The Visual Effects Crisis
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- čas přidán 29. 09. 2022
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Sources / Further Reading:
Inside Hollywood’s Visual Effects Crisis by Drew Magary - bit.ly/3LRjvHH
The VFX Industry is Trapped in a Downard Spiral by Drew Turney - bit.ly/3C3eDLc
KCRW Interview with Jeff Okun and Craig Barron - kcrw.co/3SHMik7
“Life After Pi” Documentary - bit.ly/3xZiojt
Pressure, Crunch, Blacklist Fears: The MCU’s Visual Effects Artists Speak Out by Logan Plant - bit.ly/3LTw05k
“I’m a VFX Artist and I’m Tired of Getting Pixel-F_cked by Marvel” by Chris Lee - bit.ly/3rhtOer
Abuse of VFX Artists is Ruining the Movies by Linda Codega - bit.ly/3ClgV9z
Fighting for a Piece of the ‘Pi’: The Full Story Behind Hollywood’s Visual Effects Problem by Bryce J. Renninger - bit.ly/3roDOm8
Editing the Buttholes Out of ‘Cats’ Was a Total Nightmare for VFX Crew by Laura Bradley - bit.ly/3SMLY3J
VFX Protest at Oscars by Jeff Heusser - bit.ly/3V2WoOH
Music:
Lex Villena - “6” - bit.ly/2BtObLD
Lee Rosevere - “What’s in the Barrel”, “What Happened in the Past Doesn’t Stay There”, “Slow Lights” - leerosevere.bandcamp.com/
Chris Zabriskie - “Cylinder Four”, “CGI Snaker”, “Perhaps It Was Not Properly Manufactured” - chriszabriskie.com/
Dyalla Swain - “Psyche” - / dyallas
You can follow me through:
Website - andrewsaladino.work
Twitter- / andymsaladino
Vimeo - vimeo.com/theroyaloceanfilmso... - Krátké a kreslené filmy
Whoops, small correction at 14:13 -- I accidentally said "Motion Picture Company" when the name of the company is actually "Moving Picture Company". Apologies - just a dumb mistake that I made while recording and didn't catch while editing.
Don't apologise for such a small error. Overall, very good documentary. I remember that Kim Masters interview when it came out. Here we are all these years later and I wish I could say I was surprised that things haven't changed since the days of R&H going under.
Given the sheer amount of work you put into these, the fact that there is only one correction needed is… wow. Impressive stuff. And great doc.
Don't worry. Help is on the way,
We are working on a law that bans visual effects from movies.
That will end the abuse once and for all,
It kinda takes the sting out of it when you add "To pursue tax subsidies."
Couldn't help but bust out in laughter at that statement.
Those of us keeping up with the history know who you meant. It didn’t even register as a mistake. MPC is a legend in the industry. Thank you for this heartfelt and well produced piece on this issue
As a member of the on-set VFX team for She Hulk, we knew the visuals were going to suffer from day one. Pure inexperience on the production leadership (mainly Director) set us up for failure. That is not to say that the VFX crew was inexperienced, as our on-set vfx supervisor won an oscar for Dune while we were shooting. I would like people to know that the visuals for that show are pretty well astonishing considering what everyone was able to achieve despite the lack of budget, time, and prep, as well as the sheer number of shots of the hardest thing to create in vfx, a humanoid MAIN CHARACTER. Thank you for illuminating some of what's happening in the industry. It makes it a lot easier on me when people ask what I do at parties.
Thanks to everyone who have been so supportive in the replies! It really does mean a lot to me!
yeah I saw some shots of She-Hulk and immediately knew the vfx team must have been going through hell. from one artist to another- I’m so sorry y’all have to put up with this, the shots can’t even look good despite all the work put into it and it must be crushing to shove so much effort into a project destined to fail
It's worse for She Hulk. Good VFX is not going to save bad scripts. While people started looking at the VFX for She Hulk in still images, it quickly turned to the scripts when people saw the episodes.
The bad scripts are what is killing the VFX industry. Batgirl, after millions of dollars was spent on it, got cancelled because of a bad script and Blade has a release date with no script or director now. Bad scripts lead to reworks which lead to reshoots.
Yeah. Sad thing that She-Hulk is a pretty shitty show that people will start shitting on vfx not knowing the suffering vfx artists went through.
Ohh man, from an amazing film like Dune to THAT? I feel awful for the supervisor.
If it's any consolation, though noticed, I didn't mind the VFX issues at all... But the writing was so awful that I couldn't finish it.
Honestly, that's probably mostly what we're dealing with. People frustrated with unfulfilling stories, unable to articulate exactly *why* they didn't like it, and then pick on simple things that they can articulate: "Me unhappy... Green lady look funny!"
Think about classic cartoons. No one cares that they're unrealistic and that their colors don't exist in nature. It's a simple story with slapstick comedy, but everything is actually well-written; every build-up has a pay-off.
Who Framed Roger Rabbit? was literally hand-drawn animation cells over live-action film. A significantly more complex story that still sells to this day, not because of the amazing work the animation and practical effects put into it, but because of the story and acting that was put into it. VFX only has to convey the story, it cannot create nor replace it.
That clip of Taika Watiti laughing at the special effects in his own movie is particularly egregious, because if the effects don't look real on a movie it's almost always the director's fault. Marvel directors keep insisting on green screening absolutely everything, and that's a great way to make your movie look like garbage. The reason why Michael Bay's Transformers from 2007 still looks better than most modern Marvel movies is because he made sure to have as much real footage and practical effects as possible. Most of the time, the SFX were superimposed over real footage so the VFX artists could make sure light and reflections on the robots looked as real as possible, and felt like they were actually in the real world. Almost everything blowing up on that film blew up for real too. People like to shit talk him a lot, but Michael as a director has an amazing understanding of how to make special effects believable and how to give his VFX artists an actually good grounding base to work on top off.
i do think in some way it’s out of Taika’s control how he can film his marvel movies. The studio gives unreasonable shooting deadlines that mean soundstages are required putting more work on VFX artists. Taika traditionally relies on practical effects much heavier in his other movies but i think Marvel forces his hand somewhat
@@liamwest472 That's a good point.
It was such a great contrast to someone actually good at being visionary like Dennis Villeneuve
A better example would be Gore Verbinski, who has an effects-background, and understood how to make everything look good while also telling a decent story, the latter being something Michael Bay doesn't seem to understand (given all the criticism). - And I'm talking about Verbinski's three "Pirates"-movies, which also feature a mix of both insanely meticulous practical effects, but also ridiculously "invisible" digital effects, especially for now 15-20 years ago. - And the subsequent movies also demonstrate how to NOT do it (for the most part, I suppose), because Disney probably also started to cut corners for thát franchise. - Those first three movies are just gems in terms of spectacle and adventure-films. They don't make 'em like that anymore and in a way they were some of "the last of their kind" (or quality). - The "Transformers"-movies could also be considered part of that generation, as they literally are, but also in how they looked or were made, probably.
@@liamwest472 - The guy probably has to say "yes" or "sure" to a lot of things, like pretty much anyone who works FOR Marvel/Disney. I don't think you get much of a say with such companies, as even a key person like RDJ admitted he doesn't, let alone Waititi. - You know, be a "yes man" and you'll get somewhere or risk getting booted. - It isn't without reason that we've also seen people come and go on projects because of "creative differences". That might be true, but that usually means that the higher power wanted something the other party didn't agree with and there wasn't going to be any other way. Kind of like, I suppose, Edward Norton wasn't going to have it Marvel's way, so he walked away from it.
"Can you make it look a little more uh, edgy?"
(artist increases a contrast filter)
"Make it a bit more... realistic"
(artist undoes the recent change)
"Yes! Like that! It's perfect!"
Just straight up the back arrow lmao
@Mark's Drawing Tutorials I feel like even Michaelangelo had to deal with such scenarios
Omg you hit the nail on the head, I cannot stand doing art for other people specifically because of shit like this. What I especially hate is people who "want to make sure they get their money's worth." Or "want to make sure they're keeping the artist on their toes." So they are purposely vague and obfuscate their true needs. When people are paying for art, often because the free options sucked but in their mind someone should just be doing it for free because "art is fun right? Why do I have to pay when I'm basically letting them have fun with my ideas!" They become very difficult and very toxic even if they aren't usually like that.
Classic!
@@DodgaOfficial idk if it's worth pursuing the skill anymore. maybe i should just "give up and back to farming" and let it be a hobby would make my life easier
Speaking of Cats. I have a friend who worked on Cat's VFX, and he was so overworked after that, he could not continue working for a long time. He was staying home for more than 6 Month just to regain his energy and mental health. I think it really broke him from the inside, since he wants to change his career ever since.
I went through severe burnout from work and haven't recovered, just editing pictures exhausts me. I hope he's doing better
PTSD - I'm deadly serious. 'Hope your friend has been able to find something else more rewarding.
Op, tell your froend to stop being anti semetic
I also worked on cats but only for the last bit of the show (4-5 months) as an artist, most people thought it would be terrible (especially my main supervisor) and towards the end there were issues with FX simulations, groom (hair) sims and animations not matching, so if you ever watch clips from the film sometimes there will be clothing which is slightly floaty, this is due to not all 3 departments using the same base animation (should be animation - groom sim - FX sim then deliver to lighting/rendering). This is particularly noticeable with rebel wilsons character during the rum tug tugger song parts as her outfit and necklace sometimes bounce when they should not. When it came to the last 2 weeks of peoples contracts I remember we were basically told to stop as they were not going to render anymore as the shots wouldnt get in the final cut anyway, so a bunch of people still pretended to work (for some reason) and I think I just watched youtube for 2 weeks, we all got paid so who cares.
omg.. that's so bad.. hope your friend is ok.
Of course Keanu Reeves is one of the only people to give his VFX team a bonus
"A very hefty bonus" even. To go against your own monetary interest, to an unprecedented extend, solely because it's the right thing to do, when literally no one around you would even consider doing the same.. it take much more spine than you'd think. What an absolute legend.
I want to work in a Keanu movie now!
"It was breathtaking"
That's how supply and demand works
I thought the same thing. At this point I'm convinced he is such a nice guy that you could burn down his house and he would pay for the gasoline, provide snacks and cool drinks while you do it and be like:"Thank you, I was thinking about renovating anyways."
I remember when the teasers for Sonic first came out and people immediately blamed the animators for the terrible design. I realised that people have no idea how the entire design process works and that the animators have no say in the final design.
