How to Invest EVs in Competitive Pokemon
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- čas přidán 17. 05. 2024
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0:00 Intro
0:26 252/252/4 is GOOD
0:56 Don't Make Unnecessarily Complicated Spreads
5:09 Consider Entry Hazard Damage
6:13 Be Very Specific with Speed EVs
8:47 Mechanics of Bulk & Bulky EV Investment
12:13 Summary
13:19 Outro
If you want to talk with me, get your teams rated, or you want a replay reviewed, you can contact me on Smogon (username Pinkacross), on Discord (tag: "pinkacross"), or by my gmail beigelordpkmn@gmail.com. You can also message me if you see me online on Pokemon Showdown, I'm always either on my Pinkacross account or Pinkacross Alt.
Credits to Nintendo for the music and original designs of the Pokemon present in the video.
Some things I forgot to mention:
- Healing rounds down as well so you DO want to EV within healing fraction intervals if running Leftovers / Toxic Orb / Grassy Terrain. For example, Gliscor runs 244 HP so it hits 352 HP, which is divisible by 8 (Poison Heal is 1/8 per turn).
- My disapproval of very specific spreads does NOT apply to Draft leagues! In Draft leagues you have a MUCH better idea of what you'll be facing and thus specific spreads made for specific calcs or situations are a lot better. The best draft player imo (pokeaimmd) often uses very complicated spreads that work very well.
- Very specific spreads are often more successful in older, more established generations since certain spreads have reliably performed well in very well-developed and slow-changing metagames with fewer pokemon and overall more predictable and common situations. Gen 3 OU is a good example of this.
- Lastly, I want to clarify that when I refer to "Chinese spreads" in this video I am referring to the the context I have seen it most commonly: complicated spreads for the sake of complexity with flimsy justifications. There are times (although rare in my opinion) when you want to invest in many stats. Furthermore my disapproval of this EVing is NOT an attack on Emvee or his channel, he's got a lot of great content.
I know that this channel focuses on gen 9, but for the sake of the general viewership, I feel it would've been good to mention that in very old, mature metagames, like gen 3 OU, there are a lot more cases in which highly specialized EV spreads are quite legit. The difference is that those spreads have been extensively tested within a slow-changing metagame, and aren't just some goofy nonsense that someone is theorymonning up in the shower and trying to apply to a highly dynamic current gen.
Thank you for addressing this, I honestly just click off of the video every time EMVEE ruins one of pokeaims videos cause he wants to put evs for the sake of hitting some “chinese” number. Emvee: “Oh look! We lived on 1HP! Chinese EV spreads!” Joey: “Yeah but we didn’t even kill back like we would’ve if we just had max attack!”
@@pigperfect9831showdown players when they realize it’s a game and you’re meant to have fun 🤯🤯🤯🤯
@@tazabstrakt2432
Ctc: “Ahhh that wouldn’t have lived without the Lord EVs!”
“Aww, you’re sweet”
Emvee: “Ahh that wouldn’t have lived without the Chinese EVs!
“Hello, Human Resources!?!”
Yo Pinkaboss, where do I go to submit my team for review/analysis? I need your opinion on the viability of my set. Im confident I have found "The One for Me" as far as team building is concerned
All those evs invested just for Avalugg to demolish them all
Yessir
This video was brought to my attention and it's a solid guide to EVing your Pokemon for the newer player. However I do think you misunderstand Chinese EV spreads which is a more advanced concept. Think of a master chef that puts ingredients into a pot. A pinch of this, a dash of that, and a sprinkle of something else. Notice how there's no precise measurements but it ends up being the most delicious thing ever. That's what authentic Chinese EV spreads are, as they are often intuition based and not designed to calculate for specific things. As a result, you find yourself either surviving in clutch situations where you would have otherwise been KO'd, or KOing a Pokemon you otherwise would not have been able to KO. There are ancient mystical powers derived from 333 HP, balanced defenses, and running EVs in 4-6 stats, and it has been proven useful a plethora of times. I do agree in most cases of 252/252 being used on pure offense teams because many offensive Pokemon don't need to focus on anything other than their offensive stat and speed, or maybe on stall where you want to lean to one defense or the other. But if you were running Chinese EV spreads on your teams you might have survived the encounter against my Mightyena team 😉
My man brought out the Ratatouille defense
Ah YOU were the Mightyena guy! I do recall that one, yes. I'm glad you enjoyed the video and I want to clarify that my general disapproval of complicated spreads is in no way an attack on you or your channel. On certain pokemon, investing in many stats is warranted but I believe it is almost always worse than running simpler spreads. I've watched some of your shared lives with aim, and I've seen your EVs allow pokemon to live hits they normally wouldn't. That being said, another good question to ask is-- would it have also lived that hit if you'd dumped all the EVs into HP rather than HP, Def, and SpDef? How many times has a pokemon died due to unique EVs? The hype of unexpected kills and survivals is what a person would naturally remember, but there may be many situations in which the EVs underperformed. Therefore I believe it is best to optimize a pokemon for the most possible situations (which usually leads to simpler spreads). Still, this part of the video is just my opinion and I don't think there's any objective data on which method is better! I also haven't heard the reasoning behind EVing to reach specific numbers for better fortunate, that is interesting! Perhaps at some point we could do a collab and discuss! :D Have a great day.
