Post Office 'knowingly withheld' defence evidence from sub-postmasters | Forensic Auditor
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- čas přidán 8. 01. 2024
- "Documents were being withheld from sub-postmasters that were relevant to a criminal prosecution."
The Post Office "knowingly withheld" relevant defence evidence from sub postmasters, forensic auditor Ian Henderson who investigated the company in 2012 tells #timesradio
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Fujitsu allowed people to log onto the systems and make amendments, but no record of what the changes were was kept? That process would not pass even a basic audit. That's insane.
If somebody logs in and makes amendments to a file, then there is a digital footprint. I do not believe for a second that there were no records of this.
They may have been erased after the event, but there would be a footprint.
I am fairly certain that under CASS regulations that this is illegal.
@@Rasscassethe transaction would have been logged, but under the sub postmaster’s ID, so you cannot distinguish between a “real” transaction and a manipulated one.
@@Rasscasse I work in banking for 30 years and you need to remember that what you know of technology today, does not mean it was available 20 years ago. Its easy to say XYZ but 20 years ago, there was not the massive network bandwidth we have today nor the storage for all these logs and micro transactions, yes there may have been some basic logging, but not to the extend we have today. So that was the case in Banking 15-20 years ago, so this would have not been any different. You also need to remember that ICL (not Fujitsu) built this for their customer so they of course would have given the PO HQ access.
@@theoppositeopinion9290 There would have been the ability to keep a record of what transactions happened, otherwise the system would have been fundamentally unsafe. Any accounting system that doesn't record who did what transactions is basically fraud waiting to happen. It's not a matter of bandwidth, it's a matter of the necessary things for a transaction to happen and be confirmed in the system.
There is an absolute obligation on prosecutors to disclose anything which supports the defence or, more importantly, undermines the prosecution. Failure to so is an offence
Now whoever did that needs to be in court. We can not allow people to make those decisions and get away with it because it's business.
The ‘no evidence of theft’ report is exculpatory evidence that was knowingly withheld from the defence (Jo Hamilton) and was an act of perverting the course of justice. In spite of knowledge of this report the Post Office pursued a criminal prosecution and knowingly committed perjury. By using threats of imprisonment the Post Office forced Jo Hamilton to pay them over £36,000 and this is tantamount to involving the legal system in an act of extortion with menaces. The level of damage done to so many innocent people will result in compensation payments running into the hundreds of millions of pounds.
It should be well over a billion.
It just gets more and more insane
I agree…if an established institutional organisation can’t invest and roll out effective software for its employees to use…I’m kinda thinking - a nuclear deterrent is quite complicated isn’t it? What chance do we have? Or maybe that’s the point - something isn’t right..! 😇
this scandal just keeps on giving... time for some people at the post office to try a dose of their own medicine and face prosecution.
The principle of revealing to a defendant any material that tends to assist in their defence or that tends to undermine the case of the prosecution is absolutely fundamental to criminal justice. From top to bottom the prosecutions of those sub-post masters are textbook examples of how NOT to investigate and prosecute crime. Absolutely shocking that nobody has ever been held to account!
Keyword here is "private" prosecution
@@josephjones1093Are you saying that private prosecutions have different evidential rules?
@@garymitchell5899 yes
@@josephjones1093 ok that's interesting. For example is there no obligation on disclosure?
@@josephjones1093 "A private prosecutor must maintain the same standards of conduct as a public authority, including a duty of full and frank disclosure"
Oh dear, are you an armchair lawyer, Joseph?
At last the pertinent questions are being asked. If the Post Office were witholding evidence there should be arrests; if Fujitsu employees were altering subpostmasters' accounts there should be arrests. Let's see - for once - justice being done.
@@Julie-wx2gf Because the police & the CPS have a duty to do so if the evidence warrants it.
@Julie-wx2gf The woman on the helpline was not a party to what was happening in Fujitsu's secret room, where programmers were (it is alleged) exploiting the backdoor in the software to alter subpostmasters' figures, even maliciously, as in the case of the union official.
With holding evidence? What on Earth were they thinking?! 😡
It gets worse and worse - thank goodness for the TV programme that exposed the lack of integrity and lying!!
Perverting the course of justice is absolutely evident if such documents have been withheld that could have exonerated the accused and to knowingly do so is criminal and evil . Someone knew this intimately and that person or persons should be arrested and charged .
Someone at the Post Office should go to prison for this abuse of power and right of the Post Office to carry out criminal prosecution should end immediately
Perverting the course of justice. Prison time is justified.
