Making the IMPOSSIBLE Turn… Possible from 600' AGL?
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- čas přidán 18. 04. 2024
- Engine failure after take off requires a specific plan and ZERO hesitation to act on it!
This episode heavily leaned on debriefing with CloudAhoy which is clearly a very powerful tool.
It was recently acquired by ForeFlight and I suspect it will continue to be developed and updated.
I have been briefing that 800’ AGL would be my minimum altitude to consider a turn back after #enginefailure based on 100+ hours experience with the airplane, and having tested “the power off turn back” at a safe altitude with a simulated hard deck well above ground level; However, before this flight, I hadn’t actually tested it realistically.
The opportunity with Luke in town for Aerobatic competition preparation training was a great time to actually test the turn back with a super experienced instructor at the controls. I was able to watch and record it, to review and come up with my own formal process to handle the #emergency situation of a loss of power on climb out, in this specific airplane.
I’m heading to work with Luke again at Harv’s Air to do my multi IFR upgrade shortly (I’ve got the multi, and the single engine instrument rating, but not the multi engine instrument rating, so instead of doing an other single engine IPC (which I'm due for), I decided to challenge myself with the upgrade that supersedes an IPC :)
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Can we talk about how awesome tower was to agree to and help you out with this exercise? That's great service right there.
Yes 👏 Windsor tower controllers are awesome! They help us out all the time with all sorts of things including post maintenance test flights and formation operations and training in the warbird fleet from the museum based there.
@@FlightChops This was my CFI teaching 4 kinds of EFATO and Emergency Low Maneuvers. First ever to do that. 1995. 4 Real landings on 4k feet long runway with 16knots winds. No BS like others still do. I took that training in 1995. We dont BS. We are Puerto Ricans. We like to do hard things. Glad some pilots like you like to do hard maneuvers too. czcams.com/video/94li1apG-aI/video.html
I'm a PPL with a glider rating, we're taught the turnback as part of training. For most gliders, the turnback is possible from 200-300 feet AGL, but the key is that you have to get up to a 45* bank to get the minimum altitude lost in the turn. The other trick is to turn into a crosswind as it will push you back towards the centerline of the opposing runway.
14 year old girls are required and do turnbacks from 250 agl and 45 bank. Many americans tremble if had to do a spin from 5,000 feet agl or any hard maneuverting emergency like a turnback on an easy to do Cessna from 700 agl with some power. MANY USA GA PILOTS ARE FAKE TIGERS. JUST PAPER TIGERS. Mild Maneuvering Misses..
@@CFITOMAHAWK2 Victor... i know you are mad at all those paper tigers destroying nice machines ... Well They dam are.. I used to say that too. LOL..
"At 600 feet we will turn back to the airport and land on any clear surface."
In a real emergency I don't care about if it's an official runway.
Watch the whole video :)
You need an altimeter marker and a full gross Vglide airspeed line to use them quickly with out thinking those numbers. I took GRM Turnbacks first, then on runway on Cherokees.. 1996. It is a Vglide 45 bank turnback. At over the calculated before take off altitude and direction to turn to. It is not a mild 30 bank turn. Geee ! And it is not a 180 too. For No power, It is a Hook Turnback, Shaped also like a question mark. Like this, when made to the right. ?. You need a better CFi THAT KNOWS TURNBACKS WELL, not imagine them and not do them at all..
If Partial Power. The Teardrop Turnback is done only if under 400 agl and only with partial power constant on. If engine surging on and off, drop nose and land forward on best place with shallow turns if under 400. You cannot turnback on most non LSA's under 400 if engine is surging on and off unless some constant power, some power and do A Teardrop Turnback. The Hook Turnback is for over say 700 agl or more andn some wind.
My CFi has a video from 1995 showing 4 kinds of EFATO from 50, 500 and 600 agl with strong winds all landing on 4k long runway with 16 knots winds. All landed on runway. Cherokee 160hp with 2 on board and baggage. No BS. The more emergency maneuvers you know, the better pilot you are.
@@outwiththem Hi Harold. Yes the flight indicators or markers should be on Altimeter and ASI. Remember i also used to put a minimum level power mark RPM. To indicate the minimum LEVEL ALTITUDE RPM on tach. So no need to think if the rpm is good to keep altitude or not if it falls back there. Easy references to be used also all times.
Really good point about getting back to the airport property. I think a lot of folks don’t think about how hard it may be for emergency services to get to you if you put it in a field and end up trapped and or injured severely in an aircraft. Definitely something to think about, but so situational. I think key takeaway, don’t be lazy with your pre-brief. Even if its just yourself in the aircraft, know the area, know the aircraft, know yourself and the limitations of all 3.
Dan Gryder say to never turn at all if any engine problem, even from 1k feet agl on a Cessna easy to turnback. To crash in front all times, NO TURNS. Really? LoL. I know 3 friends that turned back from as low as 300 agl with partial power and avoided crashing on houses and cars. he is FOS, the more maneuvers you know, the better pilot you are. Ignorance kills, practice saves..
Bonanza engine fail at 1k. Landed straight ahead or turned? czcams.com/video/Z0f-04vUJMc/video.html
@@outwiththem I don't want to speak for Dan, but I will say, he isn't irrational.. if your choices are a dense neighborhood in front of you and you are in a slick RV at 1k AGL go ahead and return to the field. You have to realize Dan typically flies a DC-3 and flies out of a rural airport. You are speaking for him and I do not feel that is completely fair.
@@nikhayes3396 So you think is rational to ask over 100,000 pilots or more seen those videos in last years- to NEVER TURN, not even a bit if engine fails with even if have partial power. To "Land" STRAIGHT AHEAD all times. Sure, Like if we were all 5 hour students that sucks doing Vglide Turns. We dont.. He is, but we dont. See a propane truck in front? You hit it. Houses? hit them.
I learned Vglide Turns at about 7-8 hours. And you? Can you do Vglide Turns? Cant do them like him?
@@nikhayes3396 Dan's an ass, do what flight chops did, practice. You can always do it at elevation., make the turn and see how much elevation you lose. Try different bank angles, just stay coordinated and let the nose drop as needed to prevent a stall.
One of the rare times we've both posted flying videos on the same day. Speaking of impossible turns, I got to witness an emergency landing at PTK last Sunday. A Cherokee flown by a flight instructor had just taken off from 27R, I was standing by a friend's hangar at Echo Row on the north side. Just as he flew by, we heard an immediate engine note change and the sound was unmistakable: he'd just lost a cylinder. He leveled out at about maybe 200-300 feet AGL; his engine sounded very rough but it was still making power and there was no smoke. He carefully milked it around in a left turn and came in on 9R; inbound jet traffic went around above him. Good landing by a cool instructor. I captured the very end of the turnaround with phone video; afterward I met him at the flight school and shared the video with him via Dropbox. Since his mechanic is also the former president of our EAA Chapter 194, I'm sure we'll get a presentation of the incident from them in the near future. I've practiced the impossible turn in the sim and it helped me do a simulated power loss all the way to the ground in a Citabria a few years back. I was pretty proud of that, but about a month later I went through a similar scenario with Dave in the Chippie and botched it in a rather embarrassing fashion. Pride goeth before a fall. In other news, that Tecnam looks sweet! Good Luck!
