that car ferry crossing the lake.
@@ajkleipass that is correct even todays so called mechanics over look leaking seals and gaskets which usually leads to more carnage so you have a point...
Rudder or prop shaft packing was my first thought as well...
I'm reading the book "Unthinkable: Who survives when disaster strikes -- and Why" and I can already see the effects of the cognitive biases described in the first chapter here; the reasons people stay in denial far too late...
Hi, I’m a naval architect. In my personal opinion, the only one of these that seems feasible is a blown out shaft seal on the propeller shaft.
In riveted ships, the plates are generally held together fairly tightly, and any gaps will be sealed by rust. The part of ship that experiences the highest loads is actually amidships, so the stern would be the least likely part to fail.
The idea that ships have large valves that would just admit water directly into the hull is nonsense, and is only true in Clive Cussler novels. Seacocks admit water into piping systems and there are relatively few of them. And any piping system is going to be checked before the ship is relaunched. Scuttling valves don’t exist on real ships, not even for navy ships.
Fascinating!
@@Floortile I grew up on the river, although I did my time in the army. I’ve been a water dog all my life and thought I knew a lot about ships. I never knew 🫣that there was no sort valve of the keel . It seems weird now looking at it but it does make perfect sense because a pump can pump right straight from bottom of the boat over the side or wherever its relief pipe is. Such is the power of belief and legend.
That is a fair assessment.... Yes an actual sea cock is a bit of enigma. I believe the story of an open sea cock is a bit of a fractured fairy tale myself. I think it may have been USS Sea Horse but I know it was one of our WWII era subs where plumbing was removed but the valve remained and on a trial run the the valve was stuck wide open and could not be closed. I know it was WWII sub for a fact. We had some valves like that on our Carrier where old plumbing was just eliminated inside but other fixtures remained. In the early 1980s as the ships themselves and planes became more valuable the Navy began a quest to do massive quick updates and refits. There were several incidents where dopes playing around with the stuff nearly sank war ships including two that I was on...
In order to scuttle a naval ship, one would have to set off explosive, correct?
@@secretsquirrel6257 Naw ya just pull out the little drain plug below the transom...
I love this channel. There really is something different about the Great Lakes.
The ocean, while sometimes devastating and destructive, is full of life. There is so much of it teeming at every level. From the open ocean to the sandy shores the ocean is FULL of the biggest and crazies things we can even imagine.
The Lakes tho, are very different. They are deceptive. They are mainly deep and dark and so very cold. They are not dead or empty but there is something much more theatening overall about a lake that keeps their dead forever.
This is such an accurate and poetic way to describe our lakes. My uncle is among the dead hidden in the depths of the lakes.
It happened when i was very young and i never met him since he lived in copper harbor and I'm from Detroit. He went ice fishing on superior in his back yard... then he was gone. Foot prints out to the lake, none back. His fishing hut washed up in the spring, but Thor was never found. His wife and children had to wait 7 years for him to be officially declared dead and receive the insurance money needed to get him a headstone.
@@SessaV I'm so sorry for your family's loss. And thank you for the compliment - means more than I expected. But that is exactly what I mean; the Lake itself will take you.
May Thor, and all our lost ones, rest in peace. Sleep well friends.
I've read a lot about liners on the North Atlantic, but don't know much about Great Lakes shipping. Ironic, as it's much closer to home. Your content is really interesting and well made.
Lots more losses on the great lakes as well I think
Chilling doesn't begin to cover it... These videos always make me think of my dad's brother, who was a medic on a hospital ship lost in WW2 in a convoy to the USSR. I can't imagine the terror of experiences like this.
Do you mean the Wreck of Armenia?
@@n.b.2385 I don't know what ship he was on, only that it was a hospital ship. My only information comes from my dad, who was 7 when the war started and can remember his mum getting the telegram.
Brave men! 👍👍👍
The Great Lakes, and the oceans and seas have claimed many lives and vessels. People seem to pay attention when the loss of life is great, but every soul matters. If one life is lost it's still a tragedy. RIP to the crew and passengers...🌹
People hear lakes. These are inland seas. I have been on them. They are nothing to mess with.