I mean “animators” is clearly a blanket statement. They’re just referring to the people who designed him. I don’t think anyone was pretending to understand the whole design process for movies. It’s true that we don’t know anything though
@@Mark-xw5yt *”Nobody knows anything.”*
- William Goldman,
author and screenwriter
I had a friend who used to work on the sonic team. he said everyone thought it looked bad except for two suits at the top who were just like "this is it, this looks great" and everyone just shrugged and went with it
@@Benjamin_Bratten When the first Sonic poster came out (where he's silhouetted in front of light rings or something) it was the talk of the animation floor at MPC. We were SO sure that Sonic was going to go through more changes before he was announced to the world. We were spoiled by Detective Pikachu. 😅😅 Lemme tell you, THAT one has some horrors in its closet. If it wasn't for Nintendo Det. Pikachu would have been "Sonic Backlash 1.0."
And then they hastily changed him and made people think changing an entire movie was just that easy.
When I was in film school, nobody was allowed to eat/drink at the computers. Except the visual effects people. Because if they didn’t let them at at their computers, they’d never eat. Because they would never leave their desks.
I was on that campus at various hours. Even wandered in drunk one night to use the foosball table at like 2am. All the same Vfx people were always at their desk working.
As a game artist I can relate, during my school years all I wanted to do was learn as much as possible. The work in it self can be very rewarding when you get to be creative and work on your own projects. That was just purely enjoyable.
However in a studio you are always working on someone elses vision, which is really not the same and it just becomes work.
@@GhullieUser True for real, It broke my mind when I was so full of love for game design and development
But when the boss tells you to redo everything from scratch every single time I make anything, and on top of that the work was an absolute empty job creatively, it was just make this exact thing with no creative input from me, and I make it and he's like do the whole project over again, and again and again.
One day after being forced to come back on saturday because the bug tester just didn't tell them or me about a bug that was in the game, I just sat down and my hands literally refused to work, It was like I was completely mentally blocked off, I went outside my office got high on some weed, then kept thinking what to do what to do going in and out , all the while smoking cigarettes like a chimney, as I sat there it felt like a complete pointless thing, the whole of the development process became clear to me to be a complete inefficiency and then I went out and got high again and then I realised I have to leave I just can't work, but more than that I have to quit so I mustered up my courage and walked in again this time something weird happened, it's like I was In bright warm light of the sun and as I entered the building I felt like I was going back into the darkness as I literally was doing that, and I told my boss that my brain is just not working so I don't know if there's any point in me being here right now, and shook his hand and left, and somehow I feel like he knew I was never coming back from the way I acted or something.
I think the most important thing I learnt is that creation is only creation when you are creating, if it's not my own complete will and vision I can't even bring myself to develop without feeling like vomiting, but if it's something I'm creating from my inner love, I can work at an incredible intensity efficiency and for 30 48 straight hours and actually feel refreshed after that.
@@GhullieUser I wish I could remember where I saw it. I think it was a short or something. Someone was talking about the old saying "Do what you love, and you'll never work a day in your life." And how awful that advice is. They were talking about how they had gone to school for art because they loved making art, and then they started working as an artist. And all that passion died, because no matter how much you love doing something, being forced to do it day in and day out for someone else is exhausting. So eventually they quit and went back to school to be a lawyer. Now, they have a job that they enjoy, AND they have their passion for art back because they're creating it for them.
@cryofpaine can you say it in other words please I'm trying to understand what you're saying
@@gg2023I'm trying to understand what you're saying
There is a reason why this problem exists in several different industries (not just in VFX). We as people tend to overvalue the individual we see in the work rather than the team that actually worked on the project. Every time there's a big successful movie, you bet its success is given to the actors(whose names are adverts) or the producer(usually only credited to the most egotistical rich person that cries the loudest.) Essentially the directors, actors, and sponsors get all the credit because they advertised it despite all the extra back-end work that goes into the film. Working in visual effects is like working as a cook in a restaurant, no one ever tips the cook, they tip the cute girl at the register.
@Xdelta_ what you think about others as intelligent is perceptive, however I am in the same perceptive as you for this, I agree.
That last analogy is... painfully correct to say the least
I think many people tips the cook, what they don't acknowledge are the people that works for the cook.
@@GabrielF430 this is a better analogy tbh
That's true. I think it's also worth noting it's an industry with low barrier to entry (don't need a degree or license or even crazy hardware these days), which is very subjective, and many young people think is cool. That's prime for and over supply of workers, even if finding talent among those workers is difficult.
Furthermore, North America has also been trending heavily aware from workers rights and towards elitist worshiping. Just get another (engineer, technician, artist, skilled tradesman, etc.) their fungible and disposable. But your managers and money havers are infallible god's. No one has seemingly been able to buck this trend.
Former VFX Worker Here. My best war story is that I once worked through 5 x ~100 hour weeks in a row and went half mad 3 weeks in. In the end though, due to clients whimsically changing their minds, only 14 frames (so ~2/3rds of a second) of all that crunch ended up in the final deliverable.
I love VFX but it's just simply not what it was like 10, 20, 30 years ago. I remember a funny moment years ago where a very grizzly veteran lighting artist rolled up behind me in his chair and whispered in my ear "You know, I used to make double doing this" and then slunk away. From his point of view, this has all been going downhill for ages.
The other effect of this is that when conditions are that rough, most people who are skilled enough to leave the industry eventually will. While there are a lot of amazing people still in VFX, a lot of the best people have gone, simply because they don't want to deal with the worsening conditions and the poor lifestyle. Kinda like the Elves in the LOTR boarding ships for Valinor to never return. Simply put, the people who can easily leave for games, tech, etc., and make more money and have a better life, do.
I could go on for hours about this, but in the end it's just really so sad to me. VFX was so magical to me when I was growing up, and I'm super lucky and blessed that I was able to work in it as an adult. I have a lot of epic memories, and had a lot of exciting times, along with the painful ones from my time in VFX. It really is a huge part of who I am today. But really I simply can't recommend it for most people at this point.
Thank you for sharing your story ❤
I feel you. I left in 2009 for many of the reasons you so eloquently gave here. Nothing to add, just that talented artists deserve fair pay, full stop.
We legit have the same problem in games but there’s a senior shortage gap, 🫠
I feel you. Thank you for sharing this 🖤🖤 🖤💚💚💚
AND - dropping frames is always an reasonable little MacGyver hack to get through, not a sin in fear of wrath of God
This is the sad truth. That movies will continue to have worse and worse people working on special effects. Fortunately, eventually things will give. Eventually the size of the available labor pool will be so small that it can't keep up with the increased demand for VFX artists, and the remaining people unionize. The only question is whether or not we have an entire year where no movies get made because a substantial amount of the industry just goes on strike, or if the movie industry is willing to negotiate before they shoot themselves in the foot. My bet is on another strike.
I remember that time the Oscars were on and the guys from Life of Pi got the Oscar for best VFX and started talking about the hardships they were facing and they full on turned the lights on them. That was surreal to see, like they were full on just denied on stage. Fucked up really. And the fuckers in the audience laughed and booed at them.
Yeah it is just awful that this industry treats those on the ground floor like shit.
Yet another reason to say "Fuck you" to the oscars
That is messed up. How could they do that? :(
@@papasscooperiaworker3649 The Oscars suck for pretty much anyone who isn’t a world-famous live action actor or director tbh. Just look at the way they treat animation
@@_kaleido All of my favourite animations are cancelled. Bojack Horseman, Final Space etc. It's really unfortunate how the animation medium is completely and utterly disrespected in the industry. And the way it's looking now, it's not going to get any better: only worse.
I think the worst case of a VFX artist being treated poorly that I've seen recently was the person who got told by their studio that they had to stop creating their own comic, because it was a conflict with the industry work. Not that it was taking up their time, but that it was *competition*, that wasn't allowed under their contract.
I cannot imagine working in a job that requires you to be creative, while simultaneously crushing your passions that way.
Where was this said?
@@StuartLugsden The comic was Daughter Of The Lilies, and it seems like it was more Disney than the studio themselves.
Also, when I went to check on this, it turns out they have since wrapped up their obligations there and are back to updating, so that's cool.
I hope he/she left that studio
That sucks, man. They always tell me "look for a job that you love doing" but everything I love doing is always in a abusive environment like this.
Yeah "do what you love" the worst advice ever if it leads to being poor and stressed out. Having a good paying job with sane hours and doing what you love in your, wait for it....leisure time, will lead to a happier life. Sometimes having your passion turn into a job ruins it. It did with photography for me for sure.
the most abused people are artist' they exploit of passions. and then threaten you
You should work in a FIELD that you love.
Doing the "job" you love is impossible unless you plan on never getting a promotion.
@@jasondashney what do you mean by "wait for it"?
@@progunjack5556 Somestimes a piece of sarcasm, as if the thing they're about to say is unbeleivable.
Or they want you to wait for something.
But it's the former.
Thank you for doing this. My wife works in this industry and this is not limited, this is on EVERY SHOW. Let me reiterate, ITS ON EVERY SHOW YOU LOVE. All of them uses the phrase “fix it in post” and it’s a nightmare, VFX houses are dying at a fast rate and they’re running out of workers. Everyone is burned out and ready to leave, the new people joining are walking targets and gets abused by the current workers because they’re abused. This cycle is killing the industry’s quality. Everyone of you watching this should go to your favorite publishers Twitter and raise hell. Show that you care, for real. Suicides are rising at a unhealthy level and we all need to help each other. Please I’m begging you.
I'm sorry man but people complaining on Twitter isn't going to fix the problem
It's heart breaking hearing about this happening to another industry when it's happening in my own as well. Fortunately we're managing to turn it around bit by bit, in large part because people respect the sciences more than they do the arts, even though both are fundamental to the human experience and our enjoyment of life. But it's still soul destroying knowing that pretty much any company you go to work for will have had an employee that took their life on the clock, and it's just an accepted norm that you don't get breaks, or paid overtime, and you never actually do the 40hrs a week you're contracted. The grunt workers globally need to invoke a massive Fuck You, Pay Me stance and demand better working conditions - because certainly increasing profits never get passed on to us, only the cuts and redundancies and abuse from the bosses and the general public.
I pretty much tell every newbie I meet getting a good therapist is a must for VFX. Chronic sleep deprivation alone means your mind goes to some bad places.
Suicides are always unhealthy, but I get your point. :D.
@@happytrees6484 it can be a pretty effective way at sharing the info. a big part of the problem (as stated in the video) is that so few people are aware that it's happening. if we make it so that more people know, and enough of us are talking about it in the replies, there's a chance they'll give in eventually. not bc of ethics or anything but because they don't want to embarrass the company
Time and time again Keanu showing he was raised by loving parents and is a genuine legend.
WAOH WHOLESOME CHUNGUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"Raised by loving parents" what a weird compliment to give someone
I know his dad abandoned him. Not sure about his mom though.
