Monday Night Meatloaf 13 Leftovers
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- čas přidán 28. 07. 2024
- Well it looks like we had some leftovers from Monday nights meatloaf. In this installment we reheat the countersink sharpening discussion and show how the zero flute or Weldon type countersinks work and how with very simple tools this type of countersink can be sharpened.
- Věda a technologie
Hi Tom...
Err...never thought of dressing a handheld power tool stone....nice lesson there!
Thank you
Chuck
Hey Chuck,
I do it every time I brush my teeth.
Best,
Tom
A friend of mine who is a Machinist showed me how to sharpen these in a similar way, what he does different is to have his stone enter the hole from the high side that way there is less chance of rocking over the edge and more of the stone stays in contact with the counter sink.
Hi Tom,
Great explanation on the Weldon countersinks! I have never tried to sharpen one but now I might give it a try after watching you do it with success. Thanks for taking the time to show us!
Reid
Hey Reid,
Thanks for the comment. I learned something myself. The relief was not what I originally thought. Now all I'm thinking about is weird relief fixtures and tooling.
Cheers,
Tom
Tom, thank you! I always wondered how to dress those tools. Great video.
I am quite fond of the "hole in the side" type for wood working! I have never used them for wood working where I often use a simple drill bit.. ;o) Good visual on the relief!
Hi Wood,
Thanks for the comment and participation.
Cheers,
Tom
What an excellent video! I have often wondered how to sharpen this type of counter sink! Thanks for posting this!
Hi Jake,
Thanks for the comment.
Best,
Tom
I'll be able to save some counter sinks now. Thanks for the tip.
Hey Wyatt,
Thanks for the comment.
Best,
Tom
Very good video. I use Weldon's zero flute countersinks pretty much exclusively. This was helpful. Thank you.
I've finally decided to sharpen my DB-48, as in the video. Used a Foredom TX with a quick change handpiece along with some stones. Cuts beautifully. Can't thank you enough for the tips.
Not sure which I enjoy more, your videos or the trailing credits!
Well nice job on explaining the proper way to sharpen these. Now you also end up with some sharp countersinks. I have a bunch I could probably sharpen now. Thanks
Hi Steve,
Thanks for the comment.
Cheers,
Tom
Thanks for sharing that with us Tom. I have a few of the Weldon countersink tools but I dont use them often. Good tip on sharpening the cutting edge.
Adam
Hey Adam,
I bet you have a bigger one than I showed in the video. Feeling any better?
Cheers,
Tom
I don't have a Weldon bigger than that, but I do have some nice sized multiflutes. Felt pretty bad today so I took a sick day. Hope I can go back into work tomorrow.
Get well buddy. Were waiting for some more video's. I know you got some up your sleeve over there.
Best,
Tom
Hi Tom,
Thanks for addressing the honing aspect.
I believe you stated these devices are "cam" ground. I chucked an 82 degree M.A. Ford single lip in my lathe and set up a dial indicator perpendicular to the taper finding it truly was an eccentric grind with only .005 clearance in the grind. The total clearance occurred in about 10-15 degrees of cutter rotation immediately after the cutting lip and then held constant for the remainder of the revolution.
Thanks for a great video.
Hi Fred,
That is interesting, I have to think about that a little. It makes sense that there is relief right behind the cutting edge. My mind says that I don't think you can get there with just a simple eccentric offset although it sounds like that what you measured. I think this calls for a little CAD layout. Meanwhile I'm going to check the Weldon type to see if its the same.
Cheers,
Tom
Pherd Antler 6 words & how they relate
Change: To live is to grow. To grow is to change. If you can't tell the difference between change that leads to Growth & change that does not lead to growth , then your fear of change will inhibit growth. ( quote from Richard Dobbins) The whole world is changing, and we can influence the direction and speed of change.
Control: Control is 100%. Self control is the last fruit of the spirit. We try to control things on the outside of ourselves, but need to focus on the inside.
