Marvel Overuses CGI (And Exploits VFX Artists)
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- čas přidán 8. 06. 2024
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Marvel having films and its Disney Plus shows riddled with CGI and VFX has become much more prevalent, and it makes sense, especially as some shows have CG main characters... but what does this mean for the artists working on these shows and movies? Are they getting exploited by this giant company?? It's time to uncover the truth on why Marvel STILL Overuses CGI.
This video has statements that are speculative; assumptions are reached based off information found online and statements provided by visual effects artists themselves.
Sources:
VULTURE - www.vulture.com/article/a-vfx...
GIZMODO - gizmodo.com/disney-marvel-mov...
THEDIRECT - thedirect.com/article/black-p...
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Great video man!
& Actually, there is only one more movie in Phase 4..!
The nigahiga of youtube
"phase 4 feels like it should be over but I think we're only halfway through."
Phase 4: *has half a show and 1 movie left*
The sad part is people will always defend Marvel. Art shouldn’t be rushed.
Indeed, I agree full-heartedly.
If Morbius had an MCU logo people would have defended its mediocrity the same they did for Black widow and Thor 4: Rise of the Thorwalkers
@@creed8712 Mordiocrity, you mean
@@creed8712 I'd watch Morbius over half of phase 4 shit no cap
@@creed8712 It's Thorbin time!
I got chills when he said that.Thor 4 shouldn't have made 400m,for its vfx alone!
Can’t believe 2000’s and early 2010’s CGI looks 20 years better than today’s MCU CGI
Indeed.
Because back then, there were maybe 10 to 15 movies per year that required big CGI, whereas now, there are 40+, plus TV shows like Star Wars, GOT, and MCU D+, which easily totals 100+ big projects happening per year.
Add on top of that that working in VFX was a highly specialized skill back then that not many people could do, and that now, because of the prices spiraling down due to each company trying to outbid each other just to get the job, many highly skilled companies have gone under (one must only have heard of the horror story of Rythm'n'Hues, legendary VFX studio who famously got an Oscar for Life of Pi in 2012... as it was filing for bankruptcy (and got booed onstage at the Oscar for "daring" mentioning the struggles of the VFX industry as a whole).
Leaving lot of middle sized studios having to share big chunks of the job, and often msicommunicating with each other when they have to share some specific shots, and you get a perfect storm of "shit just hit the fan" like whatever we're getting for these past 10 years.
That’s because we got like, 2 movies like that per year.
The Pirates Trilogy's VFX are still absolutely amazing and I don't think I've seen any movie that's pulled off a fully CGI character better than Davy Jones besides the Matt Reeves Planet of the Apes movies and Avatar
I feel like that’s not the point. Frankly I’d put up with the worst, most godawful CGI if the VFX artists were at least being treated well.
The actual humans are more important than the product
Some intelligent commenter on CZcams explained this perfectly: considering around 70%-80% of these marvel movies are cgi'd, they should be given an animation time schedules on when to finish these movies. NOT live action time schedules
W
With the amount of VFX in them, any Marvel, Disney, Star Wars, and any other big VFX movies are essentially animation films with live actors dropped in it, nowadays. They're more akin to Roger Rabbit instead of actual live action movies.
But if they call it animated movies they'd have to recognise most of the work done in 3rd world countries as animation. And that just doesn't bring in the shareholders to the table. Lion King will never be called an animated movie cause Pixar needs to look good.
Or just don't fully cgi a perfectly usable live action scene
@@spider-man500 yes, or don't do major change of last minute. I get that short schedule and underpaid is universal problem but I feel like this changing third act on a whim is almost exclusively Marvel problem
Martin Scorsese's "MCU is not cinema" is becoming more relevant and noticeable now with the MCU's current state with its installments.
@@spider-man500 seems more like a car crash to me, mate
Actually he was talking about sameness of superhero movies. He was pointing out how they all feel like the same movie even if they’re wildly different
he was always right, besides, he didn't say he didn't like them, just that they all felt the same and weren't anything special, which is true and fair
@@dankerbell so Thor and Shang-Chi are the same exact film? Right down to plot and choreography? Give me a break
@@notproductiveproductions3504 they're not the same but they feel the same, every single time
It still amazes me that The Batman had a third the budget of the average MCU movie and looked way better than the majority of MCU projects. Just goes to show how important it is to actually plan things out
The Batman had a $200 million budget, which is the same as most MCU films, but I agree the CGI was far better.
even my girlfriend being imaginary is more realistic than these recent mcu cgi
@@mattscapes the Batman used mostly practical effects
@@mattscapes initial budget was 130 million, but delays due to pandemic affect shooting schedule many times, the budget increased, because they have constantly recreate those sets after every delay.
Probably because they used virtual sets like the Mandalorian
Heres what Marvel needs to do:
Stop using CGI for EVERYTHING. It should only be used when it's necessary. For example, CGI helmets should only be a thing when an actor is doing something that requires a lot of movement.
