Identity Politics: Lionel Shriver & Douglas Murray | The Spectator
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- čas přidán 29. 10. 2019
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Lionel Shriver & Douglas Murray tackle the topic of Identity Politics and talk about Douglas' new book, The Madness of Crowds: Gender, Race and Identity.
Buy Douglas' book here: www.spectator.co.uk/madnessofc...
or if you're in the US: www.spectator.co.uk/madnessofc...
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I'm black; I was born in England and grew up here. I have never viewed myself "as a black man" specifically or as a badge. I got dragged into some equality/diversity forums as a "token speaker" back in the mid '90s and I can honestly say I did not know what I was talking about and on reflection I feel very embarrassed about it. I HATE all this "woke" shit!
@Mario and you are a tit.
Love for ya mate I'm proud u feel like that! u Know I watch Boxing matches on youtube from b4 my time! Benn Eubank etc! u know Benn was a proud Union Jack waving Brit who fought like a lion and was in the army! He is a hero who done Britain proud!
@Mario No, didn't you read what he wrote: he was _born_ in England, that makes him a black British person. He wasn't born in Africa, he was born in Britian.
He'd only be an African-British if he migrated from Africa.
@Mario I've been on holiday to Tunisia and Morocco a few times - sadly that's the fullest extent of my familiarity with Africa; it felt quite interesting being somewhere where my colour was viewed differently to here in Britain. I also remember visiting the West Indies for the first time many years ago and seeing white people speaking in West Indian accents; confused the hell out of me! Having traveled to a number of different countries over the years, I've found myself quite fascinated by the different perspectives on race and culture in those countries.
Somebody called me a cis-male a while back; I chuckled because somehow I'd managed to survive all these years of my life without knowing that! I do think it's quite amusing (if maybe a little arrogant) of somebody to presume any sort of label or title for me without knowing very much about my background.
@Mario (Lovin' this!) I've done a lot of research many years ago and I was surprised to discover a long time ago from my grandparents that I have Dutch, Scottish and West African forbears and my relatives and their families hail from Canada, Australia, America and Germany so I feel quite blessed having such a varied international background.
As I said in my earlier comment, I do find it quite extraordinary when somebody presumes to tell me who I should be or what I should think. I certainly don't need to answer to some angry sounding person on the internet.
I know one thing; I'll probably still travel. You're right though, I should visit more of Africa (it's sooo big!) I've often thought of checking out Gabon or Kenya or Tanzania; they look really interesting places and definitely don't fit the annoying mainstream narrative of "poverty and instability".
I love how Lionel disagrees with Douglas and he just listens, accepts what’s being said and they move on. Sad that these days that’s so impressive!
I noticed that, too, and was very impressed with him. I like how she disagreed tactfully as well.
Yep, got that too. Very refreshing.
It's what grown ups do
It is _sad_ that a leftist is celebrated merely for _not_ being an intolerant and vicious arsehole, like the rest of their cult. So, she has retained the ability to have rational, reasonable and respectful debates. So what? She still voted for Hillary Clinton ("Vot for me, coz...I'm a woman! [and my husband's a rapist]), wants Trump out of office and subscribes to the same fundamental values. Her apparent reasonableness has nothing to do with virtue and everything to do with the sick nature of her ideology, resulting in yesterday's radicals being attacked by today's radicals. We've already seen it with Alan Dershowitz, Christine Hoff Sommers and Bret Weinstein. These people are the _progenitors_ of the concepts and attitudes that drive the SJWs and cultural Marxists of today. They are not victims, but perpetrators.
It's called active listening. Nowadays people interrupt, deny, belittle, ignore, get angry, attack, withdraw, personalise, misintetpret, judge etc Worse still because people don't like objectivity, they might even justify those behaviours because what they feel is more important than what you say.
Douglas is a gentleman of rare and extraordinary quality. He never feels the need to use his private personal life as a shield or to add any weight to his opinions. What a treasure.
I agree Douglas is a national treasure unfortunately unrecognised by many.
He's massive in homersexual community
@@daveerwin6981 quit being obsessed with your so called Community. Communitarianism is just another term for identitarianism. First learn to identify yourself as an individual, one who cannot be divided.
