F-4E Phantom vs Mig-21 Fishbed: Vietnam War Dogfight | DCS
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- čas přidán 25. 07. 2024
- We simulate dogfights over Vietnam between the F-4E Phantom and Mig-21 Fishbed. We deliberately did this dogfight before we've had time to fully learn the F-4E's air to air functions. We figured it would be interesting to re-visit this fight in a few months once we've fully learnt it to see the difference.
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0:00 Overview
3:27 1 vs 1 Dogfights
20:43 2 vs 2 Dogfights
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#GRDogfight #DCSDogfight #F4E #Phantom #GR #DCSWorld #Dogfight #Aviation #AviationGaming #FlightSimulators - Hry
Personally, I find the best way to stop guys 'turning inside me' is to not put guys inside me but hey, each to their own 🙌
oof
... and demonetized. 😊
🤣
Giggity
In the Vietnam War, neither the Vietnamese MiGs nor the American F-4s carried flares.
The early model MiGs supplied to North Vietnam didn't have the ability to carry flares. And the F-4s carried double chaff, and no flares - because the U.S. high command correctly understood that the North Vietnamese had 10 times as many SA-2 radar guided Surface to Air Missiles (SAMs) as they had MiG fighters - so the SAMs were by far the biggest threat, and the U.S. aircraft therefore needed lots and lots of chaff.
Thanks for this!
so it could have, if the expected situation was different?
I understood the biggest threat were the AAA, because they forced US aircraft into the SAM altitude bands. Which required chaff and ECM measures.
@@5Andysalive : Yes, the F-4 did have the ability to carry both chaff and flares. It had 2 dispensers, and each dispenser could carry either 30 flares or 30 chaff.
However, over Vietnam, flares were rarely needed as the North Vietnamese had only very limited numbers of operational MiG-21s at any one time, and the MiG-17s and MiG-19s used by North Vietnam couldn’t carry the K-13 (AA-2 Atoll) IR guided heat seeking missile.
Feels like you are starting a bit close together / a bit slow? The Phantom would do better at higher merge speeds perhaps. In the F-4 you do need to try to keep the energy up i.e. not have the stick in your gut the whole fight
This is a repeat of a post from yesterday . . . From a 1967 USAF report on aerial combat tactics against the MiG-21: "Do not try to turn with a MiG-21. Also, avoid climbing turns, level flight accelerations, scissors, or yo-yo maneuvers both in defensive and offensive maneuvering. . . . Use the 'hit and run' tactic."
A
The f4 was designed as an interceptor, it was a mediocre fighter, mediocre fighter bomber, mediocre weasel, and mediocre recon. It's replacements, f15, f16, a10, were all the best because they specialized at being the best at one job. The f4 was a jack of all, master of none. See and similarities with the f35? You think usaf and usn would have learned their lesson, but not learning from history they have opted to repeat it.
@@ohiobrian8993 Its replacements had the benefits of several years worth of technological development and money that the forces were much more willing to spend; this is a ridiculous conclusion through and through. The F-4 struggled more against the rules of engagement, unreliable missiles due to how they were stored, and atrophying pilot skill than anything else which was fixed later on. The F-15, F-16, F-14, and basically every aircraft since then has been multirole in some form; hell even the Raptor dropped bombs before firing missiles. And the A-10's most effective job was shooting Mavericks which was also done by the F-16s among other things that had the fighters do more CAS than the CAS plane. The USAF _did_ learn its lessons, especially that the end of that phrase is what gives it meaning: a jack of all trades master of none is often better than a master of one.
@@ohiobrian8993 Mediocre? Absolutely not. It's the US' most produced jet fighter ever and that's for a good reason. It was fast, had a high payload capacity, very versatile, and was fairly maneuverable given how heavy it was. Just because it couldn't out-turn a MiG-21 at high altitude doesn't mean it's a mediocre fighter (It did much better at lower altitudes, but I don't believe this works in DCS).
