'Sins of the Father' Flawlessly Executed One Critical Thing
Vložit
- čas přidán 10. 09. 2024
- ‼️ Get FULL ACCESS to our entire Star Trek journey over on Patreon - / targetaudience ‼️
The Target Audience are watching Star Trek: The Next Generation for the first time! Today we discuss season 3 episode 17 - Sins of the Father
Become a Crew Member! - / @targetaudience
Special thanks to @OpenMawProductions for his graphics, backgrounds, overlays & much more!
Klingaroo court?
Klingon lifespan is unknown, because they always *DIE GLORIOUSLY ON THE FIELD OF BATTLE*
Don't bring that up with Klag. 😂
Similar to humans (around 130-150yrs)
Just a little longer than humans; the average lifespan for humans is quoted as 120 years
Q’uapla!
“On Staaaaaaaaar Trek… The Next Generation.” So much nostalgia ❤
That announcer's voice will forever be my favorite.
Yep, voice totally takes me back to childhood, 9pm on a summer night (they ran these promos in syndication in my area).
Ah yes the House of Duras, such a nice family.
No family holds a barbecue like Duras.
Can't wait for The Reunion.
Worf didn't grow up with Klingons. His parents were murdered & he was raised by humans. So everything he knows about Klingons & honor is an idealized version of them. Here we see the cold reality that Klingons are not always about honor. Worf is ALL about being a warrior of honor. That is who he is, and his whole identity. Now, he must be accept his father, himself, & his entire family for many generations to be branded as traitors. Exiled as social lepers. Untouchables. Outcasts rejected by society for having no honor just to keep the empire from plunging into civil war. This to a man who values honor above all else, even his own life. So you must understand to Worf, what they did was far worse than kill him.
This warrior cannot vanquish his enemy (traitors who helped kill his parents), and he has condemned his family for generations to be labeled as traitors with no honor. All to save millions of lives - ironically a very honorable thing to do. In taking this dishonor he shows what real honor looks like.
"Do not forget what he does here today."
Well if a black guy is raised in China he's gonna speak Chinese and have a Chinese accent, not African or American traits. Same if a Chinese guy is raised in Russia, he won't be having cultural traits of China. So since Worf was raised by Earthlings and not Klingon culture and yet he acts exactly like the typical Kllingon still, then we must derive that these traits are in his DNA, like how a dog will still bark and not meow if it's raised by cats. His whole "I must die in glory" thing and the "You insult my honor!!" etc etc is as if he was raised in Klingon culture. But if the facts are that he was not raised at all in Klingon culture then all these Klingon attitudes in him must be inane and built in genetically, the dog will still bark and not meow in his adopted cat family.
Yet when we look at Alexander, his son, he doesn't seem to have such genetic automation built in him much at all.
IMO I think the whole Earth parents is a mistake in writing, doesn't make sense why Worf is so Klingon then. Chinese people will not act like Chinese culture if he was raised in Russia, so if it's genetics built in then why is Alexander immune? Whatever, Picard is a Frenchman with a British accent so clearly there's a pattern with the poor writing in these aspects lol
Now you realize that Klingon society is only projected to outsiders as all about honor and duty and battle, when in reality, it's actually a politically layered system where keeping the status quo(nos) is actually more important than truth and honor.
This episode won an Emmy for art direction - Klingon homeworld FTW.
They fit a lot into one TV episode
Did that with "Yesterday's Enterprise," too.
Always felt like a movie. Pacing, editing and all.
TNG is peak Trek.
I'll be honest. I'll never correct anyone who says this, it's a totally valid opinion. Honestly I think I'll accept any answer that's TOS - VOY, any of those are great. Different strokes and all that.
But I stand by DS9 being peak trek. And I'll fight on that hill until I die.
I love my DS9. "...It`s easy being a saint in paradise!"
I call it shared first place with DS9.
