Is OCD Ego-dystonic?
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- čas přidán 12. 09. 2023
- Our incredibly helpful brains are throwing up the intrusive thoughts because they're trying to help us clean away the bad things so we can pursue the goals we've set. So it's useful to consider the goals we're choosing. If I believe I shouldn't have bad thoughts, it would only encourage the brain to throw up bad thoughts so I can clean them away and get that certainty and relief I'm chasing. Coaching is full currently but I'm doing an Instagram subscription channel as a more affordable alternative, with regular posts and livestreams for answering questions and sharing skills on making changes: / markwfreeman For working on recovery skills, grab my book, YOU ARE NOT A ROCK, wherever books are sold, like here on Amazon: bit.ly/youarenotarock (It's called THE MIND WORKOUT in the UK and Australia/New Zealand, DAS MIND-WORKOUT in Deutsch, ENTRENA TU MENTE en español) Travel mental health blog: www.themindfulfieldguide.com
PLEASE never stop making these videos . I can’t even describe the change your videos have bought into my life. You have literally saved a life. And i know you’ll help many other who suffered with OCD. Thankyou mark, sending best wishes 💜💜
Thank you for being you!
Thank you for the kind words!
His stuff is more useful than actual therapists, especially when you don't necessarily need a therapist for OCD since it is skills to carry on your own.
This video made me cry. I can’t even really explain why. Just the way you explain things is like no one else in this field.
I went about 10 years without an ocd relapse so I know it is possible to be very well - and that was without really doing any recovery.
I’ve been back in the bubble a few years now to varying degrees with a few different themes. Real event/false memory being my current most longest lasting - honestly I think it’s the boss mode of ocd. It’s that typical thing of ocd really had lost all its power with all the “what if I could do this, what if I could be that person” type themes because I truly just stopped caring and giving it energy, so instead it turned to my memories which, although I know people say you can’t compare themes, but as someone who’s had taboo themed ocd I really do feel real event just hits different.
Thank you for all you do x
Thank you, Becki! With compulsions around any kinds of events (real or imaginary or alpacas or whatevers), it can really help to keep the focus on our actions and what we give time and energy to. Then it doesn't matter what new or old topic the brain throws up, we're just going to do the actions we value in this moment.
Sometimes I fall into guilty of why having those thoughts, and playing a role of a detective trying to look for ways to get into the root of that thought and finally find the one to blame and this becomes in a cycle over and over again. There’s this second of a chance that I have to realize that I’m just getting into this game again .that second i value ! like the second it took me to open your video and feeling a bright way to face this. Thank you Mark. Your wisdom is truly appreciated
It's great you see the games the brain plays, Norma! The way you describe it--starting to see that brief second when we have a chance to change direction--is the same way it felt for me. And then we just keep on growing that space between us and the brain :)
I loved the analogy you used about ocd kinda being about cleaning thoughts away too... that helps a lot in making sense of the experience in a new light
Have funny leaving the brain cleaning for a different day!
I think that the desire to clean away thoughts often comes from a misconception on what thoughts really are. If you see thoughts as threats that are dangerous for your life then of course you want to clean them away. But if you see that they are just things the brain produces (in order to help us as Mark said) then there is no need to clean🤷♂️
Exactly. This is an understanding we can apply to any experience.
At first I started to get scared bc I have harm ocd. But I get what you mean. I’m so worried that people think I’m a horrible person, or that I’m a danger when I know I’m not that way at all. So my brain then says “what if you do something awful and you go to prison and everyone you know sees you on the news or social media and thinks ‘yep I knew he was crazy’, ‘I knew he was bound to hurt someone sometime what a POS”. That’s an interesting way to look at it.
Thank you Mark! It's been years i've recovered from intrusive thoughts and i owe you a lot, actually more than a lot.
It's great to hear you've taken these skills on and turned them into real actions. Enjoy the continued adventures ahead!
Wow, this was really helpful Mark. Thank you for your humor and encouragement!