❤❤❤I love your content… I’ve been watching you for years now. With your dedication I now have about 3000hours on flight sim. Failed pilot selection but certified Ejection seat engineer for 10years now.
Keep your flight chops sharp 👌🏾
Climb at Vy, not shallow. 3 second reaction time is a lot for a pilot. Higher is slow pilot. I used to teach 2 kinds of turnbacks, 50 feet engine fails and aerobatics when CFI in 1990's. From Vy, if over turnback marker, push nose down and Vglide 45 bank turn into the crosswind if any, dont look to runway and turn body at same time or you might pull elevator too by mistakeon first 90 degrees of turn. Concentrate on the Vglide 45 bank for first 90 degrees, then look at runway, not before. If you find yourself too low to glide to airport, you are pointing already to headwind. Decide to keep the turnback or land headwind if too low.
If gliding to airport, Call if time, drop flaps and mixture if too high. On flare, if fast, cut the mixture and cut the flaps. Better than crashing on houses or cars.
If you find this Vglide 45 bank difficult, imagine if you crash outside the airport from a safe turnback altitude but you decided to crash outside "because Vglide 45 is difficult". You will feel like a fool, hurt and broke too due crash expenses.
Turn backs are an awful idea.
And I say that as someone who was taught them and survived a real one.
There are far too many variables to a successful one. Heck.. some planes due to light winds and high weights depart at an angle that is shallower than there glide angle.. making it _MATHEMATICALLY IMPOSSIBLE_ to make it back to the runway.
A forced approach into almost any terrain-including trees and houses-is survivable as long as you don’t stall or spin. Something that lots of pilots got into trying to make it back.
Don’t risk your life and the lives of your passengers to save _insured_ PROPERTY!!
Yes, this is good. Your not trying to make a coordinated standard turn your getting the dang airplane back to the runway. Push the nose down, with the extra energy pull a steep turn into the wind and get it back. Now it does depend on the airplane but for the small aircraft I fly this is what I’d do.
@@calvinnickel9995 Read again. You need those turnback altimeter marker. I used them for real and 3 more pilots i know. Read again all post here i did. You were trained bad i guess. I will show you videos of no power turnbacks from 600' agl on cherokees, landing on 3,000 feet of runway. With high winds. You show me your "landings" on those trees and houses you say they are survivable. Show me those. I will show my landings, not crashes like you say you will do. Waiting for your videos.. for real, not on BS simulator.
@@ridge9066 You need those turnback altimeter marker. I used them for real and 3 more pilots i know. 1990's turnbacks for real i taught and had to do 2 for real. Nose down if over turnback marker, Vgide 45 bank, not steeper. flaps if high or forward slip or both. cut mixture and flaps on the flare if floating too much. See my playlist..
Doesn't really matter which runway I take off of at CYOO Oshawa - it's now completely built up all around. There aren't too many off airport options; coming back (if I have enough altitude) is the best option; taxi-ways and grass are all fair game in my opinion (with my aircraft).
On another note - Interesting difference in the microphone quality between the A30 and A20 headphones. To my ear the A30 is much clearer.
Good insights - and agreed yeah - the A30 mic is excellent.
You need an altimeter marker and a full gross Vglide airspeed line to use them quickly with out thinking those numbers. I took GRM Turnbacks first, then on runway on Cherokees.. 1996. It is a Vglide 45 bank turnback. At over the calculated before take off altitude and direction to turn to. It is not a mild 30 bank turn. Geee ! And it is not a 180 too. For No power, It is a Hook Turnback, Shaped also like a question mark. Like this, when made to the right. ?. You need a better CFi THAT KNOWS TURNBACKS WELL, not imagine them and not do them at all..
If Partial Power. The Teardrop Turnback is done only if under 400 agl and with partial power constant on. If engine surgin on and off, drop nose and land forward on best place with shallow turns if under 400. You cannot turnback on most non LSA's under 400 if engine is surging on and off unles some constant power, some power and Teardrop Turn. The Hook Turnback is for over say 700 agl or more if wind.
My CFi has a video from 1995 showing 4 kinds of EFATO from 50, 500 and 600 agle with strong winds all landing on 4k long runway with 16 knots winds. All landed on runway. No BS
👍with the sod farms to the east of CYKF and the city to the west, the engine out briefing can be quite different depending on the active
I mapped it out once, and from runway 30 if you make it to at least a few hundred feet, you can glide to some fields on the north side of Taunton. But that's one out of 4 runways, and only IF you make it to a few hundred feet first. Other than that, yeah, the built-up neighbourhoods all around CYOO are anxiety-provoking every time I take off over them.
@@WingsOverTO Most engine fails are partial power. I know a pilot with only 70 hours that brought back his 172 with 3 on board from 300 agl only. He lost a cylinder. But he took turnback training at 50 hours..
I have practiced the turn back in a RV-14a. A 45 degree bank @ 85kts had less altitude loss than 95kts (No wheel pants). Key points, if you don't know all of the parameters then straight ahead is the best option. I always calculate the altitude where this becomes an option. After takeoff, I allow the crosswind to push me a little off center line as my reminder of which way to turn. This also reduces the amount of turning. When the wheel pants are finished we will run the numbers again.
Most engine fails are partial power. Power go down due mostly lost one cylinder. On 4 cylinders engines will go down to 1,800-1,900 rpm. Just about Minimum Level Power (MLP). Practice MLP Slow Flight. With about 10 degr. flaps. A friend with only 70 hours total, took off C172 with 3 adults on board, rpm dropped to that, but he had training turnback from 400 agl. He turned back from 300 agl, landed opposite. No damages. We took Turnback Training in the 1990's,. Partial and total EFATO we did with EmergencyLowManeuvering channel.
Love this. Practicing this and internalizing the numbers for your specific aircraft should be mandatory for everyone.
Absolutely!
and then you go to high DA conditions with extra weight you haven't practiced for and you're dead.
I couldn’t disagree more
Hey Steve, Great experiments. Going to be getting back up in the air in a couple weeks after about a year of being busy with some classes I was taking. Looking forward to it. Also looking forward to seeing your Akro episodes.
Thanks for the content Steve!
Great video Steve - super interesting and informative. :)
If you fly straight out and than need to turn back like that, it's allways a 270° turn. 180° to reverse parallel to the rw + 45° to point to the runway + 45° to point it back to the centerline before touchdown.
Don't know if I missed it, but it's worth noting wind direction awareness and turning into the wind to reduce your distance of drift from the airport. I was working when listening😊😅
That kind of Turnback is shaped like a Hook or A Question Mark. All Turnbacks are done toward crosswind if any. My CFI used to call it. A Headwind Hook and showed the diagram on paper before doing it. 1996 i learned it.
Most common engine fails are PARTIAL POWER. I taught 400 agl partial power turnarounds and turnbacks when CFI 2 decades ago. I created the partial power 444 rule to do it safely and easier. Partial Power on take off is lately known as Reduction of Thrust On Take Off (ROTOT), so for short, we can call that rule The 444 ROTOT RULE.