While these last three episode stand with any era of Trek, the bangers to duds ratio really peaks in season five or six of Deep Space 9
Yes, with the exception of Season 7 DS9 imo
Speaking of the matte painting, if you pay attention and look at the big windows of the main pyramid, you will see they have people moving around in there.
This is an instance of when your assessment of an episode 100% lines up with the fans' assessment
Interestingly Michael Dorn would later say in an interview that he didn’t like this episode. He felt it made worf look bad since he so quickly accepts dishonour without even considering how it essentially robs his brother of his true identity since he can’t admit publicly he’s the son of mogh now without also being judged a traitor
Disagree with Dorn on this. In accepting dishonor as a self-sacrifice for the good of the Empire, Worf has retained and expanded upon his own real honor. He knows it, K'mpec knows it, and, most importantly, Duras knows it.
The fact that an actor is that invested in a character speaks volumes about the quality of the writing, and the show in general.
...But that isn't what happened. Worf took the dishonor on himself. It did not effect Kurn.
@@TriarchVisgroup But the only reason for that is that no one knows Kurn is Worf's brother aka also a Son Of Mogh. As stated, if Kurn reveals his true parentage (or if Duras does so out of petty spite) Kurn absolutely will suffer the same dishonor.
Well it's still in character for Worf, because he knows his brother will not have any dishonor as his identity is still unknown, while simultaneously "saving" the Klingon empire and the greater good with no loss to Kern is accomplished. Moreover, Worf knows making this call is completely justified in that he is the older brother, thus keeping in tradition
Patrick Stewart is ON FIRE at this stage of the show.
The one thing I've always loved about Worf is he knows who he is as a Klingon and despite the rest of his people looking down on him because he was rescued and raised by humans being Klingon and upholding their traditions is everything to him. This episode is obviously a prime example of that in he gave up everything that makes him, him just to save the empire from a civil war
One of the things I really like about the way you guys discuss the episodes is that it absolutely takes me back to what my friends and I did with TOS when we were kids.
We would get together and tear the episodes apart to better understand them, figure out alternate explanations for what we'd seen, what we weren't so keen on, and also (obviously) to discuss what we loved about them, even down to the music and character nuances.
Thanks guys! Really appreciate listening in and going on this journey with you both!
Agree. It totally reminds me of my Trek buddies.
Kurn is one of the most bad ass looking Klingons. Tony Todd was perfect for that role.
Agreed. He's fantastic.
When Michael Pillar came on board in season three, he wanted our crew to feel like a family and I’ve heard many stories about the writing room and the arguments he has with Gene. For this episode for example, Pillar had to convince Gene it was a Picard episode. 🖖
Considering they only had 45 mins, I thought Worf and his brother had some great moments. One of reasons Worf sacrificed his honor was in part for his brother. Also, Kurn not wanting to turn his back on Worf was powerful. I also thought that women who played Worf's nurse did an excellent job.
the reason Beverly was coming on to Worf is that the originalscripts for this season kept Dr Kate Pelaski and they just changed her to crusher when Gates came back.
This is such a great episode. Worf story that dives into Klingon culture and Picard's bad assery continues to shine. "You may test that assumption at your convenience."
Episodic shows always were meant to have the same characters doing their role and peronality without learning a lot about them from episode to episode. We don't get to see characters move on from the cast for the most part. I think the only show that really did it well was Law and Order. There were characters that left in various ways or change after a season to ad a new dynamic to the characters. They also fleshed them out with some small talk, because we never went home with them. But watching season after season with the characters you can learn so much about them. This episode really started to flesh out the Klingons a bit more. It's a great episode!
Once Kurn reveals he's Worf's brother I can't stop thinking "The makeup guys did a good job making his forehead look like Worf's."
you guys nailed what ive always felt reviewing this episode... how did they smush so much into 44 minutes? It flies by but it feels like 90 min of content somehow.
If Kearn ever headlined a bluegrass band, they’d be called Kearn on the Kob.