Push the release dates back. Be looser. Stop rolling this stuff out like its made on a conveyor belt in a factory. Also give the VFX teams and everyone else a break every now and then
Stop giving the VFX teams stupid deadlines. Give them all the time they need to perfect
Stop being nitpicking about ever single pixel. Most people don't care about the smallest pixels
Give them all the money they need. When you have Disney backing you money should NEVER be an issue
Treat the VFX people like human beings
*Edit:* Give the VFX people bigger paycheques. They do so much and they get crap money. More pay means more respect and willing to do the work. Pay even more for those that have to work overtime
Except Disney is a soulless greedy corrupt corporation. The fuck do you expect ?
If Marvel is so tight on their deadlines, then they should finilaze everything they want to do in pre-production and start production a few years earlier... Marvel shows are usually filmed a year or less before their release and that gives VFX artists very little time to do their best
@@disguyz709 And that needs to change.
Nah, I bet the problem is with how much money they expect.
I'm no expert but I'm pretty sure they would have a big system that estimates how much money their products will make exept they don't seem to understand that without quality VFX work the product suffers and that can and will lower the amount that's been anticipated
They won’t stop. The mouse wants that money and will milk whatever they can for however long they can.
God I absolutely despise Disney, I knew that they overworked VFX workers to hell and back, but I had no idea it was THIS bad. I appreciate you speaking up about this. Just remember this applies to ALL of Disney's projects not just Marvel, considering how bad Pinocchio looks.
I think it's Bob Chapek is really is the root cause of all the issues here right now.
@@stevem.9340 Disney has ALWAYS been a horrible company. From its founding to now. The only difference nowadays is that people are starting to notice.
Absolutely this. Mad respect to the artists, but the corporation really is the worst.
lots of outsourcing and Disney seemed to not invest much into ILM for the MCU projects. Star Wars at least stayed consistently in house
I still think Warner Bros is worse. But yeah, Disney is at least close second.
This is why these shows need to be pushed back for more time if it doesn't meet it's date so be it quantity over quality.
Nah@@spider-man500 most of the shows aren't pointless cause it gives them characters that wouldn't fit on the big screen on the small screen treatment. Basically, side events that take place in the same world.
Bruh working as a VFX artist for Marvel sounds kind of like what japanese animators working on TV anime have been going through since the 1960s
@@spider-man500 Facts, for example a Agatha show. 💀 We don’t need that
Or just stop making shows. Just stick to movies
Disney would rather release the unfinished product than leave the profitable market season
VFX artists need to unionize soon
Absolutely
If they do that, they'll price themselves out in the long run and never get hired.
@@stank7200literally half of Hollywood is unionized down to the boom mic operator, it’s not impossible
@@stank7200spoken by someone who doesn’t know how unions actually work.
@@mari98_ VFX is one of the few departments in film production that can be outsourced to a third world country who will do it for pennies rather than have studios cooperate with a VFX union. you cannot outsource on-set catering which is why you'll find craft services listed above VFX in any movie credit sequence.
One of my friends actually worked on this floating head VFX.
He said “Taika loves awkward and corny stuff and literally wanted the effect to look bad, But when the corniness was so poorly received, the studio made adjustments”
When he worked on the head he had a version of a Green Man of Norse mythology (Based on The Maelstrom ride at Disney World before it was closed.)
He though it would make the final cut, but they used an older version, and Taika preferred for it to be cheesy.
Taika always wanted it to be a head, so they didn’t have a choice when it came to that.
He always thought it was lame from the moment he heard about the idea, but that’s what he wanted.
Damn he'really making sure to ruin his own movie huh
That _does_ sound like Taika to me
If the rest of the movie had stronger CGI then it would probably be more obvious that the cheap floating head VFX was intentional
That’s what happens when people glorify an immature, low IQ imbecile and allow him to call the shots.
This reminds me of that Homelander meme where he's watching something with the most square face in the world with the caption " The Marvel Vfx artist who missed his daughter's birthday to animate She-Hulk's twerking. "
If that really happened,People should seriously stop seeing Marvel in theaters.And the D+ shows.This is serious man!
To be fair, she's done way worse in the comics. (Jump roping naked)
@@Bullboy_Adventuresatleast shes likeable in the comics
Looking at Taika's reaction to his VFX, I think even directors don't appreciate VFX artists at all. You know, the people who make 90% of your film, Taika.
Then again they didn’t listen to him and chose studio interference
One of the problems with these MCU films, is that the director has no involvement or communication with the CGI team which leads to the crew being unclear on how they'd like the scene to look or feel, you could tell because in a lot of CG heavy scenes the look the cinematographer was going for is gone. A lot of the time it's just Marvel giving these VFX artists orders without input from the creative team.
but the thing is most of these directors are also inexperienced with how VFX/CGI works, as previously they'd directed low budget flims that DIDN'T require heavy effects work (something that was discussed in the Vulture article) It's probably why Takia openly made fun of Korg's cgi, because he had no involvement in that part of the film.
Ah yes Takia Waaitit
I’ve read that article too. Sucks that they don’t communicate a lot because that’s one of the reasons why the CGI looks so weird.
Like the final fight in Black Panther
The biggest problem is that superhero movies are essentially 70% CGI nowadays, give or take, which means they're pretty much 70% animated movies. And yet, they still have a live action movie's deadline standards. I don't like the Lightyear movie much overall, BUT that movie looks visually gorgeous. A lot of love AND time was put into the visuals of the movie. And I have no doubt that Pixar has realistic deadlines for their movies befitting that of animated projects.