@@pinkacross2042 Yeee these are all good questions. Sometimes a little less HP and a little more Defense or Special Defense helps to tank things better (or more HP and a sprinkle of both Defense and Special Defense is optimal depending on the situation/Pokemon's overall base stats). If a Pokemon for example barely survives a physical attack with a little less HP and a little more Defense it often means if you went the extra HP over Defense instead it would result in marginally higher damage so you might not have survived it otherwise (this is assuming the Pokemon isn't heavily invested into both Def and Spdef and doesn't have an already high base HP relative to defenses). It's the thrill of using Chinese EV spreads with 4-6 stats filled and for these situations to happen that make them appealing. I believe for me they've worked more often than not even though I know it's common to only remember the hype moments. I've found you can win more often with them because the opponent is only calcing for standard EV spreads so they may stay in with something they shouldn't. Also I'm down to collab :) Maybe I can convert you to my ways... As Chef Gusteau always says, "anyone can cook" 👨🍳
As a 1v1 player, this comment resonates with my soul
Lord emvee. What are the magical EV numbers for Ubers? For regular goobers and da big boi Ubers. My 333 in Ubers is just 375-400+
Niche but very important detail: if you have a substitute mon with a base HP of 100+ in a metagame where chansey/blissey is common, also make your HP 404+ so your sub can live a seismic toss
Very good point! This can be extremely relevant at times!
for bulk you want the final values to be as close to a 1/1 ratio as possible, in the sense that the final speed value for a base 100 is 328 when fully invested. so for a mon with higher hp than def/spdef, you want to put it into those, and vice versa, until the uninvested hp is the same as the defensive stats, then you increase them both at the same time and the same rate.
ex;
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 144-171 (49.8 - 59.1%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO - No investment
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 144-171 (40.9 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO - max Hp no Spdef
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Ferrothorn: 117-138 (40.4 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO - max Spdef no Hp
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 84 SpD Ferrothorn: 135-159 (46.7 - 55%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO - equal Spdef/Hp values
with 252 - 84 = 168 EVs remaining. 168/2 to divide them equally among Hp and Spdef, leaves 84 per stat
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 84 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 126-148 (40.6 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO - Equal Hp and Spdef, Fully invested
As you can see, the mixed investment faired just as well as the max spdef set, while having more physical bulk on top of special bulk. this is why i think this is the optimal ratio of Hp to Def/Spdef
this is also the reason alomomola often runs 4 hp EVs and max both defense
edit,, just saw the final part of the vid you covered this. my b. ill leave this here because it is helpful for visualizing the optimizations
Great comment! These calcs do a very nice job of showing the HP * def/spdef calculation importance!
Basically, it boils down to
What do you want to kill?
What do you want to survive?
What do you want to outspeed and is it worth not going max max and losing speed ties?
I would absolutely love to see Emvee comment on this. Great video.
Glad you enjoyed it! Emvee is a very competent player and his wacky EVs are definitely done as a joke sometimes-- other times, complicated spreads definitely are justified!
your wish has been granted :)
"Chinese Ev sets" are better suited for double battles than singles. There's a reason Emvee is the only dude who does sets like that in singles. Because it works better to min max in singles. Like pink said, its more for the memes. Sometimes there is a purpose, but sometimes you see him put special attack evs on a mon with only phys attacks, like during his unova gym theme vids lmfao
You’re not supposed to just click the magic button?! No way!
Jokes aside that’s usually what I do, correct the nature of it needs correcting, unless I want something to be specifically bulky.
This video should be great help at getting better than that.
Good luck with your future EVing! :D
Now waiting for the Emvee x Pinkacross collab give the people what they want
It is probable! I'll reach out to him when I have a video idea, he seems open to a collab! :]
I love your videos because you're so good at casually integrating this information into your non-deep-dive videos- I don't think I learned anything here but that's cool because I already learned it across many "fixing my subs teams", etc vids
I appreciate that! :D
I'm too small brained to do math so I just 252/252/4 everything.
Not bad! It'll work well most of the time, but once you're ready to level up your EV game, you may want to consider implementing other things in this video!
What an incredibly well made video. This perfectly encapsulates the core ideas of EV distribution. Great work man
Thanks so much! :D
@@pinkacross2042 hahaha I didn’t think you’d see this. Just wanted to boost the video in the algorithm with a comment. Keep up the great work brother
helpful video, i’ll keep this in mind when teambuilding
Hyper specific EV spreads work better in past gens, they're genuinely good because the metagames have more solidifed, established interactions happening. Think of how many DPPt OU sets have type berries on them, have many sets are EV's to KO specific threats after Stealth Rock because of how the hazard metagame works in that gen (dedicated leads getting rocks, Rapid Spin only being on Starmie Claydol and Forretress, Pursuit Tyranitar eating all of them, etc.). There are many many factors that go into it but, generally, the older the metagame the more you can count on specific interactions to happen
Yo man, id like to say that ive recently gotten interested in gen 9 OU, used to play gen 9 national dex, however its always the same in there and wanted to switch it up, my friend said you would be a good inspiration and i honestly agree, your videos been helping me get better and push ladder and I thank you for that lmao, really cool videos dude!!
That's awesome, thanks so much for leaving this kind comment. :)
1v1 breaks all these rules. If you have a mon that you guaranteed beat by reaching a certain stat threshold that would otherwise give your team trouble, you want to meet that threshold. That's why 1v1 sample sets have so many weird EVs. This is just one of the reasons why I think 1v1 is so interesting.
True indeed, 1v1 EVing is crazy! It's a very fun format
Two uploads in one week? You treat us too well 💪
Glad you've enjoyed them! It won't be a regular thing as I'm typically far too busy irl, but I didn't want my one weekly upload to be an April Fool's joke.
You do a great job at explaining yourself, great job!
I appreciate that! :D
My fav tech for EVs is 8 EVs in speed. Obviously this only applies when you don't have 252 EVs (+nature prob), 0 EVs 0 IVs, etc.
But seeing how Smogon sample spreads usually throw the last 4 in a defensive stat, having 8 (take 4 from HP first to give yourself odd HP if applicable) in speed can give you absolute edge in speedties! And it's 8 EVs to counter people who throw the last 4 in Speed. The microscopic decrease in power/bulk (like fraction of a percent for fringe rolls to matter in the builder) matters far less than the speedties you might run into. Think of the max investment Bold defensive Gholdengo mirror matchup, etc.
Some other notes, having a Leftovers number is a noob trap most of the time, the bulk you lose by dropping to the last 16 divisive number isn't worth
Seen you in many a video as the opponent but never from you. Wonderful lesson.
Glad you enjoyed it! :D
I feel like this is somewhat relevant information that is worth adding.