🤭
If they were a metal/punk band they'd be KUЯN
Sins of the Father will always be a big part of Star Trek lore. Or as one might just say The Lore, the Lore! Interesting and humorous observations on some of Gates McFaddin's subtle behavior in several scenes. Very observent. I had never really thought about any of that before or ever really noticed that.
Some time I hate knowing episodes that are far ahead still.
And so Worf goes from being some random Klingon who happens to be in Starfleet, to a "Lost Prince" trope, therefore the head of a Klingon aristocratic House.
This is my #7 episode of the entire series. I love the Klingon lore, Kurn is awesome, and the Worf/Picard relationship is fantastic. As time goes on, you see more and more Klingon lore in this show and the later series, and it's down to the popularity of this episode, I think.
On Worf's silencing Picard near the end of the episode, it falls in line 100% with what he'd told Kurn earlier: "On the Enterprise, you are my commanding officer, and I obey. In council chambers, YOU are MY cha'DIch... YOU obey."
I wonder if Klingon vision just skews to the red end of the visible spectrum. Maybe they can see infrared but can't see blues and violets. Maybe their rooms are all really well lit just not in a particularly human-visible way. That's always been one aspect I wish got explored more in science fiction: differences in alien perception as a result of their own unique evolution on their own particular planet. There's no reason why every alien should speak and hear in roughly the same frequency range of sounds. There's no reason why every alien should see the same colors as we do, or the same visible range of wavelengths. There's no reason why they should perceive time in the same way either. We might all be moving in slow motion to them, or so fast their eyes have trouble keeping up with our movements.
Interesting points that I have never considered!
@@greenbrown7776 Yeah, even animal life on Earth has a wide range in perception. I find it fascinating how different animals see, for example, and how predator camouflage and prey camouflage have evolved to counter each other's senses in very specific ways. And then there's the different ways flowers have evolved to have certain colors (including outside of human visible wavelengths) to attract the right pollinators that evolved their symbiotic relationships.
All this to say, it's completely implausible that alien lifeforms with a different local star putting out a different spectral signature, and different biology in alien plant and animal life in their environments, would just so happen to be exactly human-like in their senses. Usually scifi writers will give them an extra sense, or take one away, and call that good enough. But I think the smarter thing to do is give them pretty much the same senses but adjust them according to evolutionary principles.
One well-known example I can think of is the Kaminoans from Star Wars: Attack of the Clones. The reason their habitats were so white and featureless in the film is because they were actually meant to be seeing in the UV spectrum. To a human it all looked bland and colorless, but presumably their rooms were well-decorated in colors we can't see.
Before TNG and DS9 are over you'll know more about the Klingons than you do about Canadians!
You dishonored me, eh? Sorry, that'll cost you a toonie for a Tim's. A warrior's drink, hoser.
Nice to have you back 😊
They're fairly consistent on the lack of Klingon brotherly bonding
"You should have let him die" was in this
The Sons of Mogh are all about that honor, baby
You guys are getting really good at just talking without cuts, editing in general is great.
This episode is so good but also highlights one of my recurring issues with Klingons.
Klingons are a warrior-based society, excellent fighters with bodies literally built to survive (thicker bones and ridges for protection, redundant organs), and yet one knife to the side is enough to almost kill Kurn and in many cases does kill.
That said, I also find it amusing that even cowardly assassins have their own identifying ceremonial daggers :P
I have a cat named Worf
have you considered reviewing the s1 and s2 bloopers? you may enjoy them immensely. speaks to your point about the unity of the bridge crew- behind the scenes, they had a blast much of the time.
I renamed my cat cha’DIch at the time of this episode aired
Lmao
It's hard speaking about this episode without spoiling anything, but I think it wouldn't be a spoiler to say that the Discommendation thing is not about to just be brushed aside - Worf's actually going to have to deal with this in the future. And it's a key factor in MANY important episodes coming up.