@@TheLittlered1961 I know, as a kid we lived in Lorain Ohio. My father, who was ex-navy, had a boat on Lake Erie. I used to hate it when, you'd look all around and not see land. At all. Lake Superior is like an ocean. They are really huge. And important. The ships that carry all manner of things save a lot of money, from if they had to transport by land. Those ships are very important to commerce.
The lakes are the deadliest waters in the world. Most people think it's a lake it can't be that bad. Unfortunately it can.
Rail ferries are amazing ships. I visited the S.S. Milwaukee in Manistee over the summer. Massive ship! But not having a rear gate was a real problem, I think. They might have been able to save her had there been a gate to keep the water from pouring in. As far as the cause, it was most likely a combination of broken deadlights and undiscovered damage in the stern.
Who would have thought that having a gigantic hole in your ship when you frequently travel a waterway infamous for rough weather was a bad idea. Nostradamus couldn't have seen that coming.
@@ShortArmOfGod I know. Regardless of whether it was the primary cause or not, having it certainly didn't help, especially when the end came.
Now with the big ferries here where I live, they were built smartly. The large openings for the freight deck are all sealed tightly shut with solid steel doors when underway.
I was aware of these ships carrying rail cars, but when I saw the "Milwaukee" several years ago, I thought "this is insane". (Even if the rail cars were empty) It just seemed like it was more trouble than it was worth. Very interesting history though, especially as a Michigan native.
Scuba diving or was it the SS City of Milwaukee you visited? 😁
The bravery of the men on the 17 is beyond measure.
To witness the horror on the waves as a ship founders, and watch as their crew mates drown in a failed rescue attempt, only to harden their hearts and nerves and follow them in; is the epitome of what it means to be a Great Lakes mariner.
FFS, I mention the name of the episode to my wife and she yells back, Cause it got a hole in it. LOL Sorry, had to share that one. Thanks man
Great video. Have always wondered how the ferries of this era could get away with not having some sort of stern closing as modern ferries do?? This was a design flaw in my mind and led to the loss of other vessels. What did they think would happen in rough water??
Even so , it was human error which caused the Herald of Free Enterprise disaster .
Eventually they were required to have a stern gate that would close to keep the water out. I think it was the car ferry MILWAUKEE that when she was found had her stern gate ripped and twisted by the seas. So not always perfect but better.
HI Thanks for the information on the Milwaukee@@scottyb68
Given how superstitious mariners are I am always surprised when ships are renamed with the same name as a previous ship that sank or was wrecked.
In more than a few cases, these names DO get repeatedly wrecked, as in the cases of the "Laconia" cruise ships and the various "Waratah" cargo ships from Australia. So it's not even statistically advisable.
Quite agree
IIRC, of the three rail ferries lost on the Lakes, two of them (PM 18 and M&B 2) were replaced by vessels with the same name, so maybe railroad management was less superstitious than mariners.
I just find it inherently disrespectful to reuse a name of a wreck with lost souls to its name.
Sure, names of ships that got retired can and should continue to be used, just not the ones that were lost.
Many people are concerned about the prospect of naming a future ship " Titanic" , and would refuse to travel on such a vessel under any circumstances !
you can still check one of these ol girls out in Manistee Michigan, theyve got the city of Milwaukee as a museum ship
Or you can ride on one in Ludington.
I wonder if they noticed the water ingress much sooner, would they have then stood a chance of saving the vessel or atleast stay afloat long enough to be able to beach itself on some shallows?
No matter what industry you are working in, detecting faults early is always the key to saving the day.
The wreck lies 25 miles from Sheboygan, Wisconsin, so yes, if they'd noticed it and engaged the pumps sooner, and they would've headed for the port immediately, they probably would've made it. Even without noticing it sooner they could've made it, what makes me wonder is the Captain's hesitation to head for land and his later hesitation to order the evacuation. He must've been overconfident in his ship's ability to stay afloat.
Thank you for this great vid, nicely crafted and informative. I agree with other posters that naming the replacement with the same name is pretty weird, and, I would suspect the crew would be a lot less loyal given the all too obvious history. But, as for the cause, like my garage roof, multiple problems, but I am shocked the ship passed inspection: "Doesn't let water in the stern?" obviously not on the checklist. Equally, I'm shocked that the warning about heavy steering was just blown off, as well as the oiler warning...they might have made the shore beaching had theyd been heeded.