I wonder how long it took to make the movie (minus script writing time)
@@muffinfighter3680 believe it was 5 years and two of them were spent in pre-production
I never thought of it that way. We're basically watching animated movies with a sprinkling of live action. Even the scenes with real actors, 70% of the frame is computer animation.
I miss when they used practical affects. The Iron man suits looked absolutely amazing up to Avengers, then it became CGI and looks so bland. So boring.
Iron Man was ALWAYS cgi from the lower body , those practical suits you see were only reference models
It was always cgi. Everything you think was an awesome practical effect was properly utilized cgi
yeah because the original suit has a combo of CGI and practical effects
Spawn, released in 1997 looks better than Thor Love and Thunder. These $250 million budgets are not showing on screen.
@@One.Zero.One101 I wouldn’t be surprised if some of that budget is uh, deliberately inflated so as to act as a larger tax write off. The question is how much. Probably a good deal…
I really hope that we get to see something along the lines of the writers strike that happened a while back in like 2008 or something but for VFX artist so that they can hopefully get unionized and get better pay and better hours in order to stop them from being overworked like this.
Yep yes indeed. I hope this alongside the whole new deal for animation movement concerning HBO Max and how they’ve been treating their animators and their properties becomes one big thing in the 2020s that can’t be ignored and won’t go away.
Yeah this is why I left the animation industry. It's a labour of love and I lost my love pretty quickly because of the lack of pay and overtime work that really ruins your personal life. I've moved to marketing and never regretted it. These artists deserve way more.
@@jlinus7251 Hi im someone who was thinking of going into game stuff (pretty much the same situation) would you recommend just not going into it and going into something like marketing? And maybe just doing 3d stuff on the side?
@@jlinus7251 Damn I know how you feel… well kinda of. I don’t animate, but I’m really amazing at drawing though
Sadly they aren’t unionized
Part of the problem are their stans as well. As long they still support them no matter what, nothing will change for the VFX workers.
Ong there's stans in the comments section doing exactly this
@@Browntable They are absolutely infuriating. They keep praising the shows like its gods gift to humanity. They need to take those rose tinted glasses off.
@@monecue9891 what exactly are they saying to defend Marvel? Are they calling the VFX artists liars or something?
@@monecue9891 they can like a show and not like how the people working on the show were treated, unless we're all going to turn against Rockstar Games now. 🙂
@@spider-man500 Martin Luther king was a “social justice warrior.” So using sjw as an insult is a major red flag. If you want to complain that these companies virtue signal to make money, I’d agree with you. But that’s not “sjw and feminist bullshit” that’s called capitalism.
It always frustrates me when I see people like Jon Watts and Taika do the bare minimum of practical effects and throw everything at VFX workers that are constantly being crunched, I was happy when I saw the way Sam Raimi approached Multiverse of Madness by trying to pull off as much practical effects as possible during a pandemic and being involved with the VFX aspects of the film and that’s why MoM was one of the best looking Marvel films in a long time. This shows how this issue comes from not only the studio but the laziness of directors and producers for films and shows.
My high school film teacher hated “we’ll fix it in post” and I’ll always respect her for that
I have a feeling that VFX artists are going to go on strike right when the two Avengers movies are in production setting a massive delay.
Holy shit, that’d be incredible honestly haha
I hope that actually happens man
Good
Do it! Disney has been going overboard. First shooting Mulan near Chinese concentration camps, now this. Go on strike and make them loose millions.
Seeing VFX artists come out with their gripes really made it all the more easier for me to leave behind the MCU. It's just not fun to watch it anymore considering what is going on behind the scenes for a movie or film that ranges from meh to downright atrocious. And it's sad to see people defend it just because it's the MCU.
Hey some people just don’t care. Someone told me that as long as he gets to sit down and have some mindless fun at the movies, he’s alright. Which I get but it’s also contributing to the problem. It sucks because if it’s okay with people like him, it’s okay with Marvel Disney.
A bigger problem is that they do reshoots as close to as a couple months before it comes out
Absolutely
They’re still doing it with Wakanda Forever as we speak lol
They’re doing the same with Wakanda Forever I think.
I think they're still doing it with Wakanda Forever
The same problem still happening with Black Panther Wakanda Forever
The Taika impression and that whole skit was funny af! But yeah, Marvel needs to focus on quality over quantity.
It gives off Free Guy Taika vibe and I’m now convinced that’s how he probably behaved throughout filming lol
I hate taika mocking the cgi. Rude
What's messed up about all of this is after all of the allegations thrown at Marvel was getting trending on Twitter. The next day Marvel announced Phase 5 and 6 at Comic Con. Invalidating these claims because fans are pumped about the new Avengers movies.
Yup
At this point, the only hope I have for marvel are the animated shows that are being produced, but even then I’m not getting my hopes up too high.
I would honestly rather have 2 MCU projects a year with phenomenal CGI I know they’re capable of then giving us 5 movies and 3 shows a year with really subpar visuals and stressed artists
W
Idk why they’re pushing for the multiverse saga to be done within six years or so. The infinity saga took over a decade to complete and it had much less content. I’ll be fine with this saga taking even more time to wrap up guys, if it means giving more time for the filmmakers to bring out the best for us as the audience
W
bUt HoW wOuLd We GeT mOrE cOnTeNt¿
I don't think that'll happen, mostly due to the actors growing visibly old and their need to make it multiple movies into one consistent storyline
One of the things The Batman excelled at, was that it didn't use CGI for the most part and all was practically shot, and it made for a great movie, cinematically and story-wise.
the lighting in batman was pretty crap
@@paveantelic7876 Wtf!?...