WHAT IS THE 444 ROTOT RULE.
The 444 Rule is a rule I created In the 1990’s to deal with the most common engine failure on take off, which is a partial power failure. Most times is a cylinder lost. That is a Reduction of Thrust On Take OFF (A ROTOT) I had 3 of those on Cherokees, i landed on runway on all 3. Most common is a cylinder lost ROTOT. Most fixed pitch prop planes will keep 1,800 to 2k RPM if cylinder lost. You will not climb at all unless low temp and low weight. If over 400 feet agl, consider A Turnback. A Turnaround the airport can take 3-4 times more distance and time to land. Many turnaround airport low ROTOT end up crashing on downwind, base or final leg. Not a Turback.
Most ROTOT accidents are Turnaround the airport, not a Turnback to closest runway but the Turnback ignorants call A Turnaround a Turnback and a Turnback a Turnaround. No, they are not the same maneuver. A Turnback is not a Turnaround the airport and you dont “turnaround” anything. Just turn 40 bank to closest runway or back runway at Vglide speed. Dont Turnaround anything on A Turnback.
To do THE 444 ROTOT RULE. Before taxi, mark the altimeter for 400 agl mark. When power reduction, IF OVER 400 agl altitute marked, 1- lower the nose to keep Vglide or Vx if some flaps used for take off (I DO). 2- Some carb heat and some mixture control out. 3-Turn to side 40 degrees to get runway distance for about 4 seconds. 4-turn into the runway at Vglide 40 bank nose low of course. Cut power when bit high, flaps and gear down when a bit high again. 400 agl, 40 degree to side, then 40 bank nose down. 444 ROTOT RULE.
No power be almost double ROTOT altitude. For that i developed The 777 NO POWER RULE. I will post later on. I did one in 1994.
NOTE; If a crosswind you better turn first to downwind side of crosswind, then headwind on second turn. Never turn to runway with a strong tailwind to it, specially if 18o short approach. Short approaches with a tailwind produced many crashes via overshoot stalls.
That is one of GRM basics.
Jay Vega, Aerobatics and EFATO CFI all 1990's. I had 3 ROTOTS on cherokees with cargo. landed them. and 3 left and right full feathered landings with cargo on Aztec, and DC3. No BS.
Hey Jay.. 444 Partial Power Rule.. Cool. Bring more.. The 777 No Power Rule.
For us glider pilots it’s 200’. We have to be more mindful of wind. Sometimes we have to delay if we have the altitude so we know when we turn we still have runway. A good headwind will push you too far down!!
Luke’s harness strap being twisted bugs the heck out of me
That copilot is sooo scared and insecure of the Vglide 45 Turnback. He needs to practice lots more.
My instructor has shown me several times how a 172 comes back from 200' AGL. It's a quite aggressive turn, almost a wingover, but it keeps your airspeed high enough and you even have some spare to grease the landing.
Hell no. I used to teach turnbacks no power from 600 agl on Cessnas. That is too dam low. Let me see that video him doing that with 2 on board.
He is FOS. I bet he turned over 60 bank and was lightly loaded also. Over 45 bank you might stall it easier. Most pilots will not drop nose enough to not stall it. He is FOS. Video up. LETS SEE THAT..
Most engine fails are partial power. Power go down due mostly lost one cylinder. On 4 cylinders engines will go down to 1,800-1,900 rpm. Just about Minimum Level Power (MLP). Practice MLP Slow Flight . With about 10 degr. flaps. Fly along a highway, pick a spot and turnback back and forht to it, Flyover many times to it flying over the highway and turnback again. A friend with only 70 hours total, took off on a C172 with 3 adults on board, rpm dropped to that, but he had training turnback from 400 agl. He turned back from 300 agl, --landed opposite. No damages. We took Turnback Training in the 1990's,. Partial and total EFATO we did with EmergencyLowManeuvering channel.
Reality helpful to see these demonstrations. I'm trying to appreciate that this is being done by 'pros' but also I'm reflecting on how I'm might need to consider these options in populated areas
For sure yeah I definitely don’t suggest practicing this on your own, close to the ground… but get up with a good instructor and keep the airplane safely with in the envelope and see how what ever you’re flying performs.
@@FlightChops Just in case you didnt get it. This was my 1990' CFI teaching how to Flyover Turnback level altitude then did 4 kinds of EFATO and Partial Power landings with strong winds on Cherokee. To a not long runway too. First ever to show all those. czcams.com/video/94li1apG-aI/video.html
The wind definitely plays a factor here, but when you have other runways available, I would consider briefing a turn back to a different runway. You could probably make RWY 12 from 600' AGL if you turned right. Similarly if you have parallel runways, turn toward the one next to the one you took off from.
Good vid. Also, after getting my tail wheel endorsement... I've found many planes, when landing on a paved runway, like to be wheel landed. Most will be tail low, just to help arrest the descent. I only do 3 point on grass, and if there isn't much crosswind.
I taught turnbacks to many in my CFI years. Needed maneuver that got too many doing them wrong way. YOU NEED TO KNOW TURNBACKS.- Not only for EFATO. You need turnbacks also on Circling Approaches, Flyover Turnbacks, Box Canyon turnbacks, overhead airport to enter the 45 after. Many accidents on those 5 places were the pilot made turnback errors and crashed. His fault- for not knowing Turnbacks well. A 180 is not a full turnback, just an U Turn. Turnbacks are bigger turns that finish at almost or the same place you were before. A course reversal, not just a heading reversal 180 turn. Turnbacks are more than a 180. Many CFI's call a 180 a turnback. No its not. Unless landing back on parallel runway which most airports dont have. That is the only time a 180 Turnback is it.
TO TEACH TURNBACKS;
It is better to teach "Turnbacks To A Double Flyover" FIRST. The GRM TURNBACKS first, then the emergency and circling ones later on after you do them level flight well. I taught them all 2 decades ago and researched about the accidents causes on them a lot. Most pilots dont know those maneuvers well and do them very wrong, or stall and crash. Even ATPs crashes doing turnbaks due errors.
1-The Teardrop Turnbacks to a flyover a spot on ground do it first. Fly at Vglide speed slow flight over highway (w. a Crosswind). With flaps 10 degrees. 1,000' agl. Fly over spot on highway, turn away from wind 40 degr. , then into wind. Fly over the spot on highway again, after flyover repeat same steps on other side. Do 3 on each side until perfection Teardrop Turnbacks. One turn turnbacks require 2k feet dist. from flyover spot. Dont do them yet. Those are more difficult and dangerous. Later on i will type about those Hook Turnbacks. Cropdusters do them only after getting low in weight. I used to call them Question Mark Shaped Turnbacks. 2k distance after flyover, Vglide speed, bank 45 degr. more later on that QMark ? Turnback.
2-Then Box Canyon Turnbacks Scenario (Climbing Vx but at 60% power only to sim a 10k density alt.) Then the Circling Approach overfly + Turnback, then the LOTOT Turnbacks and no power EFATO at end. Some day you will have to do those maneuvers.