Laura Swartz well said Laura, wish people would stop doing that it’s almost as though they are saying you can’t admire Douglas Murray unless you are gay which is clearly ridiculous, firstly my own dad is gay and so such things matter to me in no way like MLK I prefer to judge someone on their character not on insignificant personal traits which the individual is born with. Except for overly high shrieking voices but that’s because it goes through me not because I dislike them for their high shrieking voice.
@@lauraswartz3781 he didnt even say it was his community, nor whether it was a good thing or bad
So pleased and grateful you uploaded this, wanted to be there but couldn’t. Speakers like Douglas Murray and Lionel Shriver help me to feel that I’m not going bat sh*t crazy in this increasingly insane society
Yes I totally agree
Great
Black Philip I’m beginning to think it’s out of “my” or any individual’s hands, it needs the electorate, if still viable, to vote in parties who will remove the identity politics and political correctness out of society, start to treat people as individuals again regardless of race, religion, age, gender, sex orientation etc , start to forgive each other, start to listen to each other again without judgement. That has to come with cultural change , it cannot be enforced by law, that is where madness lies and totalitarian government results.
Black Philip what do you think we should do?
Black Philip i totally agree with you, I was suggesting it as the gentle “hopeful” adult way of dealing with things, sadly we don’t have gentle adults in positions of power, we have bullies and extremists. I believe that it has gone too far to be able to resolve this without violence being part of the outcome. I do not condone violence but the minute you mention it, you are accused of inciting it..... it’s becoming a dangerous world. My yellow vest is in the wardrobe.
"You can't awaken someone who's pretending to sleep."
You should still kick them though.
"but you can draw penises on them"
It's funny how everyone within the political and philosophical spectrum uses that phrase these days.. :)
@@chrisc7265 Lol thanks, you made me laugh, and there's not much that makes me laugh these days. 😄👍🏽
A friend of mine has a facemask with a print comprised of penises; and as he points out, "If anyone is close enough to see what they are, they're not properly social distancing."
Douglas is in his prime now . Incredibly insightful on today's most important issues that affect western culture p
He's gonna be in his prime in the next 20 years at least..
The testopause will slowly affect him.
Im a big fan of Douglas Murray, but Lionel Shriver is incredible, this is the first time I have had the pleasure to listen to her.
Her novels are excellent too!
Him*
Brilliant - very reassuring to know there is some sanity in this world.
I wish I could mash the like button 10,000 times. I stood up at my desk and applauded at the end. NEVER STOP SPEAKING!!!
identity politics is a way to manipulate peoples' emotions and then shield stupid ideas from criticism. end of story.
These two people display considerable political courage in taking on these issues in a serious and intelligent fashion. Keep up the good work.
Daniel Huset very true
@Stirgid Lanathiel i only stated a function of it, not the reason for IPs existence. so really no disagreements, bud.
@Stirgid Lanathiel "White Supremacy" in a country founded by White people is an oxymoron.
Nations were established in order to obtain sovereignty, self-determination and their primary purpose is to protect and yes, privilege the people that founded them.
@Stirgid Lanathiel White is just a synonym for European, don't play dumb.
Racial identity is just the one overarching various ethnic identities.
Any nation's founders always have intention to secure existence and prosperity of "us and our posterity".
Should Poland be more interested in Polish people than any others on this Earth?
You have a completely skewed notion of racial identity. The problem is that only White people have managed to convince themselves that race is a meaningless concept, while everyone else drums their beats (e.g. South Africa and White farmers - if it was reverse it would be international scandal).
Lionel Shriver is absolutely brilliant.
Absolutely agree.
No surprise here, he got a male name!
What is brilliant about her, she is awful. I've never been so repulsed by someone in a long time. Though I did just get through with 'We need to talk about Kevin', so I have a good excuse And she's obviously a closeted lesbian, I mean good grief. I guess I'm not surprised that she's anti-woke. Which I am too, and which almost makes me feel bad about it. She just doesn't like it because it cramps her style. That's all she cares about. I was fascinated and horrified by the novel, and now seeing her in person I don't think I've ever witnessed such an unabashedly self-centered person, from every pore in her body. Every thought, every sentiment, every utterance, is what do I want, what suits me, what pleases me, what annoys me. She's almost infantile. I never thought I'd see a woman who could top Ayn Rand in that regard, but she might have pulled it off.