@@paveantelic7876there wasnt much light at all bc its constantly dark in gotham 💀
I await the day that all these VFX artists go on strike and we end up having everything delayed.
To be honest, I believe marvel has peaked since endgame. They are just rushing everything to have another “endgame” and it seems like they don’t care nor put much effort into the individual superhero movies as much.
That's what I have been saying but these fans dont want to admit it
Yes
They're quite literally committing the same mistake that DC did. Its depressing
And even with Endgame, they still were showing signs of forgetting some of their characters. I know Thor 4 makes it blatent, but it really did start with Endgame.
They didn't start treating his trauma with insensitivity until that movie. "Oh look at Thor, he's sad and fat. Lol"
No, it's sad, fat, and depressed because everyone he knew and loved is no longer in his life anymore, and he made the one choice that cost the universe EVERYTHING.. because he wanted revenge.
Thor's character is not only a tragedy because of what he went through, but it's also a tragedy because of the insensitivity that he is handled with.
@@RavenTheVelociraptor that’s why you don’t make one person in charge of the continuity, marvel has one continuity person, not a team. This needs to be fixed
In the first video, I kinda thought you were nitpicking, but now that I've watched movies like Blade Runner (1982) and saw how phenomenally that movie aged, and with the recent Top Gun Maverick, I'm now a huge fan of practical effects. Phase 4 has so much bad CGI that it makes Iron Man 1 look like Avatar (which also has better CGI than most of Phase 4)
Except most of top gun is CGI. it's not about
Practical effects, it's like he said in the video it's about the time they have and not being overworked, if marvel did that they could definitely look better than top gun but they don't they just do the bare minimum to get the movie out
@@argo9721 it's been reported multiple times that Tom Cruise fought for it being practical. I've also seen a lot of BTS showing that it was practical and not CG. There are of course scenes that were impossible to do practically, but the movie still looks better than most of Phase 4
I know this leads to the opinion where the practical effect is better than the CGI. To me it doesn't matter which one is better. Blade Runner 2049 in my opinion is the perfect example of the perfection of the visual effects.
@@ismaill-0819 yes, the CGI in Blade Runner 2049 is among the best. I don't hate CGI, because some things are just impossible to do without CGI, but I always appreciate when they use practical effects over CGI. (also I don't throw shade on VFX artists)
@@ismaill-0819 That movie is so underrated and overhated
This is even more depressing when you take into account the multitude of projects that have been green lit for the next few years.
Releasing two avengers movies in one year is fucking crazy
@@booktales1687 I have a feeling they’re gonna delay it but that’s the optimistic side of me. I doubt Marvel will want to leave that cash cow for another year.
The problem is cgi is seen as the easy way out, when it should just be used to enhance shots. Real sets are usually cheaper and look better especially when enhanced with vfx for any final touches. But like you said nobody can seem to commit to an idea so they'd prefer it all on a green screen and just figure it out once the actors are shot.
To this day I keep hearing about how the Star Wars Prequels were CG fests, but... even though some of the CGI looks dated, there were far more practical effects being used there, and the CGI, despite some of that dating, sometimes looks BETTER somehow than Marvel's CGI. And I think that goes into what was explored here: Lucas knew what he wanted, he knew the look he was going for before they even shot a second of film. Same with Avatar. James Cameron knew what he was going for before he shot. It's not surprising that Marvel has not got that.
The Star Wars Prequels aren't the poor CGI fests we made them out to be - Marvel is.
The annoying thing is that a lot of people keep defending Marvel and their lack of practical effects and overuse of CGI.
Yes indeed, I agree…
A lot of people called out the weird rubber Superman CGI face in the original theater cut of Justice League but tbh, I didn’t notice it until skimming through the film on my second watch.
That’s not the case with recent Marvel movies & shows, I notice it instantly
Unfortunately, quite a lot of people have a bias towards the MCU where they’ll defend bad quality due to their established reputation
You didn't notice Superman's cgi face until the second watch that's so wierd
@@mickeymouse7726 not really no
those artist are the true heroes. they are the ones that makes a movie look like magic.
it's so sad... whenever i make a painting, and at the end, i make a mistake, i feel like i can't fix, it's like... you just feel your soul leave your body and you cry and you stop working. you are so heartbroken, by your own mistake xD and it will take weeks before i am ready to start again.
i can't imagine being in vfx work, and have been working tirelessly on some small detail to look real, and then you're told " actually... forget about it. start new on this instead" ... i would pull my hair out. i'd be so angry and feel so much anxiety in my life.
i don't understand how these employers do it 😭💜
Same😮
Not just marvel, but a lot of manga companies do this with their authors and animators. If they ain’t dropping much it gets canceled or rush. Honestly i rather wait for 2 or 3 years for my shows or movies to be done. The more you overworked the artist, the more bad quality you get. Art isn’t easy thing to do, it take’s rhythm, time, and thought. If a artist doesn’t experience life, then they don’t create something meaningful. That goes for any artist out there. I don’t think marvel ain’t going stopped doing this bc they know fans care about end of credits scenes for movies and shows.