Thanks for the video, Big Old Boats. It's always a treat to watch them.
Now just imagine if this was pre-radio: large, capable ship sets out while weather is well within its capability but never arrives. Debris from its train car cargo later washes up over a surprisingly large area. Over the years, no trace of the wreck is found on its planned route…
One thing I enjoy doing, trying to name the movies your clips come from.
My favorite, the Richard Dix clip of The Ghost Ship. A pretty good film.
At least a couple are from "A Night To Remember".
@@toddkurzbard Yep, a good depiction of the Titanic
@@lescook9021 timestamp on the Richard Dix clip?
@@merafirewing6591 1:47
Your narration and information presented is "to say the least" spot-on......
Another interesting and we'll presented video. Thank you for giving out your knowledge and love of the seas!!!
My favorite way to enjoy my weekend coffee is with a new video from your channel. Great storytelling, as always!
Those open-stern ferries just look unsafe, especially in turbulent water 😢
It would interesting to see video on the lives of captains that survived the loss of there ships.
What were there lives like?
Did they ever get another command ?
Jail like Scatino?
Redemption?
Tragedy like the Indy’s Captain?
Or quiet anonymity.
I’ve always found these types of ferries interesting, as it isn’t usually something you’d think about. A ship carrying railroad cars doesn’t sound real, yet it is. And a ship carrying railroad cars with a giant open end exposed to elements sounds plain stupid. But, it’s similar to the Titanic situation where they simply didn’t know or think it could happen, and when it did, they were ill-prepared. Great video!
There was a car ferry at one time which took cars from New Orleans, Louisiana to Havana, Cuba.
Thank you! Another well researched and enjoyable video.
BoB YEESSSS!!! What a treat to wake up to! Thank you Bradley!!
Thank you for covering this seldom known tragedy. Another superb documentary B.O.B.
Great work, we appreciate! 😉
Captain Kilty is buried down the road from me in Manistee, MI. Very cool tombstone….
terrific video as always
Love your videos. Thanks for such great content.
Thanks for sharing this. I always enjoy watching these. I was in Whittier, AK and remember seeing an ocean going barge with two decks loaded with rail cars.
Awesome video as well as the sad maritime history.
This is one of my favourites of your work!
I love these stories. Keep them coming.
another great episode. They have become part of my daily life that I am always looking forward to. Thank you for your hard work. 🤓
You do great work BOB!
Well done as always, thank you.
Excellent work!
Another excellent video. 👌
Thanks 👍
Thank You very well done as always. Cheers
Great Video. Love your style
you’re great at making these, with the music too it does give some horror movie thriller vibes, really cool🔥🔥
See, I don't think the captain was really wrong in this. Yeah not giving the abandon ship order when the sister ship was right there was definitely a bad call, but a captains duty is to protect his ship and crew at all cost and you can't protect your crew if the ship is going to sink with you in it. His priority to stay at stations and work to keep the ship afloat was indeed the right call, but the second the 17 was within 600ft they should have abandoned the ship or made a very hardy effort to try. It's baffling why the radio operator wasn't requesting for assistance when the problem was discovered because had they sent the message sooner their chances of 100% survival would have increased dramatically. Overall I think the captain was right to attempt to save the ship and keep him men in order, the only flaws are that a distress call wasn't sent sooner and that he didn't issue the abandon ship command when the 17 was well enough close by that a few minutes in the life boats would have been rough but doable.
Delaying the distress call was certainly a mistake in hindsight, as well as not heading for port immediately. They were not that far and if they'd managed to solve the leak, that would've been a simple detour, but just in case he should've taken it. But I started to wonder about the abandon ship procedure. Being on the bridge and seeing that the ship was doomed, it would've been easy to call for evacuation. What if he was not on the bridge but deeper in the hull fighting with the rest of the crew trying to save the vessel and was caught off guard with the rest of them? It would not make sense for the Captain not to see that the cause is lost and not order the abandon ship, but it would make sense if he was down there trying to assist and oblivious to the impending doom.