Some say to keep the ignorance. But Ignorance is not the solution, IGNORANCE IS THE PROBLEM. Most pilots that crashed doing turnbacks on those 5 places were Turnback Ignorant Pilots. This is a tool all pilots need to know, not just CFI's.
Great insights here.
@@FlightChops Im the CFI that taugh the other poster named outwiththem. We know 4 others that had to turnback and didnt crash on cars and houses on our 1990's airport. I have a video from 1995 for you with 4 EFATo real landings on runway . will post it. I used to teach EFATO 4 on runway, not just at altitude.
@@FlightChops This was the first ever video teaching how to do on the runway, not just at altitude the basic 4 kinds of EFATO and Partial Power RoToT. First we talk about the Low Altitude Pull Syndrome on low maneuvering GRM Turnbacks to Flyover again, then how to apply the GRM Level Turnbacks to EFATO and ROTOT Emergencies on runway with 16 knots strong winds. Narroator said 14 knots, but they were constant all day at 16-17 knots. Runway is 4,k feet long. Sebastian Florida. The town was in front.
Canadians are brave enough to do EFATO too. Im Puerto Rican. I used to teach all that in the 1990's. Video is 43 minutes. Read the introduction too. The video is inside one of my 1990's student channel called CFITOMAHAWK. This is still the only video showing all those low altitude optical illusions that lead to stall, ball in center spins, accel stalls, 2 kinds of Turnbacks to real runway with strong winds, and 2 kinds of 50 feet EFATO and ROTOT with real landings too.
czcams.com/video/94li1apG-aI/video.html
Have done this in my Sling4. 600ft is OK provided there is enough of a headwind to improve the climb angle. Have a hostile airport environment at my home field in terms of off airport landing sites - I like the idea of considering a return to the airport property rather than fixating on a runway return to keep that wing loading low and the risk of stall-spin down.
I’ve practiced engine out on take off many times. A good pre departure brief is a must as mentioned.
I was pretty comfortable flying my Cherokee with the normal load I usually carry. For a change I had an instructor and passenger go with to significantly increased my load. Wow what a difference. My take away is practice with different loads and configurations to try to get a baseline then add to your pre departure brief
You need an altimeter marker and a full gross Vglide airspeed line to use them quickly with out thinking those numbers. I took GRM Turnbacks first, then on runway on Cherokees.. 1996. It is a Vglide 45 bank turnback. At over the calculated before take off altitude and direction to turn to. It is not a mild 30 bank turn. Geee ! And it is not a 180 too. For No power, It is a Hook Turnback, Shaped also like a question mark. Like this, when made to the right. ?. You need a better CFi THAT KNOWS TURNBACKS WELL, not imagine them and not do them at all..
If Partial Power. The Teardrop Turnback is done only if under 400 agl and only with partial power constant on. If engine surging on and off, drop nose and land forward on best place with shallow turns if under 400. You cannot turnback on most non LSA's under 400 if engine is surging on and off unless some constant power, some power and do A Teardrop Turnback. The Hook Turnback is for over say 700 agl or more andn some wind.
My CFi has a video from 1995 showing 4 kinds of EFATO from 50, 500 and 600 agl with strong winds all landing on 4k long runway with 16 knots winds. All landed on runway. Cherokee 160hp with 2 on board and baggage. No BS. The more emergency maneuvers you know, the better pilot you are.
The basic idea I was getting across was to practice especially with different loads. Don’t only get comfortable st your “norm”.
I have a great instructor now also did when I started in 1988. Not sure where your going with your comment
Wind has to be considered. When a 15G18 headwind on takeoff becomes an instant tailwind on turn back it is a performance decreasing windshear. That will change your decision altitude drastically. Have you practised an approach with an 18kt tailwind? With houses or obstacles on the departure path, a turn back to anywhere within the airport perimeter fence is a win. Terrain will be flat and emergency services will available, not to mention no collateral damage.
You have to keep the nose down when doing the Vglide 45 bank turnback. Aproaching the 180 point you will feel a bit more sinking due the tailwind, but then that tailwind will flaten the glide and helps reaching the runway. I used to to teach Teardrops and Hook Shaped Turnbacks in the 1990's CFI years. Had 3 partial power fails on me, Cherokees. Landed all.
Great video, but am wondering and was hoping to see this but, I wonder what the effect of turning into the wind at 600agl cus the winds were 260, and if that turn would have been shorter cus that's how I brief but at 800agl with a C172?
Great video! I am curious why you are acknowledging tower takeoff clearance with only your call sign and not the full clearance plus call sign. Is it a Canada thing or simply because you are the only one in the airspace and briefed tower on your plans?
Takes me about 500' in my Luscombe. It's different in every plane. Pilot technique also affects it, of course.
Fixed pitch vs constant speed prop is the big difference
One difference among many. The real determinant, apart from runway length, is glide slope vs climb slope in the ambient Conditions on the day.
You need an altimeter marker and a full gross Vglide airspeed line to use them quickly with out thinking those numbers. I took GRM Turnbacks first, then on runway on Cherokees.. 1996. It is a Vglide 45 bank turnback. At over the calculated before take off altitude and direction to turn to. It is not a mild 30 bank turn. Geee ! And it is not a 180 too. For No power, It is a Hook Turnback, Shaped also like a question mark. Like this, when made to the right. ?. You need a better CFi THAT KNOWS TURNBACKS WELL, not imagine them and not do them at all..
If Partial Power. The Teardrop Turnback is done only if under 400 agl and only with partial power constant on. If engine surging on and off, drop nose and land forward on best place with shallow turns if under 400. You cannot turnback on most non LSA's under 400 if engine is surging on and off unless some constant power, some power and do A Teardrop Turnback. The Hook Turnback is for over say 700 agl or more andn some wind.
My CFi has a video from 1995 showing 4 kinds of EFATO from 50, 500 and 600 agl with strong winds all landing on 4k long runway with 16 knots winds. All landed on runway. Cherokee 160hp with 2 on board and baggage. No BS. The more emergency maneuvers you know, the better pilot you are.
Great video. I fly out of CYXX and rwy 01 has very little options after takeoff for a forced landing. A right turn back to the field is usually the best option with the goal of at least making it back to the airport property. It also doesn't help that the airplane I fly has the glide peformance of a brick.
You need an altimeter marker and a full gross Vglide airspeed line ( Like a DMMS Line). to use them quickly with out thinking those numbers. I took GRM Turnbacks first, then on runway on Cherokees.. 1996. It is a Vglide 45 bank turnback. At over the calculated before take off altitude and direction to turn to. It is not a mild 30 bank turn. Geee ! And it is not a 180 too.
For No power, It is a Hook Turnback, Shaped also like a question mark. Like this, when made to the right. ?. You need a better CFi THAT KNOWS TURNBACKS WELL, not imagine them and not do them at all.. MAKE THEM PROVE THEIR BS ON THE RUNWAY, not high up.
If Partial Power. The Teardrop Turnback is done only if under 400 agl and only with partial power constant on. If engine surging on and off, drop nose and land forward on best place with shallow turns if under 400. You cannot turnback on most non LSA's under 400 if engine is surging on and off unless some constant power, some power and do A Teardrop Turnback. The Hook Turnback is for over say 700 agl or more andn some wind.