Also, there's nothing wrong with multirole fighters. Being able to equip bombs or AGM's on a fighter aircraft doesn't make it weak. The F-16 and F-15E are both multirole fighters by the way.
I know the Discoveey show Dogfights wasnt considered the best show, but most shows with the F-4 vs Mig 21 was using overshoota, barrel rolls to stay behind, and vertical maneuvers like vertical scissors, using the weight and power to your advantage. You can probably look them up.
I would love to see this with the F4E having both pilot and WSO in the 1v1 against the Mig21 to see if the extra eyes benefit from keeping track of the enemy.
Agreed
@@grimreapers give it a few days/weeks, and *Rematch!*
Finally we got this classic fight in the game
Not sure who thought the F-4 wasn't a gorgeous aircraft... Car-wise I think it looks likes a cross between an early Mustang/Corvette and a '95 VW Corrado...
Excellent. Thank you! Hope you stay well, cap! Excellent discussion at the end about the situation.
Speed is life. You gotta be fast in the F4, she's a brick. Keep your energy up, and use the vertical. Either way, it's a tough fight.
A climbing scissors, using the power of the F4 engines.
I'm really enjoying these F-4 missions. She's high on the list of aircraft to get. Thanks GR for another fun mission! Fly Army - 🚁
Cap, quick question - why are y'all getting into low-E turn fights rather than leveraging your advantages and keeping the engagement in a high-E state?
Just don't really know what we're doing in this plane yet TBH.
Fair enough. I always saw Phantom v Fresco/Fishbed fights as being analogous to Warhawk v Zeke fights. In short, something to avoid at all costs.
Totally get y'all's New Plane Enthusiasm, though, coupled to "IDGAF about the outcome, I just wanna see what it can do" attitude. :)
Hert Otto Korrekt FTW - "Phantom v Fresco/Fishbed TURNfights"
The US found the best tactic was to use superior power to open the range, then use slashing attacks, turn in to try to get a shot off then open the range up again to repeat. Merging then joining a turning fight is a big no no.
To Grim Reapers. First, I absolutely love your channel. Next, excellent content and professionally and expertly presented. I remember the old days of Dogfights on The History Channel and your videos are shades of that once great show. I'm retired and it's a nice treat to watch the lot of you having fun. Thank you for your time and showing the community how it's done. 😎🖖✈
I've always been curious about the F4, thanks for doing this, looking forward to more F4 tests. (Good job Simba!)
We miss you brother, but get well first. Much love!
1:08 the Phantom has a very menacing front-on profile
and it is the opposite when looking at it from behind.
Cap, I noticed a few times when you were trying to lock him in your pipper that you didn’t have cage mode on (the radar was still a regular mode) so if you’re hitting nose wheel steering acquisition, nothing‘s gonna happen
Yup my bad.
I’ve made the mistake a few times of thinking the auto-acquisition hadn’t locked because I didn’t see the range ring around the pipper. Not sure why but sometimes it isn’t there, but if the little “dash” on the radar representing the target is bracketed (like when Jest locks it) you’re good to go .
It’s awkward and clumsy…like the missile fire control on a late 1960s fighter should be
and the gun/heat/radar switch should be on "heat" even if you plan to shoot guns/ Aim-/s because the position of the switch determines if the scan will be center, or more to the left or to the right
What a great video!watching all ya videos
My understanding was the F4 needed artistic use of lagging to stay in trail fighting the migs. And they were far less experienced in the VPAF. And only had like 20 of them total. They didn't let them stay up with Phantoms.
Glad some people are able to actually play with this module, I get 9 fps if any other planes are around. All other modules are 60-90 fps
I get high frame rates but lots of stuttering / short freezes (small scenarios with few units)
The new modelling eats more resources.
Now this I have been waiting for.
Awesome fights! At some point I (And I think a lot of others) would like to see you all revisit this after reading the HAVE DOUGHNUT evaluation report. Employing the tactics from that and seeing if you all can get an improved win/loss ratio against the 21. Thanks for the content and stay healthy cap!