Omg tell me about it, Japan's work culture is nuts. You always hear about Manga artists and writers getting sick and needing breaks.
@@Browntable prime example of this is Kishimoto the author of Naruto. He had to rush naruto shippuden bc shouen want him to drop weekly. This is what I mean that art takes rhythm,time, and thought. I can relate to this bc I do graphic design stuff for my clothing brand.
So that's why One Piece in recent years feel so, rushed....
@@ariesfaturrahman7982 Sorry for late reply. But OP feels rushed isn't because Shueisha forcing Oda. Oda is one of the few Jump mangka that has privilege not getting meddled by editor. His editor in interview said he can't intervene with OP story and his job just get the script hahahahaha.
OP was rushed these days was because Oda really want it ended ASAP. He isn't young anymore remember?
the floating head cgi from thor is literally inexcusable. I thought it was fake the first time I saw it in a meme
I am going to a game design college to learn VFX, writing, music, basically all the stuff used in all digital media. And oh boy after watching this I'm starting to think it was a mistake
I have a bachelor’s in CG and VFX, trust me you’ll be fine - just surround yourself with good people and make good connections and pay extra attention to what companies you’re looking to freelance for once you graduate.
@@Browntable Thank you for the advice Browntable. I don't usually watch your videos but this is the stuff I can appreciate from a CZcamsr.
Art is never fun if you make it your job
You could always do work outside of animation/movies until the situation gets better. Your skills in VFX could be used in architecture, graphic design, marketing, and so much more. And then do cool fun projects on the side. Then once VFX artists unionize, you can start looking for work based in entertainment. Also, follow browntable’s advice and just make good connections and choose your projects wisely.
the fact you did the floating head better is astonishing
"i'm starting to think my people don't understand what i pay them for."
"you don't pay us."
"allow them to *live* for."
I recently rewatched The Batman and the BTS bonus features for the film. It's very impressive how well the VFX is and how it is integrated into the film.
Ikr. With that new vfx wall thing is amazing
@@Koluvuma All thanks to Star Wars
Post-2020 Marvel CGI animation makes Initial D First Stage CGI looks like a masterpiece.
And the tokyo pop dub has a better script than the post 2020 marvel movies
@@realaebros Facts bro 😂😂😂
I would say around 2018, like some infinity war, black panther and especially ant man and the wasp
you mean post 2012?
Every time I am mentioning my degree to someone everyone always asks “you gonna work at Disney/Pixar/Marvel” (legit the same thing at this point) like god no I won’t allow my creativity snuffed and work exploited
I’m not even kidding, I couldn’t even enjoy most of No Way Home on my second watch because of how horrible the CGI was. I should’ve just been enraptured in the fact that my 3 spiderman were on screen together, but Tobey (especially the shot you used in the thumbnail and the shot of Andrew jumping though the portal) never looked real for a second. People say it’s something you should just look over and enjoy the movie, but it genuinely has kept me from re-eating No way Home for a third time.
For me it's one of those personal things where I can overlook it, but it doesn't mean I don't know it's there. I think with more time and tbh a better director the movie could've been a 10/10 all the way through.
@@Browntable Same here
@@samgraef3028 Man that CGI Spiderman that jumped through the portal doesn't even have the same Anatomical structure as Andrew Garfield luckily the story is good but still, god damn.
My first watch of No way home I would’ve given a 9/10 but as it went on the CGI got worse and brought it down to a 6/10 for me. Like the opening looked like ass, the webs that attach to buildings in Spider-Man PS4 looked better than the web that attached to the sewer lid in that opening.
@@peculiar3529 come on you can't bring down the rating because of cgi
3D animator here! Nice to see some light being brought onto the subject. But would also like to mention, the artists I’ve spoken to who worked on Avatar said it was one of their worst experiences they’ve had for crunch, unpaid overtime and poor director relationship, which is unfortunate because it looked so good
I think I read that the latest Stranger Things season came out with the VFX still being worked on, Netflix had to do a second release a day or so later with the finished VFX
Marvel definitely dropped the ball on this one...they flew too close to the sun
*if only they put all that CGI budget into that long awaited catwoman (2004) sequel….*
They couldn’t even have a actual suit and actor wear the suit for a scene than to CGI everything
The floating head from Love and Thunder kills me 🤣
I think Taika's disrespectful comments about his movie's VFX show the significant disconnect between directors and their movies nowadays. The fact that Taika laughed at the VFX shot shows that he is unaware of how hard it is to make VFX and that he has never seen this frame until now. He was not even a little involved in overseeing the post-production of Thor. About a decade ago, directors supervised all aspects of a film. As a kid, I watched the BTS features of movies and saw Michale Bay, Peter Jackson, and Steven Speilberg looking over the shoulder of video editors and VFX people. Nowadays, I no longer see that. The disconnect and lack of understanding of the craft by others in the film contributes to the VFX crisis.