Influence: Influence is less than 100%. We usually do this by speaking up. Influence is like shooting a gun, just a small amount of change in direction of aim on the gun's end makes a large difference at the target. If we are patient and keep making small changes, we can turn the whole thing around.
Power: We associate power with authority. The power authority has comes from the position of authority. The use of one's influence can usually be more powerful than using the power of position. I believe influence has the most power.
Authority: Authority usually has limits of jurisdiction, except for God, who has all power and authority. I believe that most people in positions of authority got there by using their influence and that they maintain those positions by using their influence. I believe that when authorities only use the power of their position, that they begin to loose power. Using the power of ones position seems to work best in times of crisis, emergency, or war. I grew up with a mildly abusive authoritative father, so I try to get on their good side. I have questioned authority and still think that is ok. I have been asked, "are you questioning my authority?" I like to ask "are you an authority who cannot be questioned?" At that point we may both be defensive. I have tried to be assertive in these kinds of events, but also have been characterized as "being a smart aleck".
Motivations: Fear or love.
Hitler knew he could use love to motivate people, but he chose to use fear, because the outcome is more predictable. People will do what they have to do. Fear give us tunnel vision. The only thing we can see is the problem. So when we are afraid, look around for better options. They are there.
When people are motivated by love, they become unpredictable. That sounds negative but is not, because when motivated by love we come up with all kind of unpredictable and creative ways to get things done.
Sounds like it could be duplicated reasonably well "by eye" by turning the cone in the lathe, and then plunging the stone of a tool post grinder (might take some fussing with the compound to get the grinder mounted at the appropriate angle), in to cut 270 deg of relief by manually turning the headstock of the lathe - and then blend the last 90 degrees by hand.
Or with the spindexer on the table of the surface grinder...
Or, just order a new 5 pc. set from MSC for $63.35.
But, what's the fun in that?
Pherd Antler n
Nice vid Tom, I have a few and it will be good to store this info when needed in the future.
Hi Glenn,
Thanks for the comment.
Cheers,
Tom
Hi Tom,
Thanks for the counter sink sharpening tips.
Now I can go digging into my junk box to find and sharpen all the dull ones I have been throwing in it over the years...... Gotta be 4 or 5 in there.
George
Hey George,
Good deal. Like a good machinist you never threw away the old dull ones. We are all pretty much pack rats. If its shiny and tool steel it has to be worth saving. I bet you have a little box of round steel ball bearing too.
Cheers,
Tom
A Weldon countersink also makes a fantastic cut in wood. I have used your technique in the past to put an almost razor sharp edge on it. Great video.. Thanks- Fred
Hi Fred,
Never tried one in wood. The edge on the weldon is pretty scary sharp out of the tube.
Cheers,
Tom
Thanks Tom!
All the best, Chuck
Hi Chuck,
Thanks for the comment.
Best,
Tom
Hey Sir Tom,
Thanks for the tip of using dial test indicator was so helpful on carbon steal cut but the heat of brass was the problem once I coool it down things goes so great and I got that desired reading at last i appreciated ur help regards sir:)
Hi Raul,
You bring up a good point. Brass and copper bearing alloys expand more per degree of temperature rise than steels of the same size. Its best practice to try to take you measurements at roughly the same temperature.
Cheers,
Tom
Hi Ox, been a subscriber for a while, and enjoy your vids.
Great little treatise on countersink sharpening.
In my experience, the relief on a counter sink was known as being "cammed-on".
KO Lee cutter grinders had a fixture that mounted on the grinder, and was belt driven by the workhead.
The workhead would pivot against spring pressure, it's motion dictated by a cam that was attached to the workhead.
The high point of the counter sink cutting edge had to be timed to the high point of the cam, as well as the starting point in relation to the grinding wheel.
It was a slick operation, once you had it set up.