I’ve read parts of HAVE DOUGHNUT and I don’t think it applies because (1) DCS has the MiG-21bis which is a huge upgrade in thrust and (2) the MiG-21 as modeled in DCS doesn’t have the same restrictions (unable to employ weapons above about 500 knots due to vibrations) as those described in that evaluation.
If you’re trying You have to put it in heat mode for your Aim-9 so that the radars are looking at the pipper. once it locks the plane up then you could switch to radar/aim-7.
It just has to do with where the radar looking. It’s not looking at the pipper when you’re in radar
Thanks, will try.
Edit: “if you’re trying to lock using auto acquisition, you have….”
Started playing DCS for the first time a week ago, and chose to start with the F4E, absolutely love it.
Still lots to learn, but ill master it one day
Greatest 'DCS'video ever seen
There's a simple thing that Gim Reapers do that Growling Sidewinder opponents won't is abide by "merge" rules for these competitions. Growling Sidewinder often has opponents who are maneuvering before the actual merge. I've even seen Russian thrust-vectoring versus US where the Russian aircraft has almost completely flipped around by the time Growling Sidewinder has even gotten to the actual merge. When complained about, Growling insists there are no rules for the merge besides not shooting each other in the face.
27:25 'I have you now!' Would have been the oerfect Star Wars quote right there,
This is why you fly with a WINGMAN
The AIM-9P3 we have in DCS is a borderline all-aspect missile. It's vastly superior to the R-3S and stems from the early 1980's. The AIM-9P is an improved version of the AIM-9J (which is what you lot should have used, lacking an AIM-9D or -9E appropriate for 1968) and wasn't fielded until 1978. By the time the AIM-9P3 was was released the VPAF would have been using using the R-13M or R-60.
I'm kinda dissapointed Heatblur didn't add the D and E versions since the loadouts we have right now skip an entire generation of Sidewinders, and I doubt the B was used even close to as often as the later versions on the F-4E.
@@frostgd8040 Same. Since so much of the F-4's prime usage was with precisely that missing generation of Sidewinders, its an unfortunate omission. Maybe in a future update.
@@frostgd8040 IIRC, the USAF F-4E can NOT! use Aim-9D, G or H missiles, as the Aim-9E and J did not use a coolant gas on the seeker head. they used Peltier (thermoelectric) cooling.
@@Skyfighter64 very interesting, I didn't know that. The E would still be a nice addition but like you said the D, G, and H would be unrealistic, it seems.
@@frostgd8040 from what I read, the F-4C was redesigned to use the Aim-4 missile series, and didn't have enough coolant capacity to cool the warheads for more than 2 mins usable. The USAF decided that thermoelectric cooling would theoretically give potentially unlimited seeker time, though I am inclined to believe this affected sidewinder accuracy, because the cooling effect would be less than gaseous coolant.
Hey Cap, In order to get Sparrow kills in the F-4E, you need to WAIT before you can fire once you lock your bandit. Guidance information needs to be provided to the sparrow once you lock the bandit. After about 4 seconds of having your bandit locked, you can shoot the sparrow.
Hi Cap, as some of you may know, Sweden recently decided to send ASC 890 Surveillance and Control aircraft to Ukraine. It would be cool to see a wargame with that type aircraft together with european donated F-16 fighter jets. For example defend Ukraine from enemy cruise missiles or a more aggressive air-to-air combat mission, cheers!
All the f4 pilots I talked with always said they used the drag of the f4 to help beat migs since the mig is a slippery bandit it's very good to force an overshoot.
I think I'm going to have to re-read On Yankee Station. I do remember from it that Navy pilots were sent to Airforce units to help out with tactics but at least in the authors case the Airforce pilots didn't want to know. The Navy also did well against the Migs flying the Grumman Crusader. I can't remember how well the Navy did with their F4's.