The person who authorised the help desk to say, you are the only one, needs to be in jail.
Jail .... People need to go to jail for this .... right up as far as this goes !
It just gets more and more disgusting. There should be a lot of people very nervous right now waiting for Plod’s knock on their door. Whether there will be given the level of people being talked about… we’ll no doubt see..
The more we hear the worse it gets for the Post Office and the top officials. Not just the Board but the legal team too! The government are going to have to build another prison to hold them all!
What was the judge for the case against Jo thinking when they went ahead and prosecuted Jo without having looked at the investigators report? This sounds like a rubber stamp court for the Post Office. Does that very judge today even know what they did and have any remorse for it?
The barrister working for the post office made the claim in court that the post office never had this report and it was owned by third-party . The contents of this report were not known at the time to the defence or the judge .
Because it was allegedly owned by third-party the judge did not have the power to order its release however it turned out that the post office did have a copy of this report .
Not only did they lie to the judge they had also lied to their own barrister who later wrote a letter to the court explaining how he had also been deceived
Sacking your 'independent' forensic auditor, at the point when they find a problem, is simply appalling behaviour. Knowingly withholding documents pertinent to a defence case, has to lead to legal representatives being struck off, or charges of perverting the course of justice!
When you take in what is or has been done, is how can you terminate people from an independent, who has found that the system is corrupt.
I don't want to detract anything from this but everyone knows evidence has been knowingly withheld. All the public are waiting to find out is how many millions is each postmaster going to get from Fujitsu and Paula, who is going to prison, and how long for.
How morally bankrupt do people have to be to only care about convicting someone rather than the truth? Only those with no principles would withhold exculpatory evidence in order to convict someone they know is likely not guilty. The accountant says there was no reliable audit trail yet they continued to prosecute.
It's because the management paid them bonuses for obtaining a guilty charge. They caused it.
@@andrewoliver8930 I'm pretty sure I wouldn't ignore evidence of innocence just for a bonus. Not saying I'm a moral person, just that I wouldn't risk years in prison just for a nice little wedge.
I don't think they could individually list items. Apparently accounts and spreadsheets are automatically taken as correct and have been for years by the courts. They are quite often wrong as highlighted in this case.
ONE OF THE MOST CONCERNING FACTORS IS THAT WE WERE LOOKING TO THE JUDICIARY TO RESTORE ETHICAL FAITH IN THE UNITED KINGDOM FOLLOWING DISASTROUS AND CATASTROPHIC GOVERNING.
So Angry at these criminals .
Every new piece of information about this case is more shocking than the last. What sort of country do we live in that this can happen and multiple times. The courts and the justice system are equally to blame
Those employees at Fugysui were authorised by someone at their company to go in via a back door to change data. That would under normal circumstances be called Hacking and an offence in itself
Not necessarily. It's just as likely someone at the PO logged in remotely. I'd say fujitsu's internal processes would be far more robust than the PO.
This wasn't back-door-hacking, it was firefighting a system that wasn't fit for use. THis has happened in nearly every large goverment deployment, The differece here is the PO decided not to sack Fujitsu and claim back the cash, but to on one hand sanction changes via remote login, and in the other prosicute the innocent. At the end of the day, who was making the decisions, and why are then no in jail.
You have no evidence of that other that what's in your mind. PO HQ wanted and had remote access and were knowingly accessing the system. The IT company cant be held to account if the PO HQ (the IT companies customer) misuses that technology. If you go down that route then every company is liable for anything and everything in the IT world, no matter what service they deliver
The more we hear, the more the word systemic comes to mind. There is much we still need to learn. Who tampered with the accounts, what changes were made and what links, if any, exist between the people involved in adjusting the accounts and the people bringing the prosecutions. There must be an audit trail of who did what.
This is the sort of mischief in prosecutions the Criminal investigations and Procedure Act 1996 was supposed to prevent. The Post Office rode roughshod over the act, ignoring and suppressing exculpatory material when it inconveniently came to life. Heads will roll I hope.
This is actually mental
The thing that has struck me about this whole debacle is that the Post Office 'prosecutors' didn't seem to need to prove that the postmasters/postmistresses actually had the 'missing money' - how can you prosecute someone when you have no proof that they have the money - e.g. by looking at bank accounts or changes in lifestyle. - Did the judges not query that?
We need a forensic audit of the finances of people that initiated the installation of the Horizon system. Exactly who gained what, other than a CBE, in this travesty of justice.