Duck
Hi Duck,
This is how I imagined the relief is created. There are many examples of cam relieving fixtures in the tool and cutter grinding industry. I looked on ebay and there was a Weldon Circular form sharpening fixture. It had a cam with a very slight relief on it which is what you might see on a countersink.
Cheers,
Tom
If I had to sharpen many of those, I think I would get some machinable expanding collets. If the countersink was mounted on a lathe or spindexer, and the Dremel was mounted on a cross slide with the spindle parallel to the axis of the spindexer, I think you would have a pretty good jig for resharpening these. Bring the Dremel stone up to the edge and rotate the countersink. Probably not too many resharpenings in these, as the geometry of the edge would change as the internal hole got bigger.
My favorite countersink was a multi-flute on which the intervals between the flutes were all different. (Sort of like the 10-14 TPI variable-pitch bandsaw blades that are said to reduce chatter and vibration (and noise)). I've never seen another countersink like that in any catalog. Very smooth cutting at all speeds from hand-twisting up to normal SFM for the material being worked. The only countersink I've ever used that NEVER gave me a triangular hole. (Over the years I have had to work with a lot of very sloppy machinery. Getting better now.)
Very useful there. A little tip you might like to try. put the dremel in the vice and hold the countersink, you can get a very light touch then. Put it in the vice for honing though.
Hi Caskwith,
Excellent comment. Many times its better to clamp the tool than the part. I thought about using the easier to clamp Foredom tool but figured more folks would have a Dremel.
All the best,
Tom
really diggin your channel, between you and adam in FLA im getting the bug to make some more videos. thank you !
Hi Guns,
Thanks for the comment.
Cheers,
Tom
I have found Eze Lap diamond hones work nicely for precisely dressing or reshaping those small mounted stones.
Hi Dradef,
Excellent suggestion. Never thought about it. They are nice and small and relatively inexpensive. I'm going to try that one out for sure.
All the best,
Tom
In aviation we call that kind of a tool a "rose bud" we use them for deburring holes. in aluminum aircraft structure. we use a different kind of tool for countersinking. we use a caged 100 degree countersink
Hi Bob,
Thanks for the comment. The caged 100 degree depth control countersinks are used mainly on the skin structures if I'm not mistaken. They are intended to be used in a hand tool where accurate depth control is needed. I have a bunch of the countersinks for these as well as the cage. The countersinks have a 1/4-28 thread to mate to the cage, A clever solution for millions of precision countersinks done on the assembly floor.
Thanks for sharing.
Cheers,
Tom
Hello Tom. Thank you for sharing your expertise with us. I would just point out (and maybe somebody already have) that when you use the surface gauge,sometimes the shadow is a good/better indicator than the tip itself. Sorry for my bad english from Norway. Odd Geir
Hey Odd,
I have never thought to look at the shadow. I'll have to try that one. Thanks for the comment.
Cheers,
Tom
Thanks Tom! I've never seen a countersink like that one before. Ingenious design. At first glance it looks like it would be easy to make...just turn a cone and drill a hole, but that spiral relief complicates things a bit. If you were going to make one, would you need an indexing table coupled to the motion of the mill table? So you can rotate in sync with movement into the cutter?
I realize it's cheaper to just buy one, but all these videos have gotten me looking at the "how would you do that?" aspect of the things I see.
Hi Hammer,
All this talk about countersinks and circular relief has me thinking also. I think I have a way to do it on the cheap. I warms my heart to hear that you have been infected with the curiosity bug. This is what I think makes it all fun. Sometimes just thinking about a problem can be deeply satisfying.
Cheers,
Tom
Mmm, leftovers are always the best.
Can Weldon countersinks be used as reverse countersinks? Like countersinking a hole on the bottom of the work, pulling up, using the topside of the countersink. The part next to the shank.
Tom since I live in Vegas and there is only one used equipment store in the whole valley I can buy drill rod on my retirement check locally. That would be great learning experience for a self taught machinist.
Thanks. Dan
Hi Dan,
What equipment do you have in your shop? Can you grind and heat treat there?
