Return of the Camping Ban? - The Dartmoor Podcast Episode Thirty Three
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- čas přidán 22. 08. 2024
- The Darwalls are back! This time, they are taking their case to the Supreme Court to stop us camping on Stall Moor. What has changed since their last attempt? And how likely are they to succeed?
Here are the links to my earlier podcasts* on the topic:
• Wild Camping Ban on Da... - Camping Ban 2022
• Fighting Back Against ... - Fighting Back Against the Ban 2023
*not podcasts
My Twitter: @DartmoorPodcast
My Facebook: / thedartmoorpodcast
My Instagram: thedartmoorpodcast
My wild camping and birding books: www.amazon.co....
I think this was your best Non Podcast yet. In a time when our rights are being wrenched from us in every walk of life we must all choose on which hill we will make our stand. If this is yours then the best of luck to you.. I hope ,one day, our paths cross on The Moor.
Thank you! Do say hello if you see me bimbling about up there!
Well, maybe those Darth-evils have something to hide and want to keep people away..? How cruel and self-serving they must be - wanting to take people's rights, freedom and nature away! As they make me so disgusted, I'll rather focus on something much more positive - your beautiful, tranquil, meditative shots as well as logical and calm analysis of this situation. Great video, George! 💚x
I've only ever been to Dartmoor to camp, the hiking is secondary, a means to get me to a purple zone and away from other people.
ChatGPT refers to open air recreation as "Open air recreation refers to leisure activities or sports that take place outdoors, typically in natural settings such as parks, forests, mountains, rivers, lakes, or beaches. These activities often involve physical exertion and may include hiking, camping, backpacking, fishing, cycling, kayaking, rock climbing, skiing, snowboarding, birdwatching, picnicking, and more. Open air recreation provides opportunities for people to connect with nature, engage in physical exercise, relax, and enjoy the beauty of the outdoors. It can be pursued individually, with friends or family, or as part of organized groups or clubs"
Even the robots are on our side! Maybe they should wheel a computer into the courtroom and ask for a statement in support of the DNPA.
Ha!
Looking at what has happened at the Suisgill Estate which the Darwalls also own I would guess their plan is to introduce some kind of commercial tourist lodges - glamping wherever possible along with hunting and shooting, said lodges costing some £500+ per week rent at Suissgill. Also worth consideration is the possibility of Lithium mining in the longer term as lots of geological surveys have indicated its presence in and around the old tin workings. The whole issue of litter etc came about due to covid imo as people couldn't travel very far or abroad leading to 'inexperienced' campers etc creating this problem. Considering camping is mentioned in the relevant byelaws my opinion would be that the byelaws intended from the start to include camping as a recreational activity and that this should preclude the banning of the activity in question. As the lawmakers sympathised with the Darwalls predicament regards rubbish etc and suggested the DNPA may want to consider what actions it could or should take to mitigate further anticipated issues regards litter and accessible parking too it may well prove beneficial to the DNPA's case to outline or draft a mitigation plan for all concerned parties.
You may well be right - it's always about the money isn't it! And you're definitely right about the mess covid campers made being used to tar us all with the same brush - I talked about this a bit in my first video on this topic from back in 2022. Thanks for your comment!
Thanks George...I didn't know that people's freedoms were under attack again on Dartmoor.
I wish it were as simple as the Darwalls (not spelt right, and don't care) see that some parts of Dartmoor already don't allow camping, so they want the same rights.
Is it as simple as they're rich, and want their own way? More than likely.
There's an additional truth imho, which when I express it, upsets the algorithm...and my comment vanishes.
Let's just say that there's an exclusive 'club' that knows Dartmoor's secrets, that requires the land be free of pesky, furtive campers, who secrete themselves away during the hours of darkness...
and risk seeing something they're really not supposed to see.
I appreciate your balanced video on the dilemma, and I think it's more heartfelt than most that will follow...I sense a genuine sadness in you, which is present in people who really love the place.
Doh, it seems I did spell their name right 😡. Must do better 🤬.
Yes, I was about to say that! Ha!
"club" .......... i suspect you are right
@@waynus2021 Yes...'eyes wide open ' now... 👀😳
Well said. The voice of reason. Coming across Stall Moor stone row appearing out of the mist was one of the most magical sights of Dartmoor I will never forget.
Ah! I can see the moment in my minds eye - must get out there in the mist, now!
I am from Canada love wild camping.
Awesome! I'm very jealous of your nature, though I'm quite happy that there aren't any scary animals out here on Dartmoor (except those naughty ponies).