Seriously I know you're sick of hearing it, but this half of season 3 is an example of where TNG goes, it really is BANGER after BANGER after BANGER for seasons. It's why the early TNG gets some flak, it's context.
This episode is an important one too, without any spoilers. It's the start of a *fantastic* arc.
"I am Worf, Son of Mough! I have come to challenge the lies that have been spoken of my father!". So epic!
They fit a lot into this episode. I feel like they could have made it a two-parter, but the season finale really deserved that
Probably an all-time top 5 TNG episode for me. The whole Kurn on the Enterprise section makes it feel almost like a 2-parter... in a good way. Having said that, every time I watch it I can't help but cringe or laugh at Picard's "Klingon Imperial Empire" line. While it's certainly nice to know that the good people at the Department of Redundancy Department still have a place in the 24th century, it's funny how something like that could slip by the writing staff and Patrick Stewart.
*_I think what make Picard’s relationship so close with Worf is how Picard understand (Even if he doesn’t always approve off) Klingon culture and how he uses it to be able to talk to Worf in difficult times. It is not unlike like how Picard also adapts his approach when he deals with Data when he has difficulties relating to humans: Picard gets more allegorical and whimsical with Data because Data is like a child who requires people be patient and precise with him. Getting back to Worf, Picard knows that Worf is more isolated than any other member of his crew and that he responds to Klingon ideals of honor, loyalty and sacrifice. So when Picard speaks to Worf, he is not only “speaking his language” by speaking the Klingon language, but he is speaking to him AS ONLY A KLINGON WOULD, with purpose and intent focused on those values that resonate with Worf (Rather than as a human would, which is more how Riker, Diana or Geordi would)._*
*_It is an archaic idea that dictates that a leader be a certain archetype and only communicate one way with all on their crew and that the onus of adapting one’s style to the other falls on the crew to follow the leader: Great Modern Leaders adapt to their subordinates in order to pull the best performance out of them and to create the strongest team bonds there can be!_*
Blazin’ Bev is a longtime meme in the fandom. Sometimes even the best doctors need to self medicate.
Don’t look it up though, since you might get spoiled even by memes.
Glad I’m not crazy
The first on screen appearance of Blazin Bev lol
Blazin' Bev is not based on Crusher's behavior at all but oh well
@@LeutnantJoker rewatching old episodes with an awareness of the meme makes them more enjoyable though
The meme originated from a screenshot, then a few more, and then it was realized that she seems high quite often, spawning a ton of variations.
Looking at current things going on right now on tv and streaming you guys made a great point about how this episode has a lot going on but it's done well and you really see everything has time to breathe and develop, nothing's really rushed.
Another reason I don't pay attention to "canon" novels - Kilingons were described as maturing earlier than humans and not having as long a life span as humans - as well as trying to explain the difference between "normal" Klingons (TOS) and 'imperial" Klingons (movie and TNG) - all trashed by later series.
Don't know if it's ever been stated but as far as I know there is no average age demise for Klingons due to old age. In order to go to "Valhalla" they have to die in combat and would rather "seppuku" than expire from a fatal illness.
None of the novels are canon. You had canon in `"` quotes so I'm not sure what you mean.
This needs to be asked. When are you going to watch the best ST movie, Galaxy Quest?
They already have. In fact, their review of Galaxy Quest was the "gateway drug" into their channel.
We watched it 2 years ago.
Only an idiot would ask this question without looking it up first (like I did a year ago) 😉
Even though they already watched it, a rewatch when they reach it in release date order might be interesting. Knowing more about ST, gives GQ a different perspective.
@@EricTheSaylorman That's actually a good point.
In my opinion, this is the last of the mid-season banger episodes of season 3 that started with "The High Ground". My take on the upcoming episodes: E:18 is C-tier, E:19 is B-tier, E-20 is C-tier. I think they guys will have about the same reaction. I think they'll like E-21 more than I do, based on things they've said on earlier episodes, so I'd rate C, but they might make it an B or even low A.