At level 50 (VGC and cartridge) there are some oddities that come down to the IV's that screw stuff up depending on if the IV is an even or odd number:
Odd numbers gain stat points at 4, 12, 20, 28, 36, etc. up to 252 EV in said stat. At the points between those (for example 8) you don't get another stat point so you're better off with either 4 or 12 EV's
Even numbers gain stat points at 8, 16, 24, 32, 40, etc. up to 248 EV's, meaning that at level 50 an IV of 30 going to 252 EV's is a waste. At the points where an odd-numbered IV would get stat points you get nothing. When Hidden Power was a thing this was pretty important.
As I mostly use Smogon spreads, so I have to modify the EV spreads quite a bit just so that I'm not wasting EV's on 248 in a stat when it's no different than 244 EV's.
An example of this in action would be my Mega Houndoom set with Hidden Power Grass (6th gen), to make the most of the EV's I invested it like this
HP: 4
Attack: 0
Defense: 0
Special Attack: 248
Special Defense: 4
Speed: 252
It has a 0 IV in Attack and a 30 IV in Special Attack (everything else is a 31), so going 252 as mentioned above would be detrimental as I'd be wasting that instead of getting 1 extra Hit Point.
A more practical example would be how I had to modify my Rock Polish Primal Groundon (6th Gen) to actually not waste EV's at Level 50;
Smogon Spread: 168 HP / 252 Atk / 0 Def / 32 SpD / 56 Spe
Level 50 Spread: 164 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def / 36 SpD / 52 Spe
You can see the adjustments that had to be made not to waste any EV's.
For those who play on the games this is kind of important because most of the time your team is leveled down to Level 50, so spreads with anything that gets points in the even IV (aka IV of 30) are being wasted.
Interesting, I thought it was just intervals of 8 instead of 4! This is very thorough, fantastic comment!
Amazing video! Thank you
Glad you liked it! :D
You deserve more recognition
Why thank you! :D Your support is appreciated.
What about optimal leftovers or grassy terrain on ur team eith a rillaboom? If ur garrenteed terrain each game when rillabooms in isnt a mulitple of 16 optimal?
Yes this is a good point, healing rounds down as well so you DO want to EV within healing intervals if running Leftovers / Toxic Orb / Grassy Terrain. For example, Gliscor runs 244 HP so it hits 352 HP, which is divisible by 8 (Poison Heal is 1/8 per turn).
Great video as usual. Speed is different from the other stats because it's a "winner-take-all" stat in that it doesn't matter how fast/slow you are, just that you're faster than the mon across from you. For that reason, I usually like to add 4 or 8 IVs to "recommended" spreads for certain bulky pokemon, like defensive Gholdengo or CM Prima, where speed-creeping the typical Smogon recommended spread can help you avoid speed ties in mirror matches.
Haha I do this as well! I rarely use the exact spread that is common, I either go a little over or just abandon speed and go really bulky.
Your videos are getting better and better and I will just add that when your pokemon resists hazardsm you can afford to have HP EVs that are not odd.
Glad you've been liking the videos! :D And yes this is true most of the time, but with even HP at certain intervals even SR-resistant pokemon will take more damage than necessary (for example a ground-type with 400 HP would have HP divisible by 16 and thus take unecessary SR damage).
I can't tell you how long I've been waiting for a resource like this. I've been playing competitive since I was a kid and I've never been too keen on making very complex EV spreads for myself if they don't serve a specific purpose for the set, usually in relation to beast boost and quark drive/protosynthesis. I like making more complex EV spreads too, I just don't have a natural sense for the numbers themselves
Edit: when I say more complex, I mean for defensive mons. Offensive mons I feel less pressure to invest heavily in defense on because that naturally takes away from their potential damage if they're not so slow they'll never go first outside of trick room
Glad you liked it! :D
New viewer and showdowner, really appreciate the. Knowing that defense is calculated multiplicatively without much fluff really helps (makes sense, but... Monster Rancher 2 also exists in this world, so hearing it still helps).
I run assault vest a lot. I'm wondering if you have any strong opinions on investing in or away from stats that will commonly see in-battle boosts anyway. I'm sure it'd be a good amount of common sense and "well what are you trying to do with it?", but I need all the help I can get.
Glad you liked the video! As for assualt vest, it is a multiplier (1.5x) so it won't really change how you invest your EVs at all. It's not like "oh normally I'd invest in HP but since I'm running AV I'll invest in SpDef."
@@pinkacross2042 Gotcha -- I was thinking of it as -- "well this stat is getting multiplied so if I invest a bit more into it there will be more returns -- purely numerically (more 'Chinese EV spreads', not just pumping it all in). If I'm not mistaken with how it functions, I still might throw a few points in to take advantage of the item's synergy with investment, but even just knowing that's less standard is cool.
I appreciate the response! I'll stay tuned in when I have the time to improve.
@@danielshamlian2800 To put it simply-- your special defense is calculated by multiplying HP and SpDef. AV adds another 1.5x to that equation. So you want to still maximize hp-spdef ratio, just like you do normally.
Definitely agree that speed is the main stat where getting hyper specific can matter. If you are basing your team around certain forms of speed control and you already outspeed every common threat in the meta while that control is up and you don’t really gain anything while the control is down there’s not really a point in having full 256 except if you really are worried about facing the same team
Well said!
Im here to say ignore the haters. Your take on Chinese EVs is perfect. They’re super niche. You said nothing wrong. Chinese EVs are super dope in draft leagues when you can make a strong educated guess on what your opponent is bringing. But way worse when your opponent’s team could contain any combination and spread of 6/40+ mons. Unless you know a specific stat going around, there’s no point in trying to over complicate and overthink. Spot-on brudda. Definitely got a sub for this
Chinese Evs are much more relevant in Doubles, where you'll regularly be staring down both a physical and a special attacker at the same time, and bulk in general is just far more important.
Glad you enjoyed the video! I think most disagreements are arrising from misconceptions-- complicated spreads are not always bad, spreads where you add EVs that would be much better used elsewhere for specific calcs ARE bad.