I always was under the impression that the F-4 is a 2 circle fighter, not a 1 circle like the mig.. idk
All fighters are energy fighters. 1 and 2 circle fights are training exercises to teach basic turning geometry and sight pictures. That is why they are called ”basic” fighter maneuvers. You’ll notice real fighter pilots and (weirdly enough) top level War Thunder players don’t really talk about 1 and 2 circle BFM.
@@wmouse I'm still in the basic fighter pilot of knowledge. So I am still learning.. Hehehe.. TY for the extra information.. I am having problems with finding info. beyond I guess basic aerobatic/fighter pilot stuff..
That's a LOT of learning you have to do there, fellas. Good effort with the F4, though.
Remember that the MiG-21bis with emergency power can produce 21825 lbf of thrust, the MiG-21F topped out at only 12680 lbf of thrust.
Please fly The F-4 VS The A-4!
Amazing to watch...!!
With cage/autoacquisition you need to select Heat. That will center the boresight radar.
Radar moves the radae to the rights of gunsight, guns to the left.
So your need to have heat selected, then when you get the lock change to radar.
You can FEEL how much of a brick the F-4 is, even though you are just watching, as Cap grunts his way through trying to maneuver the thing.
Need a control tutorial @Chap, to include countermeasures.
Will you guys do this comparison with other cold war aircraft like you did for wwii? I'd like to see mirage and others too.
I recall seeing an interview with a Vietnam era Phantom pilot where he described a dogfight with a MIG. I'm blanking on his name and don't feel like looking it up, but post war he went on to be a congressman and was infamously busted for taking bribes.
Anyway, if I recall the interview correctly, he used the vertical when ever the MIG got on his tail. Apparently the F-4 could out climb just about everything, so when the MIG got around behind him he'd light up the afterburner, pull the Phantom straight up and maintain the climb until the MIG could no longer follow. When the MIG was forced to break off he'd roll over and try to zoom and boom.
He said the MIG was agile as f-- and was good at avoiding the attack, so he had to keep repeating the maneuver over and over for something like twenty minutes before the MIG made a mistake and he killed it.
I don't recall what flavor of MIG he was up against, but the way described the maneuverability disparity between the two aircraft reminded me of these fights and is why I thought of it.
Randy Cunningham?
@@misterrpicc1887 That's him. Randy "Duke" Cunningham.
Simba's 2nd iteration in the F-4 is fairly representative of what i've seen in comparative EM diagrams of contemporary MiG-21's and slatted F-4's. That is, it is possible for the Phantom to match or outperform the Fishbed, as long as the former keeps the energy high.
I think fuel consumption was also big issue. I'm not sure how much was left on cutting floor, but what was the average flight time for F-4s, and Mig-21s? It seems like it's 5 minutes, and you need to start looking for nearest gas station.
Fun vid.
Why was the rear-aspect sidewinder so bad in this era?
You'd think having full view of the bogeys' exahust would be best right?
Early day of sensors. Analogue tech so no image processing
My uncle was an F-4 and an F-111 pilot back in Nam. He was trained to dogfight by Robin Olds and Duke Cunningham himself. 3 kills with a Phantom and he primarily did ground attack in the F-111. He did have 1 air-to-air kill though with guns. 1 short of an ace. He did bomb a tractor depot in the F-111. Snake and nape. They were trying to turn the tractors into a M113 equivalent and it failed.
Most important piece of advice if you want to succeed in dogfights when flying the F4E vs MiG21Bis = Always try to force 2 circle fights, and don't do aggressive maneuvers below 400 knots. Be gentle on the stick and periodically check the AoA inidicator -> if you start hearing beeps gently reduce back stick, as you're pulling too much AoA, which bleeds your speed fast in the F4 for only mediocre instantaneous rate in return. The F4Es advantage is sustained turn rate (not instantaneous turn rate), and in order to maximize this you want to make sure that any form of sustained turning is conducted within a 450-510 knots IAS range. At those speeds the F4E will outturn the MiG21 in any 2 circle fight with the load outs you had in this video - and that is irrespective of what speed the MiG commits to such a fight in.