Thanks! I'm glad it was helpful :)
I've never been diagnosed with OCD but thanks to you I learnt a lot about it during a very very rough time in my life. It's amazing to have you teach us these insights, even having been through these things it's not easy to articulate. Mental health is still very misunderstood
It's great to hear you're finding the videos useful and turning them into action.
Hi Mark! I can see that you are experimenting with new forms and ways of making these videos, I hope you are having fun with it :) I really appreciate what you do
Thank you! It is fun!
Great topic to discuss thanks again mark 🙏🏻
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“My brain was trying to help me pursue goals that I’d laid out for it.” OMG thank you for this line which I will carry with me moving forward. I know that many intrusive thoughts are egodystonic but there is a goal or desired self-concept that drives the response to them. And when I am having a flare up of symptoms and start unplugging everything in the house to prevent a fire, I can’t say that “I don’t want to die in a fire in the middle of the night” goes against my values. But the goal I’ve set of being sure I’m safe is conflicting with other things I’d like to do and think about that bring more meaning to my life.
It's great you're seeing how the machinery works!
Hi Mark! I’ve been a fan of your videos for years now. Thank you for what you have done for promoting better mental health.
I would just like to ask if you still offer the mental fitness 101 course? It says on your website that it’s not open for enrollment for some reason.
Thank you so much!
Have subscribed for a while but rarely engage sorry, as their is always "so much to do" or "so much to hide from" you get it. But was having a rough night during a rough patch and the title intrigued me. It was refreshing to hear this perspective and focus on identity as it is something I struggle to talk to my therapist about and only breifly discussed it with my psychiatrist.
I have expressed how trying to internally sever my 'self' from my thoughts as I'm meant to leaves me often confused and empty. Cheers for this vid, I will check out some others I've missed. 👍
Thanks for sharing that. It can be challenging to share about identity! It's great you're exploring ways to do that. I hope you find some useful supports in the videos and with your therapist.
Very educated person wow, you gave me an understanding no other person could give me, they way you articulate the organism is so deep it penetrates my perception and gives me new ways to look at the disorder:)
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Great video again.
Thank you!
You’re vids have really helped me. Ty
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Hi mark! Iv watched your videos on and off for years! I actually recovered from my ocd for the last 3 years. But few months ago had a massive relapse. I actually forgot i had ocd which then lead me back into the cycle! Anyway i was wondering if you knew much about when your inner dialogue gets all muddled up. You know when you start referring to yourself as a bad person in your mind. Things like that. For example ill be watching a video and think "ah man to bad im a bad person" snd then be like "but im not a bad person?" For me intrusive thoughts i get, obsessions i get. But i don't really understand the muddle of the mind OCD causes.
What you're describing are things I'd just see as common compulsions. With any compulsion, it starts with a judgment. Then we react to the judgments or the feelings it brings up. So it helped me to just generally learn to cut out the labeling I was doing in my head, or if it did pop up as a reflex, to just stop engaging with it. One thing I'd look at is whether you were attaching meaning to those labels when you liked them. That can be where the struggle emerges. Because if we attach meaning to break stuff when we like it, it's difficult not to believe in it when we don't like it. But it's all just random brain stuff. It's like attaching our identity to what the stomach is doing. One day it might be digesting well. Another day it might be throwing up noises and some pain. But we are not our stomach indigestion or our brain indigestion.
@3:00 This! I did so much of exactly this in the years before the big breakdown that made it obvious I was struggling with OCD. The number of things I felt I had to do before leaving my house took up more and more and more time (thing is... they all felt so "normal"). The compulsions you like are some of the hardest to leave behind! But ditching them also leads to some of the best progress
Yes! That's a great point you made about progress with making changes around those. I also noticed that changes around the stuff I liked really opened me up to the possibility that I could do things differently.
I do this with dates and numbers in my head. When trying to quit and start healthy and unhealthy habits.
It's great you notice that. It can be really useful to cut out compulsions like that
I guess it’s tricky as ultimately, as you said, it does go against our values, and of course, if a parent has thoughts of hurting their child, of course it’s going to really hurt that parent, but as you said, you just have to be willing to put yourself in those positions where shit could go wrong and relax those beliefs a little about how you would be condemned forever if you made ANY sort of mistake.