Chinese ev spreads are suitable for draft battles,not for regular battles
Agreed entirely. Draft leagues, you have a MUCH better idea of what situations you may encounter so specific EVs are extremely useful.
I would love a video specifically on moveset selection. You've made several team building videos but that is more about the construction of the team as a whole. But I'm sometimes lost with which moves to use if there a bunch of viable options. Power whip or Horn Leech on Ogerpon? When do you choose the more accurate move, and when do you choose the more consistent one? Is coverage or utility better? Etc.
Noted, I'll write this video idea down! :]
Personally both types of EV spreads are great. I do a mix of both on m y teams. Most of the tine I think the simple 252/252/4 is good. However, certain times if I have a few problem pokemon that can punch holes into my team, I do want EV certain mons differently to fill in those holes. I do see specific EV spreads working if it matches the strat of your team. I used Archaludon shortly after its ban and I wanted a fast offensive spread. To help that out I added on sticky web Ribombee (the usual spread). Since the fastest most common pokemon in ubers Koraidon and Miraidon have 135 speed, I EVd Archaludon to outspeed both of them on webs (I did encounter bundle when using this team, but I covered for that too). If one of those 3 ubers wanted to run scarf, they can run scarf. I do usually run basic EV spreads, but I do find certain stuff like that working out too.
Yes, specific EVs (especially when it comes to speed on slower pokemon) can be very much worth investing thought and effort into!
meanwhile in my draft league
Primordial Pouch (Landorus-Therian) (M) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 248 HP / 100 Def / 96 SpA / 52 SpD / 12 Spe
Modest Nature
- Earth Power
- U-turn
- Stealth Rock
- Defog
In draft leagues you have a MUCH better idea of what you'll be up against so very specific EVing is a great idea most of the time!
this is just the average lc spread
Finally you have a good mic.
evil emvee may disappove but this is a fantastic video 👍
An vid about fpr spefic compex moves would be neat.
Wring out, subsutite, tera starstorm ect
Also odd even hp for life orb barb and stuff
To be honest I'm not sure there's a big audience for a video such as this but yes, you do want odd HP for Life Orb as wel! :]
@@pinkacross2042 ye that's fair
I said as these stuff are very obscure to a wide audience so it would be good to have higher reach to them.
Of course I never use life orb without magic guard
It never helped me when I got it in random battles lol
There’s been a lot of recent hubbub about this topic, so I’ll say as someone who appreciates and believes both MV and Pink give valid points: It’s contextual. Some metagames will offer some Pokemon to benefit more from complex spreads, as their stat spreads may offer more versatility to hit certain benchmarks, or they may need to live/KO certain meta threats. A perfect example is Landorus-T, one of the most custom mons, that runs very specific bulk benchmarks for utility sets as opposed to 252 max/max for straight up defense a lot of other mons would run. Some mons can also afford to run certain speed benchmarks below 252 to outspeed certain threats and cover more scenarios: 200 speed Skeledirge to outrun Adamant Gambit is an example.
252/252 is easier to pilot, and at the top level this is relevant because it ensures your Mons will have maximum reliability for a certain job assigned to them. But mons is a game all about info and flexibility, and if you want to disguise a different role for a mon, Chinese EV’s has a home.
I'm not advocating for 252/252/4 in most cases on defensive pokemon-- it's a good spread but generally on defensive pokemon there is something better. 200 speed skeledirge to outpace Gambit with max HP and the rest in def/spdef is not what I'd consider a "chinese spread." In this case you're not really giving anything significant up and being particular about speed is always important.
@@pinkacross2042 Oh, oops. I didn’t make my post very clear, speed benchmarks aren’t chinese by nature. I also didn’t realize that the video wasn’t strictly advocating for max/max on defensive mons, I heard that line pretty early on in the vid and latched onto it- that’s my b with regards to comprehension, apologies
@@Harmless_Music No worries! Yea that initial part was basically just to tell people that 252/252/4 is overall a DECENT spread and often optimal for offensive pokemon (and sometimes defensive pokemon) since a lot of people have the false perception that 252/252/4 makes you a noob.
@@pinkacross2042For sure! That makes sense. Thanks for the correction, very epic of you :]
I'll see if I can send a team in next vid you do, it's not a particularly meta OU team but I'm curious what you think regardless lul
@@Harmless_Music Absolutely, I look forward to seeing your team! :]
I just want to add something as a high elo natdex gen 8 player:
You should only do Chinese evs when youre absolutely sure it wont affect other matchups. My mega rayquaza can lose some speed evs and still outspeed everything below and yveltal which was what I specifically needed. I wouldve never went below outspeeding maxspeed yveltal because that wouldve completly changed my team. Point is, i knew what i was doing after ALOT of experience and i knew it would benefit my team and thats what you should also do. Except for my groudon, which was evd to live another groudons precipice blade but still Ohko back if its offensive +speed, everyone was 252/252/4 as its mostly the best.
Nicely put! And as you noted, it also helps to have experience in the tier when making more complicated spreads.
I’ve recently built a team that had Rillaboom, and some bulky partners, like Ting-Lu and Suicune (it was mostly for fun and to mess around with Cune a bit). I specifically remember giving Ting-Lu HP investment divisible by 16 so it could maximize Leftovers and grassy Terrain recovery, dumping the remaining points on Defense. The numbers divisible by 16 are all even if I recall correctly. Should I prioritize Leftovers recovery, or should I prioritize hazard damage when doing those kinds of EVs?
for mons like ting lu,id say go for more lefti recovery
Great question! I would say you generally want to optimize healing from leftovers on a pokemon like Ting-Lu, especially since it resists Stealth Rock. Ting-Lu also often stays in for many turns at a time. That being said, if a pokemon switches in and out a lot and your team doesn't have great hazard control, it's probably best to EV for hazards.
@@pinkacross2042 ty very much, Pinkacross!
At 6:50 is that Gliscor at an even number for HP for the opposite reason of spikes, since poison heal is a percentage you don’t want to round down?
Yes that is exactly it!