Anyway, I'm not a fan.
What a profoundly humane and meaningful discussion - I can't praise it highly enough. Thank you very much indeed, Lionel and Douglas.
Am seeing this 2 years late, but so glad to hear these two trade such important viewpoints, it's a relief to hear voices of sanity.
Whaaaat??? I didn't even notice I'm watching a 3 year old video!
@@bloodaid same. This video that says it’s about identity politics is actually about how socialists are actively weaponizing identity to destroy the system as we know it to usher in their Marxist utopia.
Shriver:
"Those who are oppressed have no reason to become unoppressed."
"The worst thing that can happen to any liberaton movement is getting what it wants."
This in the first six minutes!
Beautifully and succinctly put. She unfailingly puts her finger on the very essence of moral hazard and the flaw of the entire self-satisfied, parastic identity edifice, as if on a repulsive blue bottle emptying its guts onto your favourite farmhouse cheese and sucking up its fill without any appreciation of its provenance.
Lionel Shriver and Douglas Murray give me hope for the future.
I had the exact opposite response. "Those who are oppressed have no reason to become unoppressed." and then to argue that a if a charity cures the disease it 'represents' i then has to find some other way of still being relevant - I mean what utter nonsense. First recognise there is a disease and then what might cure it etc and yes if it is cured it may be hard for those involved in it all to still be relevant but these two are talking as if because of that possible negative outcome we should just allow that disease to cause all that suffering.
Point is racism and sexism ended at close of century. We've had black president and women millionnaires. What are they complaining about? Gays can marry now. They have everything now
@@daveerwin6981 "Point is racism and sexism ended at close of century."
Was it during the millenium celebrations exactly as the clocks struck 12?
@@dicksplat2049 Which one of them said that we should should just allow the "disease" and where exactly?
@@tubetorpedo At the beginning. I couldn't get through the rest. If someone wants to talk about the issue of minority rights and they don't first acknowledge the history and suffering that has been endured by said people to gain rights then it shows either casual bigotry/racism at worst or a callous disregard for said history.
Start with why these movements exist and recognise the history and need for such movements and who the oppressors were THEN you would move onto your argument that it has now warped into soimething else etc.
Had a lovely time at the talk, would happily attend more, bring them up North!
Agreed, there's an audience outside of London for this kind of debate, I wish they'd take stuff like this on the road. Enjoyed the talk.
I'll second that plea!
@@davidwalsh2008 I was able to see him talk when he was here in Auckland, New Zealand. It was the tour with Cornel West and not hugely interesting as a talk but I was already a huge fan. Douglas has a small but eager following over here. The state of our 'politics' over here is such that he would never be allowed back in the country as long as our un-elected PM is in charge.Since the Christchurch shooting, anyone right of Mao Tse Tung is being viewed with suspicion. It's utterly, totally ridiculous.
Haryan Gláeddyv Yes more Manchester venues
@jules valentine Sadly Manchester got the bug. 😕
This is the dream team. Two of the most eloquent thinkers of the present year. May their influence spread widely.
Had tickets for this event and absolutely gutted I couldn't make it. Love them both, they keep me sane.
Thoroughly enjoyed this. After reading The Madness of Crowds I find myself seeing the trans movement being pushed in all walks of life. It’s terrifying.
Black Philip pushed by the mainstream media, the left, the universities and schools, the so called elites. Control of speech and control of the way people think is ultimately very dangerous and we need to resist it.
NorCal OntheRight yes, mainly because other women vilify the women that do speak out as being transphobic and whatever other name they can come up with. I think men are just used to being hated at this point.
@NorCal OntheRight thats the point. Largely trans movement activists are men to women converts. These are the ones attacking women.. But as Lionel quite rightly pointed out, the real vociferous loud mouths are liberal, privileged often straight people, who feel a need to be heard and jump on the latest trend. I work with a young man, privileged, university graduate. He told me he's bisexual then said "I'm probably leaning more towards straight".
I mentioned this talk to him. Specifically about the cancel culture - Germaine greer being told she's not a feminist because she won't accept that men can't have babies and ergo can't have periods.