The video compression is probably not helping any, but those migs are hard to see against the ground!
Still want to see what the F4 can do with 3 gun pods. Is there no air scenario? With such horrible missiles I would think the guns would do better in a head-on approach/merge.
Remember the F-4 was not designed as a dog fighter. It was designed as a fleet defense platform to protect against bombers. The thought at the time was fighter vs fighter days were over.🙄
Wouldn't you want to go vertical w the migs instead of out turning them?
Pretty sure the 21 bis slightly has a better TW and climb rate
Cap, your voice is sounding good. All good?
Way to go Simba!
Still love the old Fishfinger 😋
Slight misstep Cap. First flight of the E model was 67. Went into service in 68. Yes a very small difference but details matter.
9:36 I think neither US nor Russian IR missiles tracked against ground clutter too well.
hate seeing one of my favorite aircraft, and the first Blue Angels aircraft I ever got to see perform as a child, get beaten up here... but pilot training is a thing - tactics are a thing - I'm not that surprised. Carry on.
Jester "C'mon let's see some of that pilot shit!" lol
I've not played DCS, but observed that Jester was nearly immediately terrified of Simba... voice-shaking terrified! 😨😱
(Probably fairly reasonable, on reflection)
Try F-4E "Chico the gunfighter" loadout. Please!
I want to see F-4E vs. Mig-23.
Thought the phantom in pairs would fair better.
I think both planes look/feel/behave very wobbly and unnatural.
Do you know the spacegame X4? It uses two different ways when AI fights AI: to my knowledge far away units "dice it out", while nearby units "fly it out". This leads to the strange situation that each spacecraft has two performances. It could be that one spacecraft is better when "dicing it out" but losing fights which are flown out.
I guess Falcon BMS has a similar problem.
In DCS we have a worse situation IMHO: AI flight model vs flight model of human flown aircraft. The differences seem to be way too big sometimes.
On top the AI fails sometimes with most simple tasks: if they are behind you with guns only, sometimes just flying a straight line for minutes is the safest defensive maneuver.
For that reason I wonder what will happen when the dynamic campaign is available: it will take more CPU power, which usually further decreases the capabilities of AI units which are close.
Hello my name is melo and I am new to the channel. Not sure if this is something you guys have ever done before. A battle between carriers where the fighter wings can only use guns an laser-guided bombs at altitude . So the scenario I envision a modern US aircraft carrier what is full complement of Fighters are armed with standard loadout of guns and or gun pods also armed with radar guided bombs to eliminate the enemies carrier of Chinese or Russian. No missiles whatsoever no missiles that can lock on to the carriers carriers only defense machine gun based Point defense c, Ram just curious if that's something that has ever been done
It all comes down to practice. 🤔
cant find my first comment. wanted to correct it. every 10th ever produced f4 got shot down just in a single war.
Mig 17 versus F-4 without guns PLEASE!
Also try it 25000 feet ,
You've got BVR missiles. Your opponent does not. BUT your not allowed to fire unless you see them ? WHY ??? 🤪
Because of political Rules of Engagement in the Vietnam War.
The U.S. had far more aircraft in the sky than the North Vietnamese did, so the U.S. politicians were very worried that gung-ho pilots using Sparrows in BVR dogfights would result in too many friendly fire incidents (shooting down other U.S. aircraft by mistake). They didn't trust the pilots to interpret IFF signals correctly in the heat of combat.
So the F-4 pilots were only allowed to fire Sparrows after the targets had been positively identified as hostiles (bandits). This identification could be either visual by the F-4 pilots, or by a U.S. shipborne radar, or by an AWACs aircraft.
@@timonsolus Yep. And America lost. Go figure.
We didn't have IFF capabilities for most of the war and those introduced circa '72 were very elementary. In the early stages of the war , a flight of F-105s was thought to be MIGS and downed by long distance Sparrow missiles. That's why visual identification was integrated into the regs.