@@roachdoggjr1940 If I remember correctly, his mom raise him well, working hard to feed both him and his sister and his step dad, the one his mom married right after his biological dad, shows him the craft and got him into the industry, they even maintain good relationship after his mom divorce him.
loving parents doesn’t equal a good person. the implication of that is that someone with a rough background would be a bad person…
I don't understand how an industry whose very existence is mostly built off the back of visuals can treat visual effect work so poorly.
Because the artist are a dime a dozen. When I got into the industry in the 90s we could command significant $$$ because of scarcity. Alias/ Wavefront Software was $80-100K and you had to run it on an SGI which was $50K. Now you can use Blender for free and create movie quality effects. If you quit or tell them to F-off, you're chair won't even get cold before the next person shows up to do your job...
The same reason factory barons treated their workers like cattle in the nineteenth century. Because its cheaper and they want to make higher profit. Welcome to capitalism. If workers want to have a say rather than rely on the whims of the overlords that hire them, they need to unionize and bargain for better conditions collectively.
@@ObsidianLife Well that´s the main cause for sure.
@@ObsidianLife Yea, artists for the most part are almost always comparing themselves to each other. Its hard to be actually confident on your work and and always thinking theres someone better than you is a double edge sword. On one hand it makes you strive to be better and on the other hand, employers can just use more time to find someone better that can do your work for less.
Having a union would be a great thing to the industry and hopefully it stops the tomfuckery of these big studios.
Ha, read that again, You're a genius, you just don't know it yet :)
I am currently working for the VFX industry and one of the things that stike me the most in the inbalance about how people are recruited :
- VFX artist : 10 years experience, knows all the ins and outs of the software -> "Meh, a little bit inexperienced, but it may do the trick for easy repetitive tasks"
- Producers : never ever worked with VFX companies, know nothing about how 3D remotely works -> "You are in ! Would you like a cofee and a massage ?"
Software dev is exactly the same. Absolute brutal incompetence and lack of interest from top, and lack of respect. They only care about $/hr and hire the cheapest. The curse was I really liked it and was good at it, but this disrespect and dead-end future forced me to quit it forever... I can't say that I am happier, but at least I am not as unhappy. I realize that I can't do it all myself, the other side has to hold their side of the table and not act like kings. So overall this world doesn't deserve anything good unless it starts to pay for it with real respect, understanding and money. We don't owe these arrogant self-absorbed a-holes anything! "The Good must be ready to use its fists".
@@DanOneOne Being told I can just copy and paste between projects without issues suck. How can you explain that just because one change worked with no issue that does not mean it will be like that every time. One time I told the client that what they want is like shifting a house while not touching the foundation.
Then there is the sale departments that livelihood is about getting business even if they do not understand everything they agree to.
The largest cause of these problems are the yes-men devs, buzzword slinger or new way are good devs, one size fit all devs and the doom-sayer devs. I am sure that the VFX have artist also causing problems.
Hei i'm not a VFX expert or anything but I have to ask. Cannot a producer have an adviser in the fields they do not understand such as vfx, so that they can gain some understanding
@@AdorianDelmore I am not in the VFX industry but I have worked on a project where I was an advisor. Even when they were given good advise they still did not listen. It took a few time as my co-worker said "Put their hands on a hot stove"
Worse there companies that send yes men or sales men out to be the advisor.
@@DanOneOne What did you move to after you quit? Maybe I may want to look into it. I do a bunch of programming, and am super passionate about 3D graphics and working really hard to make my own things really good, but it does not seem like it would be good to try to make that my main source of income due to the low amount of money in it, and if programming doesn't make so much money either... I wonder what does.
My high school video production teacher showed us Life After Pi in class and it taught me that there is someone at every step of the filmmaking process, even if you've never heard their name.
I also found it disgusting when news about Marvel and Netflix broke earlier in the year that they were treating VFX artists like shit, a common response was "they chose to work on it, so they shouldn't complain."
even worse: apparently its pretty common for marvel to blacklist studios if they decline the offer to work on a project. Like if they approach you for work and you say no? boom they will do whatever they need to to ruin your reputation to ruin your business. So its not even like they can say no??? This isn't so much about marvel as it is a Disney thing. They are literally so powerful that they will lose profits on something to kill another company. They've done it for years too. They wanted Robin Williams for alladin so they did everything they could to tank ferngully (a project he was very passionate about and would not leave for their big paycheck) so he'd quit to work for them.
I am sick of disney and the mcu and the shills. The company sucks as a movie studio and as human beings.
It's true. Especially nowadays with CZcams and global companies you have way more options to make money as an artist of any kind. If you stay in a company while being skilled enough to leave that's on you.
Yeah, it's like working as a PA on a film set... you get assigned a 15 hour shift not including travel time to/from set while everyone else has a 12 hour shift... so they go into overtime pay at 12 hours (which makes productions very reluctant to go over 12 hours) but PAs don't hit overtime until after 15 hours. It's also very thankless work...
The independent film industry has a golden opportunity to hit the studios where it hurts though.
The differences are of course that VFX artists require a lot more skill and get paid better than PAs, but... sigh.
I'm actually shocked VFX hasn't unionized by now. But, this is how all the film unions basically happened, because studios would overwork and undervalue their crews, so they protected themselves.
I have seen many a VFX producer deride the idea of unions openly, basically trying to scare off the idea. I have seen many artist talk down the idea thinking it would limit them. Hopefully now those artists see sense
I agree, having a union means marvel and other big studios would stop pumping out low quality movies and go back to the early to late 2000s where CG were actually treated with respect and care.
;)
This is why actual artists need to start holding more creator/directorial roles. You need the higher ups to be able to speak to artists at their level. Who better than a fellow artist? This rule translates to 2d animation as well
It also translates to action films, when the director is a stuntman (John Wick/ Extraction).
It’s also the reason the Pirates of the Caribbean trilogy holds up really well effects wise, the director had a VFX background and knew exactly how to set up shots. 16 years later, Davy Jones still looks like an actual character that they shot on set.
bingo, thats why theyre called directors; they need to know how to create their vision themselves, then employ others to help reach that goal faster. not all these trust fund babies running around the industry with daddys money wondering why the cgi doesnt look good enough smfh
Definitely. And we can help, by pointing out when prospective directors *don’t* have that experience. But, mainly we need to be vigilant and *talk* about vfx artists. Don’t let them get swept into obscurity.
As an ex-SFX Artist, trust me...this won't happen. It comes down to money and power. When a production company invest money into your project, they want a RETURN, not a great piece of art. That is absolutely secondary. To also be fair, trust me; as a life long artist and an art protégé I can count on a couple of fingers which artist I've known in the past 30 years that I would just give a budget and let them do whatever they wanted. I've even know some who were told they should spend THEIR money on the project and then all the sudden they wanted standards and practices instead of the free-for-all they said they wanted.
The answer is do independent film/ projects if you want to create ART. Show people how it should be done by leading by example instead of expecting people to give you money so you can do whatever you want. The secret there is that if you succeed, you can make demands instead of expected people to just give you things for no reason...
Very true
I worked as a VFX coordinator on Uncharted (liaison between the VFX vendors and the studio & director) and the disconnect described in this video is 100% accurate to my personal experience. Miscommunications lead to reshoots, reshoots create more complications, countless hours of work wasted down the drain and hundreds of artists working 100+ hour weeks trying to keep up with the studio's ridiculous demands.
Working with the director was a nightmare because he had a vague idea of how he wanted the VFX shots to look, but no vocabulary with which to describe it, besides repeating "This needs to look more *real*."
My favorite moment was when we were reviewing a plate (an original, unchanged shot with no added effects) in a scene shot in the ocean. The director paused the plate, pointed to the waves in the ocean, and said "did you guys do something to the plate? That water is moving strangely!" It took 15 minutes for us to convince him that there was nothing added. It was literally just water.
" It took 15 minutes for us to convince him that there was nothing added. It was literally just water."
That hurts my soul. It's amazing how disconnected those in charge can be. Their skill isn't in their actual job, it's in managing up, so to speak. They know how to talk their way into things that look good on the resume and they care more about that than their actual craft.
so cool to see people In the industry comment their true feelings and observations.
thisnseems to br the theme. directors and friends literally not knowing what a rough or story board is.. expects full renders in 10 minutes and then insane changes.
it's like csi tech knowledge.. zooming in isn't going to sharpen something lol.
it is pretty frustrating cause these flop movies, always the best part even if it got screwed over is the spfx and vfx. and it's clear wing rushed and no time is the culprit because of idiotic directors that think spfx and bfx is a snap chat filter.
lol if you want real we need money and a lot of time for rendering .
should have just showed him the render meme of the computer exploding
@@jasondashney but I think it really shows.. regular war people don't understand how art works.
u can't just make something in 15 minutes. rendering a lone is more than 15 minutes lol
I worked in video games, designing levels for an indie game, for a very brief time. The crew was nice enough. But the head developer would often give this sort of feedback when I would send in level snapshots: "It just doesn't feel enough like a (enter place here)." I was young and inexperienced, so the product warranted that kind of feedback, certainly. But I knew well enough to press him for specifics, and the response was always: "Yeah, I dunno, it just doesn't FEEL like a (enter place here)." After iterating a number of times on a number of different levels, and never achieving his desired product, I left games. I know this is apples and oranges, comparing my practically intern-level skills and an industry professional working with other professionals. But this comment resonated with me. I still feel burned, almost ten years later. Burned enough to not miss my hundreds of happy hours learning and creating on my computer.
I'm in education, now. I teach music. And I'm VERY clear and concise with my feedback; my students will always know what I want from them, and how they can go about achieving it. I don't regret switching careers, but at least working in games taught me that much. Funny how you can learn something every life experience.
Thanks for giving me an opportunity to reflect. Have a great night.
As an example of how great the tiger from Life Of Pi looked:
After the movie came out this old dude wrote the local paper round here saying like "why did you have to mention the tiger from Life Of Pi isn't real, some of us were happy thinking it was real" and it cracked me the hell up.
i was pissed off and sad seeing it was cg
What….I thought it was a trained tiger…😭
You guys do realize that that CG Tiger is still real it’s just on a screen and screens are real?
@@internalizedhappyness9774 um. it is real as in it's really on the screen, but it's not real in the way the human actor is. that is… definitely what everyone here was talking about lol
@@marnenotmarnie259Thanks for being a passive aggressive prick I my self prefer just being a prick but clearly I can learn from your amazing observations skill and say this entire conversation is contrite and simple because your trying to find some type of person of fits your ignorant archetype.
It’s a depiction of a factitious story of a guy falling off of a boat with a tiger! oh so spiritual oh my gosh wow he’s so connected with things around him!
Movie sucks, and if you wanted that tiger to a living tiger you can piss off!
The story of Rhythm and Hues and Life of Pi is basically a crime in all but name.
Making money as an artist often has this same narrative. If the customer changes their mind, they expect you to start again and they don’t want to pay you for the work you have already done. I always charge for the time, making sure that the customer knows they are paying for my time and not the finished product. If they are not happy with this I don’t work with them.