He SHRUGGED and looked at me as if to say... well you are wrong. Lmao.
I had to explain the whole trans process to him as he DOESNT know what it entails. But then followed it with, "I have a few trans friends". As if thats enough to QUALIFY him as RIGHT.
He attaches himself to every minority group he can, and advertises his own weaknesses and failings just like these two talked about, as if its enough in itself to characterize him.
He quotes everything he sees on Twitter as fact, and takes large amounts of his time to explain to me why HISTORICAL FACT is a lie.
This young man is UTTERLY BRAINWASHED, and genuinely believes everything he says to be true, moral, and right.
Its quite depressing how closed his mind is for such a young intelligent man.
But for the trans groups, women are their target because no amount of surgery or hormones will enable them to be women in the true sense of the word. Ie: motherhood.
It is a form of envy.
Its funny but so frustrating.
@@boudecia22 honestly i feel that ftm-trans people are far less active exactly because they're less visible in the first place. Men for the most part don't attack trans men in public discourse, discussions about bath rooms are almost exclusively about trans women, the fetishisation of trans people is mostly aimed at trans women and so on. Also, they often pass easier, which plays a part, too.
@@blackphilip8936 "And pushed by who exactly?"
By Leftist leaders, politicians and spokespeople, exactly.
"Who controls those information delivery systems? "
The Leftist Media, Leftist politicians, George Soros, the public government-run schools, teachers unions.
"And who benefits?"
Leftist organizations, Leftist fund raisers & donors, Leftist politicians and the government institutions they instigated and run, like planned parenthood. But the main goal is the destabilization of society, which pushes more power into the hands of Leftist politicians, elitist families and donors who's goal it is to destroy America and it's constitution, so that there will be no middle class, only extremely rich and extremely poor. Then depopulation, so that the world can be more easily managed by the Elite, with no challenge to their power.
Roughly translated and condensed, the west is going nuts 🥜
We always have been really, this is the latest form of our madness.
Going?
...going nuts 'by design'. !
Democracy is a lie. Nationalism with Socialist Health Care. End the Tech Monopolies.
@@autofill1566 Don't worry, it will. You might not like the way it does end, but it will end.
Shriver is absolutely nailing the "woke" thing here. Her take on the well-meaning but "misguided" young people wasting precious time while being spiritually 'non-nutritious" is exactly the way more of us should see it.
We need to talk about Lionel: she is a lioness!
Almost as good as Ann Coulter!
she's cool as fuck, innit?
She stiles me as a person who has arrived at a point in life where she is ready, willing, and able to make up her own mind and speak it clearly. A very attractive quality.
@@fredericstevens086 Well, there are some differences. Lionel Shriver: well thought-through arguments, respect to opponents... Ann Coulter: aggressivity, repetitiveness, narrow mind...
As to the line spoken by Lionel “ that’s because I’m brave , or because I’m stupid...”
I can tell you with certainty Lionel .
It’s because you are brave .
Thank you so much for speaking the things we all know to be true as Douglas says .
Douglas Murray is my favorite speaker and I’m glad I was introduced to Lionel by watching Mr. Murray .
Thank you both ☺️✌️
I came for Douglas but I stayed for Lionel! Wow
Douglas Murray's finishing remark is phenomenal!
This conversation is shockingly prescient considering what 2020 had in store for us.
Yes sadly.
'Don't agree to lies, and don't agree to things that are untrue ' Douglas Murray.
I'm glad someone finally worked out the connection between identity politics and marxism. Yes, that's what is was all about from the beginning. The working class failed you, so you use other tribes to gain political capital and overcome the system. We shouldn't be shy from making that clear and obvious connection.
One of the most profound conversations I have listened to in a wile. Definitely in the top 5 of 2019.
Thank you Spectator.
I’ll say it again & again that Douglas Murray is so delightful to listen to. What a great, great intellect & always humorous! He is the perfect combination. Lionel is just brilliant also. Only wish this could be broadcast on all the tv networks. What fools humans can be! It defies belief
Lionel Shriver and Douglas Murray a dream come true. More. Once a month or every week ... daily! Thank you!