Better to TRY to do good, but be kind to yourself if you mess up in any way and try to do better next time than hold rigid rules that you can NEVER mess up.
Still gonna be scary for people though when they perhaps feee in a moment that they might hurt someone they love or something, but you’ve gotta stay put, aim to do good, but be willing for things to go wrong.
It is very useful to be kind to ourselves, with whatever is going on in our heads.
This makes a lot of sense Thank you for how you explain things I love it it makes sense because this is why my brain has now seemed to connect everything to OCD for example a number my brain will connect it to something bad & make me avoid different numbers and then I think that is my OCD then my brain says no what If I’m right and imagine how guilty you will feel if you select that item at that price that has that number in it & something bad happens to someone you love I will literally get a different brand that I don’t like as much or something because I’m avoiding it. Logically I try to tell myself it’s not true and I can’t seem to do that I can find moments of resolve very few then it finds something new. It is effecting my work too
Classic brain stuff!
I had a pretty bad "relapse" of ruminating on violent intrusive thoughts and your videos (and an increase in my medication lol) have been a godsend.
😁🙇♂️
Hi Mark, your videos have been very helpful for coming to grips with my relationship OCD. I have a question for you-
Recently, I’ve been dealing with compulsions (where I obsess over my partners past) in two ways. The first, I practice mindfulness and just try to experience discomfort and negative emotion without resorting to compulsive thinking to make it go away. This works pretty well.
The other, instead of trying to reassure myself, I instead imagine the worst case, most ridiculous scenario. Usually this makes me laugh a little because it’s so clearly not the truth. This works pretty well also. My question is, is this second approach technically a compulsion? I understand the crux of OCD is trying to find certainty, in a way I suppose it’s ruling out a possibility. On the other hand, it’s a little easier to do than the pure mindfulness approach, I wonder if this kind of technique is similar to ERP.
What do you think?
I find that technique useful. I share about it in my book. It's especially useful when we've already started engaging with the brain stuff. What could be useful to look at instead of you're on the hunt for compulsions, was checking for reassurance about it. ROCD generally involves a lot of checking. But OCD is never confined to a topic. It's a pattern. So you can easily switch from checking about the relationship to checking about recovery. It's the same pattern to get certainty so some bad thing doesn't happen in the future.
@@everybodyhasabrain Thanks Mark, I’ll bare that in mind!!
I've been watching you for years but this is the first time I've considered how naturally ocd can develop. You get obvious pleasure from *thing you identify with* and the brain then really wants to make sure that you keep getting that/don't lose it and compulsions develop.
It really struck a cord with where some of my compulsions have come from. I wonder why 'normal' things like cleaning the kitchen turn into that, and how we can prevent that?
EVERYTHING stems from the egos fear of death, so we find ways to feel in control, and that manifests in a million different ways. Nothing is more natural. Cleaning either in real life or in our heads is super common, we have to just keep focusing on what we want to do , certain proactive goals and actions, and take the uncomfortable feelings with us and not try to solve them because that is another compulsion that keeps them going. It’s paradoxical but if you want to get rid of something you have to be ok with it being there. We’re constantly teaching the brain what is important to us and by prioritizing getting rid of a compulsion, the brain will make sure to give us more of it. So we focus on healthy actions and values while allowing any thought or feeling, that’s the exercise we need to do for strengthening our mental fitness
To explore prevention, it helped me to look at goals and patterns of behavior. For example, if I want to write a book, and I actually want to write a book because I want people to say I'm a valuable deserving good person, and I only write a book when I have a good feeling, then feelings I label as bad will become very threatening. I'm pursuing a goal that's unhelpful (writing books to control what others think and get some validation is a recipe for disaster) AND I've made that goal dependent on avoiding "bad" feelings. So the brain needs to be on constant lookout for bad feelings because they'll prevent me from doing these magical thinking (book writing) compulsions.