Best,
Tom
The point looks like a snails shell, maybe thats why they sometimes call them snail countersink.
Another way to sharpen one and retain the important relief angle would be to mount it in the lathe, set it up for a fine thread and use a toolpost grinder with the compound set to the countersinks angle, then bring grinder in till it cuts and thread towards the chuck by hand, repeat at a few locations by moving the compound along, its fussy but I believe the machine that made these used a template with a follow controlling the grinder, regards oliver and great vid
Hi Oliver,
Sounds like it might work. Somebody else measured a single flute type and the relief measured eccentric. I'm still thinking about this one to make sense of it in my mind.
Cheers,
Tom
Mm I was thinking about an eccentric one aswell but your one looked like a helix thus more of a thread on its outside face, would be a mind bender to try and repeat it tho, cheers oliver
Thnaks for ur replay sir tom . Actual lam I'm having trouble with the desired reading cut while cutting on brass and alumminum that's really make me crazy ur highs is highly appreciated , thnks
Hi Raul,
Try checking a couple of things. For the lathe make sure your tool is on center accurately. Hone the cutting edge like I show in the toolbit development video's. Use an indicator on your cross slide to make sure you are actually moving what your dial tells you. Verify all this and correct any errors you find and let me know the results.
Cheers,
Tom
Would these be ideal for wood? Redwood to be specific. I bought some countersink bits from General and Ryobi. Both of them caused chipping. I also put them in my drill press.
Is this style of countersink better than the multi toothed ones for metal in general? I keep getting chatter even at very low rpm's and was wondering if I should get myself a set of these.
Thanks-a lot of really helpful info, but now I have a couple of follow-up questions:
1. Since you have both types, when would opt to use a Weldon zero-flute and when would you choose a single-flute? Do have a general preference?
2. What's the deal with 6-flute "chatterless" countersinks? Do they work any better or any worse than the other two? Are they really chatterless?
3. And finally, which type of countersink do you find works best on Aluminum?
Hi Bx,
All good questions. In general I prefer the single flute or MA Ford Uniflute type. The reason is they are generally faster cutting. We used to do a lot of 316 stainless and I learned to like these single flute types there for their free aggressive non chattering qualities. The zero flute Weldon type work well but are not as aggressive. The chips tend to pack in the hole making it necessary to clear them sometimes. On the multiflutes like 4 or six I don't have a good answer for you. I have some and they come out when I'm having some kind of chatter problem in a particular material. For aluminum everything works. My measure is if it works in stainless, inconel and tantalum, aluminum is not even on my radar. You have heard my saying right? "Everybody is a hero in aluminum"
Good questions.
All the best,
Tom
Hi mate. I have been reading some of the comments, but have not seen this question, so it's most likely rather mindless. Could you spin the counterbore the opposite way, and sharpen it that way, provided that there are no humongus burrs on the inside? I had not seen this one before, don't know how that can be though.
Hi Tom I have access to a grinder and heat treating. Would be great project.
Thanks Dan
As an aside, John/Doubleboost has a video where he uses a multi-flute countersink as a chamfer cutter on some straight edges, and it appears to work well. Have you ever tried using a uniflute or Weldon countersink to do chamfering?
Hi Bx,
I showed this technique in the steady rest build. I learned it from an old dutch toolmaker. Never tried the Weldon type for that but there should be no reason it wouldn't work.
Cheers,
Tom
The shape is more of a Cam than a spiral, but a very good demonstration!
Many cams ARE spirals.
Couldn't you make a spin fixture with a 1 mm pitch or 24 TPI screw, set the angle against the face of the wheel starting at the cutting edge and turn the knob to feed by the pitch of the screw per revolution of the fixture?
That's it - exactly what I was looking for - great ... thx Tom !
Ha, ha, now you challenge me to find a good method to grind the "cone" so that it preserves it's helical shape ... Oh, Gabriel blow your horn, another new project !