My CFi has a video from 1995 showing 4 kinds of EFATO from 50', 500 and 600' agl with strong winds all landing on 4k long runway with 16 knots winds. All landed on runway. Cherokee 160hp with 2 on board and baggage. No BS. The more emergency maneuvers you know, the better pilot you are.
I agree losing engine on 01 is sketch, I am based CYXX as well.
@@jaybhojwani8308 I know it's not much extra distance but sometimes I feel that I should reject intersection takeoffs from taxiway C and ask for full length.
@@jaybhojwani8308 Most engine fails are partial power. You can partial power turnback from as low as 300 agl if trained..
The impossible turn altitude is absolutely valuable data
You need an altimeter marker and a full gross Vglide airspeed line to use them quickly with out thinking those numbers. I took GRM Turnbacks first, then on runway on Cherokees.. 1996. It is a Vglide 45 bank turnback. At over the calculated before take off altitude and direction to turn to. It is not a mild 30 bank turn. Geee ! And it is not a 180 too. For No power, It is a Hook Turnback, Shaped also like a question mark. Like this, when made to the right. ?. You need a better CFi THAT KNOWS TURNBACKS WELL, not imagine them and not do them at all..
If Partial Power. The Teardrop Turnback is done if under 400 agl but only with partial power constant on. If engine surging on and off, drop nose and land forward on best place with shallow turns if under 400. You cannot turnback on most non LSA's under 400 if engine is surging on and off unless some constant power, some power and do A Teardrop Turnback. The Hook Turnback is for over say 700 agl or more andn some wind. My CFi has a video from 1995 showing 4 kinds of EFATO from 50, 500 and 600 agl with strong winds all landing on 4k long runway with 16 knots winds. All landed on runway. Cherokee 160hp with 2 on board and baggage. No BS. The more emergency maneuvers you know, the better pilot you are.
Climb at Vy, not shallow. 3 second reaction time is a lot for a pilot. Higher is slow pilot. I used to teach 2 kinds of turnbacks, 50 feet engine fails and aerobatics when CFI in 1990's. From Vy, if over turnback marker, push nose down and Vglide 45 bank turn into the crosswind if any, dont look to runway and turn body at same time or you might pull elevator too by mistake. Concentrate on the Vglide 45 bank for first 90 degrees, then look at runway, not before. If you find yourself too low to glide to airport, you are pointing already to headwind. Decide to keep the turnback or land headwind if too low.
If gliding to airport, Call if time, drop flaps and mixture if too high. On flare, if fast, cut the mixture and cut the flaps. Better than crashing on houses or cars. If you find this Vglide 45 bank difficult, imagine if you crash outside the airport from a safe turnback altitude but you decided to crash outside "because Vglide 45 is difficult". You will feel like a fool, hurt and broke too due crash expenses.
the altitude depends upon your aircraft, it's glide ratio, runway remaining/length, Density Altitude, wind speed and direction, and more. Don't take one particular altitude as true for everyone, every aircraft, nor every condition.
@@SoloRenegade You mark the agl altitude after you think about all those factors. We used the 777 No Power Turback Rule. If climbing at over 700 fpm, and winds 7 knot or more, mark the altitude to 700 agl or slightly more.
@@outwiththem as long as you're considering worst case scenario. most pilots aren't.
Very interesting training. We are taught from day one to never consider turning back to the runway during an engine out situation. However, I can now see where it could be appropriate to do so. Thanks for sharing! 😊
Practiced this a few times with a CFI in the Archer II I fly most of the time, I know I can make any runway at my home airport at 800 AGL, probably at 600 as well. For the crossing runway I need to circle farther or slip to land anywhere near the threshold.
@@onyourbikesIf you are losing a “few” (I take that as more than two) hundred feet during the startle, then you really need to take up something other than flying. Even at a 2,000 FPM descent, 300 feet takes 9 full seconds. And most light airplanes won’t descend more than 1,000 FPM which is 19 seconds. If you can’t decide within 9-18 seconds how to handle an engine failure, then you really aren’t cut out for aviation.
@@onyourbikes Well since I've had an engine stop after switching tanks and that didn't happen then, I think I'll probably be Ok as I plan for it on takeoff.
First time we did it I didn't get a warning, after that I knew it was coming but didn't know when. Landed on all runways, it was a fun morning. I've done it a few times since then so I know that plane in those conditions at that airport. One of the things I tell the CFI during currency checks is to test me on it without telling me ahead of time.
@@onyourbikes As long as you don’t do a Vmc rollover. 😂
Great point here... So, 800 feet to make the runway and 600ish to make "airport property" to protect the surrounding community!
Dan Gryder says never to do Vglide turns even with partial power. To crash straight ahead, NO TURNS, ZERO TURNS. Just crash straight ahead. LOL.. I learned Vglide turns at 5 hours in a short wing Piper Colt bad glider. Had 3 single engine partial power fails, Turned and landed on airport. No accidents.
I also discuss which direction I will turn back towards the runway based on environment but more specifically on wind. Like this situation with a right crosswind, I would make a right turn back towards runway (assuming I’m above my decision height) that would allow the wind to push me back onto centerline. Making a left turn would push me away from the runway requiring more distance/time/altitude to return to centerline
I missed your introductory written comment on your briefing this maneuver to "completion" at a safe altitude. This serves to help make you proficient in the maneuver, and in your particular airplane. Should you ever "test" it realistically? Maybe with a very experienced pilot with you and using the parameters you used at altitude. Regardless, for a thorough overview of the turn back maneuvers that provides guidance on coming up with the numbers as well as many caveats, one should read the articles and webinars by Barry and Brian Schiff, Charlie Precourt, Russell Still, at a minimum. Oh, and for a cheap and safe way to practice and see how changing parameters such as wind, runway length, DA, startle factor, etc. affects the outcome, fly it in a simulator. Again, it will help develop some of the muscle memory needed for "success".
Prop Stop glide only works on airplanes with a Vglide speed under the normal 55 knots prop stop speed. I used to teach prop stop landings from a 700 agl base leg on Cessnas (55knots w full flaps). And land Prop Stopped. It is BS it will glide better under the published vglide- which is 70 knots or more on most low wingers. or 60 knots plus on most Cessnas. Many crashes and stalls lowering the Vglide to stop the prop which is mostly at 55knots.
55 knots only works on some LSA's and most will not glide further but be at minimum sink airspeed because the Vglide is higher than 55 knots, not maximum glide but they say on those videos. They say they are at Max Glide at the 55 knots prop stop speed, which is BS. So 55 knots for prop stopped you need on most USA GA. That is under Vglide for 90% of USA GA.
A tail wheel pilot of nearly 40 years told me today to always take off with flaps 10. That in an emergency everyone has a human delay of 5-7 seconds and taking off with flaps 10 will buy you back those 5-7 seconds. What do you guys think?
Those fancy harness, but no headrests? Do people in airplanes not get whiplash?
If you get rear ended in a plane, you've got bigger problems :)
But in all seriousness, a big part of that airplane's utility is aerobatics, and you don't want a head rest in your way when you're looking around. (like imagine the top of a loop when you need to look straight down to be sure you're center box during a contest.)