For physical attackers: 252 attack 252 speed
For special attackers: 252 spa 252 speed
These pex sets are heat 🔥🔥🔥
Again, interesting to see the contrast been current gen and older gens when it comes to concrete evs/situations. Not sure if its feasible but maybe a video discussing the different emphasis/skills needed (prob not the latter) between the two with someone like bkc maybe? A man can dream
I'd say the general idea is that older generations are more established and therefore more predictable, making EVing for specific situations more beneficial. That being said, a lot of oldgen EVing is exaclty what I recommended in this video-- a bit of HP for a specific hit, BUT the HP is good for a bunch of random stuff as well. Even in old generations it is rare to invest in a previously unusual stat for a specific situation. I'm certainly open to collaborating with BKC in the future, he seems like a super cool and knowledgeable guy!
Do you believe that EVing for specific occasions can be useful when in a more guaranteed MU? I was doing specific EV Calcs during a Draft League I was playing in since I could feasibly assume what people were gonna do from a team to team basis. Is it correct to exact EV there or would it be better to just do more basic spreads?
Yes, during a draft league you ABSOLUTELY want very specific spreads-- I should have mentioned this in the video.
Chinese magic number EVs slander, Emvee is in shambles lol.
Complicated EV spreads are sometimes good-- just usually not, and only with good reason.
On the opposing side to hazard HP evs, you have proc HP evs. If you're doing something like sub+salac, belly drum+sitrus, or unburden+berry, you need to have your HP divisible by 4 or 2, otherwise the item won't proc.
I've seen way too many belly drum Azumarills, Linoones and such that had odd HP and didn't proc the berry, leading to instant death the next turn. (one of them might've been mine but we don't talk about it)
Oh yea I've been there haha, this is a good point!
With the hazards damage/healing rounding down and having your HP stat being an odd number. On an offensive pokemon that’s holding heavy duty boots, such as a Kyurem or non-Morning Sun Volcarona. Would it be better to put the extra 4 EVs into HP and have an even number HP stat? Since you’re never taking SR/Spikes damage but you’re always gonna take a direct damage attack and have no healing moves.
Thanks for such detailed video!
If Knock Off didn't exist, absolutely it would be OK to have even HP. That being said, you could get with hit with a Knock Off or Trick and it's just not worth the tiny added bulk of 4 HP to risk having fewer entries.
Thank you!
I use a meowscarada max hp max speed for the sole purpos of killing king gambit the hp allows it to survive a +2 sucker punch with max overlord and can ko in return with low kick triple axle or play rough depending on the tera and it also has u turn for forcing tera
That is a creative solution, but I would advise against this set, it will probably be worse in more situations. If this is the Kingambit answer your team is relying on, it's probably better to rebuild or restructure.
Be giving my pokemon
252
Def spd negating my foes ev investment.
I might do 132 or stuff if I need speed or attack.
Rarely for hp as I enjoy high hp pokemon
I give my last to hp or spa
252 defense
Question that might sound stupid, but why do you put the 4 EV in 252/252/4 spread in def or spd and not in hp if hp is used in 2 calcs ?
Often pokemon with 4 EVs in HP will turn out to have an even HP stat, making them take more from hazards. The Kyurem EV spread I reviewed is a great example of this.
Relevant only to ingame lvl 50 battles, sometimes its better to drop 8evs from a single maxed stat and split it to 2 other uninvested stats.
At lvl 50, 4evs = 1 stat, but so does 8.
Intervals of 4 EVs won't do anything at level 50-- only 8 will, I'm quite sure.
6:42 i see here that gliscors health IS in fact divisible by 4. is that optimizing for toxic orb/poison heal recovery, over optimizing for rocks damage?
i have been answered by the pinned comment. thank you. for alorithmic posterity this post remains, with one additional comment underneath, by me
Why thank you! :D
In singles i pretty much always do the most simple evs in vgc though calcing is really important
Yes I've heard this-- perhaps the shorter nature of VGC games leads to more predictable calcs occurring? Not sure.
Switching is less coming, games are faster pace, and the meta game tends to be more predictable. For instance, with the new regulation coming out, I was considering a calyrex shadow team, he seems to be one of the strongest restricted and I was looking at a tera ghost choice specs set. First thing I did was open the calc and see about EVing a tera ghost calyrex to survive various sucker punches. Because losing your restricted mon to an urshifu sucker punch sucks.
@@dakodastevens8972 Great example, thanks! :]
Another reason why VGC EVs for specific calcs much more often is because you don't switch into attacks as often and passive damage is not as dominant, so being able to take a specific attack is much more likely to come up and is usually game changing. The meta also tends to be extremely centralized compared to Smogon metas due to the lack of bans, so calcing for matchups against certain meta threats is more reliable and even more important.
@@mighark54 yeah exactly and common interactions happen alot more because of the centralization. For example by the end of reg f i woild always go 76 attack 188 speed jolly water pon so that i would always outspeed timid lando i and one shot it if didnt tera
Hey, pinkacross. Do you have a checklist for team building balance teams, I always feel so lost when I tried to team build.
Yes, I have a video for this! It's called "10 things EVERY Gen 9 Team Needs" or something like that, it's in my "Teambuilding Guides" playlist
@@pinkacross2042 bet
One of the other reasons I love gen 3 OU. So many EV spreads are trying to hit thresholds rather than just go all out.
All metas become like this once they are figured out
W video
Pls use this strategy
Hitmonlee with liechi berry
Endure
Reversal strat
I've seen this, I may try it in the future!
i like to deduct some speed EVs from my zamazena to around 385 so i can invest into spedef. only thing i fear is dragapult, and i don outspeed regardless.
In natdex i always ev my zamazenta to outspeed jolly max speed mega lopunny and put the remaining evs to attack and hp
That seems solid!