"not knowing what you are talking about is a big assist for these people" -Lionel Shriver
Perfect question and observation from the man that grew up in Russia. He absolutely hit the mark. A perfect question and well answered. One of the best discussions I have listened to in 2020 so far.
“Choo Choo here comes the train analogy” I say as I realise I watched too much Douglas Murray on CZcams
Haha, when he spoke about gay hardware, I was anticipating 'Lady Gaga Born This Way' and along it came!
What a fantastic conversation. A great pair.
Thank you, Douglas!! Yes, let's get back to meaningful lives that create and not destroy!
would love to meet Lionel Shriver... The Kevin book is just out of this world...
Wow, Douglas you gave me hope that this can be turned around.
How? He never offers any real solutions, except to beg the left to "stop and think what they are doing", or something to that effect.
@@thunderstruck1078 I like Douglas a lot but you are right. He more just says we ought to be focusing on more meaningful things. He doesn't say how we'll get there.
@@LuisCarruthers This is what being a conservative should mean: czcams.com/video/ETe-fZFLkK0/video.html
@@LuisCarruthers Douglas is not the Second Coming. He doesn't have all the answers, nor should he. Stand up and speak out when you know something is false, or someone is hiding behind identity politics to further an agenda. Don't just go along to get along.
Do this in your immediate circles. If all of us did this, it would pop the bubble that the hard left is living in.
@@cdcaleo That's a good point. There isn't some magic answer. I felt bad when Lionel Shriver mentioned 'pregnant people'. Recently I was in a situation where I should have spoken out against that but didn't. It's not someone else's job.
Douglas, you are one of my favorite speakers. It is like laying bare my soul to listen to your thoughts and feelings on the importance of human traits and why , what , where they are going. We are losing our identity as human beings, a species that was given the gift of love , free thought and progressive intelligence. We know why it is happening and for the most part who is involved but it has gotten so massive and you express this loss in ways I feel but cannot express my fear and grief at losing that faith. It hurts, and I am not perfect but I saw tears in your eyes when you talked about how important truth was to you and I understand that.
Fantastic evening. I'm looking forward to similar events in the future.
Funny when Murray wraps his aversion to Islam and multiculturalism in intellectual jargon its OK....but when Tommy Robinson provides an rawer version its an criminal offense.
True. Robinson has been such a target. His appearance at the Oxford Union was very powerful.
Tommy Robinson believes in multiculturalism though. That what infuriates me about his supporters. They spend 90% of their time trying to convince lefties that they aren't racist rather than hammering home the point that by the end of this century white Brits will be a minority in their own country. So basically Tommy Robinson supporters are useless if they don't talk about this. What do you think Anthony ?
Tommy has the wrong accent. Sometimes uses the wrong words. Didn't go to university. The hate for Tommy is thinly disguised class hate.
They are both right!
@James Registe what an incredibly stupid comment
Douglas Murray is just an amazing commentator and speaker
I am so grateful for your talks. It is such a relief to listen to people of great intellect, and who are rational and down to earth.
Affirmative effort and professional ability not affirmative action deserves reward.
43:10: "But what they really want is more privilege for themselves. It is a kind of greed, because on top of having all the money and the great education and all the status, that's not enough for them; they have to have the moral high ground."
Absolutely perfect summary and, for me, a real wow moment. When Lionel said that, I just paused the video, sat back and let that thought sink in.
Words can't describe how amazing i found this talk
There is hope for all of us just listen to the common sense from these two brilliant ppl.
Thank you Douglas and Lional for an amazing adult discussion worth listening to.
It’s so wonderful to watch two people have a meaningful discussion. Brilliant talk!
Lionel might not be soft and passive but she sure is smart and razor sharp with her wit, in fact the verbal sparring between these two great thinkers is sublime to listen to.
Douglas ,you were a star on Radio Four this morning ,31st Oct; with Nick Robinson,you made my morning.x
I came for Douglas, but stayed for Lionel, what an inspiring person!
The voice of common sense. Nice to see this chap with a true English accent :)
So glad to finally see this!
Listening for second time. I love Lionel. And Douglas is a gem.
"Has its wicked cuttlefish way" ............ :) :) :)
Perfect analogy. Was spot on.