Gosh So angry at these criminals.
What about the PO auditors, they must have questioned where the ‘extra’ money was coming from to increase the bottom line. What is the total sum of the extra payments?
That is a very good point. Additional money will have been appearing but if they relied on the figures generated by the Fujitsu software then it would have balanced. What they needed to look at was the audit trail generated by the software. It seems this forensic auditor was starting to do this and found problems, which the post office withheld from the defence. Who would have thought that computer software might have bugs in the software...!
Just another Public Sector, given away to whom, and by whom, who's next
No one will be jailed…..except the little people of course
Well Paula isn't very big is she. Maybe 5ft if she's lucky and 8 stone. Could she possibly be prosecuted as one of the little people?
Did the auditor not have at least a moral if not a legal obligation to reveal this at the time? He's not very convincing tbh.
The very fact that the historical status of the Post Office meant that they could act , in effect , as their own police force and judicial system was big trouble. It was an accident waiting to happen. The Post Office did not see itself as accountable and became a arrogant monster. It could do things in ways that even the police could not. They are also a monopoly in their area. This meant there was very little keeping them on their toes. Not only could they feel they were a law unto themselves , they actually WERE a law unto themselves. People need to understand that this is about a gross failure in organisational culture and structure that goes back many decades , maybe even centuries. No organisation should be allowed to act like a pseudo police force and CPS and prosecute cases against its own staff with no independent scrutiny. Make no mistake. This is not about Paula Vennells or any other individuals. This happened on the Government’s watch and with both Parties. The entire structure of the Post Office needs ripping up and starting again. Unfortunately this will probably not happen because the public will become obsessed with their need to see “ evil “ individuals put in the stocks and shamed , as if this will solve the problem. It won’t.
The question of private prosecutions.
1. We still need them
2. We need to stamp out the abuses.
The reason we need them is when the state fails to prosecute.
The abuse is the state failing to prosecute. That's when it abdicates responsibility, as in this case, and when it takes over to protect the guilty because they are one of us.
Don't forget that the CPS was created to separate the investigation and prosecution power of the police. Here we see why that is important...
@@adenwellsmith6908 I do agree , but if we are ever going to get to the bottom of this then we , as an entire nation , have to take a good look in the mirror and a good look at the Post Office structure that has evolved over more than 100 years. Monsterous organisations will always create monsterous results. Ultimately it’s not about demonising individuals. That’s the easy way of dealing with it. The real question is , what is it about the U.K. that allows organisations like this to flourish ?
One thing I don't understand - If this gentleman knew this evidence was being withheld and hence an offence was being committed, was there no way he could have reported that in some way to the authorities?
I wondered this too.
Maybe he was not permitted to disclose anything under his work contract. Maybe he had to sign a nondisclosure agreement.
Nice. Turn up the heat.
The "Post office" can't withhold anything! Only living people can do this, so hold the individuals who withheld this to account as we common folk would.
_Fujitsu were not tracking changes to data??_ This is fundamental to accounting systems and any decent database can give you what transactions were made from, for example, transaction logs and the like. This stuff has been around for decades. This should have been a bright red flag from the beginning and whoever allowed this design flaw should be put up against a wall.
The first responsibility of a lawyer is to the court. If a lawyer knowingly withholds any fact or information that is material to a case then he or she is actively misleading the court.
Since the enquiry started i have been amazed how poor the PO staff witnesses have been.
Its clear some are over promoted and are absolutely clueless..
Looking forward to hearing from the more senior staff who led the cover up...
Hold to account means, arrest charge try and jail if found guilty.
Jail time for many people if there is any justice
The old school tie network will do all it can to prevent this happening to any real public satisfaction. Thousands of victims and 25 odd years of destroying lives till they are utterly ruined will be seen as less of a detriment to society than someone who refuses to pay for a TV license
Having been following the inquiry, the incompetance of the investigators in terms of potential breaches of PACE 1984, RIPA and CPIA 1996 is astounding😮😮😮😮
Same here Paula. Anyone with the basic training in criminal investigation gets disclosure drummed I to them. Lawyers and investigators who deliberately ignore their obligations should be prosecuted.
If this took place in the USA, the group damages bill would in the ten figures region?
All this is just HORRENDOUS TO HEAR HOW DISHONEST THESE PEOPLE (at the top of the Post Office) WERE.
Jesus… this just gets worse & worse!