Hi Keld,
Check out Tony's video on the Unigrind
czcams.com/users/featony
Around the 15 min mark he shows some cams for drill sharpening. This is the technique used to create the helical relief on a countersink.
Cheers,
Tom
oxtoolco
Would it be possible to index to the spiral by offsetting it in a 4 Jaw Chuck?
Hi John,
Were not positive its if its helical or an eccentric. Somebody put an indicator on a single flute variety and the relief sounded eccentric. Need to put on my thinking cap.
Best,
Tom
Interestingly, I came across this article from the metal club guys down around Houston (TX). They show how to actually make your own Weldon-type countersink. There's also a link in the article to a U. S. patent describing a similar technique.
www.homemetalshopclub.org/news/12/newsletter1208.pdf#page=7&view=fitH
This is a very cool little article. I like the approach but I think the relief is not the same as a Weldon. The relief described in the article is helical not radial as in the Weldon and MA ford type. I'm sure they work quite well as a good helical relief allows the tool to cut freely. Measure the relief on the countersink it tells the story of how its relieved.
Great post!
Tom
Tom thanks for the video, that was very well done showing the relief. I've never really used the zero flute style CS and the only one I have seen was really small. I remember looking at it and trying to figure out how it worked. I was going to ask what CS you recommend but I see that's been covered below.
Hi Bill,
Thanks for the comment. I should have put an indicator on it also. Somebody else did and the relief might be eccentric. I am still thinking about this one.
All the best,
Tom
oxtoolco
Yeah I read Fred's comment about the single flute. Not sure I understand that completely yet. Perhaps some solid modeling....
Could you not sharpen the conical face by grinding in the lathe with a 1 or 2mm feed engaged while rolling the spindle over by hand?
Hi Spencer,
That might work. An alternative might be a spinner in the surface grinder with stops set. Thanks for the comment.
Cheers,
Tom
Hi Tom,
when you sharpen the tools with that stone, looks like you are dong that with a drystone. Does it make a difference to use these stones wet or dry? I thought when a wetstone is used, the stonepowder and the water act like a polishing emulsion. What`s our idea?
Hi Chippie,
There are multiple schools of thought and preferences on this. Without starting a flame war I would just say I'm in the dry camp for these kinds of things.
Best,
Tom
Very interesting, and yes, it looks like a countersink. What about the meatloaf?
Open the refrigerator. Its in the foil.
Best,
Tom
I know this is is years old, but that is strange way to sharpen countersinks, you need a T&C grinder, in which case you grind the taper which also removes any concave ware
When they are made is it really a straight through hole or some other geometry? You can see a ridge behind the cutting edge but I wonder if it is straight before they add that? Great vid! Nice TUE surprise.
Hi Jim,
The hole is counterbored slightly. My guess is to give that final edge on the tool after making the big hole. The ridge appears to be concentric with the main hole. I'm pretty confident its just what it looks like a straight hole at an angle.
Cheers,
Tom
I can't find the view about sharpening a drill bit for counter sinking. Could you please steer me in the right direction
Great video Tom. Maybe it would make a good project to show how to make one out of 01 tool steel or drill rod? What editing software do you use?
Thanks Dan
Hi Rocky,
Boy you're going to make me work here. I can't think of a good reason to make a countersink. Knowing how to sharpen one you snag out of the scrap bin however is a worthwhile exercise. Thanks for the comment. Would you actually make a countersink? What's next drill bits?
Cheers,
Tom
Hi Tom and all, it realy depends on the job, for short runs and hand drill deburring
I still prefer the multiflute as they don't tend to die as quickly in the one spot you are using but you do have to run them slow!
The custom angle drill would be great for larger numbers of parts and I have used that in the past for stupid, small, internal tapers lol, gotta hate engineers!!
Biggest countersinking challenge I have faced was an oddball 50 degree included
angle for special 3/4-10 socket flat heads that secure AR 400 consumable wear plates in a metal baling machine for a scrap recycling plant
MSC did not even list a tool for that job period LOL
AR 400 is just barely machinable with high speed so I made a custom insertable single flute cutter that uses TCMT type inserts.