Don’t know about you, but I only offer one freebie. I’ll do a first draft, take notes of everything you want fixed, and then it ends with draft 2. Any changes after that are extra. It’s amazing how much more efficient people become with what they want when those conditions are in place.
Yeah, set the expectations correctly from the beginning!
I always felt really uncomfortable when actors talked about how they were told by directors " it's okay we'll just fix it in post." The Mysterio costume didn't allow Jake Gyyllenhaal to even lift his arms much. Editing the costume seems easier than taking all the shots of Mysterios moving his arms and editing them to not look stupid. It wouldn't have such heavy crunch times either. I loved seeing sets where they actually built out the area and probably feels more grounding for actors to get in the mood
We'll fix it in post gives the vibe of "it'll only take 5 minutes right?". Directors at a given stature needs to be always schooled on how visual effects are done so they have an expectation of a timeline to do all the shit they need to do in set.
But almost always its always the outspoken, primadonna douchebags that reaches said stature in the industry.
Christopher Nolan has talked about how digital cameras (allowing unlimited takes) and CGI has become a major crutch and excuse for lack of up-front planning. Apparently, he approaches it very differently.
Keanu Reeves being one of the few people ever to give a bonus to a VFX crew just shows how great this dude is
wholsome Keanu chungzs Minecraft good fortnite bad soy 100
That explains why effects in Matrix 2 and 3 are still some of the best in movie history. Those people were grateful.
@@TabalugaDragon the one with a hundred Agent Smith in Reloaded kinda sucked.. but for me the DBZ fight rip-off they did for Revolutions was awesome.
@@arvinjay336 are you joking right now? Try making something like that using the hardware of that time. Full CG characters looked really bad in almost every movie of 2002 or before. The montage in that scene however is incredible. When they show multiple Smiths in one scene it looks seamless and almost natural.
That was one of the most complex scenes to make in movie history and you're complaining about poor CG.
@@TabalugaDragon He is right to complain. Doesnt matter if the VFX shot is hard or complex to do if in the end it looks weird or cringy. I feel same way about it.
I met a guy who worked on Cats, I went to uni for animation and one lecturer that came and taught for a few months worked on a team that did the tails on the cats specifically, the thing about Hooper wanting to see completely rendered shots whenever he wanted screwed around *multiple* studios, the thing is because this team worked on just the tails they were one of the later groups in the chain of command of rigging the animation, but were constantly sandwiched in between communicating with other studios on what was going on
The way he described everything seemed like a total nightmare, ridiculous crunch hours, unattainable deadlines, etc etc, there was no way the movie was going to turn out good from the start but it’s a wonder that other films even turn out as good as they do at all with so many issues affecting the industry but a big big one is directors being total fucking idiots when it comes to vfx knowledge and understanding of the time and effort it takes
Not to defend the director but a part of the problem is the fact directors might be pressured with a tight deadline and budget. So its a big mess because studios are money hungry, but that also makes sense because if they lose money the studio goes down and the whole system of businesses collapse. Truly the public needs to support smaller and more thorough movie productions rather than the big ones.
@@thephilosopher7173 sometimes we just have to let things collapse and rebuild from the ashes.
Sounds like 3D animation nowadays has the same problems we heard about 2D animation. So what was the point in killing off 2D animation again??
this story made me cringe, clients like hooper are an absolute nightmare to work with
God cats.. didn't he want like but holes for all thr cats too or somwthing
In the music industry we fixed this a long time ago. You get 2 revisions anymore and you pay for a new session, this stopped the endless recalls of turn the hi-hat up or can the bass be just a DB louder. Even though recall is easier now with digital recording we still work as if it’s an analog session because time is time. If it’s our mistake we fix it but if it’s just an artist being picky out of artistic fear or insecurity we just make them pay.
this video made me tear up a little :’( watching actors and directors shit on their vfx artists’ work broke my heart, let alone the fact that no one is compensated for a job well done. artists deserve better.
@experience aeiou Not all of them, there are plenty of them around who are the complete opposite, who care about the artists and appreciate them and all their hard work and who do really think that they do deserve a bonus and to get paid.
I jumped ship because of this kind of treatment. Went to school for vfx and now I'm working in architecture doing renderings here because they treat me like a human being.
Sometimes that is a good thing to do. Work in a more relaxed job somewhat related to your major, and do side projects in your free time. I’m glad you’re happy. 😊
Good for you!
Speaks volumes of how bad the vfx industry is because architecture is also another industry known for overwork!
@@VocaFan4ever wait really?
@@muneebkhaki yeah, in many architecture industries around the world overtime is expected and crunch is the norm. Same logic as VFX - companies are contracted by clients who have no idea what kind of work goes into it and set unrealistic demands and deadlines. So, the fact that the VFX industry is another order of magnitude worse is pretty telling.
I wish all the VFX artists a happy unionization.
There won't be anything happy about that. Unions ruin industries: they prevent car manufacturers from utilizing their labor efficiently, they put chomo teachers in the rubber room, they protect dirty cops, their pensions fall on the American taxpayer, they routinely utilize non-union labor while they boast about how good unionized labor is, they prevent new employees from entering their fields with their ever-increasing wages, and they wield undue political and centralized power. Try listening to Thomas Sowell's take on unions.
Big strikes need to happen, they should strike while the iron is hot!!!
a union won't help - studios are spread all over the world, and even domestic ones are now in both union and right to work states. Unions would also do nothing to help the viewing experience at home. There are times an artist needs to burn the midnight oil to make a shot sing and they will do it happily if they believe in a project. You think the guys went home early on the Abyss or Star Wars? They stayed late because they knew they were doing something that millions of people would love for a century or more. they did it because they were building on a long legacy of film history and adding their piece to that story.
A union would ruin that flexibility. What needs to happen instead is ending state / government incentives and let studios build up a foundation so they can start to bargain. It'd be a hard slog but unions would just ruin the industry as a whole, or it would sap even more money from artist's paychecks and be a completely useless organization.
Unions aren’t effective in an industry where you can just choose another studio in Canada or India
@@judegnelson How did writers guilds solve that problem? Or did they not have that problem to begin with?
I remember hearing those comments from Tessa and Taika and being extremely disappointed, especially knowing the kind of hardship Taika went through to get to where he is, and the work he does to bring in indigenous film students to each of his productions. Like, I know he just says things to rile people sometimes, and its possible he meant it as a self-deprecating jab, but the lack of thought to who he was insulting was gross.
I really hope unionization is able to happen soon.
It always bugged as an animator, how Animators basically make the whole movie but the actors, who work for maybe a week, get top billing.
Well let‘s not trashtalk actors here who basically make an art of their own. Yes the 1% of actors make a fortune, I’m sure the 1% of animators/vfx/comp people etc. also make a shit ton of money compared to the average of 30-40k a year
If you want to criticise then it‘s the higher ups, same goes for „everything wrong“ in society
they replacing you anyway with Wonder Studio
It won't be long now before animated movies just use AI voices.
Yeah if you think about it, sci-fi / fantasy movies today are 70% CGI. They're basically animated films sprinkled with live action. Even on the scenes with real actors, 70% of the frame is CGI.
Especially voice actors who speak 10 lines in movies that are 100% 3D rendered.
I've worked in VFX for nearly 15 years. For most of that time I had a staff position at a company that wouldn't often take that kind of crap from the studios. If something major needed to be changed we would either push back on it, or tell the client how much more it was going to cost them, or how much more time we'd need to get the work done. In return, the work was always top notch, the artists rarely burned out, and I loved working there for a long time. Treating the artists like people results in a better product.
The only exception to that was Marvel. Worked on Thor: Dark World, and Avengers: Age of Ultron. Worst projects in my 10 years at that company. Pixel F$%# is exactly what it is. weeks of notes on a 14 frame shot (literally blink and you'll miss it), compressed schedules. Honestly kind of surprised they even bothered putting our names in the credits. I've worked on movies that couldn't even be bothered to add artist's names on a black screen at the end of the film.
VFX houses need to unionize every bit as much as the artists themselves, so they can collectively tell Disney, Warner Brothers, Fox, etc. to straighten up and fly right, or they won't have any CG for their lousy movies.
Exactly. The film industry is filled with unions, one more is a small thing. But they shouldn't look to the other entertainment industry for union structure, they should look to the construction industry. If a client makes a change and isn't willing to pay, then that change simply doesn't happen.
I cant tell you how many time a MASSIVE change rippled through the entire pipe and id ask "why didnt they even TRY to pushback?" and you'd just get that whole "well, how can you say no to (insert big studio name)". I mean its such an abusive relationship like none ive ever seen.
@@PaulGuy As an outsider who knows next to nothing about the entertainment industry... this astounds me. Essentially every project-based transaction in every industry has an agreement based on predefined requirements and deliverables with compensatory rules and limitations related to client requirement changes.
The VFX industry has reached maturity and if this video is an accurate reflection of the state of things then things need to change. My heart goes out to you VFX people. Thank you for pursuing your passions. I hope you start getting the fair treatment you deserve.
Unfortunately this phenomenon isn't limited to the VFX world, small companies that depend on contract work are all being corrupted. I used to work for what's called an MSP or managed services provider. It was an IT company that other companies who weren't big enough to justify their own IT department expense would hire to do IT for them.
I work there for 10 years and at first the owner took no BS from any client. They would consistently ask for things that were not in the original contract, would ask for increasingly ridiculous requests and get upset when we couldn't accommodate them, they would refuse to agree to update their infrastructure per hour contractual guidelines.
Then something clicked about 5 years ago, all of a sudden we were being told by the owner to accommodate every out of scope request. I even went to the CEO of one of our largest clients house and shoveled snow off of her sidewalk in the middle of the day per our guidelines, if customers had outdated infrastructure when we took them on they would agree to pay extra for us to update in 30 infrastructure to modern standards. Even though they would sign that contract, they would kick up enough of a fuss when it came down to it that the owner of the company would back off and we would be stuck supporting horribly outdated infrastructure that was inefficient, a pain to manage, in a massive security risk.
My theory is that the company owner realized that if we didn't bend over backwards for the customers no matter how ridiculous the request, there was another company that would.
@@PaulGuy Right? The studios wouldn't let their directors pixel fuck every scene if it ran the bill up.
As someone currently working on a Marvel film being released soon I can vouch that this is pretty accurate.
Well, hope that you all get better conditions, even if it is asking too much from Hollywood.
is it really worth it?
@@SwagHyde Gotta do your job haven't you. If that's how you pay the bills then you just get on with it.
Hey man , just know that we all , the audience love you guys just as much the actors or even more at times.