Alex is correct. Best Jedi is Jedi Master Picard 😄
That shirt will mean a lot more in a couple of episodes.
My rewrite to TMP is where would the TOS crew be at this time.
Scotty and Dr. Chapel are core crew of the Enterprise along with Capt. Decker, Ilia, Janice Rand and Saavik (or Xon) - until Admiral Kirk takes over
Spock follows in his father's footsteps and is an ambassador currently on the starship T'Pau*
McCoy is chief of the "doctors without borders" vessel Galen
Sulu is captain of the Excalibur (Excelsior not being in service until The Search for Spock - named after a sword this is the appropriate vessel for Sulu)
Uhura is captain of the Defiant (bums me out that the first female captain we see is not Uhura)
Chekov is first officer of the Reliant (with Capt. Terrell & communicatios officer Kyle)
All these vessels come together to solve the V'ger problem - in this case an alien race seeking the source of the Voyager probe.
The motto of the ship translates as Heart and Soul (if you don't get that one google T'Pau Heart and Soul)
So the discussions are released on the same day from now on?
Yeah
@@targetaudienceyay!
Early on before the development of a lot of official canon for the Klingons, it was put forth in one of the popular novels (John Ford's "The Final Reflection") that Klingons actually didn't live long at all, and proposed that that was part of why they were so extra. I don't know what the canonical Klingon lifespan ended up being, though.
Only character i would say has a better connection to picard than worf is Data.
Warf is “ excommunicato” also don’t forget he does have his human parents and his half brother which was already mentioned prior.
20:55
Actually, that character's name is "K'Mpec"
Kern will be back for more.
these guys have so much ahead lol they just don't know i love it
Another great episode and a great summary guys. Love watching your reactions 👍
As a minor observation, Kurn turns away from Worf in the opposite direction to the rest and is the only one to do that, I think?
thing is, Worf's brother was being a good first officer. Random spot checks, efficiency checks, etc. Thats what you get in most jobs. Manager will show up to check your performance. In military ships, you get shake downs all the time. Geordie was just being a whiney bitch for the sake of it. Oh no, Riker isn't our first officer, im gonna spit my dummy out and pout. I hate that attitude. And it seems to be a recurring character flaw.
Captain Jellico is that you?
@@tobbiecassin Jellico, like Kurn, did nothing wrong.
14:28 -- those "Blazin' Bev" memes/pics exist for a reason... lol... 😉 (Gates is herself long-aware of the Blazin' Bev memes and she thinks they're funny.)
Yes, Charles Cooper played both K'mpec here and Korrd in Star Trek V. Keep in mind, Korrd came first as ST V was released a couple of years before Sins of the Father,
And, no, unlike Michael Dorn's two characters in TNG and ST VI, K,mpec and Korrd are not related. At least, no relationship has ever been acknowledged.
"It is good to see YOU again"
"You are still fat"
Would this be a first in TNG for you guys. 3 Great episodes in a row?
Even more incredible, because we loved episode 14 and consider it 4 in a row
Ironically, Worf had to be dishonored with an honorable move to save the Klingon empire.
This is a such a pivotal episode that sets up the Klingon centric episodes not just for TNG but for also ST: Deep Space 9. I can't wait for you guys to finally reach season 4 of Deep Space 9.
You mentioned the crew being close, the cast really are close
Nice background. Would make a great gaming room.
ELITE LEVEL. Excellent execution all around and HUGE contribution to the LORE both Trek in general but for TNG in particular. Worf is now not just the only Klingon serving as an active duty officer in Starfleet but he and his Klingon family are deeply intertwined in internal Klingon politics. A make up heavy episode for sure but they pull it off. The production design shines, and well it should as they got an emmy.
It's the Worf/Picard show and as our boys like to say give them the ball and you're gonna get gold. No spoilers... This isn't the end.