@@TTFerdinandthats a great point and well made.
You should have a podcast where You could tell spooky stories about wrecks.
Every single lake in GLs region has a tragic history. Even Eerie and Ontario.
All this tragedy, so many lives lost.
Maybe the Great Lakes still have surprises for us. Perhaps their equivalent to oceanic rogue waves.
As always , good video.
Just found your channel and it’s awesome! Love sea disasters and shipwrecks and all that kind of stuff! Also subscribed!
Welcome aboard!
@@BigOldBoats thank you 🙏
12:56 ss flying enterprise sinking, a amazing tale within itself
I just love this channel.❤❤❤
...excellent video... I have never seen the 410 foot SS Badger, ( last car ferry on Lake Michigan ) - built after C & O Railroad bought the Pere Marquette Railway - but in Chicago we have the MV Abegweit which is a bit smaller at only 372 Ft. long and 61 feet abeam. ( 6992 tons ) To know the Pere Marquette 18 was about the same dimensions makes this story more meaningful...
That Sibley warhouse ad is fascinating
Another great job B.O.B.!!! 👍✌️
Great researched story!
Truly a mystery that may never be solved unfortunately.
Great video
Very well done!
Re "How such severe damage could have gone undetected during inspection is unclear."
There is this possibility.
In 1904, in NYC, the SS General Slocum burned to the waterline, many burning to death, others drowning.
Subsequent investigation revealed the following.
All the Slocum's fire hoses were deteriorated past usability. The hoses split apart from water pressure.
The Slocum's cork lifejackets had also deteriorated, into dust. Cork floats only when intact. Cork dust doesn't.
The General Slocum was a death-trap for hundreds.
Yet some few weeks before, the General Slocum passed inspection. Why?
Because inspectors were paid per ship inspected.
Result, inspectors who made quick, cursory checks were paid more than those who made thorough ones.
I don't know if that was the case for the Pere Marquette, but that is an explanation.
The fact that the abandon ship order was never given despite the very obvious fact that the ship was going down really bothers me
Babe Wake Up BoB is back!
Thanks Bradley. 👍🏻
Interesting footage … Not sure how you got it but it did sort of tie into the story. Bravo.
The thing about the Great Lakes is it is shallow compared to the ocean the waves become very high but choppy as opposed to slow swells of the ocean. So it gets very violent because of that. A boat can literally drive the bow into the bottom while the stern is in the air.
How mysterious. I guess ships with low sterns - at a time when Health and Safety at work was not as paramount at it is today - were likely to be more at risk of taking in water……Anyway, thank you so much for a fascinating video.
Unlike modern ferries, early ships had no way that water on the freight deck could rush into the compartments below. Access to the deck was via a watertight door.
Since no obivious problem was discovered during the inspection, one would have to assume hull plating working loose. Causing water ingress which increased the weight and rate of failure.
Nice video!
= lack of freeboard in the final moments...
it is possible that there were rail cars slightly loose just in the right place to cause a fatigue-forming bend on one of the rear frames of hull, the flicker and rudder make this area comparatively weak to bending if the weight is not spread sufficiently from tracks... a slowly but steadily sinusoiding car would put shock weight on the hull structure in such a way as to cause a thin lateral gash in the all-metal bottom within a matter of 3-4 hours... the rudder moving with difficulty could have been a symptom of the warping of the hull....
Not the case at all. Study the hull prints of this ship and you will see that your theory is wrong.
@@FRLN500that would probably require actual expertise on the subject
which I don't have....
They started putting sea gates on for a reason.
There is a silent "E" on the end of the name Marquette so it would be pronounced as "Marquett"
He is pronouncing it correctly. There is an “18” at the end in some instances. There is also a “17” after mentioning the boat that responded to the SOS distress call, so I know that I’m not mishearing things. I do not know the significance of the 18 or the 17, but he is not pronouncing “marquetti”.
@@MillerVanDotTV The numbers signify the the assigned number in the fleet. It was simply "Pere Marquette #18".
Crazy
What happened to the stowaways? How did they know, about them?
i suspected a rudder shaft seal ..... ive not seen the back end of the ship but it seemed logical as it was reported a problem with the steering .......