I'm sorry. I and many others out there feel for you. :(. When I hear 'delayed due to reshoots' I know you guys are going to get uh, shafted and blamed. :(. The bad thing is when vfx are done well generally they 'disappear' so good work doesn't always go noticed .:(
I have always been fuming furious that none of the real artists gets any attention at all in any form of media, everything goes primarily to the actors that is just a name and dose barely anything comparably, even worse if it’s moCap or VA. Those who put substantial work in it like writers, musicians, concept, storyboard, animation, camera lighting, cloth, hair, partials, animation and everyone else that needs a crew just for a detail. Freaking Rapunzel’s hair was designed by a team lead by a woman who’s entire career & education was rendering realistic hair both physically & visually while managing to make what people thought was absolutely impossible! Any coverage on that? *NO!* had to look at the BTS for that.
VFX workers at Marvel have voted today, 7 Aug 2023, to unionize. Godspeed.
Explains the quality drop. 😂
26 years of VFX for me. I did work at R&H but way before Life of Pie. The last big studio I worked for was Method. I quit because it was a sausage factory. Now I work for a smaller shop, Real by FAKE in Montreal. Small doesn't mean small projects. We even did over 300 shots on Moonfall. But our working conditions are awesome. I'm the CG sup. However, we do have to sleep at the work place... then again, we work from home. ;-)
Awesome to hear about your switch to a smaller studio :)
Reminds me of the differences in working conditions and expectations for crunch between different video game studios (which is also an industry that has a massive problem with crunch and treatment of workers)
I think these days, it's better to work for A24 movies coz they're heavily on story and not CG
Nice! I loved Moonfall, it looked great, and a fun film!
@@kaelthunderhoof5619 They're not mutually exclusive? Everything, Everywhere, All at Once used extensive digital VFX, and yet they were able to manage their scope really well, it looks brilliant and its story is fantastic.
I'm in the games industry and it's the same way. Designers all have fun inventing and testing the world, programmers get a decent amount of power over everyone else because the whole game relies on them, but artists are shoved in a hole and if they make noise they're replaced. Every day I thank my lucky stars I never took interest in the art side of games.
what is your job then? Im geniuinely curious
@@teachmetelugu7320 QA testing. The janitor position of programming xD
Considering everything I've heard about game dev, I don't think the programmers are in much of a different position from the artists either. I was hoping that artistic positions were at least less subject to abuse seeing how creative concept art can be and how little leads seem to care about excruciating detail, but I guess not. In the end, everyone below management is just a factory worker on an assembly line in these industries, seen as replaceable drone labor to be optimized to hell and back or tossed to the curb. I wouldn't envy the programmers if I were you. 60+ hour work weeks, extreme staff turnover and extreme stress and mental health issues are the norm for them.
I agree with 50% of this but I really don’t think it’s like that in every studio, esp not the ones I’ve been at. Generally scope in my experience comes down to the CD and good producers will know how to predict crunch and out of scope, designers should be working with producers…if they’re not 😬.
The other problem I see is I also feel like there’s a bunch of times where having 1 tech artist would have saved artists 100s of hours of work. They’re obv utilised way more now; but I agree a lot of artists are treated terribly but I think most of the time it’s not because designers “get to have all the fun”; vs teams actively ignoring producers & artist doing repetitive tasks that could be automated.
Programmers are hardly in a good position lol
As someone whose been in this business for 12 years, this hits on all cylinders. Hard to do something you love when the world doesn't see or know you, only the figureheads. Thanks for making this, please push more of this awareness out Bless
I like learning 3D modelling and animation, when I mention this to people I've on multiple occasions had people tell me I should join the VFX industry and work on movies. I tell them that's not a good industry to work for and try to explain the overworking and how they get shafted, and people react like I'm just trying to avoid an honest day's work. People just don't get it, and I'm glad you made this video.
My career goal is to become a videogame producer / director, and currently it's my focus to understand as much as possible about the variety of skills that go into production. That way when I do make it to the top, when I tell someone to do something I understand what it is I'm telling them to do so I can always avoid making unreasonable requests / deadlines.
You ever noticed that every time a studio changes its mind at the last second about a movie, it tanks, everybody's treated badly, money flies out the window and it's a complete wreck? Yet it happens more and more
And what prompts that? A focus group, a Twitter post, an off-hand remark from a studio executive. The director panics and thinks, "Oh no! They wont give me $10 mill to direct their next piece of dreck!" and starts demanding everyone start over. From politics to police chiefs, civilization is slipping back into feudalism where too few have too much power.
@B Babbich Your comment soliditates this all mayhem for one sentence - thank you.
Lmao if only it's because of a focus group or a twitter comment that prompt it cause that would imply the executive has an interest in the market or other people's opinions 😂😭
Just a slight note, I worked on CATS, I was there, the studio you were talking about, MPC, did work on it, but the *MAIN* studio behind it was Mill Film in Montreal, which also closed about 6 or so months after the movie's release. Mill Film was a subbranch of The Mill (which still exists), however we were on the same pipeline of MPC Montreal since we were sister studios under the same ownership, Technicolor.
MPC Vancouver was the main studio that was working on the first Sonic movie at that exact time.
Really great video! I appreciate the effort in shedding more light on the abuses of the VFX industry. Thank you for your work.
Oof, now if that isn't a foreboding name.
I worked on that film as well too as compositor in Millfilm. And it was insane if you ask me. But yeah i heard what happened and it was still shocking for me
@@digimei2143 You guys in compositing had it super rough, I remember. But, then again, every one did. I remember the day they sent out the email about wanting us working 7 day/week when we were all doing 6 day/weeks already, and the eruption it caused on my floor. The whole production was a complete mess. I hope you're at a better place now.
knowing how complex my work is, which is significantly less than film, i really don’t know how any films end up getting finished. i often watch the credits thinking ‘how did they even feed all these people?!’.
i worked in a similar situation at a newspaper a few years back as a graphic designer - having to deal with the demands of pushy editors who have NO IDEA how graphic design programs like photoshop or indesign or illustrator even works - and thought that major last minute changes to hours of work could be done instantaneously at the touch of a button and they would constantly berate their staff for not being flexible or talented enough to keep up with demands
Fun fact: when a VFX artist works with enthusiasm and fun he creates a masterpiece!
In my daily life as an editor, nothing bothers me as much as the phrase "we'll fix it in post". As for my private art life, I stopped doing commissions and only do what I please. It gave me back my joy.
they think everything is a snap chat filter..
My film lecturers have hammered in “YOU CANT FIX IT IN POST” so I at least make sure all my stuff is correct in the shot or do another take. I also don’t like editing for long periods so that’s a great motivator to make sure everything is good.
I still remember the first time I had a director who said that. He asked me to come over and remove someone from the background of an overexposed shot. When I got there- he didn't have any editing software, and his internet was too slow to install it that day, but the deadline was coming up. I sat him down, and made him watch me edit the person out in MS Paint. 29 frames took 4 hours and looked perfect. I trust he now respects our craft a bit more, and I'm thankful I'm one of the few VFX artists to have the chance to do that.
@@nubnubbud wow
This.
VFX is in danger due to their own success - the improvements in quality have been amazing - and now there is a higher and higher expectation unfortunately people assume this is all easy and don't understand the efforts required. As a photographer - even I have been Pixel F**kd. the public at large have an expectation and little care or understanding how it's completed. What needs to be done is that all VFX studios need to be part of a guild like the actors guild or something along those lines where pricing is set that is fair for everyone.
I totally get why they should unionize, but I only partially agree. Unless they get solid ppl as heads of those unions, you will eventually see how they get taken over and abused but this time across one (or fewer) banners. I was apart of a union that the company used to divide and conquer by giving better contracts to more senior workers than the junior's. I was the Junior.
I always cringe when I hear people say "dooooh, it's just CG, it has no soul. Just computer thing. So lazy unlike practical effects"
I went into photography to create content and realized that there is so much stock content out there. It's almost not worth it. Instead of wasting time shooting a sunset, there has to be a photo out there with the perfect sunset
"in danger due to their own success"? no, not paying post production people their dues is what causes the danger, always have.
It's not about what you bring to the table, or how good your work is. You can be an amazing artist, but if there are 100 other artists just as good as you, the fact is, you're disposable. The problem is that there's too much competition, the field is saturated, and whenever that happens, you get one party that can dictate the conditions, while the other party has little bargaining power. Simply put, there are too many good artists, and that diminishes the individual artist's power. It's probably going to get worse, as AI becomes good enough to automate some of the work that is still done by humans today.
This is an important point that deserves emphasis. There are no shortage of artists and VFX outfits willing to work for films they are told will benefit them: Star Wars, the 'MCU', and others. It's difficult to hold the line or push for unionization when the readiness of new entrants to the field undercuts solidarity. In this way, visual effects artists are not different from young designers who work without pay or credit on pieces for famous designers, or young chefs who work for 'star chefs'. In these cases they are offered an illusory chance to get a foot in the door. The only VFX companies that have figured out a way out are those like Framestore that have moved above the line and produce films themselves: that is the only way to control the terms of the deal.
Ai is a two way end, with the advancement of Ai the artist studios themselves can create movies on their own. Without the need of film studios. Ai advances in scripting, writing, language etc will empower the artist Studio to hire small number of writers and do the film themselves.
I definitely can relate to the over saturation part as someone who majored in graphic design. Even though I'm glad I completed my degree, I quickly realized that I don't have the motivation to MASTER the adobe creative suite and other software. Even if I did, the field is STILL tremendously oversaturated and competitive. Other than doing some design work as a side hustle, I don't realistically see myself making this my primary career like I once thought.
i mean, literal factory workers (a very replaceable post!) were and are able to bargain for good pay, that's where the stereotypical union man comes from after all. And although i can see AI changing a lot, it just reminds me lot a story of this translator. They said that since the advent of machine translation they were often hired to "just edit" for lower pay, but ended up going back to the original text because machine translations were just so garbage, but the person who hired them didn't speak the translated language and thus didn't get it. A similar kind of disconnect, i suppose
@@keegisuvakas6847 we are still talking about a different magnitude with the current development of AI, i get what you mean and things move in cycles but not every cycle is same there is difference in magnitude or else our progress as civilization wouldn't have grown so fast just in 100 years. I think AI is a complete different beast.
Every other profession working on movies in America has better working conditions than VFX artists. You know why? Because they unionized decades ago, before the Reagan red scare propaganda to systematically dismantle existing unions or make creating new ones more difficult. VFX came late to the scene, and it wasn't helped that they were often right-wing libertarian tech bros who thought "if I show the quality of my work with a marketable skill, the invisible hand of the free market will reward me for my labor". Well, it didn't, it just resulted in them being exploited as workers always are until they learn solidarity and collective bargaining.