@NorbertnahumPlatzer body press? Why would i run body press on my choice band zam
@NorbertnahumPlatzer and i want to outspeed it since mega lopunny is pretty fast so being faster than mega lopunny allows for zam to outspeed most pokemon it wants to outspeed and if i were to be slower than mega lopunny than zam would need to tank both a fake out and a close combat
@NorbertnahumPlatzer the reason why fake out +cc is so strong when you get outspeed is that mega lopunny is a revenge killer that means that you are not always at a decent hp infact choice band zam has to switch in and out alot since it is choice locked into a move so it always takes stealth rock and some more chip if there is spikes up
@NorbertnahumPlatzer also do you like galarian darmanitan or kingambit more?
it's very interesting that in vgc or doubles battles the chinese EV spreads are such a common thing idk the reason of it but when I tried to play doubles it was a pain to teambuild and gave up with the format entirely 🙄
Doubles is certainly a different beast-- from what I've heard, VGC has situations that are a lot more likely to occur than we do in OU, due to lack of switching, shorter games, and some very common threats. This leads to specialized EVs being more beneficial than in singles.
is it more efficient to run 252/252 hp and def on alo or 252/252 def and spdef on alo? like which one gives you the most mileage out of ur evs?
252 spdef is almost a 50% boost to special bulk compared to 0 spdef
while 252 HP is around a 13% boost to overall bulk
So SpDef is better for mixed bulk for Alomomola, and you should only go HP if you don't care about it taking special hits (like if you have a Blissey to take them instead)
Very well put by @fayestra2486! You definitely get more mileage with 252 def and 252 spdef, but if you have a Blissey or some other incredible Special wall I'd rather just invest into HP and Def to maximize physical bulk.
@AdamEvreuklovic Yeah they won't become a mixed wall by investing in their lower defense, but that's not the point. The point is that they aren't automatically forced to switch out by any attacker that hits their weaker defense, so your positioning is more flexible and you aren't always funneled into a predictable switch to another wall. Most of the time, Blissey runs physical defense, and it's never the best option to take physical hits, but it can at least take some neutral hits from things that aren't dedicated wallbreakers or sweepers. The difference between being forced out by just strong physical attackers and being forced out by _any and all_ physical attackers can be huge, and worth a lot more than overkill HP and SpDef on a mon that barely takes anything from special attackers to begin with.
Should Zamazenta with sub and leftovers be even or odd HP? This has always puzzled me
Either works, it's not a significant deal with Zamazenta. Probably even would be a little bit better.
Crazy how different singles is to doubles in EV spreads
Doubles is way shorter than singles so its not bad to have specific spreads
@@oscen335 True indeed!
pls take a look here sir :
Throne (Kingambit) (M) @ Lum Berry
Ability: Supreme Overlord
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Kowtow Cleave
- Iron Head
- Sucker Punch
Gekkoga (Greninja-Ash) (M) @ Loaded Dice
Ability: Battle Bond
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Water Shuriken
- Ice Beam
- Grass Knot
- Dark Pulse
ScaryFace (Basculegion) (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Swift Swim
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Wave Crash
- Flip Turn
- Phantom Force
- Head Smash
Fish (Pelipper) (F) @ Damp Rock
Ability: Drizzle
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Modest Nature
- Weather Ball
- U-turn
- Hurricane
- Roost
Infrastructure (Weezing-Galar) (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Neutralizing Gas
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 232 Def / 24 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Haze
- Strange Steam
- Defog
Slowking (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Thunder Wave
- Slack Off
- Chilly Reception
Thanks for sharing! My main concern is your Raging Bolt matchup, which to be frank is absolutely abysmal. Perhaps replace Weezing with Iron Treads.
@@pinkacross2042 ig you are i am really struggling to electric moves right now
im always scared of ev training on my BE cartridge. lose track of your evs and theres no undoing it
tl;dr for the love of god if you're gonna do a funky EV spread make sure you have a more specific reason than "it'll make it a little bulkier" and that that specific reason isn't "i need to tank +4 luvdisc hydro pump"
Why do 252 atk/spa 252 spe sets usually have 4 spd instead of 4 def or 4 hp
4 def and 4 spdef are interchangeable but the reason they don't run 4 hp is because it often leads to more hazard damage being taken, since most pokemon with 4 hp EVs invested will have even HP.
idk why you've appeared on the feed but goddamn i love your name. heracross top 5 all time, immaculate shiny. nice guide too.
Thanks so much! Glad you enjoyed the video! :D
I would argue though, that in terms of overall team building, chinese spreads are absolutely required. Not necessarily on every mon, but in the pursuit of 'the perfect team' you'd ideally ev your mon to deal with specific things. Like, knowing you're going to have to switch x mon into y threat which your team doesn't specifically deal with, so eving it to take 49% max roll (if its slower) allowing it to switch in, take another hit and ko/cripple in return and so on. Chinese spreads shouldn't be for situations that you just throw on any team, but specific or your teams needs. Even in the tusk situation, that only makes sense if you don't have a corviknight for example that can't deal with glimmora for little to no cost, free switch in etc, granted they'd get hazards cos of glimms ability but you get the point
The thing is that the “perfect team” shouldn’t have to rely on Chinese evs to deal with a threat. They should be well rounded enough to have multiple options to deal with threats.
For example I’ve been using webs in gen 9 UU. Greninja is a massive threat to my team because if it gets a kill, battle bond undoes the sticky web debuff and it then outspeeds and threatens to ohko my entire team. Should I invest enough bulk into one of my offensive threats to live Greninja’s attack and then ohko back?
What I did was I have a lot of priority on my team (3 out of 6). I can take advantage of the self inflicted damage from life orb Greninja generally runs to chip it into range where 2 of my priority would kill.
Or I considered replacing one of my Pokémon with Azumarill, but not just because it’s a gren check but because it’s belly drum sets help me break physical walls like sinis and pecha I struggle with.
In both of these cases I’m not using Chinese EVs. I’m either keeping all my Pokémon at full power by playing smartly or I’m using a different Pokémon, but which is still at full power as opposed a Pokémon overall weakened by Chinese evs.
Let’s say I instead opted to run a Pokémon with Chinese EVs to always live Lo gren’a surf after rocks and be able to always ohko it in return. What if they clicked hydro pump instead? It’s not common but it’s not unreasonable. What if rocks and spikes are down? What if they click Tera water?…I just lose don’t I? It’s going to Ohko the rest of my team after that.