Beautifully and eloquently explained to all again. I agree with you with regards the hunting, for me the issue is much closer to the Free Port status announced at roughly the same time as the issue around camping started. I can't put my finger on it fully but I'm guessing this is some kind of tax fiddle. I don't have the time or resources (or understanding) to look into this properly, but that is my theory as to why he'd spend hundreds of thousands continuing this battle.
Ah! As always - follow the money!
@@thedartmoorpodcast The free port status is interesting and does appear to cover the Dartmoor area extending some 75km north from Prawle point, maybe worth checking if the Darwalls have any hedge funds invested in one of the 100 or so miners & associated company types listed at the Cornwall Mining alliance members directory...... At a glance Lithium, Tin, Copper and Tungsten being the metals of interest with Devonport being ideal for outbound bulk mineral and metals shipments, also of interest is the possibility of geothermal energy development. From what I can gather this would mean any energy or resources mined in the area would gain the freeport tax status. Note historical mining interests have frequently run rough shod over public interests in the most despicable ways after the UK enclosures acts. As a hedgefund manager with European and global interests - investments A. Darwall would be ideally placed to invest and profit from all of the above and looking at some of his previous exploits with Novo Nordisc pharmaceutical and diabetes medications its not hard to imagine where this is all leading.
@@thedartmoorpodcast The free port status is interesting and does appear to cover the Dartmoor area extending some 75km north from Prawle point, maybe worth checking if the Darwalls have any hedge funds invested in one of the 100 or so miners & associated company types listed at the Cornwall Mining alliance members directory...... At a glance Lithium, Tin, Copper and Tungsten being the metals of interest with Devonport being ideal for outbound bulk mineral and metals shipments, also of interest is the possibility of geothermal energy development. From what I can gather this would mean any energy or resources mined in the area would gain the freeport tax status. Note historical mining interests have frequently run rough shod over public interests in the most despicable ways after the UK enclosures acts. As a hedgefund manager with European and global interests - investments A. Darwall would be ideally placed to invest and profit from all of the above and looking at some of his previous exploits with Novo Nordisc pharmaceutical and diabetes medications its not hard to imagine where this is all leading.
@@thedartmoorpodcast From what I have read the freeport zone does include large parts of Dartmoor (From Prawle point to some 75km northwards) which would then likely infer a special tax status for many economic outputs in the area such as mining or geothermal energy. Plymouth being a deep water port would also be ideal for bulk shipping of minerals and is also part of the freeport zone. One only has to look at the history of the person in question to guess where this situation may lead.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I’m a teacher and DofE leader who has taken groups of students to Dartmoor for their Gold expeditions. I’m taking a group of teachers wild camping next weekend and this will be their first time wild camping. I can’t wait! I’m also taking 27 students to Dartmoor in June and have found it much more challenging this year to find suitable places for them to camp. The area we can camp on the South moor is so much smaller than it used to be and that is such a shame. It’s so frustrating that one person with money could make such an impact on something that has been taking place for years. Fly campers need to take some of the blame, lighting fires and leaving rubbish doesn’t help our cause. If we can’t camp on Dartmoor then I’ll have to take students to Wales.
Have fun taking the teachers on their first wild camping trip - brave of you not to wait until the summer to induct them! I'm also a teacher and have had some great camping trips with my work buddies. I'd love to do an episode on DofE or Ten Tors at some point in the future.
@@thedartmoorpodcast our first gold expedition is in April and our first silver is next month so we needed to get our trip in before it gets busy. The forecast is for a cold, frosty and clear night. It’ll be a little breezy but hopefully there might be some stars so I’m taking a bivvy bag. I’m sharing a lot of my kit so hopefully they’ll be warm enough. The students doing the Ten Tors are amazing, I’ve been on the north moor and the only people I’ve seen all weekend have been Ten Tors students practising.
Another great 'not a podcast' George. I had no idea that New waste was locked. That was the starting point for the O.A.T.S walk, South to North in a day across Dartmoor, moons ago.
Thank you! Yep, it seems the Darwalls are determined to spoil everyone's fun.
Excellent "Plodcast" sir. I do question who's side the DNPA are on . I remember some time back, when they were attempting to reduce the "wild camping" area......then stopped as Mr D brought his case. But the new revised area was that which they had proposed prior to the case......a little odd don't you think. ! I don't believe in coincidence. Any how.....they will loose I'm glad to say, one way or another.