I wonder if anyone else noticed that at 11:59 the American flags on the Pere Marquette 18 (the ship on the right),are upside down.
Yay! Another BOB episode!
Hello. I love your videos. I would love to see a chart of sinking in the great lakes based on months. Example I noticed that most sinking are in November. Im only curious of course. I want to know what months are the hardest to sail on in the great lakes.
She was found reliable “ominous strings play in the background”
oh, rail "cars".
Yes, car is the shortened form of the word carriage. In the 19 century railroad cars were called carriages. Gradually the term was shortened to cars. Of course there were no automobiles (the original term for cars) back then so there was no confusion. In the 20 century car ferries started carrying automobiles in addition to railroad cars. Today, the successors of the Lake Michigan ferries like the Pierre Marquette just carry autos and the ferries continue to be called car ferries, even though it's a different kind of car.
At first, I wasn't sure if I had heard of this ship before. In fact, I almost initially mistook her for the Marquette & Bessemer #2, since they both look really similar. But when that infamous postcard was shown at 12:40 depicting the final plunge, I immediately remembered that I had indeed seen her before. I'm not sure what could've caused this supposedly sound ship to sink in, from what I understand were, relatively mild conditions, but I do know that there's only one way to find out for sure. We found her wreck: now we gotta try and dig up the stern and see if there are any clues. Assuming that the wreck isn't too deep and that there isn't any issues visiting it that is...
If everyone who knew what was going on had perished, how do we know what happened?
Not everyone. There were survivors, but none of the ship's officers survived.
@@miapdx503 Not to mention whatever information was relayed via the wireless room.
@@zammich3649 The only information sent out on the wireless was that the ship was sinking.
I think a number of these types of ships sank,didnt they?
Are those railroad cars still at the bottom of the lake? I wonder what was on them...
I am guessing a few holes in the hull.
Sounded like a rudder problem .
I’d love to see your perspective and research on the Edmund Fitzgerald!
this remind me about a sinking of a polish train ferry.
after the bow visor failld it tok in water this happend during a sevrer storm.
at the time the railway ferry had a cargo shifing after that it sank.
it happen in port with the same frerry in 1982 if meory serves mi correct.
in that accident she got a list towards the dock side what hppend was that they forgot to trim her when loading train wagons.
when loading a trainferry it must be trimed when loading rilways cars.
🇸🇪🇸🇪🇸🇪👍👍👍👍
Canada's great poetic Rock Star, Gord Downie of
"The Tragically Hip"
penned the line;
🎼You can hear her whispered prayer
For men at masts that
Always lean'🎶
All Hail "The Hip"
👍😁❤️🇨🇦🍻
This seems familiar 🤔 oh wait, if youre a channel memeber you get early access 🎉 consider signing up!😁
👏👍
Do they even have car ferries anymore? That drive around the UP of Chicago would be well worth a reasonable car ferry fare.
So many astonishing stories from the Great Lakes! Great movies have been made of the Titanic and fictional Posseidon but none, as far as I know of the courage, the greed, the tragedies which make the Lakes so fascinating. Perhaps you should approach Hollywood with an idea. It's time.
Your voice is so nice
Could they not do a penetrating sonar scan? Like what they did with the bow of Titanic?
Does anybody know what movie the clip around 10:52 is from?
It’s a shame they weren’t allowed to question their captain back then because they could have actually been hero’s then.
I think the loss of integrity of the Hull due to the hard docking would be a cause of most of their problems. If the steel hull/s were damaged then so we're the seals around the propeller shaft and light and hatches. Anything that required a flat surface intersected by another surface such as a light a hatch or other point of entry or exit.
The Great Lakes would be one of the few things that could sink a modern aircraft carrier 😮 (assuming it got there somehow)
The crew all knew as the captain did too, twas the gales of November come early...
the video quality is insaine
What happened to all the rail cars they dumped?
We pronounce it "peer", not "pear". Other than that, great vid!
Slow rudder? Probably a hint.
Great videos. But you need to dedicate more time at the end and show footage of the wreck sites. Not just a picture or two.