The whole point of an accounting system is that entries are made in "ink". You can reverse an entry by making an opposite entry, then booking the new correction. ie. 3 pairs of entries.
You do NOT change the original entry. That's for a computer system and for a paper based system.
Remote access so programmers could steal money. Why is Fujitsu not being investigated.
One word for it...... Fraud!!
Dear non technical nor service background people and the 12 people that liked your comment. Remote access into Infrastructure to the Client is very very typical in every industry. Your assumption about programmers stealing money is simply hysterics with Zero thought and Zero evidence. The remote access if you listen and read the facts was for the PO, not Fujitsu programmers. If you are saying any programmer that wrote the remote access and that practice should not be allowed, then I am afraid the whole internet and ANY business would not work and I mean everything would not work, emails, banking, shopping, book a holiday. GET A GRIP AND DEAL WITH FACTS not drama
@@theoppositeopinion9290 Yes, remote access is common, but not while using other people's IDs and not without leaving a data modification trail. Horizon appears to have shockingly bad access control and poor data monitoring. That is more the point.
@@philthrelfall5294 I get you, but if there is no trail, then why are people knee jerking like this poster, making assumptions it was Fujitsu with no evidence and not the PO HQ, who have admitted remoting in.
@theoppositeopinion9290 I think because all the evidence points to Fujitsu having the facility to manipulate sub-postmaster data, backed up by whistle-blower evidence. It should not have been possible to do this, without leaving a data audit trail.
There must have been a motive for this horrible behaviour: presumably someone, or several people, stealing money from the PO and wanting local post office managers to take the fall? Who stood to gain?
Like captain of an aircraft and the captain of a ship they are absolutely responsible for their vessels and the safety of hundreds of people. A CEO of a company has the same level of responsibility. If something goes wrong they are still responsible. It's not the cabin crew or the boiler stoker. It's the top person.
The sub-postmasters deserve justice and the public will demand justice. No matter how they are coached to avoid prosecution the book must be thrown at them.
I can't believe everyone is so surprised it's been going on for years in a lot of big companies
Can anyone explain how the 'error' appeared and what did it actually did it edit to make it looked like theft?
What he is saying here is, after the computer fault identified the money missing, the post office then found it wasn't missing but instead of admitting that, still prosecuted people. That's where we are at
Sorry I should have mentioned, they knew it was wrong and deliberately after the fact, changed the numbers to infact make it look like money was missing, when they knew it wasn't, all to strengthen the case to prosecute post masters
My guess? Lot of other entities with remote access to Post Office IT systems (the Post Office is a SIGINT capability by definition) and one of these, which would not have been visible to Fujitsu. Why? Put pressure on Fujistu. Pretty useful leverage. Do what we say or your company gets destroyed. This is business as usual for UK intelligence services and Post Office has been a SIGINT/COMINT capability for 300 years. The 'computer error' story is obviously a smokescreen.
@@kesamek8537 meh it was happening for years and this story was pretty big even 10 years ago, its not a conspiracy of that type
Private eye and Computer weekly publicized this in 2011!12 and no other paper / broadcaster else said a word.
This is perfect ammunition for anybody that feels they are being forced to ‘engage’ with technology and software that might not be as secure as more traditional methods, Pens Pencils and Paper Trails are much more effective…it shouldn’t take any institutional authority or organisation 20 years to deal with what is being described as an IT issue effectively and if it does…then that institution is either corrupt or it’s protocols are flawed..! 😇
Sacked? for what?,that says it all.
Criminal prosecutions are needed.
Several very senior people and those who lied will face jail time, and no question they are in very serious trouble. This cannot and must not be brushed aside.
anyone who withheld the information should be charged with perverting the course of justice as anyone else in this country who did that would be and has been charged in the past
None of the perpetrators concerning the postmaster prosecutions scandal will be held to account…….GUARANTEED!
So what if they did withhold evidence, nothing will come of it anyway. These people have immunity from prosecution.
My problem is this. I doubt anyone goes to jail over this.
It begins to make you wonder was the money being stolen by who......
There are going to be former data clerks/ admin staff from Fujitsu who are petrified…. They need to be protected so that those who instructed them and set out their governance are punished. If not the opportunity to catch the big first Fujitsu and the Post Office will be missed.
Total cover up 🤬
Seriously a lawyer would advise the ' Post Office ' bosses to plead guilty to what they are alleged to have done. My advice to them would be ' PANIC ! "
Redundancy payments....One way of cutting staff without paying out all that money.