@@everybodyhasabrain hmm I don't really know how to phrase this but what if I started out with a good intention, that 100% fit my values, and it was genuinely good, but other people didn't like it and attacked my decision. Then because I was proud of doing my decision despite these people, my brain starts to look for any case where I could be wrong, because I guess I fear the judgement and embarrassment. I know all the ERP things I can do here, and ultimately I have worked hard on accepting that fear, I just don't know how to avoid good intentions morphing like that.
@Deathhead68 Sorry, I don't understand how you see it as a good intention "morphing". If you're afraid of being judged by others and then the brain throws up fears of being judged, what's strange about that?
@@everybodyhasabrain basically I did something I think was good and took a lot of shit for it. I did it because I value it, and its important to me, nothing like the writing example where it was actually about validation or something unhealthy from the get-go.
So basically I started with this good intention but the more I had to defend it, the more I identified with it and now my brain seems to have a developed a 'what if I'm wrong?' fear.
Edit: I am accepting of the fear but I don't really know how I could have prevented the fear building in the first place.
Super 👍
Thank you 👍
Artesanal reassurance 😂 loved it.
The best kind!
@@everybodyhasabrainvery artesanal like bread in Mexico City 😂
Hey mark can you please suggest some books to gain knowledge about brain and other emotions like ego/self esteem/anger etc because i want to gain knowledge about human behaviour and other stuff bcs i think you can help me you got very practical knowledge 😅
I have a book that covers all of the skills I found helpful with recovery and building great mental health. It's called YOU ARE NOT A ROCK in the US bit.ly/youarenotarock and the UK version is called THE MIND WORKOUT
Nothing but ❤❤❤
❤️🙌
I have fears/thoughts that i could cause harm. Of course i only noticed the big ones like omg am i going to lose it and kill people, but in daily life i noticed how much i obsess on this. Like oop don't say that you could hurt them, oop i don't want to upset anyone so i will stay quiet. So yeah I'm seeing all these small things that of course just get bigger.
Thanks for sharing this, Emily. It's a perfect example and great you're seeing how those practices in daily life just grow into the big stuff that's more disturbing.
I've managed religious theme on pureO by ERP... But for nowon,
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Should I be just ready with a sword in my hand PREVENTING RESPONSES alone for any thought... or should I have to do the exposures again if ever trapped by any other theme going by ERP therapy or merely Response Prevention and not Exposure and R.P.would suffice??
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. Basically if i just prevent response from any anxiety caring meaningless thought and found myself ending up in another theme should I have to perform exposures too... Should I've to CALL THE THOUGHTS and then CUT THEM WITH SWORD(PREVENTING RESPO SES) or if I make this as a habit of PREVENTING RESPONSES then I wouldn't get any OCD theme??
I don't understand the question here but I approach things by first looking at what we want to grow and build. It's similar to learning how to swim. But it sounds like you're asking to find a special way to avoid drowning. That's nothing in what you mentioned about where you want to go and what you want to do. I'd start there instead
Bros speaking fact
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Is it possible for OCD to kick in and become worse when a person is under a lot of outside stress?
It's very natural that we react to stress with whatever control and safety behaviors we've learned over the years. The brain is like an uncertainty barometer. So it registers the lack of control around whatever is causing the stress, and gives you some things to control instead. Here's a video all about it: czcams.com/video/tt7BVYuuiBY/video.html
9:35 wooooooow
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Hi Mark, unrelated to the video but I have to ask as it's something I can't wrap my head around. You mentioned that a person doesn't have to base their actions on their thoughts and that they can just let them go and focus on the steps that lead to a happier life. My question is, if you can't use your thoughts for guidance how can you do anything? Because one way or another our actions are based on our thoughts so how can you act without listening to your thoughts?
I always took this to mean that you don't have to chase or judge or act on every single thought. You can choose which ones you pay attention to.
This is very related to this video! But it is not shocking to suggest we use something other than the stuff in our heads to do things. If you've ever learned a skill, like learning how to play the cello, it's unlikely you had to invent the cello and how to play it. Or if you've ever learned to bake cookies for the first time, you probably followed a recipe didn't just try to guess at it. Whenever we want to do something we haven't done before, we'll likely use some external supports outside of our own brains
@@everybodyhasabrain I see, but what exactly could be an external support? can you give an example? it still seems quite an abstract topic to me.