I sat next to a guy from Rhythm & Hues on a plane a few years ago, he told me that to make things worse, they had used a proprietary 3D software so after the bankruptcy and layoffs, they struggled for work because they didn't know the industry standard programs that everyone else had spent years honing
That's rough
I remember hearing that somewhere else & thinking, "How incredibly strange." Both that they'd rely on something internal (makes it hard unnecessarily for new hires and even harder for anyone leaving), and how strange it was that they didn't just release it out into the wild when they went bankrupt as a nice fuck you to the studios that did them in.
@@hazonku Just FYI, their entire pipeline was based on Linux. Release the software in the wild LOL...trust me even if they gave away for free, it would not be easy to integrate it to any pipeline or have a new pipeline which you could put together. I remember a studio called Prana took over them and thought they could do the same level of VFX as R&H. Yes sure why not. The reason they had proprietary software were quite a few. They did not have to pay some ridiculous amount to a software company to keep buying licences (Though they did have a few licenses for cross studio integration and some specific usage but that was minimum). Their inhouse software was constantly being updated to adapt to new shows. Their Comp software ICY was waaaay ahead of its time especially for lighting in comp. Their renderer WREN was kickass way back.
@@rahuldasgupta1491 Yeah. When there's no software because nobody has done it before, you write your own and then when you need something new, it's easier to modify what you know rather than move to something else. It can be done but what's the motivation from the studio's point of view?
@@chaos.cornerReferring to R&H here. The time they started, sure they developed their own software and set up a vfx pipeline especially for creature based shows which they knew very well.
Over the years so many softwares have come and gone. AFAIK, they had a small team of in-house software developers who maintained and grew the software as per their requirement for a show. Yes I can agree that it would be a challenge to move out of such a place and go to a studio which worked with conventional 3d software. This would be massively crazy if you were a generalist. However if you were a specialist animator or compositor or modeller, you could pick up the tools on any software. Principles still remained same.They also understood that not all disciplines of 3d like zbrush for modelling could be emulated by them. So they did integration of certain off the shelf software with their main pipeline with time.This reduced their cost of licence ownership based on shows.
If VFX are going to be used as heavily as they are the film industry needs to start using the same process as animated films. Story board heavily, make animatics of every scene, have the film edited before you even start filming. Then sweeping changes and reshoots can be prevented.
They should’ve started doing this 20 years ago.
Are you looking forward to even more directors from an animation background directing live-action movies?
While the suggestion is good in theory, it's not practical to film this way for live action movies/television. A film set will have all sorts of strange challenges you won't be able to anticipate until filming starts. This can include poor weather, actors not being available for certain shots, location not giving you the angles you want, equipment failure, and so on.
Plus creative endeavours always require iteration. What you put on your storyboard/script will generally not play out exactly how you had it in your head. Even budgeting for these types of things is difficult because there are so many unknowns when working with any creative medium.
David Sandberg (Director of Shazam) did a great video about exactly this czcams.com/video/mzNS4U_aE28/video.html
@@andrewgebert5718 I'm aware of all that, and I don't think my suggestion would change that a certain amount of change is necessary as part of the filmmaking process.
But unnecessary changes based in rewrites or redesigns could be prevented using this method.
Or we take a step away from VFX ( thus there will also be more budget per worker left, meaning fairer pay ), and start using real effects again, building sets, etc
I mean some movies are shot almost entirely infront of green screens, im talking about urban movies here, eg whole skies are edited in because the current night sky wasn't perfect, ...
Thank you so much for making this. As a VFX artist working on a off for 20 years this has been the story time after time for my entire career. And as you say it keeps getting worse. Which is why I no longer work in the industry. I am grateful to finaly feel understood with this documentary literally saying everything that has happened to me in my time VFX over the years. I loved working in VFX but now only feel burnt out and cynical. Thanks again for shedding light on this insidious situation.
As someone who wants to go into VFX this is slightly discouraging :( What do you do now?
@@Sydwiz9999 up up up
same as Sydwiz9999 question
As a designer, motion graphic artist and illustrator i can relate to that. We never get the credit we deserve. Only the nights of hard work and the bad words. Everyone thinks that it´s easy like pressing 3 keys on the keyboard.
Actions speak louder than words Keanu reeves is such a good dude
He only takes a small percentage of his salary from acting and distributes the rest and doesn’t make it about him. The only reason anyone knows his humbling actions is from others who have made these claims. Keanu, does what a caring person in his position would do. He definitely puts his money where his mouth is. He is deserving of the praise and respect. If only our politicians and his fellow thespians could honestly do what he does.
You have no idea what sort of person he is.
@@glennwatson3313 true, but you can make an inference
Gee I wonder why everyone forgets George Lucas.
@@glennwatson3313 as someone who knows multiple people who have met him including a family member (they catered and served him at a hotel they worked at), he is as the rumours say.
He is incredibly kind to waiter staff, doesnt have weirdly specific or possibly rude requests regarding room service or table service, kept his room incredibly clean (other celebs that stayed have often ruined bed sheets or other things and then expected compensation for what they themselves did) and he enjoys a nice cup of coffee or tea in the morning outside enjoying the scenery. He is also socially awkward. In the wild keanu is just as sweet as the rumours say.
This is why the problem isn't ever the use of CGI. CGI done right looks incredible, its the insane timeframes and demands put on the humans making this stuff to brings about poor end results.
the problem is definitely sometimes the use of CGI, when the entire movie is shot on green screen the actors cant give good performances, i.e. the hobbit movies where even ian mckellan couldnt perform because he had nothing to go off of. contrast this to older movies like Alien(s) for example, where most of it was shot on real sets with actors holding real props which looks better than most CGI ever could and helps the actors portray their characters better.
@@TheSuperappelflap As I said, when CGI is done right. ANY tool thats used badly will end up in bad results, this is not something unique to CGI. Minatures, puppetry and stop motion can look god awful when done badly too. Also we now have the tools to place the actors directly within the CGI space, as is done with the Mandalorian, which really helps the performance when the actors themselves can literally see the virtual world around them.
And honestly... I forsee them trying to jump on the ai bonanza from this year and trying to cut vfx even deeper
God this was incredibly well made and edited!! The point about VFX being effectively invisible and expected in cinema nowadays, adding to how misunderstood VFX work is done has just increased how unknown these artists are being pushed to burnout. Unionization for VFX artists must happen, and very soon.
This is why we need practical effects in movies to make a comeback. It seems like Christopher Nolan is the only director who uses practical effects in any decent sized amount.
Don't forget about George Miller
It does not matter, if they do not value the people doing the work then changing the work is not going to improve the situation. Look at what happened at the practical effects for the 2011 the thing.
@@alyssaakabob Agreed.
Scope-creep situations are something artists in general have to deal with when working for a client or company. Non-artists do not understand what goes into visual arts, and their willingness to take advantage of artists and studios in the most disrespectful way makes it completely apparent that they have no clue that artists, especially those as technically skilled as VFX artists, don't just zap pictures and moving visuals from their mind into reality.
This same thing happens on a programming side too. The producer, manager, whatever just waves their hand and says "add this, add that, add this" and you want to look at them and go "do you have any clue how long this will take to implement and then how much work the art team is going to have afterword?". Management with 0 experience is the biggest hinderance to a project.
@@BinkoBunko oh absolutely, I can see that happening, no doubt.
Those are the people that think technology is magic.
"Get to work programmer! Beam the programming into existence with your magic brain power or something!" *gestures loosely at the computer*
This repeats a lot of similarities to the video game industry. Happens way too often when devs and/or vfx makers will work unrealistic hours every week (almost non-stop in some cases), and after working themselves to the bone, they get laid-off shortly after it's finished. The stories that came from associations with EA and Activision/Blizzard are revolting. Makes it difficult to convince one to willfully join those industries.
I know how it felt like to work on 'Cats' in 2019 for long nights and at the end of the year most of the artists got retrenched from their jobs including me, it affected the lives of many artists in the vfx industry. The job loss went on until later in 2020 by when more than 500 artists were let go, they blamed covid for it but we knew it all started with Cats. It destroyed the lives of many having no job in the middle of a pandemic where there were no jobs almost anywhere throughout the industry.
Sometimes I regret to have chosen this industry to feed myself but it's too late now as I can't go back to my younger self and convince myself to look for another source of income.
I'm so glad that more awareness is created around this issue.
My life was ruined to the ground when I was still working in the VFX industry - all the years of hard work, extremely expensive equipment, education and so on...
Now I've re-invented myself as a digital marketer - throwing all those years away and starting over. Better late then never.
The job as a visual creative worker can be so beautiful... I whish that nobody loses 10 years of their career like I did.
I wish you the best of luck in your career. You deserve it
The editing in this video is incredible
That's not editing. It's VFX :D
@@TrunkyGurden agreed. sometimes simplicity wins
@@TrunkyGurden Same. Thought the effects were unecessary and distracting.
I'm a VFX artist who graduated in 2013 when this stuff was starting to blow up. I remember so many anecdotes from industry veterans that today just boggle my mind.
People from Double Negative and The Mill (You bet your ass I'll be naming and shaming companies here) told me outright that if I was lucky, I'd get to start out as an unpaid intern or "runner".
That meant I'd "Get to" run coffee orders for the artists while they were working, and if there was any downtime, I'd be allowed to shadow them for a bit and ask questions as long as it didn't disturb them.
I have heard nightmare stories from Ghost FX in Denmark where their artists(my former uni-mates) were forced to work insane hours of overtime, unpaid, with the promise that they'd get to take that time off in post-production. (So like you work 8 hours overtime, you can take a day off). When the first project was finished, they were immediately put into pre-production on another project :) Can't cash in that time if you can't go to post-production :) In the end they got unceremoniously fired when the company decided to downsize. They never saw any of that time they had worked, paid out. Probably illegal sure, but early-20s somethings don't know that.
Don't get me started on Important Looking Pirates (ILP) of Sweden. Their lead 3D artist was a complete asshole who reigned supreme and unhindered. We're talking full on verbal abuse and harassment - in front of others. He'd berate a junior artist, new graduate; for not being good enough. Shouting at them how much better he was and how worthless at 3D they were, to the point that they were crying.
He's still at the company :) To this day :) in a COO or something position IDK :)
Basically it's kinda like mean girls mixed with your average reddit mod merged to become one.
Out of my fellow graduates, very few work with VFX or even 3D today. Games companies are a bit better, but yeah... You get treated like expendable trash. You're expected to move all over the world every 2 years (sometimes even more often) because hey! Toronto just put in a 40% vfx subsidy! we gotta be there! If you have any plans of having a stable life/family/etc. You literally cannot be a VFX artist today.
As for me; I now work at a great studio focusing solely on product visualization. If anyone even did half the stuff I experienced in regular VFX studios, they'd be fired on the spot. If anyone suggested to management that we should have a "Runner" position that just gets coffee for minimum wage (or exploits interns). They'd tell us that sounds unethical AND unproductive as hell and serves no other purpose than to stroke our egos.