And now the inquiry finds that the PO and Fujitsu have withheld evidence from them too 😮
What would have prevented this monstrosity was a ‘CLASS ACTION‘ Lawsuit, right from the beginning! The individual Postmasters should have contacted each other. If the POL said that others were not having problems, then a consultation with each other would have been helpful, whatever the case might be. The Postmasters were too passive and accepting. As a class, they could have objected to the Post Office investigating itself. That is a rarity in a democracy. The US brings in SPECIAL PROSECUTORS all the time.
With the greatest respect to The Times - he doesn’t have to “name names” - why doesn’t The Times spend a few hours watching the evidence and videos that you can find here on CZcams from the Horizon IT Inquiry ? All those PO lawyers and investigators gave their “evidence” (such as it was) during 2023. Its all been there - a halfway decent journalist could look at this themselves
i keep thinking why did no one question the amount of people involved, over 700 ? that amount sounds like they would all have to be part of a larger conspiracy which would make no sense, 700 + all committing the same crime and no one thought it was strange ! 🤔 i know someone dragged down by all this and she will never recover, everyone who knows her knew she wasn't guilty, the Scottish Government is looking at Pardoning them all, why not just find them Not Guilty ? a Pardon does not show guilt or innocence
The two words Post Office, are tarnished for ever. This is entirely their own fault in pursuit of greed. Thank goodness Mr Bates who was able to raise the number to over 500. If you have not watched the drama by now, then you must.
«The computer says» you should go to jail.
The Corruptocracy strikes again.
The more you hear, the worse it gets.
Well done Ian.
The right man at the roght time. I expect the Post Masters are beyond greatful for you efforts to date.
I bet there are a few high ups in the post office thinking of taking early retirement today !!!!!!!!!
Why weren't the PACE interviews recorded!
This is absolutely amazing. The implication here is scary; the PO legal department is committing a crime on behave of the sovereign using taxpayers money !!
Do not forget the head of the Post Office for the government was ED DAVEY it was his ministerial responsibility, Cameron it was his government they all need to be looked at. Disgraceful, disgusting, the MPs get elected and just sign documents for their tenure and think it is enough.
So why didn't you stick to your guns and get it in the media? If the guy found the evidence, why did he let it get swept under the rug?
Even if this is true, those people who committed these crimes can't be prosecuted because of the Statute of Limitations. In other words, they committed the crimes too long ago.
Nope not correct. To this day they withheld evidence.
I don't believe we have a statute of limitations in the UK.
They're both just repeating themselves and the auditor is very short on details.
So now we need to know who has the missing money?
ICL (a.k.a. Fujitsu) have potential to be investigated as co-conspirators in this scandal. From personal experience of this company, I most strongly suggest that ICL/Fujitsu aren't taking anywhere enough fire to explain their business practices. That's just my personal opinion, but is based upon what might be considered, certain unscrupulous behaviours, I personally witnessed. Not to mention their dubious relationship with government. Another public enquiry is certainly warranted.
Perverting the course of justice. Hope they've put their affairs in order.
There is plenty of evidence. The police need to proceed and charge the individuals involved starting at CEO level
The more you hear about this case the worse it gets. How vcan you hold a postmaster to account for a system that has a back door where accounts can be changed by others??
I am Very Afraid that So many WHO are Guilty in this Case ( Management ) Will Not suffer the Consequences of their Appalling Actions
Seems like Fujitsu need to have their other contracts suspended pending investigation and all any profits held in a holding account until investigation is concluded.
When will the Solicitors Regulation Authority publish the Names of all solicitors working at and for the Post Office during this period ?
In Bracknell, there was a team working on the accounts. People. Why has no one asked for their names, and actually asked them what went on, what they did???
The people responsible for this who worked in the post office at this time will im sure go to prison its only a matter of time and its fast running out.
In the time this was happening the post office was changing their procedures of making postmasters redundant and franchise sub office in shops reason being subpostmasters received a wage get rid of the postmaster you don't pay redundancy
Its not only the PO that has been put into disripute but the whole legal system. I always thought that soli8citors where supposed to be honest it just shows what can happen when they are dishonest.
Are there restrictions on high Def cameras and mics in the UK?
Who benefited from the other side of the errors - the suspense account surpluses? Were they involved in the decision to suppress information from defendants?
I think this happened for a reason get rid of subpostmasters you don't pay redundancy someone in the hierarchy in the post office new what was happening
Like a batch of Whats app messages in Covid inquiry. Messages vanish lol