Interesting! I (perhaps naively) assumed that the D to the N to the P to the A were completely on our side, but it makes sense that they would want a smaller and easier to manage camping area, too.
@@thedartmoorpodcast Oh very much an issue. The very same reduced area they had proposed originally came into force when Mr D won his first case.
@@FiftyandNifty Something dodgy seemed to be going on, also even though the case was won there are still parts that you can't camp on as you could before the case.
Yes....dodgy indeed. People forget that the DNPA were trying to reduce the wild camping area well before Mr D got involved. They had proposed a new "map" of the area.....but came up against resistance. Then, out of the blue Mr D brings a legal challenge......and hey presto.....the new map is now legal ! Well, until it got over turned in appeal court. We shall see where this new legal case takes us.
@@Camped_on_Dartmoor
I wonder if those people want to build houses there once public access is banned. Those types worship money.
This is why balance between the natural world and the civilized world is so important. If everyone would just be satisfied with what is needed more than what is wanted, things would be beneficially different. Development and progress would still happen, but on a far more sane and sustainable level. If I ever have to build my own home from scratch, I’ll try to keep it underground with proper ventilation.
New subscriber here , I think 🤔 it is on a razors edge camping on our loved open moorland .. but not all is lost in the battle, you always save the trump card till last .
Thanks for subscribing! I hope you're right!
I am now fully informed of what’s going on … thanks .
Beautifully shot.
Thanks! Dartmoor does most of the work in that regard.
have a great place for you to visit, Heckwood Quarry, not allowed there but you can sneak across the river and back, it is the old quarry for the breakwater, lots of interesting things there, bellow Vixen Tor
THIS type of thing (among many others) has me very apprehensive about moving to the United Kingdom. Luckily Scotland seems to be a bit better on this...for now.
i agree it’s totally about control, and the maintenance of the class divide. The is a certain type of rich person that thinks they own this country and we just exist in it at their convenience .
Wonderful stuff👍
4:56 Is that Hanger Down clump there in the distance? Been there.
(Edit: never mind, you answered my question mere moments later.)
Ha! Yeah - the first time I'd been there. It was a very peaceful spot - just a little more sheltered from the wind than the surrounding fields and full of birdsong, even in February. I think I'll be back at some point.
@tmoorpodcastIt's a lovely spot. I had relations in the area. Funnily enough neighbours of the Darwalls. My late Uncle wasn't terribly impressed with him. Anyway, can't say anymore about that lest they work out whom I'm referring to. But it's an equally pleasant hike up from Moor Cross. One the way back down once my Uncle rebuked me for sneaking through somebody's private woodland. Like, I'm going to be bothered being from Scotland and all.
Thank you for the update . atb
Fitting to see a discussion of the court judgements set against the backdrop of a sunny February couple of days on the moor. I'm more positive about the outcome at the SC - if the argument really does hang on the English language meaning of open air recreation (minus any listed exclusions) then the only way I can see the case being lost is by having the case heard by a single judge for who the notion of adults camping is entirely alien and bizarre. The court of appeal rightly overturned the original decision on this basis. Various judgements seem to hang on the English language meaning of words in the absence of clear definitions in the legislation - it is surely a limitation therefore that the judiciary are drawn for the most part from such a narrow section of British society. The fear, in this case, is that the London banker's lawyers will pursue some other weasel arguments to distract and prevail.
I agree one hundred percent. There were some really silly, weasely arguments that I left out of this video because they were so daft, including arguing that it couldn't be 'recreation' because you were asleep, and it wasn't 'open-air' because you were in a tent. Luckily the judges weren't in the mood for this nonsense this time round.
I liked the interviews with the two Sith Lords, or Mr and Mrs Darewall as you call them
I feel quite postive about all the Supreme Court stuff actually. There is a part of me that wonders if this is all a smoke screen, actually they are trying to encourage 'backpack' camping (don't like the term 'wild' much), certainly encouraged interest in it after the first court case (although quite why they would do this I haven't worked out yet, leave it with me 🤣)! I don't really understand why they don't just prevent camping on their land, why try to affect the whole moor, that doesn't make sense, is it a power thing??