- and they'd be right.
9 years in the business and I was one of the lucky ones that made it out intact. Just filled with a loooot of bitter resentment and outright hate :D
Probably illegal? Bruh in any EU country, it takes literally one call to the labor authority to get a company like that shut down. Making people work overtime long term is illegal. Even if you voluntarily agree to it, you can change your mind whenever you want, report them, file a lawsuit, and get a big payout.
@@TheSuperappelflap > it takes literally one call to the labor authority to get a company like that shut down.
You poor naive chump.
@@rabbitcreative im not naive, i live in a country with decent workers rights.
Bro u have to report that and get that company shut down
Lol but I've been told Europe is the gold standard for compensation and benefits
In the freelance art community the successful practice is to negotiate changes into the contract to begin with. "If you want changes after x stage, your cost is y". Sounds like the VFX industry could use some of that too. Maybe a company needs to come in and make a reputation for doing it right?
I think it would've been really important to explain why Houses don't charge studios for sudden changes because that thought was just echoing throughout my head when you brought up how the VFX houses take the hits.
Simple
Because they have no union the first houses to do so will be the first to go out of business because nobody will want them
They do, there are contracts with a certain level of reviews in them. It means little
VFX is indeed rooted in an overtime problem. It was fine for me doing 80-90 hours week when I was in my 20's-30's and single. Even going out at midnight after my shift. Or going to sleep at 6 am catching the first bus in the morning.... but at the beginning of my 40's, with a family, a baby... I had to cut down my hours. I didn't want to leave later than 6 pm, wanted to help my wife. It started to become uncomfortable refusing staying at night or not coming in on week-ends... that's when I knew I was done. Always feeling guilty just doing a 40 hours week. Wasn't for me anymore. And believe me, at 40 hours, you are NOT a team player. The system and the pace are just made in a way that is very hard to have normal weeks. And I was in a very very good, human and generous studio at the end. It's just a reality for everyone, the margins are so thin. Some other studios are really brutal and will bully you if you don't do more than 60 hours.
I don't understand what you mean by "bully you." Are you paid hourly or do you get a salary? If the former then, by law, they have to pay overtime right? Do they threaten to fire you? How does this bullying work?
@@glennwatson3313 iirc UK doesnt pay overtime, Canada and US do. They put pressure such as talking about cutting your work, giving your work to someone else to finish thus removing or diminishing credit. Usually when joining youre greeted and welcomed with a lot of hype and positivity, but as soon as crunch deadlines creep in if you dont step in with overtime the positivity becomes a privilege to a point the artist does not feel welcome anymore. Cant even blame them, the production pipeline becomes a hot potato of resentment, stress and chaos that eventually trickles down and intensifies into the artists, if production is being callous with you then its not unlikely they got shouted at or threatened by the higher ups outside the studio. Just avoid AAA studios if you want life and work balance, or seek them and bounce around to increase salary and experience
@@glennwatson3313 You usually get paid for overtime, not always. Some countries (when I was in the UK for example) didn't, and you were paid the normal salary regardless the number of hours you were doing. They were just asking you to stay. Sometimes what they will do is just to offer you that time back, to take a "vacation" in the future, but it's never given back with a smile and it has to be when it's convenient for the prod schedule, which is basically never. They will not threaten to fire you, but when they ask you how many overtime you can do this week, if you say none, you will be greeted with some kind of insatisfaction and they will let you know they are not pleased. You may get black listed for promotions or put shitty projects.
Because in the UK you cannot work over 40 hours per week.
@@satan5537 ha ha, well, it was def possible back in around 2009 that's for sure.
Excellent video. As a digital artist who worked on Life of Pi, I would counter that it was not a redesign of Richard Parker that was so devastating, but the months-long hiatus in post-production that Fox imposed whilst they and Ang Lee set about trimming his over-four-hour film into something more reasonable. For a studio-for-hire like R&H, to have to keep hundreds of artists in limbo was just too great a cost to bear, and the fact that it happened on another R&H show at roughly the same time, tipped a studio with an already-tight profit margin into bankruptcy.
And R&H takes zero blame for just giving away free work? This all sounds crazy to me. I make apps and face all the same issues, constant changes and rewrites. But they cost. This work is done.. Oh you want it to work differently? That ill be another $10K. If the VFX companies just bend over that is on them.
@@kidShibuya I’m not in the industry but it might be stipulated in the contract that they are on hire until the film is deemed completed by the studio, otherwise there’s be legal consequences, in addition, the reputation of the VFX company would be damaged if they refused to do work or demanded more money, and no other studio might hire them, or they can just find another VFX house who will do it cheaper/ demand less money. Thus there’s a high pressure to do whatever studios want
Also the insanely complictaed tax 'schemes' and companies setup to deal with this between production and VFX. I believe AL was also involved in these companies too, which further complicated things. Devastating what it did to R&H, as they did impressive work and were regarded as such
I heard they played jaws music to stop the visual effects artist who won the Oscar from telling everyone what happened
@@UndeadSlayer5 You can see that moment in this video.
This was the first of your works that I'd seen and it must be said, it was only after going back and diving into a few of your previous uploads (that I might add, are of a very high quality) that I could fully appreciate the jump in quality and how much you stepped up your visual expression with this one. Some might argue video essays on CZcams are a dime a dozen but it's easy to distinguish between the ones that have this down to a science and the ones that are simply meant as algorithm fodder. It's the difference between Netflix movies and large scale studio productions.
This was so good, and important. Unionizing sounds like exactly what that industry needs, no film should be made non-union.
The Ang Lee thing is really upsetting. It's all upsetting. I'm a storyboard artist and I learned that I've been getting pixel-f*cked. But we are mostly good at charging additional days for more work. But with VFX it seems there are often no days to add or their agreements seem to allow the client to decide when they're happy.
A lot of times, the client doesn't know what they want until they see it, or they see what they thought they wanted and change their minds. I'm still very grateful for a living, but when it turns into working long hours for free, there's a problem.
dude, im not kidding on this. I worked on a major film and we had zero storyboards and a little concept art. after we were done with the film, the storyboard artist used the film and made story boards from it. they had a section on the "making of" on the DVD and he showed his boards and actually had the balls to brag about how close the artists followed his boards. I almost fell out of my chair. and the studio let this happen.
@@flipnap2112 fuuuuuuuuck
I was at the Hollywood protest of 2012 after Life of Pi went bankrupt. Today, the best I can do myself is simply not work for companies that have what I consider to be unreasonable demands on my time. Being able to work remotely has also given me a lot more control on how I manage my time. I dont see unionization happening for the vfx industry anytime soon, so the best we can do as individuals is to not stand for abusive practices, and be willing to work for studios that will treat you fairly, even if you dont get to work on glamourous shows like Game of Thrones or big blockbuster Marvel movies, thats just my two cents.
Good work is good work, who cares if it's not game of thrones or marvel. That's the way I'll probably go.
I was wondering about the likelihood of unionization being the way out. not that I'm against unions, but from my layman's perspective, it's not so much the VFX house's treatment of their workers (although that is still an issue), it's the studios treatment/expectation of the houses. Unionization doesn't put the pressure on the right people. It certainly will protect workers and that should be pursued and championed, but it does little or nothing to correct the broken system that has created the problem in the first place.
This is just insane. I had no idea. Effects are so important in movies.
I wanted to get into VFX ~5 years ago until I listened to this one podcast episode with some people in the industry urging against it due to the brutal working hours. That one podcast episode was so impactful to me, I've always been thankful for that.
On day of the dead here in Mexico schools often make altars dedicated to historical figures. At my college there was an altar competition on 2013 and since my team was made up of students of animation we decided to dedicate our altar to Rhythm and Hues closing, so we made this really well designed drawing of all of the animals of Life of Pi, made with cempasuchil flower petals, beans, rice, and other natural materials, and I was really proud of it... I'm still salty that we didn't win. A team of mechatronics won because they included moving elements and I was so pissed because they didn't have any special theme, it was just miscelaneous day of the dead imagery. It has nothing to do with the rest of the video but I wanted to get it out.
that's such an awesome tribute 🥰
💯
as a former employee at r&h I really appreciate that 🫡
Robots will always win
That sounds amazing, great work! I also couldn't stand it when the robotics club would steal the thunder from art student's in school. :,)
You won in our hearts my dude. You won in the artist's eyes.
The corridor digital channel really gave me a different point of view on VFX. You quickly realise that although many CGI shots are bad these days, it's rarely the VFX teams' fault, but simply a matter of direction, vision, pre-production, or simply time and money. It's really sad that many of these artists won't be able to shine, and will have their work criticised despite the fact that they've done everything they could given the situation...
I remember when Joe Kozinski (Tron 2, Top gun) was starting out, he said to me, "I want to make a coffee table book of all the producers and VFX artists who worked on my projects, and it would be a before and after. So each page has their portrait before the start of the job, and on the other page it's their portrait after they finished". He laughed and said it would be hilarious to see how run down and destroyed people get.
Love the emphasis on labor. I really appreciate this angle
This makes me feel absolutely horrible for every time I have ever said anything negative about a CGI or VFX shot.
You're a good man. Thank you
You can still criticize, but now you know who's really to blame for it.
@@sillyskeleton hahaha
@@sillyskeleton exactly
Yeah don’t worry, whatever criticism you had is echoed by the ppl who made it. Artists are far more critical about their work than you could ever be, and they also r upset they didn’t have the time and the healthiest schedule to make sure they could live well AND create a good product
Other issue is, people are petrified of being blacklisted from every studio for speaking out in any way shape or form because of NDAs.
Not so much...most artist aren't going to violate an NDA and you have to be a MASSIVE asshole to get Black listed...There's a VERY famous Music Video director (that's how long ago I was in the industry) who survived on Cocaine and Yeager that my company worked with and when he FINALLY got Black listed from ILM, my bosses were super excited to work with his crazy ass...we proceeded to work on a HORRIBLE music video that I don't want to name because it looks awful, but I bet you've seen it!
Thank you for this video and shedding some light on the struggles and long work hours a creative must go through just to put food on the table.
First time coming across your channel. Absolutely blown away by the production quality and the attention to detail. Instantly subbed!
It’s sad. I thank every VFX team who works hard on bringing the visuals to life on screen. You guys and gals deserve a high pay rate. I know that stuff takes time.
I'm not in the VFX industry but I'm an artist and being one, I do appreciate the work that VFX artists do in the movies and understand the long hours and the pressure. I had no idea this has been happening in the industry. Very eye opening video. I do hope that it gets resolved soon. In my opinion I think unionizing will be the way to go forward. I honestly thought that VFX artist were already unionized. Thanks!