I think you have 7/8 absolute BANGERS to look forward to. LFG!!!
5:53
"He Gors And Finds, 'K'Leth', Was That Her Name?"
Actually, her name's "K'Lest"
Klingon's can live up to 130 to 150 years old. Typically.
As Guinan likes to state: Klingons usually like to boast out laughing and having constant drama. Work idealized Klingon culture, having not been raised into it and is more stoïc and by the book as the usual Klingon (as you could compare with the Pagh crew in season 2 who liked fat jokes, trolling... Riker seemed very surprised before endorsing it fully)
I know, one day, if called upon, Alex would be Josh's skadoosh and vice versa.
Alex: I’m sure Riker has plenty of children out there.
😝
pretty sure they just liked the actor from star trek 5 and brought him in to play K'Mpec... i doubt there's any connection there.
I’ve always wondered where they got the idea to punish subsequent generations for crimes committed. I’ve read that North Korea has a “3 generation” law that seems similar, though there are conflicting opinions on if it continues to be enforced. I suspect at the time of TNG it might have still been a thing, and perhaps known. I always thought the Klingons in TOS were more representative of the USSR/Soviet dynamic, so maybe it’s rooted there as well. I mean, given how Roddenbury used many literary devices as a stand-in for current socio-political events & beliefs I can’t help but believe there was something behind it.
Humans live til about 120/130 in the 24th century. Occasionally older (no spoilers) Klingons about the same but some are as old as 160.
Klingons live longer than Humans, but not quite as long as Vulcans.
"This is the Worf episode for this season." There are 26 episodes and 9ish main characters - surely they could give each more than one focused episode per season.
Without spoiling anything, Worf's ongoing story with the Klingon Empire through the rest of the series and Deep Space Nine is great, and you guys are going to love it.
This is the first time where we find out that Worf really doesn't understand his own people. He's grown up as an outsider to his culture and has only really been exposed to klingon culture through federation stereotypes and or klingon propaganda. Worf truly believes other kingons hold themselves to the same high standards he does, but they see him as a weirdo which I always saw as sad.
It's kind of like how the people of Quebec City are more hard-core French than Parisians. They've had to be.
@@greenbrown7776 Yeah I know a guy like that. At first I thought he was just joking. He wasn't joking.
@@fakecubed / I went to Montreal, Quebec City and Paris fairly close together (about 20 years ago). At least back then, QC was definitely "the most French" of the three cities. To me, Paris was in the middle. And Montreal the least - they were super bilingual and pretty chill.
In some ways, I liked QC the most.
Mmm, fascinating you mention about age of a Klingon. Soon, very soon. About age and.....
Yeah, this is the Worf episode.
Just wondering, do you plan to finish all of TNG before moving to Deep Space Nine? Or begin alternating between the two? They ran simultaneously for TNG season 6-7,. and DS9 Seasons 1-2, and there are bits of continuity here and there between them.
They are watching all of Star Trek in release order. So for example, they still haven't seen Star Trek VI.
@@fakecubed All cool. I wonder how many TNG set reuses they'll catch in Star Trek VI.
The thing about the Duras family is that they’ll rarely do anything themselves.
Spoiling. Foreshadowing. Broadly hinting. Revealing.
K`mpec (pronounced Kim peck)... FFS you just watched the episode.
Don't forget George Kirk's appearance in TOS. Welp, he's dead.
This episode has implications that last into the Next Gen movies.
I think Gates was in a REALLY good mood in this episode…
It's not every day she gets to operate on a Klingon.
Blazin Bev
if you appreciate ron moore on this you are going to love BSG for those very reasons you liked how he piled on story elements but doesn’t loose your attention
Shut up Picard !
As a kid, I found the Klingon episodes dull and uninteresting. Nothing since has changed my mind. The honourable warrior trope was old even when this was first aired.
I think that’s part of what made this episode interesting: we got a glimpse of the true Klingon politico, a crack in their veneer of honor.