5:56 i think this is why people like Bong Joon Ho that uses AND understands how CGI works and how hard it is has used CGI better compared to this type of projects, they're "manufacturing" contents for people without even giving it time to breathe for the media consumers (MCU stans) to absorb it. like didn't they literally released No Way Home, Multiverse of Madness and Thor Love and Thunder without even 6 months apart and that's not even including the Disney+ series they have 😭😭😭
ok I have to add Bong Joon Ho's The Host didn't get enough budget so that's why it looks the way it is
@@plastic_cleopatra One fun thing about the Host is that while the monster doesn't look good it somehow still always seems to exist within, even when the shots themselves are very complicated. I suppose that's what happens simply when you plan these things out.
I'd say Guillermo del Toro is the guy when it comes to getting the most out of the budget.
He's of course mostly famous for more practical effects but I feel that in general he really understands what is needed to make an effect look convincing, practical or CGI.
I think a lot of projects just lack having someone who understands the process start to finish so it can be considered from the start. I feel Marvel is just working by:
-we need some people to write a script to hit the plot points we set out.
-we need some people to get the shots in.
-we need some people to do the VFX.
It's a studio hiring people to get all the bits of a movie and then expect it to work.
In that regard Bong Joon Ho is a great example as you can see with Parasite that pretty much the whole movie was already drawn out shot by shot before the shoot even began.
My favourite movie of last year is Aftersun and there's this video on youtube showing the final scene (so massive spoilers) and putting it next to the script. Of course there are some changes in the final edit, but you can clearly see it was written by someone who wrote for the screen, despite how much the film feels like it's improvisational and put together in the edit.
Kinda moved away from special effects but I feel the issue is that, in the end, the project is overseen by someone who is not a filmmaker.
The infinity Saga took 11 years to cultivate. And a lot of that CG in the later films is jank. The Multiverse Saga started last year and they're trying to wrap it up in 2026. 2023 is in 4 months. It's not going to get any better any time soon unless they unionize now.
The Artists should be given the time schedules that are done for Animation. Also Marvel should do a balance between practical and CGI effects.
Atp there’s barely any practical effects to be seen in the films nowadays, don’t get me wrong I’m not saying that every movie needs to have practical effects but at least giving a good balance between the two, such as the TASM 1 BTS videos.
Marvel then: "So we had this team create a real Iron Man suit we could use for filming."
Marvel now: "So everything in this shot is CGI. We paid our artists with a $2 bill and a stick of gum for all their work."
This is a problem in most workplaces. In today's society, I believe that VFX artists/game, developers, fast food, grocery stores, and factory workers have it the absolute worst. I worked in a grocery store and it was awful. Every day I was expected to do the impossible and work at lightning speeds which resulted in me constantly pulling or straining something. Bosses that are complete jerks are, unfortunately, everywhere. And they don't seem to be going anywhere.
The crazy thing is even fans are thinking “hold up, this is a *LOT.*” So like how are these artists supposed to keep up with any type of movie with this release schedule-much less with Marvel’s drastic overuse of CGI.
I've never forgot when one of the VFX artists said that they had a She-Hulk 3D model already done, inspired by the muscled design from the comics, and the big guys looked at it and where like: "nah, I didn't like it. Do it all again." I understood why She-Hulk looks so strange in the show
I think the most frustrating part is that it's just completely unnecessary.
With better planning these projects could have better results with less work.
I'm glad to see how popular the talk on the VFX artists is. I feel like a few years ago it wouldn't have been brought up or done so as a tiny mention at the end of a video. Without talking politics, it does just give me a little more hope for the future.
I think bad cg is just so common now that we are all use to it. Basically every single big budget movie just relies on cg even when it isn't necessary, which makes all the effects worse.
Red Notice has perhaps the most MCU-like VFX usage in a non-MCU movie considering its budget ($200m).
In comparison, Free Guy was a theatrically-released movie with lots of VFX, released by Disney even (and also stars Ryan Reynolds), but it looked better (Ryan's deepfaked face on the buff guy aside) and was made on a smaller budget, and it's no wonder it got a Best VFX nom at the Oscars.
THANK YOU FOR BRINGING UP UNIONS. I’m so sick of reviewers treating this as a solely artistic/management issue, when it’s so clearly a labor rights issue as well. And then to see directors shit on the VFX artists that are crunching instead of living their lives
(That last line was a mic drop and half, too)
I've been trying to get a CG-heavy indie film into preproduction recently, and with all of this becoming more relevant and well-known, I've been actually been planning on centering the projects production schedule and release around any CG artists I bring on board.
Now I'm motivated even further to do that, not only to make sure the VFX are the best they can be, and not only to stick it to Marvel, but most importantly to try and set an example of "Hey, this small indie team made a film that looks 10x better than big blockbusters all because they treated their VFX artists like people instead of tools"!
Banger video as always Mauricio, love your stuff, and IRC is some good shit!
After watching a copius amount of corrodor crew, i have a new respect for vfx artists. To all vfx artists, you have my full respect.
Even those at marvel, with the time crunch, its still amazing
Imagine you’re pursuing vfx for a career and you see Marvel alone announce 40 projects
Starting to feel that the MCU will collapse into itself slowly and painfully... Seriously, they should have ended it with Endgame and start the next 10 years fresh! With stuff like The Boys, Invincible and The Batman, I think comic book movies will have 2 sub genres; 1 kids version, 1 adult version.