Another reason to land straight ahead with a strong headwind is the slower ground speed and subsequent lower G force at “impact”…
For sure yes, this is a huge factor. But wind speed becomes moot if your option is a suburban neighbourhood with no where to dissipate the energy laterally… I’d rather face a tail wind on a flat / long surface, but your point is valid.
@@FlightChops😊
Big runway at a 90-ish degree angle from the one you took off, in a real emergency I might aim to land on that one, depending on how much length is left.
At my main airport I have something similar, with long runways. Better to take the turn a bit easier and land on a different runway than to try and crank it around and stall the aircraft. Ofc this doesn't work with a single runway airfield.
You should install rocket boosters for if your engine cuts out near the airport. Just little ones to give you a couple hundred feet. Fix all these silly problems with new sillier ones,.
3:20 how did he manage to get hsi harness twisted like that lol? He's probably strapped into a harness like that 1000 times haha
Just noticed, but in Canada are you not required to read back the takeoff clearance? Do you just have to reply with your tail number?
For the particular calls we are responding to, that is correct. (For instance, if there was a hold short instruction a full read back is required)
In this specific situation, is the continuous right turn to the cross runway a good or a bad idea?
We pretended the cross runway wasn't there - this was a test to see if we could get back to the runway we departed from - in reality, yeah, any good surface should be a target. 👍
@@FlightChops You need an altimeter marker and a full gross Vglide airspeed line to use them quickly with out thinking those numbers. I took GRM Turnbacks first, then on runway on Cherokees.. 1996. It is a Vglide 45 bank turnback. At over the calculated before take off altitude and direction to turn to. It is not a mild 30 bank turn. Geee ! And it is not a 180 too. For No power, It is a Hook Turnback, Shaped also like a question mark. Like this, when made to the right. ?. You need a better CFi THAT KNOWS TURNBACKS WELL, not imagine them and not do them at all..
If Partial Power. The Teardrop Turnback is done only if under 400 agl and only with partial power constant on. If engine surging on and off, drop nose and land forward on best place with shallow turns if under 400. You cannot turnback on most non LSA's under 400 if engine is surging on and off unless some constant power, some power and do A Teardrop Turnback. The Hook Turnback is for over say 700 agl or more andn some wind.
My CFi has a video from 1995 showing 4 kinds of EFATO from 50, 500 and 600 agl with strong winds all landing on 4k long runway with 16 knots winds. All landed on runway. Cherokee 160hp with 2 on board and baggage. No BS. The more emergency maneuvers you know, the better pilot you are.
I used to fly powered, then after a long break went into flying sailplanes. After a while, I started flying ultralights. I found it hilarious how scared people were about engine failures. Then again, some airfields these days are totally unsuitable for single engined aircraft of any sort.
14 year old girls are required and do turnbacks from 250 agl and 45 bank on gliders. Many americans tremble when i demo a spin from 5,000 feet agl or any hard maneuvering emergency like a turnback on an easy to do Cessna from 700 agl with some power. MANY USA GA PILOTS ARE FAKE TIGERS. JUST PAPER TIGERS. Mild Maneuvering Misses.. LOL..
This exercise can be practiced a lot more safely at altitude. Simply align with a cross road or highway, perform the takeoff engine out simulation, and see how much altitude you loose to get back to where you started (then add 1-200 ft for a stopped prop).
IIRC A stopped prop creates less drag than a windmilling one? Though you'd still have to account for the difference between a stopped engine/prop and an idling engine.
@@kaasmeester5903 That only works on airplanes with a Vglide speed under the normal 60 knots prop stop speed. It is BS it will glide better under the vglide. which is 70 knots or more on most low wingers.
Why do you not read back the clearances ??
We’re Canadian; That’s the way it is here. I fly a fair bit in the U.S. so I tend to read back all VFR instructions so I stay in the habit… but it is considered extraneous here unless there is something like a “hold short” as a part of the instruction.
@@FlightChops makes sense. Thanks for the reply. I wasn’t sure how different it was up there in Canada vs here in Oklahoma.
I do 300 feet all day long with my students. Depends on the aircraft and DA
Thanks for a nice video. Would have been nice to see you veer right off runway heading in the climb, to put you on reverse runway heading after the 180 (avoiding the ? shaped return path) You probably would have made the 600 agl. Also would have been good to see the bank angle, if you recorded it. And your speed through the turn. Thanks again.
It's all recorded yeah - and the cloudahoy debrief shows it fairly well if you watch 4K during the replay around the 10 min mark.
Regarding turning off runway heading - we were trying to simulate a straight out departure, so we didn't want to be set up with any sort of "advantage".
@@FlightChopsLooks like about 40 degrees bank? But 80 knots airspeed seems pretty high; is that best glide? Excess speed really increases your turn radius.
@@atg197 good points
Such a cool plane that’s the one Red Bull uses
At a glance, the RV-14 does have a similar profile to an Extra 330, but it’s far less capable in terms of aerobatics. So while my airplane is great fun, it is not as much fun as what Red Bull flys.
@@FlightChops oh good to know
When I practiced these 20 years ago in a PA28-181 was to pre brief to note wind direction, then during the maneuver, push hard to maintain airspeed, but pull the flaps lever for full flaps and steep turn into the wind and then keep the nose down as you let the flaps out if you need more glide. Eyes on the airspeed.
You need an altimeter marker and a full gross Vglide airspeed line to use them quickly with out thinking those numbers. I took GRM Turnbacks first, then on runway on Cherokees.. 1996. It is a Vglide 45 bank turnback. At over the calculated before take off altitude and direction to turn to. It is not a mild 30 bank turn. Geee ! And it is not a 180 too. For No power, It is a Hook Turnback, Shaped also like a question mark. Like this, when made to the right. ?. You need a better CFi THAT KNOWS TURNBACKS WELL, not imagine them and not do them at all..
Partial Power. The Teardrop Turnback is done only if under 400 agl and with partial power constant on. If engine surgin on and off, drop nose and land forward on best place with shallow turns if under 400. You cannot turnback on most non LSA's under 400 if engine is surging on and off unles some constant power, some power and Teardrop Turn. The Hook Turnback is for over say 700 agl or more if wind.
My CFi has a video from 1995 showing 4 kinds of EFATO from 50, 500 and 600 agle with strong winds all landing on 4k long runway with 16 knots winds. All landed on runway. No BS.
are you a BOT? I'm scrolling through some of the comments, and you have posted the same response at least 7 times??
@@treetopflight7624 3 Times only. Dont exaggerate. Pilots dont exaggerate. That is a bad trait.
I did extensive sim testing in war thunder for low altitude engine out returns to base years ago. Ended up that staying aligned with the runway, pulling straight up into a hammerhead, and recovering into a flare was the only way at very low altitudes.
I don’t think a hammer after an engine failure on the climb out is gonna go well in real life 😂 that sounds like an epic spin entry at 700 AGL to me. 🤓
You are FOS. That will mostly make you stall and die. LOL..
@@FlightChops He is FOShSS..