@@NobilityandLoyalty : IFF was invented in WW2, so it’s very unlikely that the U.S. aircraft didn’t have some kind of IFF in Vietnam.
@@timonsolus it was in experimental stages in WWII and results were a mixed bag of results, certainly nothing to bet lives on . See Combat Tree.😀
the Mig-21 lock tone is so Spooky , Cap i though you were making random sounds with your voice🤣🤣
In the F4 at low Alt use more heat S-Lock rather Radar, we all know Radar isnt good with the ground clutter , heat in other hand "never" fails. come on Jon
i think that when f4 drivers have enough time to learn to fight it will be more colse like in real life training is most important , but mig will propably be better dogfihter and f4 will dominate if bwr is option
🥰
3:08, my prediction is F4
The F4 Sounds like being in a McDonalds
the f4 is a boom'n'zoom fighter. if you merge with her, you're basically dead. the only chance the phantom has is in the vertical, and even then, that mig21 can pretty much catch it
This comment doesn't really jive with the video results
Hum... well, Olds never had a problem shooting down mig 21s. Seems like a user or game problem. Not wanting to be a jerk but history contrasted with your experiences, What else could I say?
Hi CAP, if you and the Reapers wish to fly the F-4 well, you need to read the book SCREAM of EAGLES. This book is THE BOOK on how to fight in the F-4, and the creation of TOP GUN. The CARDINAL RULE they discovered at TOP GUN in 1969 to successfully flying the Phantom against all MIGs (17,19,21) is to enter the fight at NO LESS THAN 550 kts, to use the vertical, and when speeds bleeds to 350 kts, extend 2-3 miles to build your energy back up, then pitch back into the fight at NO LESS THAN 550 kts. They learned to fly "The Egg', which is to fly in the pure vertical. If you and the beautiful boys read this book and follow the rules for flying/fighting in the F-4, you will be successful. Horizontal turn fighting at 300 kts and 25 AOA ain't gunna cut the English Mustard no matter how hot it is. SCREAM OF EAGLES CAP, SCREAM OF EAGLES. If you do not fly the F-4 exactly as outlined in this book, you will be severely disappointed with the F-4 module and, will lose interest in flying it. It ain't the plane that sucks, its you. 550 knots CAP, no less than 550 knots. Your window of success is between 550 knots and above 550 knots which includes 5501 knots, 552 knots, and anything above this. This will bring the joy back into the F-4 and keep it here.
In addition CAP, at TOP GUN (read SCREAM OF EAGLES... did I mention this?), they learned the MIG-21 when performing a break turn, experiences -3.5G of deceleration. That's NEGATIVE 3.5Gs. THIS IS WHY YOU WANT 550 knots so you can go vertical to preserve your energy and come back down with some SMASH. Meanwhile, the 21 went from 500+knots to 150-200 knots in 2 seconds and is a sitting duck for your Boom after your Zoom. REAPERS... make us all very proud.
Surprise surprise, judging by the viewer warning at the start, I was gonna comment about how it's not the plane, it's the pilot. In Vietnam the pilots decided who won and who lost an engagement. The Viet Cong pilots had little to no idea what to do on the move, had minimal training, and no experience. US pilots had all of that and then a little more.
Instead of being historically accurate, you put people who have barely flown an F4 into F4s, and people who can actually fly a jet into the opposing side. How did I know you were gonna pull this bullshit..
what a horrible plane for dogfight
many say the F-16 was inspired on the Mig-21, now i see why
guys no offense your flying skills on the F-4 aren't good, using the advantages of the F-4 , why you keep bleeding speed with turns, taking your time and distance and being more patient would made you win 90% of the times, you keep pulling the migs to a low level fight...why, i was here grinding my teeth ..lol. Get well Jon
but its even, they threat the mig the same way.
you guys fly the f-4 so poorly
Accept Jesus as your lord and savior ❤❤- I’m not a bot just spreading the gospel 😭😂.
Oh, you're still a bot... 🤣
100% a bot
Do operation BOLO
Greatest 'DCS'video ever seen