Marvel should really delve into R rated movies for the adults and keep its PG13 for the kids. Or even have 2 cuts of the same film? Let the audience decide. Adults can go to the R rated and families go to the PG rated.
I love how they end up fixing some of the cgi after the release rather than take their time to get perfect vfx for the first release
Honestly it’s wack
They said the Snyder cut was the beginning of dlc for movies, meanwhile marvel has been doing it since endgame
@@creed8712 yeah I don’t get that either bc the Snyder cut is a whole different movie compared to what we got while a movie like Spider-Man no way home adds scenes and re releases it in theaters
VFX artists deserve better
Your floating legitimately head looks so much better than the one in Thor.
This reminds me a lot of Studio Mappa in the anime industry.
Animators are overworked and underpaid. For example in Attack on Titan, but Mappa then decided to add in another area for animators to work in (but at least the director knows the time constraints).
The reason why some anime look better than others is the production schedule, where producers are not giving enough time. I think time is the biggest factor, rather than budget.
It doesn't matter to them if the final product looks bad or not, because at the end of the day, people prefer quantity over quality. And the worst thing is that if someone decides to quit, they can easily be replaced.
I think that is what's happening in Marvel. So many shows and movies are made because people want MORE. I mean, they are already planning for Phase 5 and 6.
And it's one of, if not the biggest industries, so there's already more pressure on artists and the people working there.
So if VFX artists start to quit, I'm worried if they can be as easily replaced, because there's always someone willing to work more than others.
I hope the situation doesn't get worse than it already has and I wish the artists well.
That is honestly the best comparison I've seen! The quality of AOT, while not like absolute trash or anything (imo it's honestly pretty good), has noticeably changed and not just because the studios switched.
WIT studios (the studio that used to handle AOT) in the earlier days were given more time compared to MAPPA to polish their art and make the movements feel more dynamic and fluid. But because of the time constraints put on MAPPA artists, when AOT was given over to them, the change in the quality of movement the characters made with the odm gear occasionally felt kind of stiff compared to WIT (which back then had me pausing the scenes every now and then to look through the individual shots and see all the neat little details put)
Part 1 and 2 of AOT S4 are very good on their own despite the time constraints put on the artists. But you can really see just how much time can have an effect on quality because comparing the odm gear sequences from part 1 and 2 to the more recent part 3, part 3 has improved significantly.
Anyways that said, let the artists do their work! And let them rest please. They deserve it.
I'm not a vfx artist but as someone who draws for hours on end, sitting at a desk drawing takes time. With every section I draw on, I make sure that it's up to the most best standards.
And yes, dead lines are really important when you do any art related project but rushing the people who work the hardest making their artwork is not fair.
Marvel really should take a 1 year or maybe more years off of Marvel content because at least the vfx people get a well deserved rest.
OMG I have recently been ranting about the way projects go at work, with lack of forethought and planning and the issues that come out of it. It's strangely sobering to see I am not alone and even on such huge projects like Marvel ones the frustrations are there and real. Hats off to all the VFX artists that put in so much hard work.
This is just the norm under a capitalistic society, every worker in pretty much every industry is exploited and over worked. The current best way to combat it is thru unionization, don’t expect industries or companies to ever do anything just cause you beg them to be ‘nicer’
100%
Shang Chi could have throwback to old Jackie Chan films but became about dragons
If only there were more directors like Christopher Nolan, that guy always knows exactly what he wants in his movies before making them, and always keeps a harmonious mix between practical effects and visual effects, and treats his crews fairly, at least that's as far as I know, but he really is an ideal director and I'm pretty sure anyone who worked for him was proud of it instead of tired of it.
Thanks for your video. Marvel Studio's treatment of the VFX artists is the reason I canceled my DisneyPlus subscription. No more superheroes, unless Disney/Marvel Studios stops exploiting the VFX artists.
I know there are many children who were literally not alive before the mcu. They are loyal fans. They will watch whatever the mcu comes out with. But for those of us with a developed hippocampus, we need to literally not watch their films until they start making good work again
Toms suit does look amazing. Its sad artists arent given the time to do the same for the rest of the project
Why can’t they just make actual time suits in endgame?? This isn’t the Hulk this are suits that’s were easier to just make than to CGI
Like stated in the video, Marvel can't commit, and let the work fall under the CG/VFX artists fully. They likely do this because they know they can get away with it.
@@Browntable They even CGI words on signboards like the shield tom Holland used in far from home like TF?? Even the most illogical thing, they want to CGI rather than having the actor or stuntman wear the actual suit that'll take minutes to shoot the scene and actually looks real and far cheaper and less time consuming, they're just CGI for the sake of CGI at this point just bc they feel they have unlimited budget because they're own by Disney, just look at the Raimi, Nolan and even TASM films, it all look so real and good because they know and want to use mostly practical props and only CGI for scenes and stunts that's too difficult or dangerous to perform, Sam Raimi took over a month just to make the web where Tobey and Kirsten layed on in Spider-Man 3, he and Nolan took months just to make props and scenes that'll only be for a few seconds or minutes just to make the scene just good as it can while Disney/Marvel CGI everything for no reason even things as simple as the wordings on a signboard.🤦♂️ Glad more people are calling them out for years everytime I complain about MCU's bad CGI or overrated Rotten Tomatoes ratings, I'll get called a 'DC Fanboy' or 'Blinded By Nostalgia'
you would figure that a multi billion dollar studio like marvel would make actual costumes instead of forcing the artists to make cgi suits.