Good video and always important to practice. But you should also consider the much higher stress load when real engine out. Not only those 3s until first reaction. But will you be able to fly a tight turn with slow speed without succumbing to the lure of have to reach that direction for landing without stalling? Most crashes happen right there, when people try too hard to get back. It is not that you would be cool as ice in the real thing. Its very likely you won’t hear the stall warning or any other sound than your heartbeat.
It is good advice to check your surrounding area before for possible options.
Hmm why didn't you guys say "cleared for takeoff 25" ever? Are you not required to read that back in Canada? That was drilled into me by my instructor here in USA.
Yes, it is a Canadian thing.
My plane has a glide ratio of 11/1 meaning if I were 600ft AGL and I kept the perfect glide speed, plane would travel 6600 ft foward going straight, making turns would definitely travel less!
Yup. This is why it is important to know the performance of your specific airplane AND to build in a buffer to account for less than perfect flying when you’re under pressure.
@@FlightChops great advice
I always brief engine outs, but only recently did I brief an "above 1000AGL" turn back. I'm working on my CPL so it's a req. Otherwise, best glide and suitable location within 30 degrees. Where I fly out of, for one runway I brief a specific street as it is the ONLY possible landing location off that runway. The rest of the runways face fields so that is less challenging.
I notice you always seem to turn left when doing the test, that might be another thing to brief as well. If the airport property is mirrored of Windsor then turning left would be the worst option.
Good point - the briefing should include the direction of a turn back with wind and airport lay out factored in
It always amazes me that folks spend 10’s of thousands on a glass panel, yet still use an iPad. Think I’ll stick with my steam gauges and ForeFlight.
08:22 You dont climb shallow at cruise climb, you climb well, at Vy. And dont turn shallow at 30 bank like 09:35, You turn Vglide 45 bank. Or 40 bank if strong winds or afraid of 45 bank. Dont be afraid and push left pedal when stress. Tha tis called Panic Pedal. I learned turnbacks on Cherokees in 1996.
About pressing the left pedal when nervous, That is called "The Panic Pedal Syndrome". That is why so many crash on take off, landings and go arounds where they crash or hit things on left side of runway. They press the left pedal without noticing it.
My CFI of 1996 noted that while teaching EFATO and Aerobatics. Seen many doing that on videos. They press the right pedal too, but the left pedal pressure dont let the right rudder pedal go down. They end up pressing both pedals. But the left pedal panic dont let the righ pedal been pushed well. Then they blame the mechanic.
Some times they breack the whole system pushing hard both pedals. And sue he manufacturer "for building a weak part. The legs are very strong. And will break the pedals assembly.
Have you performed a low pitch stop adjustment? It’ll glide much better after making the adjustment. Basically to see if you need to make an adjustment, you want to verify that you can achieve 2700RPM in flight, and yet statistically before takeoff, (flaps up, brakes held) you go full throttle and should only get 2600-2650 rpm. If you are making more than 2650, then you need to adjust the low pitch stops under the spinner. Another obvious sign that you need an adjustment is that your engine may surge on takeoff when adding throttle quickly.
Edit: I see you only make 2650 on takeoff.. is that because the prop governor is set too low? Why yellow at 2650? Isn’t the limit 2700? I didn’t think the IO-390 has a yellow caution range. The proper setup is 2650 because the low pitch stops are controlling it, not because the governor is set too low. You should raise the governor rpm, then increase the low pitch stop angle to hold static rpm at 2650.
I am pretty sure we did this correctly, but I'll look into it - thanks for the insights.
As or the yellow - it is all customizable, and it made sense to have yellow before red, and red is at 2700
@@FlightChopsI get the desire to maybe put a cushion before the red, but in aviation, the yellow means caution, and there’s usually a time limitation associated with it (2 or 5 minutes). I set up mine to still be normal up to, and including 2700. Then I set the red at 2750. You could set the red at 2710, but the point is you should make 2700 in the climb out for safety purposes, and 2700 isn’t red.
I would venture that most mechanics don’t know about the low pitch stop adjustment and just install the prop out of the box, then tweak the governor setting and call it done. It’s been my experience that the Hartzell props need the Allen bolt turned in (clockwise) 2 and 1/3 turns to get it set right. You’ll thank me after with much better power off glides, safer in the event of an engine or governor failure, or the prop won’t run away incase of oil pressure loss..
Shouldn’t you be finding the minimum turn back altitude on a calm wind day? Did you pitch for best glide, and what bank angle was used? Need some back stick force to keep the airspeed from increasing, right? Also tightens turn radius. Fun video!
Calm winds needs- for no power turnback need to climb at over 800 fpm. And better a non short runway. No tailwind to bring you back. but sometimes a 4knot at the surface=calm winds, can mean 10 knots at 500 or 1k agl..
Instead of the impossible turn, why not just circle and land on the runway heading you took off from? Looks like you had enough altitude to do that.
Can you explain more thoroughly what you’re suggesting? Because the way I’m reading it you’re suggesting a power off pattern to return to the same runway we departed? (Did you watch the whole video?)
@@FlightChops What I mean is, you took off from Rwy 25, but came back to land on 07 (the "impossible turn"). Have you tried taking off from Rwy 25 and circle to land back on rwy 25. You'll probably be landing on the last half or last 3rd of the rwy, but still enough runway remaining at that point?
I’ve never heard of attempting a power off 360. In most cases you are lucky to make the 180+~90 to maneuver and land with a tail wind. Did you watch the whole video? I share the data in pretty clear detail.
@@FlightChops Yes I did, and it was a great video! The reason I asked about it, is because I had a partial engine failure with complete loss of thrust in a light sport taking off a fairly short runway with only houses ahead of me about a year ago. Looking for a place to land, the runway was right behind me, but I would have overshot it, and run off the end of it into a large body of water if I would have done a 180, so I flew parallel to the runway and turned onto the runway once I had reached the lowest possible altitude to do that, and it worked out great - maybe beginner's luck! I've never seen it done in any video, which is why I was asking the question. It was in the winter, so maybe if it would have happened in the summer, the high density altitude would have probably affected that.
@@junetebarts1334 I used to teach partial power turnbacks and turnaround the airport too. You had partial power, low density alt. A light sport. The tend to climb at over 800 fpm, are light and most keep alt if loose one cylinder. from say, over 600 agl, most can turnaround instead of having to turnback to other runway. But that also depends if engine is surging rpm or noises. If engine seems not to last,or steady power, it is better to turnback instead of delaying the landing and going to downwind leg, and base leg. I have a playlist of EFATo and landings after turnback or turnaround the airport which are different maneuvers, even when the ignorants call them the same, which is BS.
Just watching your practice runs is scary as hell....
It can seem scary but at no point where we anywhere near asking more of the wing than it could give us.
Dan Gryder say to never turn at all if any engine problem, even from 1k feet agl on a Cessna 172 easy to turnback. To crash in front all times, NO TURNS. Really? LoL. I know 3 friends that turned back from as low as 300 agl with partial power and avoided crashing on houses and cars. he is FOS, the more maneuvers you know, the better pilot you are. Ignorance kills, practicing saves you.