@@Deathhead68 yeah thats pretty much my understaning of it seems to be as well but I'm not fully sure if thats actually what it is.
@hammadisntreal A recipe is an external support. A set of values, like many religions have-- The Five Pillars, The Ten Commandments, The Eightfold Path, etc
I’ve recently starting saying in my head silly sentences like there could be dinosaurs outside or my dog can read my mind? I know they’re not true but they panic me why I have these random thoughts. Sometimes they’re so random!!
And yet, you even practiced reassuring yourself in your comment. It can really help to shift the focus to changing the compulsions. Explaining that you know they're not real is no different than explaining that you know you're not an alligator. Giving any time and energy to the debate at all implies it is debatable and there's something important about random brain indigestion. What if you can just leave the brain to throw up whatever it wants? You don't need to spend time and energy on it. But if you judge it as wrong, and the thoughts as some contamination that needs cleaning, then it's natural to keep finding wrong thoughts to clean!
@@everybodyhasabrain thank you so much for replying! It means the world to me! I’ve just ordered your book last night. I try to not pay them any attention, but I worry I’ll send myself crazy with these continuous thoughts and I end up creating more. It’s my biggest fear, going crazy. Thank you for the explanation. I work from home and have little distractions, but I’ll do my best today to practise that. Thank you so much for all your content!
Have fun doing the exercises in the book! Let me know if you have any questions as you go through them. It's very common to do compulsions around fears of losing control, but by putting the fear in charge of our actions, we're giving up control!
what if i wanna keep my ocd?
It's a totally available option. It is a lot of hard work to keep it, but there's no requirement to get rid of OCD. But if you want to ditch OCD, it's also a totally available option. That also involves a lot of hard work.
I have never heard of this word, but i totally get it
It's a fun word!
It’s great that you have a clean kitchen but I think you left your refrigerator running and you’d better go catch it… I know you think you double checked that you caught it already today but what if that was a memory of catching it from yesterday and not today. Youre gonna lose your refrigerator, and all your roommates will think youre really rude and inconsiderate :/
They can think that.
@@everybodyhasabrain Trying to keep that mindset
Here's a good ego dystonic or systonic one that is a nice trigger for many right now, racism and sexism. It's only really a problem though if you think that being racist or sexist is somehow unexpected or that you are perfect :D Happy panic attacks everyone.
I feel like OCD isn't ego-dystonic but your brain is as it's futile for your brain to give you nothing but ego-syntonic thoughts and only that
I would not agree with that
@@everybodyhasabrain what am I missing
Hello mark ! you say that the inner narration in brain is not useful and you also say that trying to stop a thought is also a compulsion......what do i do ? Sometimes those inner narrations and drama are good and entertain me and keep me happy....i value happiness... Imagine how frustrating it is to always police your inner narration of brain ....On one hand you say that checking your thoughts is compulsion...on other hand you say that letting your inner narrative in brain play is mindlessness......So what do I do ? Stop vibing to my brain stuff because it is not mindful ? It is exhausting to be mindful and police your brain stuff 24/7
That does sound exhausting! I don't recognize anything you're describing there. I definitely don't police my inner narration and I don't ever remember suggesting that. Your description of mindlessness is also not how I described mindlessness. It could be useful to consider there are different approaches than what you're proposing.
Like what do you define as mindless?... please help me....each time I feel like I am trying to stop a mental compulsions i definitely end up doing 10x more.....what am I doing wrong here..??
@@Dandnayak778 What is it you want to be giving your time and energy to? All you're writing about is things you don't want. But if you don't want them, why are you giving them so much of your time and asking other people to spend time on them? What is something you want to keep in your life that you could give attention to?
@@everybodyhasabrain you're really true....I think that asking questions like these could be just another way of covertly asking you for certainty/reassurance!! Like I need to be told what to do and what not to do .....Looks like I was depending on my brain for long and after cutting out ocd compulsions I'm gonna need a new engine 😅😅
I think it's time i switch to focus on building something instead of just cutting out compulsions