I don't know why but I still get surprised about how universal is the mistreatment of animators in the entertainment industry.
The real multiverse of madness would have been animators being free to leave the work basement.
to be fair, there is always some kind of mistreatment of workers in any industry. Marvel just have the spotlight nowadays.
Yeah, now all the shit that’s happened with HBO Max it’s only bring more and more attention to these problems, which I hope won’t be forgotten about in a week or two.
Japan too
@@_yujin_ so you work for them you die of stress, you don't work for them you die poor. that certainly feels like a red flag for me.
According to Jessica Gao the head writer, they had to cut/rewrite the script after it's already finished to save CGI budget, which is the main reason why there's more Jennifer than She-Hulk
If so, why didn't they just cast a muscular woman and do makeup like the Guardians of the Galazy, and only use CGI to de-muscular her when she's Jennifer, like what they did with Captain America?
She-Hulk isn't a female version of Hulk, she's a female human that has Hulk's power, that's why the character doesn't look like monster, makeup is definately more suitable than CGI here
Makeup cant really make a green skin look like actual skin. Thats why they didnt do makeup for the Avatar movies. It doesnt refract or show subsurface scattering like normal skin does.
That aside. The reason she hulk looks kind of terrible is because of time constraints. She could easily look better if the artists were just given time without consuming any extra budget. Also the fact that the final episode probably wasnt even finished when the first one released. Too much work in too little time
@@kooale3252 Hello? Remember Gamora? Not to mention I'm 90% sure the reason Na'vi aren't done with makeup has nothing to do with realism, it's simply because The Na'vi aren't human with blue skin, they looks different than humans, that's why they used CG
From the wise words of a legend.
"You can't rush art."
-Old man from Toy Story 2.
That intro was so wild am crying 😭😭
i love how the floating head at the start of the video looks better than the one from the multi-million dollar movie
corridor digital had a vfx guy that worked on avengers endgame. he said that shots were still being done 2 WEEKS before the damn premiere. this stuff is wild and they need to slow tf down.
The fact that they pushed Endgame up a month so it'd release earlier, and didn't tell the VFX artists, is disgusting.
@@Browntable wow I didn’t know that! That’s is indeed disgusting I agree!
Honestly, this whole subject needs pushing so much - it's about basic decency towards workers. Plus, producing media that everyone involved can genuinely be proud of.
0:15 that open though… had me dying🤣🤣🤣🤣
Here’s hoping they unionize soon so that disneys shitty quantity over quality plan hits the fan.
Indeed.
This VFX controversy is also revealing something else that is becoming quite evident with phase 4, the writing problem. I read in one of these VFX articles a quote that said that it felt like they were writing/re-writing the movies as the VFX artist were doing their job which is very post production. And considering how writing has been noticeably weak during phase 4, it's no surprise. Doesn't give you much hope for the future. It's sad to see how greed is always at the forefrotn with these franchises. They made a name for themselves already, they could focus on quality and keep up that reputation but no, they'll gradually work the franchise to the ground because it's never enough so might as well exploit it as hard and fast as possible.
Yep they change stuff on the fly, it’s ridiculous.
Like imagine going to a construction crew a month before finalizing a building, that a third of it needs to be redone. It’s wild.
I'm not a big union guy, but I can absolutely get behind saying screw Disney for treating people this way.
Floating Head Mauricio will haunt my dreams
I completely agree with the time issue. They tighten the schedule more and more. As long as they are allowed the time they need for Secret Wars. They must NOT f*ck up Secret Wars.
And marvel will still hire directors just to take any and all power from them. They lack direction. The crew lacks basic respect. Its disgusting and my heart breaks for all the film makers and artists involved with marvel and disney.
There’s a specific scene in Infinity War where Hulk was supposed to burst out of the Hulkbuster during the battle of Wakanda but they scrapped it late into production but they still made toys about it. This is just one example of marvel doing what you just mentioned
I started noticing the CGI problem whenever I look at Tom, Tobey and Andrew's Spideys. They all look like they came from a video game.
Honestly the best way to boycott marvel is to not watch their content or buy their merchandise; it doesn’t matter how much criticism, backlash, video essays are on CZcams; as long as we’re paying for movie tickets and that Disney+ subscription tuning in every week to watch the 20th show this year, they’re just gonna keep doing whatever the hell they want.
Our comments got us a worse floating CGI head and marvel getting a new vfx studio despite people coming out about the abuse.
As long as we’re filling their pockets what do they care?
And yet, viewers will continue to flock to the theaters and watch their shows day 1. Until people hold them accountable for their actions, it won't stop.
@@iceastone unfortunately that’s reality for the moment. However I know things will turn around for the better, things have gotten better to an extent already so I’m holding out hope and faith all will be well
I got WAYYY too invested in that Taika Waititi skit lmao
The fact they use CGI for fabric suits is ridiculous.
Every field needs a union
It feels to me that this vfx stuff is just part of the larger issue as a whole which is the fact that animators are just treated like shit in the industry
Shows being removed, workplace overworking, livelihoods in jeopardy. I could go on