You haven’t been listening all that well then. It’s not that simple, and he doesn’t present it that way.
@@colinwallace5286 BS. I do and 2 of my friends old CFI's been following him for years until he got into Drama and LIes This year. He says very clear in last few months "STRAIGHT AHEAD, THERE IS NO LEFT OR RIGHT" on any engine emergency after take off. Even from 1k agl. What part of that is not clear. Lately even make lies about pilots turning when they didnt. That cherokee 6 in that video was stalled straight ahead and due some power it stalled to the left. HE SAYS THE PILOT TRIED A TURNBACK-- Hey, FROM 100 agl? That is BS. Dont cover his BS. How much is he paying you for that?
@@colinwallace5286 Yes im. I used to like him. Me and my CFI friends used to like him, but last year or so he is been saying BS and Drama Queen too to get views. Blancolirio dont like him anymore. F himm.
so… watching the first one that was successful, I am guessing initial maneuver is 220 degree turn with a 40 degree turn back to the runway. I think that is what he is referring to by “its not even a 180 impossible turn, its more than that, how much do you think that is” goes unanswered.
Keep watching :)
@@FlightChops I know I know... hahah... I always see there aren't any comments yet and can't help myself but to chime in before I see the whole thing. I did watch till the end, not a terribly long video. Just had to get in the comment section early.
That copilot is sooo scared and insecure of the Vglide 45 Turnback. He needs to practice lots more. Do first The Vglide speed level turbacks. After flying along a highway, flyover a spot, get room for turnback and flyover again at Vglide 45 bank level until you get used to turnbacks, then do the EFATO after.
Good to learn them on GRM Turnbacks first. Many accidents when doing GRM turnbacks, and Box Canyon turnbacks and Circling Turnbacks. Ignorance is not the solution. Ignorance is the problem that causes accidents..
Great video. But guys RT! You need to read back takeoff clearances. Ok no harm this this time but best to set good habits and a good example.
It is understandable that there's confusion about this due to the differences in FAA and Transport Canada regs, but that's the procedure here, within the context of the communications you're seeing. (However, "hold short" instructions for instance DO need to be read back in full.)
At the end of the day, the physics of this problem are all about ANGLES. Climb angle, wind angle, descent angle, bank angle, and such. Everyone gets all hung up about a minimum altitude but the question, grossly simplified, is really did you have a climb angle well in excess of your descent angle. If you can’t answer that question you shouldn’t be turning back.
In college I wrote a computer code which completely solved this problem. You could put in the variables for everything, runway geometry, aircraft performance, pilot performance and it would find the minimum altitude and performance numbers to make it happen. I used the code and practiced the maneuver many times and from all that experience I’ve come to the point now where I’m rarely if ever willing to turn back.
Not much more dangerous out there than an amateur test pilot. Consider your limited knowledge, ability, and testing capability before you go off playing Chuck Yeager.
Be careful out there…
Dan Gryder sez: GO STRAIGHT
Even if all you have in front of you is a residential area? Dan’s an intolerant ambulance chaser.
Military pilot here...there is no way if this is actually unexpected.... sorry.
@3:38 - no read back what so ever...
While I tend to read back VFR clearances and instructions, they are not required (unless including a "hold shot", etc) other than to acknowledge with the tail number, as Luke did.
He's a senior flight instructor, and certified flight test examiner - his procedures are solid.
yeah I also noticed they never read back any cleared for takeoff or to land after the 1st go around. You'd be getting an earful from any CFI
Rules might be different in the U.S. but in Canada acknowledging those specific VFR calls with just the tail number are the correct procedure. That said, I'm not as experienced as Luke, and I do tend to read back more IFR style just to be extra thorough.
@@FlightChops I believe readback is mandatory VFR in the US, but it's not in Canada. I personally prefer to read everything back to make sure I heard right. It's saved me a few times from stupid so I will always recommend read back. Only time I'll answer with just my call sign is when I'm clear to land with no additional instructions from tower.
According to the Canadian Aviation Regulations (SOR /96-433), pilots are required to read back any air traffic control (ATC) clearance to the appropriate air traffic control unit if they are flying under Instrument Flight Rules (IFR). For Visual Flight Rules (VFR) flights, pilots are only required to read back an ATC clearance if the air traffic control unit requests it. Pilots should read back parts of ATC clearances that include runway assignments, vectors, or altitude assignments to verify that they and the air traffic controllers understand each other.
His strap is twisted and it annoys me.
He is very scared of EFATO and low maneuvering.. LOL.
It’s irresponsible flying.
Straight ahead
If you're going to make a statement like that, please offer some value with insights to explain.
No, it’s not. There are some conditions where you can safely turn back. It depends on the winds (ideally a crosswind situation) and of course altitude.
Promoting such actions to low time pilots / inexperienced pilots that may be watching your channel can bring them unstuck quickly. That’s a fact.
This is not a realistic trial.
The runway is very long.
The impossible turn is impossible from virtually all standard municipal airports.
If you look closely at what is going on during the 800' AGL test we were lined up well beyond the departure end and would have touched down probably with in ~2000' of India, where we'd departed from (Thus a ~2000' runway would have worked, but you've inspired me to run the actual numbers to determine what the shortest runway we could have departed from, and made it back to would have been).
Regardless, from 600' AGL we couldn't even get lined up, let alone make it back to the runway we departed from, so length is moot in that case, and that is the key data I was looking to collect here.
Why do you and other CZcamsrs use the term "content" for the videos you make and the stories you tell. "Content" is the derisive term that advertising people use to describe the stuff they tack their ads onto. It implies that its value isn't the stories it tells or the beautiful way that it might do it, rather it is just "content", just "stuff", a vehicle for ads. I think you owe it to yourself and other videographers and story tellers to stop using that term and refer to your art with more self respect.
I… think there’s a complement in there..?
Anyway, my take on it is that this is largely about semantics. Personally, the term “content” doesn’t bother me. But interestingly, being called a “CZcamsr” does bug me, and you’ll never hear my call myself an “influencer”.
But “content creator” or simply “creator” is something I do consider myself.
This is NOT realistic and doesn’t NOT simulate a loss of thrust on takeoff. The last person who made videos like this attempted to return after engine trouble and it didn’t end well.
It wasn't intended to simulate that. 🤷♂️
@@owensparks5013. It says right in the beginning of the video they’re testing multiple scenarios. These are based on the title scenarios where an engine is lost on takeoff and attempt is made to return to the runway which results in low altitude stall/spin and death 90% of the time.. it is lunacy to practice it
I call BS on that comment. Maintaining airspeed in a turn is a basic skill taught before you even solo. Impossible turn at an appropriate altitude is no different than any other emergency procedure a pilot should now.
Come on Chops. You Know Better.
GO STRAIGHT AHEAD. The second the scenario commences, the airplane belongs to the ins. co. Go straight ahead. If you are 2000 agl you can shop for a place.
I believe in Aqp. And. Stick and rudder by Wolfgang L.
Did you watch this episode? I'm not worried about saving the airplane... Straight ahead from Runway 25 here is almost certainly going to be fatal AND means you're likely taking civilians with you.