I could invest more bulk evs to handle these situations (if that’s even possible) but I’m weakening my Pokémon so much. It might not even ohko in return anymore.
Even in this relatively simple situation where I’m prepping for just 1 Pokémon with Chinese EVs it’s not practical. If my team struggles so heavily into a threat, I either need to reevaluate and change the team, or figure out ways to take it from “auto game loss” to “manageable”
Tldr: A perfect team that relies on Chinese EVs to handle many threats, isn’t a perfect team but a team crutching on suboptimal EVs
@@tempestgreen1125 You simply can't cover the whole meta with 6 mon using standard sets. Maybe UU theres a solution, but not in OU - especially with tera. Your best bet is outplaying alongside optimised EV sets. This is the thing, the standard 252/252 for offensive mon, isn't optimised. Its generic, which, sure it works. But don't pretend it is optimised, unless we're talking about something like deo-A which has such little bulk there is genuinely 0 reason to ever not run 252/252 (yes i know it runs mixed, and doesnt run 252/252 but most offensive mon aren't mixed I wanted the frailty for the example). The only way to actually solve ou is to solve it in a vacuum and then play towards that vacuum. Which doesn't happen, rng/outplays/mistakes, but theres typically always a play you should make and a play you shouldn't make, sometimes multiple and thats where the skill comes in as well.
The problem with most chinese ev sets is that people don't know why they're run. Pinkas example for tusk to live an energy ball, if you don't know that, completely useless, if you do know that, then you know that staying in, taking the energy ball and killing back is likely the optimal play to prevent hazards.
@@HyperspaceLKz you can absolutely build a team that covers the entire meta. Top level building isn’t building a team that checks and beats every single Pokémon, it’s about building a team which gives you decent matchups into everything. At the end of the day, pokemon is a game you play. You don’t take Pokémon and match them 1 for 1 into opposing Pokémon, you take the tools you have and use them to win
I agree that more specially tailored are helpful for a team, but I don't see how it must be "chinese" i.e., invested in 4-6 stats and designed for particular calcs. I could see throwing more EVs into HP to get that 49% role you're talking about, but in the case that you do something like remove all of a pokemon's HP investment and shift it to SpDef so it takes 49% instead of 52% from a hit... that's not a good decision. Furthermore, there certainly is no perfect team-- any team must be prepared for many unexpected, threatening situations. And in those situations, I'd rather have a generally good spread than a oddly-tailored spread that will let me down when not facing the threat the spread was tailored for.
@@pinkacross2042 ultimately, any spread you go with is gonna have pros and cons, its about giving your team the most outs, so to speak. As for chinese spreads being 4-6 stats invested, thats maybe my bad on definition/understanding. I've just always seen them as specifically made spreads, not necessarily needing to hit 4-6 stats with evs in. Pokemon is a game with a lot of variables, controllable and uncontrollable, in your example, chucking evs into spdef for the 49% means you're weaker on the phys side hence your opinion its not a good decision, but in your team comp that mon might not have to take physical hits, and certainly none that would particularly care about the lost evs. Its a balance, as, 70% rolls for example, you don't necessarily need that 20% vs a specific thing you only need it to do 51 min as its still a 2hko and thats the point. They're not something that need to be looked at for 1 specific instance either, but over a range of instances, because yes, 70% down to 51% in one instance is negligible, its still a 2hko (again, theres chip so maybe it does factor in as well) what is the opportunity cost?
TLDR; EVS are all about minmaxing opportunity - chances are optimised spreads will do that better, but you ultimately have to know why you've ev'd the mon like that to actually take advantage. If you pick up a random RMT with optimised EVs you're more than likely going to be better off running standard sets instead. Optimised > Unoptimised, but knowledge is power.
Put 4 evs onto "min speed" Glowking's speed and run Chilly Rec + Imprison
you could also run non-zero speed IVs for free in that case :)
How dare you question lord EVs
12:52 I’m on the floor, please
;)
pinkacross try not to put out a banger video challenge (100% failrate)
:D
The best argument i have against this video is a mono water + urshifu dark team from vgc s/s who won a huge tournament where every pokemon had hyperspecific ev. A seaking that lived cb grassy glide rillaboom. A lapras that outspeeded -1 togekiss(urshifu had scary face and the trainer wanted to outspeed of togekiss used max airstream). But the urshifu was 252/252 because it was just ment to hit fast and hard
But all this was done with purpose i have beef with emvee putting random ass numbers in random places for no real reason
Or light clay regieleki that was living everything behind a screen
As I did say in the video, this does not apply to VGC for a variety of reasons I'm not qualified to explain as I don't know much about VGC. That being said I do know a lot of top level VGC players do run complicated spreads consistently.
@AdamEvreuklovic he answered me himself you can stop glazing
ponkacross, i just wet the bed
How I invest EVs: Smogon sets!
They do work pretty well generally!
Of course, if you're using Avalugg, you don't even need EVs.
True, Avalugg is a free win either way
If you think Chinese spreads are EVing for random calcs, the real problem is that you don’t know what Chinese spreads are…
I understand full well what Chinese spreads are. There are times in which complicated EV spreads are definitely warranted, and I go over that (I'd recommend watching the rest of the video), but complex EV spreads for the sake of complexity have become trendy in recent years and I've seen it on many viewer team submissions. These sets are often labelled as "chinese" which has become synonymous with complex spreads with EVs everywhere. This is what I'm attempting to counter.
What are chinese spreads the? Explain it to me so i can understand it please
@@PeterPan-ue8omfrom my understanding it’s a thing the Pokemon CZcamsr Emvee does a lot and is often a meme on his channel. It’s just evs on every stat basically
Well it was basically said.
There were Chinese players that put EV in stats for very specific scenarios.
They got popularized through Emvee who put random EV in random stats just for the hell of it, sometimes just to reach nice looking numbers, and then called them Chinese EV spreads.
@@VenummmIt's putting EV's in stats to account for very specific scenarios often at the detriment of the pokemons effectiveness outside of those scenarios.