This was over three years ago! Still one of the best breakdowns of this jazz
It’s actually just scratching the surface
Thank you to Douglas and Lionel and the Spectator for a very interesting and entertaining discussion.
So good to hear this conversation going on in Britain.
Great conversation! Quite a few take-aways from this one! Both Douglas and Lionel are true gems, and are both inspirational to those of us who are doing what we can to reverse this societal atrophy. I speak up at every opportunity, without fear of opprobrium from the ignorant, and I never apologize for this amazing culture which gave us everything. I trust that people of morality and sound mind will overcome all fear and do the same. Of course, I always come back to the basic solution - we must home school our kids and raise rational, caring and grounded human beings. It's a daunting task, and there is not much hope for the present cult members, but over time evil never prevails.
I could never figure out Noam Chomsky and his uncritical opposition to his country, and then Lionel Shriver explained it perfectly: narcissism.
Émile Zola's J'accuse is probably one of the first examples of well known literature pointing out the insanity of groups.
How do we deal with this? Ridicule would be a start.
Close down most Universities.
Except S.T.E.M. . Liberal Arts is dead .
Stan - the nuttiness is creeping into STEM unfortunately. When they take over there it's all over
@@megmartel6005 So far , that pesky math is keeping them at bey , but the new trope " Math is racist " is catching on so you never can tell .
Angus McAngus , then the police comes to you for hate speech.
When the chappy asked a question about disenfranchisement, I loved how both Douglas and Lionel adjusted their seating positions and leaned in.
I wonder why not mention Heather Heying, Ayan Hirsi Ali, Debrah Soh etc. when talking about women in the IDW?
Thank you for this, I am so hungry now for other sane intellectuals from whom I may learn like Douglas and Lionel.
Lionel so quickly shot down his example of CH Summers that I don't think Douglas wanted to bother going down that line of argument, he probably thought it wouldn't be productive and Lionel had a point anyway. I agree re: those 3 though, they are IDW
First of all..a great enlighten discussion. Thank you. The closing remarks of Mr Murray was none other then a optimistic battle cry for a britghter future for our communities, nations and..us humans. Again thank you.. I apologize for my poor English
Do not ever apologize for "poor English". You do not owe the English speaking audience anything. In fact you should post in your native tongue. We have Google Translate.
Both are brilliant thinkers. Thank you for such an enriching conversation.
Two of my favorites together. Oh, this is too good to be true! Nancy Robertson
2 of my favourites - thank you for posting 😍
To Lionael and Douglas thank you so much both of you for this video and other efforts to bring common sense back into this world and by your efforts allowing society to overcome this 'madness' that has descended upon us by minorities. Totally agree with everything you say and was cheering and shouting "Yes" as I listen to you while painting a room.
Reupload with higher volume!! I've got mine on max and it's still low!
Yes, defineley Higher volume
Douglas never bores me for a second. He is spectacular. I adore his ideas and his manner.
Douglas please come to Toronto , Canada and do a talk.
"Let's get on with something meaningful." Here here.
Thank God for these conversations. Hard questions. Thoughtful & deeply engaging exploration by two brave people. Why is this so rare in our times? I think the metaphor for clearing a pathway for others is incredibly valid & exemplifies a great deal of humility because of the sacrifice & potential ridicule. Murray & Shriver point the way out, in their own way, as to how to get out from the Shadow of the Progressive Movement. What was once an honest, respectable attempt at shedding light on lesser-known voices and perspectives has blown out into what has been rightly coined the Oppression Olympics. Differences between races, class & the sexes should be explored, embraced and appreciated, not weaponized. Keep up the great work & God Bless & protect.
This was extraordinary, and thoughtful. It feels like nothing has changed in the last two years.
I enjoyed this. Well done Spectator
I live in a State where the thought of wearing MAGA hat or putting a MAGA bumper on my car dangerous! Scared..no...just don’t want my vehicle damaged or have to protect myself with force.
youtube is sabotaging this discussion. I have had an ad about every 5 minutes. After the 10th I am having trouble loading it
It’s not CZcams it’s The Spectator
Skip it right to the end and then replay it. Ad free! 😉
@@roryspeirs6881 really? I'll try it out.