Have also made a similar 82 degree tool that is on size for 1" flatheads, that and some odd ball angle dovetail cutters.
The TCMT inserts work realy well for these custom tools and I usualy put the center of the insert on the center of the tool which puts the cutting edge above center somewhat, works great!!
PS its real nice to have Mastercam and CNC equipment to make the insert pockets
LOL
Love your stuff keep it up!!!
Hi Tom: Sorry to ask a stupid question but what angle of are the most common countersink bits 60,82 or 90 degree? I need a good set of them... Have fun...Kevin...
Hi Kevin,
Actually a good question. So I like to have 90's and 82's most of the time. This covers most inch and metric fasteners and the typical chamfering work. That said I have everything. Just get a couple of sizes of each in 90 and 82 and fill in the rest when the need comes up.
Best,
Tom
is there name for that tube ?
be handing to buy 100 pk
Excellent! You probably just save a bunch of folks some money and/or put a tool back into service! Thanks for the sharing of some valuable information! :o]
O,
Good day sir I'm just having a problem serious one..! HOW TO GET THE DESIRE READING LAST CUT TEQUNIQUEON LATHE AND MILLING that's really drive me crazy considering backlash and all troubles and till this day I can't get that ability to make the desired reading cut plz ur help is needed sir and thanks😘✋
Hi Raul,
The technique will depend on your equipment and the specifics of the job including material and cutting tools. Now you can do a lot with some inexpensive indicators and good tool sharpening practice. If you can give a specific example I may be able to offer some specific help.
Cheers,
Tom
Metal spinning.
Just a note, might be a good idea to not have mail addresses on your whiteboard
Hi Devil,
Thats why its there. So folks can contact me but the phishing bots don't hook onto it.
Cheers,
Tom
ah that explains :)
Those style countersinks suck in a bridgeport mill unless you want to retram the head after you use one!!!!!
If you watch your own vids carefully you will see the spindle wandering around all over the the place in relation to the workpiece!!!
They work great in a very rigid setup or for deburring with a hand drillmotor but in my
opinion otherwise worthless!
Don't get me wrong I love your stuff but I don't use these anymore AT ALL LOL
Hi Gent,
You are right on that one. I think I mentioned the wandering in the vid and to chuck them in a collet for best possible results. When their in a chuck its waggle time. So what do you use? 82 degree spotting drills or $35 each inserted OSG chamfer tool? Hey a good reason to sharpen a drill for 82 degrees. Symmetric flute loading.
All the best,
Tom
Why is it that so many machinists make up their own vocabulary for shit? After 25 years of carving metal, I have run into dozens of people that make up their own nomenclature for things. The only way to sharpen a Weldon countersink is to regrind the outside profile at the 3 deg angle. This requires a cam setup. Grinding out the flute hole may get some further use out of it, but it is a stopgap measure until it can be replaced. Otherwise, the fixture requires a cam follower on the tool grinder. Not a hard process, but a correct sharpening on these doesn't touch the flute hole. Chipping like that means you're running the cutter too fast for the material being machined.
Hi Deathfrogg,
The relief is circular on a weldon countersink. Enlarging the hole does actually give you a proper edge. A bump fixture on the belt sander would work to redress the relief. Vocabulary? Carving metal? So you're a chisel and knife kind of metalworker. Not sure what you mean when you say that. If you were more specific about the burr under your saddle maybe we could talk about it intelligently. Till then thanks for the comment.
Cheers,
Tom
Hi Tom I have access to a grinder and heat treating. Would be great project.
Thanks Dan
Hi Dan,
You will be pleased to know that I have been thinking of relief grinding and how a home shop might do it with simple tools or simple to build fixtures. No promises but you might get your wish. Sure I cant interest you in a meatloaf sandwich?
Cheers,
Tom