Anyway what is 'wild' or 'backpack' camping but outdoor recreation, it's certainly not indoor recreation and surely there are only two options here, indoor or outdoor????? (unless you are putting up new kit for the first time to see what it's like!). My concern is, as seemed to happen a bit after the DNPA won the appeal, that those people who didn't know you could before, suddenly go, 'oh goody, anyone can camp on Dartmoor' rush up onto the moor and don't comply with the (as you say) reasonable rules and it all gets messy and the moor damaged, a bit like what happened during Covid! The other thing that I keep thinking about is that people 'wild' camp all over the country quite happily abiding by the LNT rules and don't get into trouble, so even if the DW won (which I don't think they will, it's an election year (not sure what that's got to do with it really)) those of us who LNT will still be doing it, just not publishing our activities.
Personally I think change is in the air (I am a pessimist by nature normally but....) and the time will come in the not too distant future where England (and Wales) will enjoy more 'rights to roam' than we currently do, I cannot express why I think this, maybe because of the enmous interest and ourpouring of angst after the first court case, this won't be allowed to let lie, especially if they win the appeal.
Sorry I do find it difficult to be succinct, do like a good ramble (physical and verbal) 😉🤣🤣🤣. A postscript. Maybe they want to hold raves up on the moor and don't want us riff raff gatecrashing..... just a thought 🤣 Enjoyed this George as always. Thank you.
I hope you're right! Thank you again for watching!
Another great video thanks for sharing it.
I was watching it on a wild camp a slight segment may appear on one of my videoes in the background.
Would that be OK 👍🏻
Thanks again
Sure - no problem!
23:00 I assume this is in reference to the "dirty camping" during and just after lockdown. This was not wild campers.
Yes, I think so, though the Darwalls' lawyers are deliberately conflating these two things, I suspect! I mention this a bit in the first video I did on the topic back in 2022.
10:58 - As an Anarchist/Libertarian, I have to mention your sentence here doesn't quite make sense. You said:
"The Capitalist Conservatism of the Landowner vs. the Libertarian Anarchy of the wildcamper."
Anarchists/Libertarians are Capitalists, (see the famous Murray Rothbard quote: "Capitalism is the fullest expression of Anarchism") and believe in property rights and the protection of Landowners. Conservatives are not true Capitalists. They regulate markets. Of course we believe in Freedom too, but never at the expense of private property. While some of us have been friendly for a short patch with Conservatives (due to an enormous and dangerous resurgence of the Left after 2010), and some of us are against them, it is because they, like the Left are Statists, and require a State(Gov) and Taxation in order to function, whereas we do not.
Some of what you say has merit/validity though, bringing up Libertarians in connection to freedom of movement, etc. But as I say, never at the expense of violation of property. It is a controversial and complex situation, as when you dig deep you realise private property accounts for almost everything. Which means that our access to land if we don't own any is dependent on the generosity of some(not all, as you can see from the Darwalls) Landowners in creating public permissive sections of their land, or paid-entry land.
I thought someone might dig into that and pick it apart - but it sounded too good to leave out. Ha!
To clarify my meaning, I'm talking about ideology rather than politics (if the two can be separated), and am using the terms in their purest and simplest forms without political affiliation:
Libertarian anarchist - the spirit of wild camping is very much about personal freedom without doing any damage - the classic 'do what you will, but harm no one'.
Capitalist conservative (small c) - the spirit of the landowner (in this case) is about hoarding for personal gain with little thought for the effect on others and conserving the systems which permit this.
Thanks for the comment - gave me something to think about this morning.
Don’t mind about the camping but you should get a frolicking ban
Haha! I'd like to see it brought up as an example of 'open-air recreation' in the next instalment of the court case.
Greetings, sir, from “Elvis country”! The powers that be have an hierarchy that eventually leads to the head of all global authority (read the evil one), and individual independent happiness in the Creation is hated due to its fostering of focusing on our Creator. I’m sorry for being wordy. Here in America, if you’re the rugged, God-fearing, gun-toting, venison-eating, freedom-loving, thoroughly masculine (definitely not a fairy) type, the powers are struggling mightily against you. God will prove us right (deo vindice, the motto of the late, lamented Confederate States of America).
Don't suppose you are a Dartmoor yourself are you.
I don't live on the moor, but pretty nearby... if that's what you're asking!
@@thedartmoorpodcast mm merely wondering if you were related. Thanks
@@gwpattrick Ah - I see! The Walls are the goodies and the Dar-Walls are the baddies. Hope that clears things up 😂
Wikipedia paints a picture of Darwall as a loaded, entitled, Tory Brexiteer. My best guess is that he believes ownership ought not be accompanied by obligations. He seems to be cut from the same cloth as the unlovely J R-M's father with his belief that if you are wealthy enough you can do what you like without fear of the consequences - the notional "sovereign individual." Yuck.