@@roryspeirs6881 Holy cow, it works! Tyvm Rory.
Look into using Brave internet browser.
This was exceptional, thank you!
She's like a female Harrison Ford....too cool
Return Of The Op Ed Guy.... Gal?
OK, so how do we make sure our children still have a place to call home?
Give them a home, and teach them well.
In an ideal world: promote the values of all nationalities and cultures then offer voluntary repatriation.
Write down your address and telephone number then give it to them .... duh.
@@whiterationalism4253 It's easy to say that, but how do we get there?
I like how no one bought Murray is anti all this ID politics. Rather he is a White racist just like you. Superb!
Brilliant conversation!
Excellent lecture. Very warm and compassionate. Greatly appreciated.
Such a rare treat to hear two incredibly astute and articulate voices on the madness of these dangerous, modern phenomenon of identity politics. I totally agree with Douglas's point about the phrase "saying this as a..." People are always starting sentences with this ridiculous opening statement.
Loved it. Love you both. Thank you.
always on your side Murray!!
Douglas is right. Demoralisation is the goal.
I’ve got a crush on Douglas, even if he is British.
He is Homosexual ,sadly for us Women lol.
Douglas summed up at the end perfectly.
Great conversation. Are very welcome piece of content. Thank you.
Amazing stimulating conversation! I have admired Douglas Murray for sometime now. I am gratified to meet Lionel Shriver in this event-a rare equal verbally and energetically to Murray.
Most excellent interview, several important descriptions of what Identity Politics, especially Douglas Murray's summary in the last couple of minutes.
Spectator: When you upload these, can you increase the output-volume a bit? I can hear it when nearby my computer, but these discussions are excellent things to have on in the background.
Our western culture has been descending into matriarchy. The over-concern for the victim is a feminine perspective. The idea that we live in a patriarchy is dripping with irony.
DESCENDING into matriarchy? Don’t we wish! I support the push back against identity politics, but no, patriarchy continues.
nope, because that has to do with different issues/variables. you will see a decrease in women killings when you: improve education, devrease poverty, teach women to use guns and be very aware of danger at any time
@who up Many men killed everywhere every week in many and various circumstances. When you're killed, you're dead. All lives matter. We can't dissect and prioritise one group over another, as if one group is better and more privileged.
A matriarchy would be disastrous. I notice feminists always banging on about "gender pay gap" - deliberately ignoring hours worked & time off (maternity leave etc). By law you can't pay one sex more than the other for the same work & hours. Women work less hours & do different jobs. They also want "gender equality" - more women on boards & senior positions, preferring quotas to merit. I don't see them advocating for equal representation in labouring/ ditch digging. Socialists attach the word "equality" to anything to get people to agree to their madness. Most people at university now are women. This push for all women into tertiary education & full-time work, as well as delaying/omitting childbirth will be the end of Western civilisation. Others will out breed us, especially since we are bringing in the 3rd world by the millions. Our elites have no more use for their huge middle class & seem to be going out of their way to destroy us. No monarch of old would allow millions of foreigners into their country.
The second statement you made is quite false. One empirical refutation would be that female judges tend to hand out stricter sentences, particularly when the defendant is female. I don't think you can ever be too concerned about a true victim, so you are wrong there. But what you might have meant is this: we should not overextend the definition of "victim" to include people who are not really victims. And that is definitely happening nowadays.
Let’s get on with it! Incredible conversation
Goodness, two adults who discuss contentious issues, disagree, and move on with grace and elegance, instead of try to shut each other down with vitriol and personal attacks. Excellent discussion about complex issues by two adults who have their heads screwed in right.
Any chance you'd just go ahead and re-upload this video today? We need this now.
That was 1.5hrs brilliantly spent!!! I so needed to hear this as I am one of the "disillusioned & dejected" so sick of having this woke crap and virtue signalling stuffed down my throat.
The very opening of the conversation, Lionel absolutely NAILS the issue with wonderful precision. I am looking forward to Douglas having a conversation with a not only a rational person, but intelligent one as well.
EDIT: @1:01:50 mark, Lionel gives us a brilliant line of how all of this is "spiritually un-nutritious".... spectacular!
Lionel Shriver is brilliant. I didn’t know of her until tonight.