We need videos on how to improve at higher elos. I cannot go beyond 1600 and can't find any way to help me out.
Well, first you need to identify your weakest aspect. Is it your teambuilding? Is it your ability to form a game plan and stick to it in a match? Is it your matchup knowledge? Are you remaining calm and patient? Etc.
This EVing video will specifically help aspiring teambuilders.
(I've found that most 1600s players tend to predict too often. They often expect too much and end up throwing away their win condition. Watching high elo players will show that they often go for a middle ground play which generally covers the most options, rather than expecting one specific prediction.)
I've made a video called "I've Hit Rank 1 Dozens of Times. Here's How." that explains laddering tips, and I'll be making other battling guides in the future!
skill issue
Also 1600s often times use teams that have some glaring flaws. Even if youre a competent/good player its hard to win battles when your team is lacking.@@delibirdite
PINKACROSS X EMVEE COLLAB RIGHT NOW :0000000
I'd certainly be up to it and he seems open as well! I'll try to think of something we can do together! Any ideas?
Do a "weather to the top " series where you climb up the ladder using only weather teams. Rain, Hail , Sand , Sun, you can use multiple teams for every weather, maybe incorporating some heat mons here and there too. It would be dope @@pinkacross2042
I play gen 2 OU so i can just put everything to max, ezpz 😎
That does make things simpler, yes lol
I honestly don't know anything about EVs, I just click the magic button except for Iron Valiant, with just enough attack EVs to nuke Blissey with Close Combat after Tera Fighting
The magic button generally works pretty well, but for great spreads you've got to make your own usually! :]
What does chinese spread mean? Never come across this term and where did it come from lmao
There is no exact definition, but what it means to most people is just an extremely complicated spread (often EVs invested in 5-6 stats).
Bro has beef with Lord Emvee😭
This is not the case! He seems like a cool guy overall, although I disagree with parts of his EVing philosophy.
Jumppoints
I don’t agree with the Chinese EV take at all. If anyone emvee himself has shown the power of eving for certain situations. Does it come in to play all the time? No but you can’t rule out the possibility of it happening especially if you have to take account that your team may struggle against whatever you’re trying to account for. Just my opinion tho
Emvee highlights when the chinese EVs work-- but how many times do they NOT work? He's not going to be like "Yo guys we just did 5% less due to taking EVs out of attack which could be crucial later due to SR damage!" It's going to be more like "Woah we lived on 1% chinese Evs go crazy!" This is not a criticism of Emvee, it makes sense to be hyped when the EVs worked out, but the fact that they sometimes help Emvee is FAR from being real evidence of them working well. Changing a pokemon's EV spread from what is typical to be better suited against a threat is not a problem-- but having to run a mostly non optimal spread for a specific difficult matchup is often grounds to rebuild. If you're counting on slight EV investment to make a matchup better... it will make it a LITTLE better, but it's not something to rely on.
I think it’s worth nothing this applies to modern gens more. Older gens that have a much smaller pool of pokemon and are more established give u a much higher reward for EVing for certain calcs and it is worth doing things like EVing ur gen 3 gengar to live a tyranitar pursuit
Very correct and well-put! The more established generations do often reward more specific spreads more. The HP also helps Gengar out in other situations too, so it's not exclusively for pursuit. The much lower power level of gen 3 left Gengar able to actually tank hits decently from some of the gen 3 walls.
@@pinkacross2042 that’s true, most special attackers have roughly 100 spa and their attacks are the same base power so often if u ev yourself to live one attack you’ll inadvertently ev urself for a lot of other hits
Wdym, that Dragapult in the Thumbnail is goated and also didn't u said Grumpig was going to be the next vidéo i'll dislike 👎 like and Edgar Main ik Brawl Stars ( #Irony )
I came to the comments straight from the thumbnail to say it was anti-Emvee but he’s already here in the comments so guess I’m not needed here
Your videos are great btw Pinkacross I’m just here to talk rubbish
"Chinese spreads" 😭💀🙏
And then you see that high level competitive ladder and tournament DOES make very complicated EV spreads. Both in singles and VGC.
www.pikalytics.com/pokedex/gen9ou/roaring%20moon You are empirically incorrect. Check this out. Filter by 1825+ Elo. You'll see that the vast majority of spreads run are simple, invested fully in 2 or 3 stats. VGC is different so I've heard, but I made no claims about VGC in this video.
And just keep in mind that optimizing for speed tier doesn't _really_ count as an identification for Chinese EV spreads, as that has been around way before them
Dont show this to Lord Emvee
He's seen it lol
@@pinkacross2042 haha awesome!
Draft format enters the chat
Haha yes draft leagues definitely SHOULD use very specific spreads for very specific situations, this video is more focused on ladder-- I probably should have made that more clear.
@@pinkacross2042 252/252 ev spreads are cracked in draft format because everyone plays mind games for guessing their opponents ev spreads and then 252/252 goes crazy @ mega venusaur
Thank u for the call out on “Chinese” spreads. I hate all of Emvee’s sets. “What if we made the offensive Pokemon weaker to hit 333 on hp”. Watching him team build with Joey is like nails on a chalkboard
Yet Emvee wins with them. Hate all you want but you have to admit they work :P
His dishes are too spicy for you
If it ain't from China I'm not using it
I strongly disagree with the part about complicated spreads. The higher level you go and the more a metagame settles, the bigger the advantage in hitting these benchmarks becomes. 252/252 assumes a 1 vs all mentality, like you don't know what you're gonna face so you might as well max out the best stats. In metagames where you have quite a good idea of what you'll be facing you'll see many top players use quite unique ev spreads, check for instance some high-ranked teams from gen 3 ou, 1v1 or vgc near the end of a format
Older and more established generations reward specific EVing more, but even they rarely go beyond investing additional HP to live certain hits or speed creeping. Giving up a few EVs for defense or spdef for a relevant calc isn't a big issue, but losing massive amounts of EVs for particular situations is rarely a successful strategy even in older generations.
only place you should be EVing for overly specific scenarios is in draft
Yes this is very true, specific EVs in draft are essential!