Holy moly that's a worthless comment, do you have anything useful to add to the commentary? Remember, "COMMENT section" not "virtue signaling section"
@@Nate-bd8fg Woke up in the wrong side of bed today Nate? So sorry you all mighty Nate for not being useful to the cause. "Virtue signaling?" yikes...
This is really sad. No just dreadful! Thank you for raising our awareness of these issues!
This is the reason I love everything everywhere all at once: the sfx team was 5 people, 2 of which were the directors. They embraced all elements of that movie
When I got into developing indie games I realized how much of a bullet I dodged by not joining a big company. I hope that eventually some of these studios find a way to just sell their own work for their own sake.
Cool what game are you currently developing?
definitely. i don't think i ever really considered trying to work at one of those big companies. part of me wants to keep my projects/teams small to keep as much freedom as possible, but part of me really wants to try to grow my (future) studio and prove it's possible to have a successful game development company without stealing the life force from your devs
For a good example of good VFX integration I definitely recommend ‘Everything Everywhere All At Once’. There’s a WIRED video featuring the directors and their effects lead, and it’s great to see how involved the directors were.
Thanks for the tip. I absolutely loved that movie and really enjoyed the WIRED video and the fact that the mindset was clearly nothing to do with what is shown here.
I was about to bring that movie up since the VFX team was 9 people including the 2 directors. None of which had specialized training.
They also did much of the VFX work over zoom which is actually shown in the movie itself.
@@ericb.4313 Yeah it’s really impressive!
Yea not a bad movie. Bad name tho
This is such an important topic! Thank you for making this video and also this is my first video on this channel - love the editing and style of the video!
Beautiful video - Very clearly laid out, lots of nuance and complexity, and very well produced. Thank you for sharing this information! Wish I could thumbs it up twice.
As a 30 year Vet to VFX and doing both Practical and Digital, a lot of these issues are on the shoulders of the people who put up with it and think its the norm. I work for a company that isn't toxic and recommend to anyone who works for me to not practice these types of behaviors. I send people home after 8 hours. I manage my team in a way that doesn't treat them like shit. I choose not to work at companies that are toxic. IT WAS HARD, I raised a family, but I didn't get to work on the biggest projects but I stayed employed and happy as a result. I'm sorry but these sorts of behaviors are not an exclusive club to VFX workers. I've seen the same in other creative jobs, and technology jobs at many levels. The way "management" treats its workers across the board is broken. VFX is not alone in this fight. Teachers get the shaft having to pay for their own class supplies, get treated by society like dirt, poorly paid. First responders like ambulance drivers and paramedics who do life saving work, are paid hardly nothing, expected do do so much and and vital to society. Its al a ball of shit until we ALL stand up and fight for what is right.
Good for you and your company for treating its VFX workers right.
The reason why we have this CGI Crisis is because CGI artists aren't unionized. All the other major filmmaking professions like directors, writers, actors, makeup artists, key grips, etc. unionized during the huge unionization wave of the 1940s to 1960s while CGI artistry was a new field that came about in the 1990s and the first CGI artists were libertarian dipshits who thought they didn't need a union along with outsourcing CGI work to dozens of VFX houses in Asia for dirt xheap prices and a few decades later, here we are. The reason why we get bad CGI is never the CGI artists' fault but the major production company (Disney, HBO, Universal, etc.) who don't give their animators and CGI artists enough time and resources to do the CGI while overworking them to the bone. A leftist political streamer CZcamsr that I really like named Vaush explains this better than I can in this comment because his dad works as a CGI artist, so he's acutely aware of how screwed over the CGI artists are. Search up "vaush pit she hulk" and you'll find his 26 minute video that breaks it down in an entertaining and informative way.
Hey Dan! I always tried to treat the guys I work with with respect and empathy. However, tax breaks made it so I stopped getting budgets where I could hire people I could treat well. Actually, I couldn't even afford to hire people if I wanted to treat them like shit! 🙂So I started mistreating myself shouldering the bulk of the work unril I realized I could be a bagger at Trader Joe's for the same hourly rate. And while you pivot your business plan to fix what you can, the video's point is still taken: And this ain't the business I got into 40 years ago, and never will be again. That ended as soon as VFX artists allowed themselves to be called "vendors". Hot dogs, anyone?
HELL YEAH. Also i will shout this from the rooftops forever: WE ALL NEED UNIONS.
We need a PEOPLES UNION
@@edibleapeman2 Did you try thinking about what you were typing for just one second before hitting "REPLY?" Think about it, what do you think is going to happen with that much centralized power?
The VFX industry needs to be respected much much more. On a different note, how can you not love Keanu Reeves. Even giving VFX artists hefty bonuses? What a guy.
For sure. It's even more amazing that he did it before visual effects artists were being abused and were still having a reasonable workload of around 100 visual effects shots compared to the thousands of shots needed today. Keanu knew who the successful factors of the film were.
Agreed , love the guy even more after hearing this.
No offense, but this isn't about Reeves as likeable as he may be
As much as this vid here makes a great job at explaining the situation I got the feeling that it will only reach the ears and eyes of people who are already aware of the situation.
Wondering if making a big budget hollywood movie with some actual stars who are actually sympathetic to the VFX industry (such as Keanu, for example, or even directors who were at the forefront of it, like Lucas, or maybe Spielberg, Peter Jackson or Guillermo del Toro) specifically geared on this topic to diss at the entire Hollywood system might actually bring some more public recognition, thus legitimacy for an actual improvement of the industry ?
Unfortunately the statement from Jeff Okun about Keanu giving money to vfx artists is completely untrue. Keanu's a good guy, and he did a few gifts to Matrix on set production crew but did not pay out anything to vfx artists or houses in post production. Jeff started this rumor and it's been bouncing around the internet ever since.
Thanks for putting this together. Really eye opening stuff as I've often considered pursuing education and work in the vfx arena.
My aunt was one of those vfx artist. She was a medical doctor but left it all for a chance to work in Hollywood as vfx artist. She worked on such movies like TMNT, pirates of Caribbean, etc. On paper she worked under one very well known studio but in reality she was "lend-off" to other studios as subcontractors most of the time. The working conditions may look great on the surface. they have cool office filled with creative people but in practice it was hell. Crazy crunch time to fulfil crazy deadlines and the limitless revisions and all that shit but she's one of the lucky ones who manage to safe enough money and retire early in her late 40's. If I asked her she didn't miss any of it and even sometimes regretted how she sacrifice her career as a doctor
It's a similar problem to the video game industry. In my experience, non-creative people seriously underestimate how much work it really is and adopt the attitude that "it's just messing with computers, how hard can that be?".
As someone who opened up SFM once, I can confirm that animation is the most impressive and difficult thing ever.
In animation too! Both for movies and video games..
I think one of the reasons that visual effects artists Get short changed like this is partially due to the nature of visual effects work itself. The fact that it can be changed endlessly after everything else is set in stone, and that none of it is “real” for the director in the same tactile way as being on set.
More harm can be done through apathy than malice.
The problem with that is, it literally can't be just changed on a whim and that is what those Hollywood idiots don't understand. Changing the basic designs from some visual effects requires them to be redone from the ground up. It is not like having a house and wanting to add an additional window (And even that is sometimes pretty tricky when you have to consider structural integrity)
Honestly this whole topic makes me so hateful towards the whole big movie industry (of which I am a participant too by still watching it) I have several friends from the US that are working in the industry and all have the same stories. Doesn't matter which part of the spectrum. Make money of people as much as you possibly can.
But I guess as long as this big industry is in the US nothing will ever change when there are big bucks to be made.
Well, they have to stand up and charge more for every change. And if they will be fired, then I am sorry, but the world doesn't deserve a good CGI then. I did this with my S/W business. And I closed it. Yes, it was hard, but I moved on and never looked back. Did the world lose some of my creativity? I guess. But it doesn't look like it cares that much. So overall it was a win-win. Let the world suffer too, maybe they will start to understand who is important also.
Anything in a movie can be changed. You just have to get all the moving parts back together. You got writers, directors, actors, costume and prop designers, make up artists, video and audio equipment, sets, catering, and probably many more parts that i can't think of. The difference is that all those parts are visible to the producers for practical shots*. If you don't work closely with the visual artists and just "put in an order" and "get a result" you can't appreciate the work they have to do to make the same change.
Lindsay Ellis has said that seeing the technical details in the behind-the-scenes content of Lord of the Rings was what inspired her to go into film making. "Most people think that the studio just calls up the movie stork, and they press the movie button, and then a movie gets made." It seems like even industry professionals have an equally naive view of how visual effects are made.
* edit: Apparently another difference is that they actually have to pay for them! They've somehow avoided that when it comes to vfx.
The fact they do not receive residuals is crazy. The abuse is unacceptable. Nice video. Keep up the good work.
Thank you so much for throwing the spotlight on this horrendous, overlooked issue!!!
I wanted to work in the VFX industry before I found out what it's like to work inside a VFX industry. It's not on the level of some of the anime studios but it's getting there. The amount of skill that goes into crafting this stuff is unbelievable. If you look into any VFX pipeline, you'll probably be surprised on just how many niche skills are packed into on small part of any given processes. That doesn't even bring up the fact that VFX are done at extremely high resolutions which will spike the render times astronomically. I get 2nd hand anxiety just thinking about it. If you only have so many computers to work with and then a deadline gets cut, you'll be relying on render farms that hopefully don't already have a queue.
That Taika clip made me see him in a new light. He was blaming the Vfx artists in a film that ended up being abysmal.
Yeah I used to have a lot of respect for his films as well, as silly as they were. Maybe he's just ignorant, but that doesn't make him less of an asshole here.
I didn't hear blame in that clip. Maybe I'm missing something from the whole video it was taken from but...
@@chrisjfox8715 I agree with this. I don't think he means to be saying "Those VFX guys really suck", but that *is* the implication nevertheless. I get the feeling he is more happy-go-lucky and thoughtless instead of passive-aggressive and shitty.
As evidence, in the full interview (which I'm only just now watching), they spend a significant amount of time talking about Taika's decision to use a clip of Tessa being startled in a moment where there is nothing that would have caused her to startle and they're just having a laugh that he never noticed.
@@No0utlet that just adds to my read of the clip that he's being more self-critical/self-deprecating than anything else. He asked a question then winced when Tessa was blunt about it not looking real. I sensed that regardless of whose "fault" it is, he was aware enough that it's still nonetheless his name attached to it.
What's people's issue, that he questioned it?? It's reasonable for a director to be honest about their missteps after the whirlwind of a project is over. If you ask me that's a bit refreshing over directors bloviating about how great their movie is just because it's their baby that they've been tasked to market. Being genuinely critical of these things is a road towards improving them, one's own involvement included.
5:39 "this sign was added in post" is such a good phrase
This is fascinating and I had no idea!!! Thank you for doing such a great job communicating this.